#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2014-05-22

DocScrutinizer05nah, we're a fast crew :-D00:04
DocScrutinizer05damn fast01:08
nicksydneywpwrak: will be working with the 6 layers Neo900 schematics ? :)01:36
DocScrutinizer05LOL  http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopm26588.png02:23
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: the schematics are 2D some 30 sheets. They layout is one 4-layer and one 8-layer PCB02:31
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: the diagram looks like a frequency of something no idea what it is .. but keen to know :)02:33
DocScrutinizer05my home automation02:33
nicksydneythe value in dBm ? isn't that decible ... frequency ?02:33
DocScrutinizer05dBm is signal strength, Relative Strength of SIgnal02:35
DocScrutinizer05or Received ?02:35
nicksydneyso basically it's the signal strength of each point in your home automation?02:36
nicksydneyis it like a wifi access point ?02:36
DocScrutinizer05hmm, the central control unit CCU might be02:37
DocScrutinizer05it's the thing with most connections02:37
nicksydneyhow you were able to measure the signal strenght from each point that is really interesting02:38
DocScrutinizer05the devices do that02:39
DocScrutinizer05and tell it to CCU102:39
nicksydneyahhh ok gotcha...now i get it .. thanks02:39
DocScrutinizer05and CCU1 displays http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png02:39
DocScrutinizer05and http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopm26588.png when you click that button on bottom02:40
DocScrutinizer05"Create RSSI graph online"02:40
nicksydneysignal is considered good when the dB value is minus higher or lower ?02:41
DocScrutinizer05-99dBm is limit02:41
DocScrutinizer05I guess02:41
DocScrutinizer05though for those crappy little receivers, prolly -84dBm02:41
DocScrutinizer05a cellpgone has some +26dBm output power02:42
DocScrutinizer050dBm is prolly 1mWatt02:42
nicksydneyin your case all the values are (-) does this mean that -72dBm is less strength than -2dBm ?02:42
DocScrutinizer05and I wonder why soooo many are -72dBm. Looks like a glitch somewhere02:43
nicksydneyhehe...that was exactly i was going to asked you there are more than 3-4 deviecs that read that value (-72)02:44
nicksydneyso why is it so weak 02:44
nicksydneymaybe block or interference ?02:44
DocScrutinizer05even some that are only 3m away from CCU. While e.g. "Aussen" (thermo sensor garden) is -42dBm02:44
DocScrutinizer05I think the -72 is somehow bogus02:45
DocScrutinizer05also there's a bit on nonsense in the whole thing, since all communications are bidir, and the table (http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png) states always same RSSI for A->B and B->A02:54
DocScrutinizer05which doesn't really make sense02:54
nicksydneyVoCore: A coin-sized Linux computer with wifi - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vocore-a-coin-sized-linux-computer-with-wifi05:27
nicksydneyMIPS chip :)05:27
nicksydneyinteresting how the project was outlined https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/591869/files/20140520072256-vocore.timeline.jpg?140059577605:50
nicksydneyhttp://vonger.cn/?p=6 --> "This month I spend all my free time on a cheap router chip named RT5350F. It is only 9RMB(1.5USD)." ... the chip is frickin' cheap !05:53
DocScrutinizer05VoCore is kinda nice06:48
whitequark... except for the fact that we will have a lot more of insecure Linux machines which are never updated after deployment and are a perfect target for persistent threats06:49
whitequarkit's not strictly their fault, but it's still a huge problem06:49
nicksydneycamea cross another Taiwan based company that produces GPS chip http://www.skytraq.com.tw/ ... it is also being used in https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11058 and here http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/navspark-gl-arduino-compatible-development-board-with-gps-glonass/06:49
nicksydneyschematic https://store-lgdi92x.mybigcommerce.com/content/NavSparkGL-2.pdf 06:50
nicksydneysorry wrong this one http://www.simteek.com/en/index.php/products/can5125m06:55
nicksydneyCAN5125M - GNSS Dual-mode dual-channel RF SoC06:55
nicksydneywonder why this board http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/development-boards/ is using 2 kind of GPS chip06:56
kyak2 square inch computer is impossible to loose :)07:01
kyakpretty interesting.. they claim that Atheros AR9271 requries no blob in linux kernel07:07
kyaki didn't know such chips exist07:07
kyakhow amazing is that?07:08
nicksydneyso the full driver source is available for the AR9271 ?07:11
kyakit seems so, yes07:14
kyakboth the firmware and the software driver07:14
nicksydneyseems like the IC is not sold to the public..most of the search comes out the chip insied a product07:15
kyakare you interested in the chip itself?07:17
nicksydneyjust collecting info for now :)07:17
kyakwell, if it's not at digikey, i don't know where it is :)07:19
