#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2014-05-24

whitequarkcool hack: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23758875/capture-image-via-capturestillimageasynchronouslyfromconnection-with-no-shutter10:44
DocScrutinizer05just about the signature, in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1426293&postcount=81  >>"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer<<  and the link in it --  awesome!! :-D12:21
DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kay_Sievers&direction=prev&oldid=602757571  LOL12:32
DocScrutinizer05http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html12:33
DocScrutinizer05HAIL Linus!!!!12:36
DocScrutinizer05(sorry for this being a rather bad term in German, I'm not tainted by that bad history of it)12:37
pcercueithat's not a bad term12:37
DocScrutinizer05yeah I know, the spelling is "Heil"12:38
DocScrutinizer05anyway I rather make that clear immediately that it's not "Heil" but hail12:38
DocScrutinizer05I only wish he also had mentioned Poettering in very same mail12:39
DocScrutinizer05I guess I now have to send a crate of good bavarian beer, or a bottle of old Scotch, or whatever to Linus. He earned it since long, and now for sure12:40
DocScrutinizer05I hope for GKH educating those 2 guys for good, giving them a proper shouting12:43
DocScrutinizer05~freee12:44
infobotfreee is probably http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZTdUmlGxVo0&t=329612:44
DocScrutinizer05~poettering12:44
infobot'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering''12:44
DocScrutinizer05~part12:44
DocScrutinizer05~part #qi-hardware12:45
infobotLeaving. (courtesy of docscrutinizer05).12:45
DocScrutinizer05note who created https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kay_Sievers12:46
DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kay_Sievers&action=history12:47
sb0_now is a good time to bring up the topic of electric charge again12:51
DocScrutinizer05why? do you feel you're charged too much, or inb need of charging?12:51
DocScrutinizer05and what charge are you referring to? the charge of a battery, a capacitor, or the electron charge of an object in empty space?12:53
DocScrutinizer05or do you refer to a special method to do financial transactions to accounts in fiscal domain?12:54
DocScrutinizer05oh, that would probably be "electronic charge"12:55
DocScrutinizer05or maybe that's a particularly cruel new punishment?12:56
DocScrutinizer05~dict charge12:58
infobotDictionary 'charge' (2 of 46): (criminal law) a pleading describing some wrong or offense; "he was arrested on a charge of larceny"  ;; 2. That particular kind of commission which one undertakes to perform.12:58
DocScrutinizer05~part #qi-hardware12:58
infobotLeaving. (courtesy of docscrutinizer05).12:58
DocScrutinizer05https://www.change.org/petitions/lennart-poettering-stop-writing-useless-programs-systemd-journal13:15
DocScrutinizer05#4 Wolfgang Draxinger  hits the nail on the head13:16
pcercueifrom Munich, Germany13:18
DocScrutinizer05I really wonder what strange nature of mind Lennart must have to ignore and seemingly even enjoy all the flaming and shrug away all the highly qualified on-topic criticism13:18
DocScrutinizer05pcercuei: so what?13:18
pcercueithat's my city13:18
DocScrutinizer05aaah13:18
pcercueiis all I'm sayin13:18
DocScrutinizer05one of the foundation rules of unix been "no binary config/log/whatever files. Everything is plain human readable asci. A computer more easily parses plaintext than a human parses binary"13:21
pcercueibinary logs are a thing?13:22
DocScrutinizer05another paradigm been: "every tool does just one thing, and it does that one thing proper and in a way so it can get combined with other tools"13:23
dos1systemd-journal uses binary logs13:23
DocScrutinizer05see "unix toolbox"13:23
dos1for instance13:23
pcercueiouch... I didn't know that13:23
dos1I like some of systemd's ideas, but that one for sure is completely retarded13:24
