#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-04-23

DocScrutinizer05http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/0000/bastard01.php is a tad different though. I wonder where from I got that "She lets you know you can get lost"00:12
DocScrutinizer05no, didn't happen to me ;-P00:12
DocScrutinizer05EUGH! http://privatepaste.com/781a5655c702:13
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: http://wstaw.org/m/2014/04/23/plasma-desktopH31889.png  http://wstaw.org/m/2014/04/23/plasma-desktopr31889.png    http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/2139926/heute-nacht-vom-22.April-2014?flash=off  6:3606:04
DocScrutinizer05Alexandr Djagilew >>nobody sane in maind has any objections<<  7:3106:06
wpwrakwhat's the background ? blue wall with grafitti and people ?06:07
DocScrutinizer05well, I could understand whe whitequark is asking this, since the comment is in german language. But you?06:14
DocScrutinizer05[2014-04-23 Wed 00:42:07] <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: congrats, your moscow streets get nicer now. Don't dare to think otherwise! The project manager clearly stated that those who don't like this project are not of a sane state of mind [2014-04-23 Wed 00:44:00] <DocScrutinizer05> "Putin" painting walls with graffiti showing Krim in russian colors, and of course the logo i´of his party next to it  <DocScrutinizer05> I seem to 06:15
DocScrutinizer05recall they said "2000 walls"06:15
wpwrakah :)06:16
wpwrakwell, standard propaganda, i guess. painting it on walls seems a little antiquated, but whatever ...06:17
DocScrutinizer05funny enough, even the local party representative thinks it's NOT ok to link those graffitis to the party06:18
wpwrakhonestly, i have no clue what would be considered proper form for propaganda in russia :)06:19
DocScrutinizer05but honestly, are you all on datavolume quota or do I sense an almost religios aversion against watching any movies not published on youtube?06:19
DocScrutinizer05why don't you simply watch from 6:3606:20
wpwrakmovies are extremely disruptive. and right now, YT seems to have cooked up some incompatibility with chromium, so i can't even watch them in the browser06:20
wpwrakyou can't just have a quick peek and move on06:21
DocScrutinizer05yeah, a problem for those with an attention span of <20 seconds06:22
DocScrutinizer05the whole report is an unbearable 2:30 or less06:22
wpwrakyou have to stop, wait until the stuff loads, maybe wait until the ads are over, then listen to whatever irrelevant stuff is in the clip, maybe get some interruptions because streaming sucks, and so on06:22
DocScrutinizer05either that or your carefully cultivated prejudice about propaganda in German TV might suffer 06:24
wpwrakand of course you never say why you think it would be worth watching it. you just post a cryptic url without much further comment. e.g., www.youtube.com/q=Xt36757 vs. "here's putin in his underpants"06:25
DocScrutinizer05again mhm06:26
DocScrutinizer05I see, 8h is way beyond any reasonable memory, not to use the term attention span which wouldn't be to the point for recalling a post I made some max 100 lines above06:27
wpwraki don't necessarily read all discussions that seem to be just between two people ...06:29
wpwrakor three, whatever. i may read stuff also when i'm merely bored, but then i try to avoid having to kill a lot of time ;-)06:31
DocScrutinizer05You might not care, since it's far from where you live. But I got friends in Moskow and Kiew, and generally we're worried here in Europe about how Putin seems to consistently push towards cold or even hot war06:39
DocScrutinizer05and brainwashing masses in Russia is just one detail in that whole issue06:40
DocScrutinizer05sending 1000s of special military forces to Donjezk and other eastern ukraine cities to support a mob of maybe a few hundred criminal stupid fanatic separatists is another detail06:42
DocScrutinizer05that mob torturing and killing official legitimate politicians just because they publicly utter sympathy or just loyality for Kiew government is what makes things just more obvious06:45
DocScrutinizer05Putin calling fascists and illegitimate those hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating on Maidan square for literally months during hard winter, without doing much agression. While he calls "russian people that need protection" that mob of a few 100 teens with kalashnikov who didn't demonstrate at all but simply went burning down police stations and occupying military bases right away06:49