kyakprobably the manufacturers buy from atheros directly07:19
nicksydneyor something like this http://skylab.en.alibaba.com/product/1877500197-214245023/Skylab_Microchip_WIFI_Module_WG211_MT7610U_WIFI_Module_Supports_433Mbps_PHY_rate.html07:23
DocScrutinizer05firmware? in hex or what?07:33
DocScrutinizer05or do they use ARM mnemonics?07:33
DocScrutinizer05or does it come with embedded manual for the instruction set of the embedded CPU?07:34
DocScrutinizer05wait, prolly it's c, so they will ship a gcc-extension for that CPU ISA, right?07:35
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: it uses something ancient like hitachi h8300 iirc07:35
whitequarkalso yeah, it's in C07:36
whitequarkhm, not h8300. xtensa07:37
whitequarknfc what that is, first time I ever hear that name07:37
whitequarkoh, it's a custom synthesizable core07:37
whitequarkoooooh I realized07:38
whitequarkwhoa, they open-sourced the ath*9*k firmware07:38
whitequarkI thought it was about ancient ath*5*k firmware07:38
DocScrutinizer05I still wonder which compiler to use07:39
DocScrutinizer05resp which ISA07:39
whitequarkthey ship it with a gcc patch07:39
DocScrutinizer05ok, fair enough, free firmware obviously *is* possible07:40
whitequarkand by the most unlikely vendor ever, qualcomm07:40
whitequarkI mean, atheros was always FOSS-friendly, but I was quite certain that'll end with qcom acquisition07:41
whitequarkapparently not07:41
DocScrutinizer05sure? isn't that HTC?07:41
whitequarkhm? qcom and htc are different companies07:41
whitequarknote this: The Qualcomm Atheros owned code is under the ClearBSD licence.07:42
whitequarkI quite doubt that HTC would rewrite the firmware solely to release it as FOSS07:43
DocScrutinizer05I guess chinese gvmt kicked their arse07:43
DocScrutinizer05I could figure HTC was interested in a deal including selling 1.2 billion devices to the chinese07:44
DocScrutinizer05but for that they needed to open up the complete soft/firmware07:44
whitequarkthat sounds an odd requirement07:44
DocScrutinizer05it isn't07:44
DocScrutinizer05China baught german transrapid, but only with knowhow to build them on their own07:45
DocScrutinizer05it's quite usual. Chinese gvmt is tough in that regard07:46
DocScrutinizer05china been first with requirement for USB charging07:46
DocScrutinizer05iirc they also created "their own" linux distro since they didn't want windows on laptops07:59
DocScrutinizer05with 1200 million potential customers you may start negotiations about stuff that's impossible elsewhere08:00
DocScrutinizer05and when HTC asks for 1200 million ath9k chips, they can negotiate whatever they want with qualcom08:04
DocScrutinizer05bot of course that's all wild guessing, based on 3 letters in a filename08:04
DocScrutinizer05when they say "it must be freeBSD" then qualcom will ask how to indent the code08:06
DocScrutinizer05for the chipmakers it's all just a question of ROI08:10
DocScrutinizer05what sells chips, what sells most chips, what sells chips *now*08:11
DocScrutinizer05hire 200 hackers for 3 months to rewrite that crap FOSS compliant? so what?08:13
whitequarkmakes sense08:13
DocScrutinizer05when it sells 1 billion chips08:13
DocScrutinizer05they would literally kill for less08:15
DocScrutinizer05it's not like chip makers hate FOSS per se, they just don't like the money it costs them08:16
DocScrutinizer05publish a datasheet --> hire a lawyer for two years to manage it08:17
DocScrutinizer05simple as that08:18
DocScrutinizer05cinterion recently discontinued their datasheet policy (register, receive download link)08:20
DocScrutinizer05they seem to "outsource" this, luckily there are sites like http://download.maritex.com.pl/08:22
DocScrutinizer05http://www.wirelessmodules.cz/?lngid=ENG  08:25
DocScrutinizer05and http://www.seapraha.cz/download/ \o/08:25
DocScrutinizer05YEEHAAA! http://www.seapraha.cz/download/pls8-e_atc_v01000_tcm216-155309.pdf08:27
Action: whitequark laughs09:07
whitequark$ apt-get install fontforge works... and doesn't ask $24009:08
larscbut you don't get the latest and greatest version09:11
whitequarkI've actually ran that09:12
whitequarkby comparison, Tcl/Tk looks astoundingly modern09:12
whitequarkwohoo, wpwrak, welcome on board :)10:28
nicksydneywpwrak: congrats! mate ... Werner the Gerber :)10:30
nicksydneyReplicant running w/o hardware acceleration is pretty good i should say considering it's 512MBon GTA0410:36
nicksydneywpwrak: man!  your name is everywhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko :)10:44
whitequarktry $ pstree --version10:45
nicksydneyYIKES !10:46
nicksydneyit's like he is haunting me now 10:46
nicksydneypstree (PSmisc) 22.1910:47
nicksydneyCopyright (C) 1993-2009 Werner Almesberger and Craig Small10:47
nicksydneynow this is interesting https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Werner+Almesberger&client=ubuntu&hs=bvm&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=w9V9U4bgMsTs8AXrmYL4CA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1507&bih=89610:47