pcercueiyes13:24
pcercueibut is systemd a huge blob, or rather modular?13:25
DocScrutinizer05just to have some fun, do `systemctl --help`. On my system it invokes $PAGER !!!13:25
DocScrutinizer05If I want to have that shit in $PAGER, I use `man systemctl`13:26
DocScrutinizer05--help is explicitly NOT meant to invoke interactive pager or whatever13:26
DocScrutinizer05--interactive13:26
DocScrutinizer05and then "?" - that could do $PAGER alike display of embedded help13:27
DocScrutinizer05outright nuking /usr concept is another example why poettering is a jackass13:28
DocScrutinizer05/usr is from a time when computers had small storage, like 10MB HDD, and you were happy to have everything that's not needed for boot on a separate volume. Poettering shrugs that away and says it's "not modern anymore [SIC!]", completely failing to realize that embedded more and more becomes a mere linux domain and there we NEED that concept again13:30
DocScrutinizer05poettering is doing a sneaky fork to linux13:32
DocScrutinizer05into poettering flavor that comes with all sorts of abominations that speed up boot by 20% or allow inuktitut text2speech in login screen, but sacrifice all compatibility of system to anything not ISA, and a pure linux flavor that goes untainted by poettering & friends and slowly bitrots13:34
DocScrutinizer05and he blackmails all community to go his way and fix all their apps to work with his crappy new stuff13:37
DocScrutinizer05you know, a 15 years ago you basically could port arbitrary linux programs to AIX, SunOS, HPUX, whatever you like, simply by recompiling them. Nowadays you can't port a poettering-linux app to a non-poettering linux system13:39
DocScrutinizer05but again, Mr Poettering despises Unix compatibility considerations, he thinks "that's not mature"13:40
dos1^^^ that's why I'm sad with Debian choosing systemd as default in jessie :(13:40
dos1despite of ther fact I'm using it on my Debian already13:41
dos1s/ther fact/the fact that/13:42
DocScrutinizer05I wish M$ was a soviet company, then the NSA already had kidnapped Mr Poettering, transported him to some Albanian prison and tortured him to disclose how much M$ is paying him for sabotaging linux13:43
DocScrutinizer05or s/NSA/<whatever TLA agency you like>/13:44
DocScrutinizer05CIA, DOD13:44
dos1completely random OT thought: I just realized why english W is pronounced as it is13:49
dos1never thought about it as "double u"... it was just a not explained "dablyoo" for me for whole my life13:49
dos1mind blown... sorry, had to share that discovery somewhere :D13:50
DocScrutinizer05BWAAAHAAAARRHARRRRRHAAAAAHAAAHARRRRR! https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589#c413:52
dos1and I came to it thanks to "In English, WWW is the longest possible TLA to pronounce, typically requiring nine syllables." - I started to wonder why for me it seemed more like six syllables ;)13:52
DocScrutinizer05george double-who bush? ;-)13:53
dos1:D13:55
DocScrutinizer05>>Everything about systemd development is centered around the desktop - like windows. They want to change a scripted startup system that is easy to understand and play with, to an all binary obfuscated design - like windows. In every aspect they want Linux to be more like windows.14:22
DocScrutinizer05Damn, if I want windows then Windows is what I will use!!<<  (https://www.change.org/petitions/lennart-poettering-stop-writing-useless-programs-systemd-journal  Joost Ruijsch WAGENINGEN, NETHERLANDS14:22
Action: wpwrak basks in the warmth of a nice little flame way ;-)14:34
DocScrutinizer05war?14:35
wpwrakerr yes14:37
wpwrakit's still pre-coffee time here14:37
DocScrutinizer05for a flame war somebody had to oppose, ideally Poettering and Sievers themselves14:38
DocScrutinizer05oooh, coffee, an *excellent* idea14:38
wpwrak(oppose) yeah, it was a little one-sided. of course, that's how many wars begin ...14:40