wpwrakseems that he lacks some refinement. he got the basics of justifying just about anything right, though06:54
DocScrutinizer05sorry this is not on my list of things I care about06:55
wpwraki guess the problem is that ukraine is a fairly large country. so you couldn't just make it a buffer zone between east and west, similar to the role of uruguay (before, argentina and brazil, well, or spain and portugal, had been at each other's throat all the time. having a little neutral country between them, than lowered the tensions considerably)06:59
wpwrakoops, delete the last "than"07:00
DocScrutinizer05I just wonder how weak that asshole actually must be to have to resort to this type of "politics"07:38
DocScrutinizer05maybe russian peole is more fed up by Putin than anybody outside Russia, well maybe except him, actually noticed so far07:40
DocScrutinizer05s/exc/anybody exc/07:41
DocScrutinizer05I wonder when he's going to have portraits of his fckng face everywhere, like the one with the beard in Cuba08:22
DocScrutinizer05or the other one in china08:23
DocScrutinizer05or that idiot in Irak08:23
DocScrutinizer05Seems Russian people is the only one that ever happened to get democratized by its leader and then is almost actively pushing to get back their dictator08:25
ysionneauI've seen some interviews in Russia during preparation of olympic games, Poutine's portrait was in a lot of places...08:26
DocScrutinizer05mhm, already08:26
ysionneauIn the houses of the privileged guys running some hotels or some big company involved with the olympics08:26
DocScrutinizer05no surprise08:27
ysionneau"friends" of poutines08:27
DocScrutinizer05oh, so just inhouse. Like the ubiquitous Fuehrerbild08:27
ysionneauyes inhouse08:29
ysionneaubut I think it's already a good indication of how things are going08:30
ysionneaugiving too much importance to the person of an executive is just wrong (in any country, and in France it's not good either)08:31
ysionneauAll that should matter is the politics they apply, the decisions, the law passed etc08:31
ysionneaunot who they are08:31
DocScrutinizer05your french spelling of the name has something mocking in it, sounds like sth to eat, a bird, or some sort of gay guy08:31
larscit is something to eat08:31
DocScrutinizer05la poutine08:31
ysionneauah yes :)08:32
ysionneauit is08:32
ysionneaubut Putin is an insult08:32
ysionneauit's "whore"08:32
ysionneauah err sorry08:33
ysionneauwrong spelling08:33
ysionneauputain is the insult08:33
ysionneaunot putin :p08:33
ysionneaubut it's pronounced the exact same in French08:33
larsc'putain de merde' I have to remember that one08:34
pcercueinot the exact same08:34
ysionneauahah yep that's a very common one08:34
ysionneaupcercuei: well yes maybe I'm not an expert in linguistic, it might be slightly different, but I think most people would pronounce it the same08:35
pcercueiin French, Putin is pronounced Poutine08:37
DocScrutinizer05yeah, sure08:37
ysionneauwell, if you read "Putin" in French, it's not "poutin", but the French word for "Putin" is indeed "Poutine" 08:37
ysionneauthat's what I wanted to say08:37
ysionneausorry for the conversation switch :D08:38
ysionneaupou , pronounced like in "poor"08:39
ysionneau(or almost)08:39
DocScrutinizer05yeah, but I think poutine has emphasis on 'i'08:39
DocScrutinizer05while Putin has it on 'u'08:40
ysionneauah yes I think so 08:40
ysionneauusually it's hard to understand the word Putin prononced in a russian sentence for the French people08:41
ysionneaubecause of this difference in the location of the emphasis08:41
ysionneauat least for me08:41
ysionneauanyway what are the last funny news about Putin?08:42
ysionneauI'm not following that much the news about Russia, Ukraine and such08:42
DocScrutinizer05nothing that funny, just the moscow graffiti artists now paint 2000 walls with motives that are giving him a smile when he's looking at them08:43
DocScrutinizer05ordered and paid for by Putin or whomever in the hierarchy08:44
DocScrutinizer05of course paid for by administration and basically advertisment for the party08:46
ysionneauah that's Crimea in Russian colours08:46
