#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2014-05-08

DocScrutinizer05could you help me out why exactly we need systemd? sth about tunning parallel processes?21:52
DocScrutinizer05long live sysV-init! https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15356721:53
wpwraki think the main purpose of systemd is to annoy anyone who has reached adulthood22:00
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: it's true though that traditional init systems are unaware of dynamic environments22:02
whitequarke.g. ones where interfaces, devices and so on come and go, rather than having a single static configuration22:02
DocScrutinizer05afaik that's what udev is made for22:04
whitequarkudev is unaware of desktop though22:04
DocScrutinizer05please don't tell me systemd is entangled with desktop22:05
whitequarkthis is the whole point of its creation, providing a more convenient interface to the DE22:05
whitequarksimilarly to e.g. networkmanager22:06
DocScrutinizer05W? T? F?!22:06
whitequarkand pulseaudio and ...22:07
whitequarkand while the solution is quite sub-par, the problems exist22:07
DocScrutinizer05I don't see *any* desktop interface for PissAudio22:07
whitequarkaccording to poettering, one of the goals for PA is to make audio subsystem aware of desktop session22:08
whitequarke.g. in Windows and OSX you wouldn't hear anything that is not produced by the currently running desktop session22:08
whitequarkwith bare ALSA you would22:08
DocScrutinizer05and for the life of mine I can't think of a valid usecase where user/desktop had to mess around with system-init22:08
whitequarkstarting services on-demand22:08
DocScrutinizer05what's wrong with sudo ifup ?22:09
whitequarke.g. the whole dbus activation business was created for that, and like udev and dbus itself (apparently) it's now folded into systemd22:09
whitequarkdo you seriously suggest me to go to the console in order to make an USB modem work?22:09
whitequarkor do you suggest for whatever component responsible to go scrape the output of an utility which was never designed for that job?22:10
DocScrutinizer05fsck dat modem. I plug it in, udev takes care, network manager does the rest22:10
DocScrutinizer05how's that related to sysinit?22:10
whitequarkas I understand it, the idea is to run NM (for example) whenever a dbus request for it arrives22:11
DocScrutinizer05and no, you of course can create a .desktop file and click on the icon to execute whatever you like22:11
whitequarkto get faster startup time22:11
whitequark*I* am not going to bother with creating anything22:11
whitequarkit must just work.22:11
DocScrutinizer05poettering bullshit as usual22:12
whitequarka system that requires manual intervention to perform most basic possible tasks should just die22:13
whitequarkit's not fucking 199522:13
DocScrutinizer05right! kill poettering, kill all his monsters he created22:13
DocScrutinizer05when it doesn't need fucking "manual intervention" then pretty please don't make sysinit "desktop aware" since wtf is desktop meant/needed for, if not for "manual intervention"22:15
whitequarkthe desktop is meant for solving problems, not creating them22:15
whitequarkand if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem22:15
DocScrutinizer05exactly, so tell poettering to leave it alone22:16
whitequarka shout-out to CUPS, which suffers from similar idiocy22:16
whitequarkalthough it seemed to get marginally better recently22:16
whitequarkwell, I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever managed to set up a printer with CUPS in shorter than ten minutes22:16
whitequarkand it should take 0.22:16
whitequarkand scanners just don't work *shrug*22:17
DocScrutinizer05so that's sysinit's fault now?22:17
whitequarkthat's a fault of linux on desktop in general22:17
whitequarkif changing sysinit fixes that, then sysinit should be changed22:18
DocScrutinizer05I can't recall doing *any* config for 4 out of my last 5 printer-equipped systems I installed22:18
whitequarkthen you're lucky22:18
DocScrutinizer05I think we should change color of CPU ceramic, since when it changes that we for sure should do it22:19
whitequarklast time I tried it, the printer in our office simply refused to do anything except interpreting binary input as text and promptly printing hundreds of pages of garbage22:19
whitequarknever solved it22:19
DocScrutinizer05blame your crappy distro!22:20
whitequarkoh fuck off22:20
whitequarkmy point is, init is no sacred cow. if changing it somehow actually makes desktop better, then it can and should be changed22:20
whitequarksystemd doesn't seem like the solution to me, though22:21
DocScrutinizer05I really don't want a system that has a monster of sysinit that takes care of printer driver installation for all arbitrary printers hotplugged any time during system lifetime, possibly informing user on desktop about "systemd is now downloading printer driver for your fsckMe-piss-ink from internet, stay tuned and praise poettering!"22:22
DocScrutinizer05my point is sysinit is damn unrelated to desktop,, and for sure better stays like that22:24
DocScrutinizer05as unrelated to desktop as my trousers are unrelated to the type of motor oil my car engine needs22:25
whitequarkis there a divine rule "sysinit shalt not ever be related to desktop"?22:25
DocScrutinizer05no, that's called basic logic22:26
whitequarka DE is something that ultimately controls *everything* happening on the machine22:26
DocScrutinizer05the two aare as unrelated as the display is unrelated to the PSU fan22:26
whitequarkpretty damn logical that it should control service invocation22:26
DocScrutinizer05WTF?? get your stuff sorted! [2014-05-09 Fri 00:15:56] <whitequark> and if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem22:27
whitequarkon a desktop (or tablet) the kernel and all the crap around it is a mere UI support library22:27
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall why I parted here22:28
DocScrutinizer05you now have 3 statements that are 180° opposite to each other, seems not even possible in usual 3-dimensional continuum. 1) sysinit shall take care about lowlevel stuff, I don't want to hear about any of that  2) everything down to systeminit is controlled by desktop and we need generic means to do so, since usual windows and graphic toolkits don't suffice for that, so we need to link desktop into kernel  3) kernel does nothing 22:33
DocScrutinizer05useful at all. On desktop engines it supports desktop, on all other systems you can forget about kernel since no desktop to support22:33
whitequarkI didn't say anything at all about non-desktop systems, and systemd shouldn't ever touch them at all22:34
whitequarkotherwise your summary is correct22:34
whitequarkok, no, almost correct22:34
whitequarkI didn't say "link desktop into kernel", I did say "we need to add whatever interfaces desktop wants"22:35
DocScrutinizer05please go for M$-windows or even FF-OS22:36
whitequarknope and nope.22:36
DocScrutinizer05unix is a proper OS, not a glorified GUI22:36
whitequarkand what is a "proper OS" ?22:39
whitequarka proper desktop or touch-device OS *is* a GUI (and something to run it)22:39
--- Fri May 9 201400:00

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