DocScrutinizer05on a linked but unrelated topic: can somebody with a little knowledge about HTML and browsers offer a mini lessen to me on "how to reference to a particular position in a page", e.g. like in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589#c4. I'd like to reference to where the string/href "/u/9779450" shows up, in https://www.change.org/petitions/lennart-poettering-stop-writing-useless-programs-systemd-journal. Is this even 14:41
DocScrutinizer05possible?14:41
DocScrutinizer05on rendered text of that page, this would be searchstring "Horst Burkhardt"14:42
DocScrutinizer05I see, that website is pretty messed up, in that it needs "more comments" which is a link to https://www.change.org/petitions/lennart-poettering-stop-writing-useless-programs-systemd-journal/opinions?page=9&role=comments&scope=popular for example, but results in yet another same "root" URL getting loaded, but with more context14:44
nicksydneyvideo showing glass + digitizer assembled together in a factory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfuTVjI_Wao .. interesting14:45
DocScrutinizer05digitizer?14:46
DocScrutinizer05ooh, not google glass14:46
nicksydneynah just the way they make it .. not google glass :)...may doc glass :14:49
nicksydney:)14:49
nicksydneyuhh perhaps NeoGlass :)14:49
dos1gta04b8 is a "smartwatch" design experiment14:49
DocScrutinizer05err nope, on N900 the LCD and digitizer are two separate components not glued together in that way14:50
dos1gta04b9 - who knows, maybe "neoglass"? ;)14:50
DocScrutinizer05hehe14:50
DocScrutinizer05I for sure will discard the notorious GTA running gag eventually14:51
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: can you show picture of how the LCD and digitizer are separate looks like ?14:52
DocScrutinizer05also the first numerical part is supposed to indicate model, then a major redesign level starting with "a", then "build"14:52
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: search google for "Nokia N900 digitizer"14:53
dos1GDC uses a bit confusing nomenclature of "gta04bX" where X is a design variant (main, tablet, pda, neo900, watch...)14:54
dos1major revision is "gta04AX" but that seems to apply only to the "main" Freerunner-based design14:55
dos1and here it starts to get messy :)14:56
DocScrutinizer05http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDQ81cahD1c 3:3014:56
DocScrutinizer05is your audio also as funny as mine here?14:56
dos1yep14:57
DocScrutinizer055:1014:57
DocScrutinizer05I already clearly announced that the bare boards will be labeled "NeoN-board"15:00
DocScrutinizer05gta04 was already pretty ambiguous, since it collided with a preceding gta04 project that existed inside OM15:02
dos1yep, but I actually like using "gta04b7" in stuff like bootloader code or device tree files, where variants are detected in runtime15:03
DocScrutinizer05and since nobody knows *for sure* what's the meaning of "gta" in all Openmoko designs, I think we rather should get rid of it15:03
dos1btw (gta04 @ OM) it was supposed to be a minor revision of gta03, right?15:04
DocScrutinizer05well, ok, for those purposes a unique identifier is pretty useful, so I don't mind if it's gta04b7 or gdc4jr1 or whatever15:04
DocScrutinizer05no, gta04 been the initial name of gta03 project, before it got redesigned using a different CPU than originally planned. Then Sean and Wolfgang started a "skunkwork" project of me specifying and designing a device to get build "outsourced" of FIC factory and OM EE, and the GTA04 label got reused for that15:07
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: (youtube) yeah the audio is fast forward15:07
DocScrutinizer05this GTA04 been meant to not base on *any* gta03 work, _except_ case15:07
DocScrutinizer05http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/unsorted/gta04.pdf15:09
dos1aah, that second gta04 being the same as in those your PDF?15:09
dos1hehe :D15:09
dos1(before it got redesigned using a different CPU than originally planned) so there was some other gta03 as well before the redesign?15:10