DocScrutinizer05of course also advertisment and propaganda for putin's reactionary and nationalist politics08:47
ysionneauhumm not sure that's very clever to draw this everywhere08:47
ysionneauit's like remembering everyone "he look, we took that!"08:47
ysionneauI don't  understand the text though08:47
ysionneauwhitequark: are you not fed up everyone is tchit tchating about your country without knowing it really?08:48
Action: ysionneau honestly never went to Russia08:48
DocScrutinizer05yes, they celebrate the prey very euphorically in TV and on 2000 walls now and in newspapers. He's brainwashing Russian people08:49
DocScrutinizer05and a considerable amount of russians already cheers "hail Putin"08:50
DocScrutinizer05another part demonstrates for "truth in TV", uttering their concerns about that brainwash, but those quickly get arrested or simply beaten away08:52
DocScrutinizer05usual procedure to deal with "non-authorized public meetings"08:52
DocScrutinizer05in eastern Ukraine similar pro-Kiew demonstrants get beaten up by "activists" or even get killed 08:53
DocScrutinizer05or 20 year old militant pro-Putin gangsers (in a group of maybe 100) trow stones at 70 year old people walking by, and hit them in the face. Probably the old ones said something the young ones didn't like to hear08:56
DocScrutinizer05the old people were a group of 208:57
ysionneauthat's a crazy situation ...08:57
ysionneauit's so terrible something like this can happen08:57
ysionneauwhat's even crazier, is that it's not some small country lost in the corner of the world and trying to hide from the world like North Korea08:58
ysionneauit's a big very well known country, very well integrated in the world economy08:58
DocScrutinizer05yeah, an only a 900km away from where I live08:59
ysionneauwhere are you, germany? which city? (I won't come to track you down)08:59
ysionneauI don't even find it in maps :p09:01
ysionneauI find some place in Toronto called Nue09:01
DocScrutinizer05ok, 100009:04
ysionneauah  Nürnberg09:04
DocScrutinizer05though 1000 is road distance, not straight line09:05
ysionneauwill you come at EHSM?09:07
DocScrutinizer05what's that?09:07
ysionneauDIY stuff talks, in Hamburg09:07
ysionneauat DESY09:07
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I don't know if I got time and money to go there09:09
DocScrutinizer05also the topic is slightly off from what I'm concerned most about right now09:10
DocScrutinizer05we're not making chips, we simply use them09:10
DocScrutinizer05the focus there seems to be more on fundamental research09:11
ysionneausame for me, but it looks cool and interesting09:12
ysionneau(except I have the money and I will take the time)09:12
DocScrutinizer05sure, but it also is kinda expensive for me to go 3 days to HH09:13
ysionneauah yes there is the transport and hotel09:13
ysionneauit's not just the ticket price09:13
DocScrutinizer05400 bucks minimum I guess09:13
ysionneaujust wondering but, working on neo900 is your dayjob?09:14
DocScrutinizer05and 4 days off, not doing productive stuff09:14
DocScrutinizer05right now yes, sort of09:14
ysionneaudo you get paid for it?09:15
DocScrutinizer05not yet09:15
ysionneauso you live on your savings09:17
DocScrutinizer05more or less yes09:18
nicksydneythis is interesting 11:20
nicksydneyDetails about  New HLK-RM04 Embedded UART-ETH-WIFI Transparent Switch Module Built-in TCP/IP11:20
nicksydney --> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-HLK-RM04-Embedded-UART-ETH-WIFI-Transparent-Switch-Module-Built-in-TCP-IP-/261361330069?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cda59679511:20
nicksydneyruns OpenWRT11:20
larscI'll stay with cat /dev/urandom | aplay I guess12:08
DocScrutinizer05suckers! don't they know the name netcat is already reserved?13:29
viricit seems that they reached quite a lot of people, with this kernel module propaganda13:30
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~> netcat --help13:31
DocScrutinizer05netcat: invalid option -- '-'13:31
DocScrutinizer05This is nc from the netcat-openbsd package. An alternative nc is available13:31
DocScrutinizer05in the netcat-traditional package.13:31
DocScrutinizer05usage: nc [-46DdhklnrStUuvzC] [-i interval] [-P proxy_username] [-p source_port]13:31
viriconly one alternative nc available?13:32
ysionneauwpwrak: pretty awesome "anelok tv" episode :)13:37
wpwrakthanks :-)13:48