nicksydneythis must be when he was 19yrs old http://marc.merlins.org/linux/linuxexpo99/Day3/Bofs/PDAs/101_almesberger.jpg :)10:48
nicksydneyand this must be after 10 yrs from that picture taken http://www.flickr.com/photos/fisl13/7661788726/in/photostream/10:49
eintopf1993 :O10:51
eintopfI have 5 years old there10:52
nicksydneyif anyone bought this kind of bluetooth http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-14001625-wireless_bluetooth_transceiver_module_ttl.html here is the datasheet for it http://www.egochina.net.cn/e-shop/ebay/datasheet/Bluetooth_Module_L6.rar11:00
nicksydneyor from that website too http://iw.suntekstore.com/attach.php?id=14001625&img=14001625-DE-2.jpg11:02
wpwrakhmm, sometimes, "the competition" seems to be going out of its way to make it easy for you: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myidkey/myidkey-passwords-at-the-tip-of-your-finger/comments16:20
nicksydneyi sometimes don't understand why people want to work and have career in Google ? if the reason is because to work with bright minds ...a lot of open source engineer are damn bright !....but if they are after the money than it's different story23:08
wpwrakmaybe it's the combination ?23:09
wpwrakalso, google have the resources to actually make things happen23:09
Lumocolorrecommendation for free drivers/firmware usb bluetooth 3.0+ dongel?23:10
wpwrakBT 4 ... the broadcom BCM20702A0 seems to have good support23:12
wpwrakwell, just BCM20702 is enough23:13
Lumocolorbt4 even better23:14
wpwrakdefinitely, because bt 4 gives you btle23:14
Lumocolorit's for my mini bt keyboard + touchpad combo23:15
Lumocolorso I need bt3 min because I don't think it's been cracked... right?23:16
wpwraki have a dongle with that chipset and it talks regular BT out of the box with ubuntu. (i got a little BT keyboard for testing) didn't even have to download firmware or such.23:16
Lumocolorshame it's a evil broadcom one sigh23:16
wpwrakdunno. the experts on poking holes into BT hang out of #ubertooth23:17
Lumocolorarrr thanks23:17
wpwrakat least it's not made my monsanto ;-)23:17
Lumocolorhehe but broadcom SOCs are as bad as monsanto :O23:18
wpwrakgiven how much the rpi spreads, you could almost say that :)23:18
Lumocolorjust remembered http://h-node.org/bluetooth/catalogue/en/1/1/undef/2013/yes/USB/undef/undef23:23
wpwraka very limited list23:25
Lumocoloralso look at 2012,201123:26
Lumocolorcan't filter by bt version, so I filtered by year, yours is mentioned23:26
wpwraki searched for  BCM20702. there's a lot more dongles with that chip out there23:27
LumocolorI only need one23:27
wpwrakthat database shows just one and that's probably something integrated in the laptop23:27
wpwrakthat one has a CSR chipset. dunno if that's okay with linux.23:33
wpwrakthis one is known to work: http://www.amazon.com/Kinivo-BTD-400-Bluetooth-4-0-adapter/dp/B007Q45EF423:33
wpwrakhere's another one with the broadcom chip: http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Bluetooth-Micro-Adapter-GBU521/dp/B007GFX0PY23:35
Lumocolorbouns is it dosen't look like a boardcom one hehehe :)23:35
wpwrakkewl :)23:35
LumocolorI wonder what the signal is like on these tiny things23:35
Lumocolordon't they need a 4cm antenna for err full range?23:37
wpwrakmaybe. but then, these centimeters don't have to be in a straight line23:48
wpwraksee atben/atusb: there, the antenna is folded23:48
wpwrakand then you have chip antennas that are even more compact23:49
DocScrutinizer051/4 lambda, 5/8 lambda, 1/2 lambda diploles, there's a lot of stuff, it's not about a certain length of wire23:52
DocScrutinizer05and then an antenna basically *always* is a dipole - something most people like to ignore or not even understand23:54
wpwrakdo you know how chip antennas manage to be so small ? is it mainly the dielectric or some clever folding ?23:54
wpwrakwell, the meandering antennas hide their dipolity rather well ;-)23:54
DocScrutinizer05well, you can make an antenna out of everything, as long as the tuning is ok. Gain however is another question23:54
wpwraktakes a bit of explaining to make people understand that they're still basically the same23:54
DocScrutinizer05I don't think those chip antennas have a particularly good gain23:55
wpwrakand then you have even weirder forms, slot antennas etc. i don't even pretend how all those critters really work :)23:55
DocScrutinizer05RF is voodoo23:55
wpwraksome of the chips look reasonably decent. not all, though.23:55
DocScrutinizer05did you happen to run into the book about antenna design I bought in that awesome bookstore in TPE and left in OM office? it had some 1300 pages23:56
DocScrutinizer05just about antennas23:56
wpwrakno, never saw that one23:57
DocScrutinizer05(was too heavy to take it with me to D)23:57
wpwraki miss that bookshop, too23:57
wpwrakand "too heavy" is a poor excuse :)23:58
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