DocScrutinizer05yes, we had some gta03, gta04, gta05 06 0715:15
DocScrutinizer05can't recall what gta03 originally been meant to be. Anyway gta03 iirc started as gta04 and then got relabeled to gta0315:16
DocScrutinizer05while original gta03 got discontinued15:17
DocScrutinizer05just like gta05 and 06 (07?)15:17
DocScrutinizer05OM planned for a "sissiphone" targeted at japanese young girls or sth like that. And a "bubblephone" whatever that meant to be15:18
DocScrutinizer05all that stuff always been pretty "sekrit" even inside OM15:19
DocScrutinizer05so, if I managed to count then all, we had three gta04 prior to GDC's15:21
DocScrutinizer05them*15:21
DocScrutinizer05while it doesn't hurt to call the GDC device GTA04 (mark 4), it feels kinda odd to perpetuate that GTA moniker ad infinitum15:23
dos1:nod:15:25
dos1why the hell is bzip2 option of tar shortened to "j"?15:28
DocScrutinizer05only unassigned char left over?15:30
DocScrutinizer05btw you know about GTA03 actually had a completely different nickname eventually, in the end? Sth like r7dk415:32
dos1yep, om-3d7k15:32
dos1its board definition went to openembedded with this name15:33
DocScrutinizer05:nod:15:33
DocScrutinizer05thus... gta04b7 sounds a bit odd for a device that's not at all similar to gta02 or even gta03 (aka om-3d7k, and much more similar to gta02 than the GDC device or Neo900)15:35
DocScrutinizer05I wonder what we gonna do for 2nd revision of gta04b7. gta04b7-2 then?15:36
DocScrutinizer05and how's that linked to the board ID?15:36
DocScrutinizer05hw wise15:37
DocScrutinizer05those 3 bits or whatever15:37
DocScrutinizer05we need to define a way how a system e.g. on uSD gets to know whether it's starting up on a GTA04 or a Neo900, and which board revision of either15:38
DocScrutinizer05N900 solved this by writing the board revision (aka hw revision) to CAL15:39
dos1it's already defined afaik15:40
dos1"official" gta04 images are already supposed to be able to be transfered between gta04 variants15:40
DocScrutinizer05sure, but Neo900 doesn't fit in there, it got way too many hw mods15:41
DocScrutinizer05it's _not_ "just another GTA04 board variant"15:41
dos1dunno about revisions, but SHR somehow determines if it's running on A3 or A4 to decide if it should use sw or hw audio routing15:41
dos1but I haven't checked yet how it does it15:41
DocScrutinizer05it's rather the problem that Neo900 and GTA04 are too similar to just ignore the fact that a system designed for the one could actually try to boot on the other15:43
DocScrutinizer05none of the GPIO and I2C addresses will match15:44
DocScrutinizer05audio will differ massively15:44
DocScrutinizer05hw kbd vs aux key15:45
DocScrutinizer05different power management15:45
DocScrutinizer05maybe different boot console15:47
wpwrakmake it a build- and install-time choice ? that way, you don't have to worry about bridging all the little incompatibilities16:33
wpwrakit's cute to have a kernel that runs on many different boxes, but then there's little real value beyond the cuteness16:35
DocScrutinizer05indeed18:39
DocScrutinizer05my words18:39
DocScrutinizer05but when we assume the device can boot from uSD then we need some runtime checks to at least _stop_ booting to the wrong patform|OS combo18:40
DocScrutinizer05of course it would be even more cute to have same image boot on both platforms18:41
DocScrutinizer05at least when we installed all needed drivers etc for both platforms to the system18:41
DocScrutinizer05kernel shouldn't be the problem18:41
DocScrutinizer05sys and proc and dev prolly will be18:42
DocScrutinizer05well, maybe proc not that much18:42
DocScrutinizer05and then of course userland18:43
DocScrutinizer05there's a sh*tload of customizations to adapt for all sorts of differences, starts with modem already18:44
wpwrakwell,. if it would actually boot, then you can add something that stops it. but i mean, how many gta04 are out there anyway ?19:16
--- Sun May 25 201400:00

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