ysionneauwhat IC are you using to do the spectrum analysis ?13:49
wpwraki think i'm slowly getting the hang of doing that video editing :)13:49
wpwrakthat's the at86rf231 of atusb13:49
ysionneauall the magic is in the at86rf231 chip?13:50
ysionneauit's a 2.4 GHz receiver?13:50
ysionneaugot the datasheet13:51
wpwrakyup, it's a 802.15.4 transceiver, for the 2.4 GHz band13:52
eintopflarsc: :P14:02
eintopfwpwrak: hi14:02
wpwrak^... and if anything around 802.15.4 breaks, blame him :)14:04
ysionneauwpwrak: pretty usefull to have a 2.4 GHz spectrum analyzer while developing an RF application :p14:11
ysionneauwpwrak: your 3D-kindof GUI tool seems nice too!14:11
sb0"came from .ogg files that were encoded from .wav files that were created from .mp3 files"14:15
eintopfthere exists two netcat implementation. One is from gnu (the poor one) and one is from bsd.14:15
sb0/nick rms "you can have shitty audio quality, as long as it's free"14:15
viriceintopf: the gnu one has a nice "-L, --tunnel=ADDRESS:PORT"14:16
eintopfviric: but the bsd has a nice -614:16
eintopffor ipv614:16
viricwho needs ipv6?14:17
eintopfme :(14:17
whitequarkwho needs ipv4?14:17
eintopfeveryone which used ipv6 needs ipv414:17
eintopfthere is a address mapping range for ipv414:17
viricI remember that the ipv6 stack added 600KB to the kernel memory usage14:18
whitequark600KB... so, about 1/20th of the backbuffer memory for this console window I'm typing in14:18
Action: whitequark adjusts the window to be slightly smaller14:18
viricit mattered for my 16MB routers :)14:18
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Netgear-Update-Router-Backdoor-nur-versteckt-2173996.html  (sorry, de_DE)14:28
wpwrakysionneau: (gui) yeah, and it's extremely simple. just a bit of SDL and SDL_gfx. looks a lot more sophisticated than it really is ;-)14:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you're very slow ;-) http://www.heise.de/security/news/foren/S-Hand-ins-Feuer/forum-278465/msg-25115972/read/14:29
DocScrutinizer05no, BuergerCERT is very slow14:30
DocScrutinizer05hehe, on my linksys wrt54g there's DDwrt since I got it *as a gift*14:32
DocScrutinizer05but it's behinf a fritzbox anyway, so double-NAT, double-PITA, doube-save ;-)14:33
DocScrutinizer05traceroute to ct.de (, 30 hops max, 60 byte packets14:35
DocScrutinizer05 1 (  0.993 ms  1.356 ms  2.353 ms14:36
DocScrutinizer05 2 (  10.213 ms  10.558 ms  10.869 ms14:36
DocScrutinizer05 3  ppp-default.m-online.net (8.3.x.8)  29.988 ms  30.433 ms  31.469 ms14:36
wpwraki took the inspiration from mickey and installed tomato. very nice and you don't have to re-learn the UI if you haven't touched it for a year or so14:39
whitequarkopenwrt gui is pretty great14:42
viricDocScrutinizer05: I guess it can't do much ipv614:43
whitequarkwrt54g is probably the worst router I've ever seen. broadcrap, and slow as hell at that14:43
whitequarklike, my current uplink will saturate NAT running over it, and it's not even full 100mbit14:43
DocScrutinizer05I don't mind (either of both)14:43
DocScrutinizer0516Mb here, dl. 2 up. And yes, it's at 60% at times. So what?14:44
viricwrt54g is not for 100mbit wan :)14:44
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: dunno. I like to download 1080p. actually, a 1080p torrenting down saturates *one core* solely with checksumming the file14:45
DocScrutinizer05and I boggled from IPv6 so far, primarily because that needs config chages to the fritzbox which might cause network outage not only for me but for the whole house14:45
DocScrutinizer05and I can't access the FritzBox reset button physically14:45
wpwrakthose russian bourgeois have too much money to spend on fancy routers and on bandwith :)14:46
DocScrutinizer05Putin will chage that soon enough14:47
whitequarkand that's at mere 50mbit (I'd get more but 11b/g spectrum is full of crap, and this router has only one PHY, and 11a is incompatible with devices my guests sometimes use)14:47
DocScrutinizer05lame excuses ;-P14:48
whitequarkotherwise I'd long upgraded to gigabit fiber for $30/mo14:48
whitequarkjealous? :p14:49
DocScrutinizer05not really14:49
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: now that i think of it, germany attacking russia doesn't sound like such a bad idea. you may want their fibers :)14:49
whitequarkI don't really know what to do with >50mbit either, to be honest14:49
DocScrutinizer05I hardly +ever* feel need for faster lik speeds14:49
DocScrutinizer05I hardly *ever* feel need for faster link speeds14:50
wpwrakthe laxer the copyright law enforcement, the more useful some spare bandwidth :)14:50
DocScrutinizer0516Mb down is mostly perfect. Up is sometimes tedious14:50
wpwrakwhitequark: seems that you're safe from DocScrutinizer05 then14:50
DocScrutinizer05we do 50Mb via copper here, no need for gay glasfibre14:51
DocScrutinizer05then otoh we don't route our cables from rooftop to rooftop14:52
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I have 80Mb uplink actually. 50Mb is what remains after I spread it via wifi14:52
wpwrakputin wouldn't want to have any gay fiber anyway. it's probably all manly industrial diamond :)14:53
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: despite it being 11n and claiming speed up to 150Mb or whatever14:53
DocScrutinizer05prolly if this would be just +allowed* here, we already had fibre in every home14:53
whitequarkwhat's the issue with routing cables from rooftop to rooftop?14:53
wpwraknothing, if you don't mind living like a spider ...14:53
whitequarkI hardly can even see those cables14:54
whitequarkI mean, it is worth noting that Moscow is on average >10 floor high14:54
whitequarkprolly not true for DE14:54
wpwraka saw it at my old apartment. first it was thin telephone wires. then they added coax for catv. they may have mixed in some power lines, too. finally they brought in fiber trunks for internet. it's kinda weird to have a 5 cm cable dangling in front of your office14:55
whitequarkI know a route to a certain useful shop here. on that route, a cable hangs down from a lighting pole, at about eye level14:56
DocScrutinizer05wait til lightning storm ;-P14:56
whitequarkfor several months14:56
whitequarkI am suspicious that it just *might* be live14:56
wpwrakbe a good citiz... er, comrade, drink a bottle of vodka, then touch it :)14:57
whitequarkI never had the audacity of bringing an indicator screwdriver to test it, because who knows what voltage is it14:57
whitequarkprobably at most 380V, but... who knows14:57
wpwrakthe vodka will make you invulnerable14:57
wpwrakyou'll (try to) say so yourself after you've downed the bottle14:57
whitequarkI heard that alcohol makes you "invulnerable" to falls for some of the same reasons cats are14:58
whitequarki.e. you relax your skeletal muscles while you fall, and so you basically touch the ground like a ragdoll14:58
wpwrakyeah, so many benefits14:58
wpwrak"Road safety announcement: no drink, no driving"15:02
viricwhitequark: there is a discussion about crazy russian new laws on internet communication, in #tox15:05
viriccrazy things15:05
whitequarkyeah I know about that law15:07
whitequarkit's... legislatory theater15:07
ysionneauwhat does the law say?15:08
DocScrutinizer05all that theater serves a purpose15:08
DocScrutinizer05just like the graffiti15:08
DocScrutinizer05and TV news reports about fascists everywhere except in .ru15:09
whitequarkysionneau: "Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!"15:09
DocScrutinizer05and moderators going nuts about thermonuclear attacks to USA15:09
DocScrutinizer05and Putin riding a horse half-naked15:10
DocScrutinizer05it's aaaaaaal the same masterplan15:10
whitequarkysionneau: ostensibly, that foreign services like gmail and so must store metadata in RU. in practice: "you're our bitch and you can do nothing about it"15:10
DocScrutinizer05(no, I won't fetch my tinfoil hat now)15:10
whitequarksince gmail and co will obviously refuse, they'll get blocked15:11
DocScrutinizer05don't you see the masterplan?15:11
DocScrutinizer05really, you do't?15:11
ysionneau17:09 < whitequark> ysionneau: "Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!" < is that a reference to Ylvis video "what does the fox says ?"15:11
whitequarkysionneau: yep15:11
ysionneauahah :)15:11
ysionneaudid you see the Add for Firefox OS based phone ?15:12
whitequarkysionneau: it's terrible15:13
whitequarkin a good way15:13
ysionneauyes, I love it :'15:13
ysionneauwhitequark: (about the law) omg, nice one :)15:14
ysionneauhas the law passed already?15:14
DocScrutinizer05I killed it at ~0:1715:14
whitequarkysionneau: that would matter if anyone cared about laws15:15
DocScrutinizer05I bet they coordinated it with the turkish bastard15:15
whitequarkin practice, they literally block whatever the fuck they want, with or without court decision15:15
ysionneauDocScrutinizer05: you missed the funny part :p15:16
ysionneaubut it's even funnier if you know the original video (which was already 'WTF')15:16
whitequarke.g. navalny.ru is blocked despite the responsible official explicitly stating that there is no lawful reason for the block15:16
whitequarkdespite that, my ISP entirely ignores the block with apparently no consequences for them15:17
whitequarkas I've said, no one cares about laws, either way.15:17
DocScrutinizer05fucking spammers get really good lately. Absolutely correct German with a plausible storry about me having registered or signed up with sth they claim will cost money. To reject the contract, *please use form in attached .zip* BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAA15:19
whitequarkysionneau: does the way Crimea has been annexed make sense for you now? because he could. that's the only reason that is needed here.15:19
DocScrutinizer05alas 50%+ *will* open the .zip, of course using windoze15:19
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I've seen that for ~2 years already, in english. *really* well-copied forms from major banks, etc15:20
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: eventually they will evolve better technical skills, too ...15:20
whitequarkabsolutely indistinguishable from genuine ones, easily tricking me15:20
whitequarkexcept for the .exe15:20
DocScrutinizer05well, they never use the right email addr to send me that crap. But this time they were scaringly close: my yahoo mail account incl proper display name :-o15:22
ysionneauwhitequark: I just know that somehow Crimea was "strategic" for Russia, and since the ukraine was being unstable then they unlawfully (is there any lawful way of doing it?) basically took Crimea with the army and annexed it15:23
DocScrutinizer05oooh wait, they sent to yahoo. Meh, need more coffee15:23
whitequarkI seen mails with correct To *and* From address, they've even passed DKIM checks (!)15:23
whitequarkno clue how they did that15:23
ysionneauwith some dummy reasons like "it was naturally our ground"15:23
whitequarkysionneau: it's not like international law exists in general. it's some fiction written by whoever was the strongest15:24
ysionneauI guess the fact that a lot of people speak russian in this area helps to justify the takeover15:24
whitequarkwell, the population of Crimea is overwhelmingly for the takeover15:25
DocScrutinizer05that, and the propaganda about "fascists everywhere, only Putin can help you!"15:25
whitequarkwhich is understandable, since it mostly comes from or is related to russian military bases there15:25
ysionneaubut at the origin the port was landed to Russia for their ships, in exchange of a 30% cut in the gaz price, right ?15:27
DocScrutinizer05sure. I plotted that a week or so ago: send a few thousand "imigrants" or whatever. Make up some threat they face. Send more to help the original ones. Finally take over since you got the majority anyway15:27
ysionneauthen Russia took the land and said "ok please pay us back all the history of gaz that you paid for less than the real price"15:27
DocScrutinizer05basically yes, afaik15:28
ysionneauwhich is ... kind of a weird way to honour the "contract"15:28
DocScrutinizer05like stealing a shop and then asking for refund for the goods you purchased there from the ex owner15:29
ysionneauahah sure15:29
DocScrutinizer05since "sucker, it's my shop now, so you pay back the money I gave you!"15:29
whitequarkyou have this weird assumption that intl politics has some kind of rules15:30
whitequarkit's cute15:30
ysionneauwell, it's human big social game15:30
ysionneausocial interactions have rules15:30
ysionneaufor everyone to be happy, everyone else has to be nice to each other15:31
wpwrakoh, they do. me_stronger ? i_make_the_rules : youre_worse_than_hitler;15:31
ysionneauand respect things like treaty, contracts etc15:31
whitequarkrules as in physics, sure. rules like "don't break the contract"? lol15:31
ysionneauif you don't respect contracts kind of stuff, how can you build a society/world that works and that does not fall into chaos ?15:32
ysionneaulike with rules and laws15:32
whitequarkif the cost of breaking it is lower than cost of fulfilling, it *will* be broken15:32
wpwrakcontracts_benefits_me ? emphasize_the_sacticity_of_honoring_ones_word : meh;15:32
whitequarkysionneau: you're assuming that is a goal15:32
DocScrutinizer05no, but I'd at least expect a minimum of common sense15:32
ysionneauyep, I assume that most people want to achieve that15:32
DocScrutinizer05at least try to pretend they had somthing like common sense15:32
ysionneauwhitequark: but yes, I have no illusion anymore about Putin having this kind of goal15:33
ysionneauit's clear to me that he only has a big ego issue, and he just tries to make up for it15:33
ysionneauso he needs bigger country, more money15:34
ysionneaua bigger olympics than anybody15:34
DocScrutinizer05honestly WHY is this sucker Putin bothering to talk to us to spread his lies, when everybody clearly can see those are lies? Wouldn't it be "smarter" to simply waste his time with better things than talking lies to the international public15:34
ysionneaubigger anything15:34
whitequarkysionneau: he's not that dumb15:34
whitequarkbigger country translates to more loyalty, quite directly15:34
whitequarkthere is a lot of people that are really happy to see RU expanding. patriotism, all that shit15:34
ysionneauoua :(15:35
ysionneaubut the end goal, what is it?15:35
ysionneauhe wants people t o like him?15:35
ysionneauhe wants to be seen as a hero?15:35
DocScrutinizer05and who's not happy about it will soon regret he isn't15:35
ysionneauhe wants money?15:35
whitequarkhe wants to rule15:35
DocScrutinizer05short dick, you know15:36
larscAnd above all he wants to annoy DocScrutinizer05 15:36
whitequarkeverything else is either a precondition or a consequence15:36
DocScrutinizer05larsc: wow!15:37
DocScrutinizer05larsc: that's terrible accusation, you say it's all *my* fault15:38
larscwars have been started over less15:38
DocScrutinizer05I rather think he wants to imprss you!15:38
Action: whitequark fetches a five-liter bucket of popcorn15:39
DocScrutinizer05you shouldn't have worn that shirt, I told ya15:39
DocScrutinizer05we always knew he's gay15:39
Action: wpwrak fills the bathtub with popcorn, pours some oil over it, sets it on fire15:41
whitequarkrelevant: http://pleer.com/tracks/22614Mf0S15:43
DocScrutinizer05(lies) sorry I forgot every communication seemingly directed to international addr is actually just another bit of the .ru-internal brainwash puzzle15:51
DocScrutinizer05"No, we don't have official troops there (<tongue in cheek> <stupid grin>)"  APLAUSE, LAUGHTER15:52
DocScrutinizer05maybe calling Obama a moron was simpler than those lies. Ow wait, didn't he?15:53
DocScrutinizer05Russia is missing an enemy15:54
DocScrutinizer05an army man (or - in this case - secret service) can't excel without some enemy15:55
DocScrutinizer05what else could he do to impress the russian people? demonstrate that he knows to add 2 + 215:56
DocScrutinizer05obviously he can't make "money for nothing, and chicks for free" come true for most of his people15:57
DocScrutinizer05all he got is his military engine15:58
DocScrutinizer05and gas15:58
DocScrutinizer05he failed to excel on relevant reasonable statements and actions in internationalpeaceful politics, so nobody cares about him15:59
DocScrutinizer05hi DocScrutinizer0515:59
DocScrutinizer05hi dos116:00
dos1hi dos1 :D16:00
DocScrutinizer05ooh, I forgot: a seat in UN security council. Which is worth nothing unless you say "Niet!" to everything16:03
DocScrutinizer05pubertary behavior16:04
DocScrutinizer05err, adolescent16:04
DocScrutinizer05let's hope eventually he'll grow out of it16:06
ysionneauor die one day and be replaced by someone kinder/nicer16:08
ysionneauthe first part is very likely16:08
DocScrutinizer05wow, not even google translate knows "renitent"16:09
DocScrutinizer05is Google's "Project ARA" the renamed Bloks-phone?17:38
DocScrutinizer05yep, it is17:40
sb0will that thing actually work, or is it just publicity?17:43
dos1actually, they claim that Motorola worked on Ara even before that designer drawed his idea, named it Phonebloks and announced to the world that it would be nice if such things that he drawed actually existed :P17:47
dos1they announced it soon after phonebloks became viral, to redirect some of the buzz to them for free I guess17:48
dos1tbh it's a very nice r&d project to conduct which may spawn some nice solutions17:50
dos1but I just can't see anything more to it when I look at it :P17:50
DocScrutinizer05sb0: flypaper idea18:06
DocScrutinizer05a hoax18:06
DocScrutinizer05one of those ideas that never die but never have a real life either18:09
DocScrutinizer05I'm quite sure we had that discussion about modularity in embedded already back when I worked for Openmoko 18:37
DocScrutinizer05it's really not a new idea, it's just hyped recently18:38
DocScrutinizer05thanks to the shiny new world of social media18:38
DocScrutinizer05Ron Hubbard's paradise18:38
DocScrutinizer05https://phonebloks.com/en/goals " 979,260 supporters   381,772,413 social reach   518,385 social followers  21,313,422 youtube views " 18:42
DocScrutinizer05I'm honestly tempted by the tentacled one to create a similar hoax18:43
DocScrutinizer05just have to find a way to overcome my moral and shame18:44
dos1why? just make something up, do a animated presentation about your idea and tell something like "wouldn't it be great to have something like that? support it now!"18:47
DocScrutinizer05sure, and then I don't dare to leave my apartment anymore18:48
dos1that's nothing about "moral and shame", at least at this point18:48
DocScrutinizer05after all I could run into somebody who challenges me on the idea face to face18:48
dos1then just watch the clueless mob and media treating this idea as a real project that needs some "kickstarting" to be realized18:49
dos1at *this* point it might be morally ambiguous ;)18:49
DocScrutinizer05while I'm constantly practicing, I haven't reached mastership yet regarding BOFH18:49
DocScrutinizer05but let's finish the Neo900 prototype first, then rethink this idea18:50
dos1good point :)18:50
DocScrutinizer05creating the video becomes mich easier18:51
wpwrakdos1: they already have "donations", even a whole 2445 of them: https://phonebloks.com/en/donate20:12
sb0"We will spend every penny in expanding the online Phonebloks platform"20:13
dos1wpwrak: haha! when I last checked they (he?) were all "it's about the idea, we take no donations, just spread the world so companies will know that we want it!"20:13
sb0i.e. on hot air20:13
wpwrak"it's not about money. we're not that greedy. just spread the good word."20:15
wpwrak"hmm, this server is quite expensive to run ..."20:15
sb0meanwhile, if you want to build actual OSHW, what do you get? the publicity and cash starvation we are familiar with...20:15
wpwrak"hey, you know what ? since so many you have been asking how to send us money, we thought we owe you setting up a way to do it."20:16
wpwrakq: do they publish anywhere how much they collected so far ?20:16
wpwraksb0: yeah. exactly. we're doing it wrong. the more you promise, the less you get.20:17
wpwrakor, rather, the more tangible your promises, the less you get20:18
sb0I read this book a few months ago http://www.hippiessavedphysics.com/20:18
sb0maybe I should start asking those "technology singularity" people for money, instead of only mocking them20:19
dos11) promise a pie in the sky in a way that most of people will say "hmm, seems legit"20:19
dos12) ...20:19
dos13) profit :P20:19
wpwraki mean, there's a success story out there: the church. they've been in the businness for well over a thousand years, and do they have even one satisfied customer who can report "yes, it works. i really did get to heaven !"20:19
wpwrakdos1: neo900 almost got it right - i found the idea of the "donations" brilliant. alas, you turned into boring old preorders in the terms and conditions20:21
wpwrakspeaking of which, i used the opportunity to do a little more name dropping: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/S-zum-Invite-Modell/forum-278531/msg-25121673/read/20:24
dos1nice :)20:31
dos1wpwrak: about donations - how do you think it should look like then?20:33
dos1pure donations for development, and then regular preorders at lower price, not connected to donations at all?20:35
wpwrakthat's one idea, yes. perhaps you could also make a "club" where people pay "membership fees" and discounts on what the club produces are based on their contributions.20:39
wpwrakit's tricky because there is a gray area somewhere between "no promises" and "business as usual"20:40
wpwrakyou basically want to find a way to accept "gifts" and to be thankful for them later, with a thankfulness expressed in better prices20:41
wpwrakthat alone shouldn't be a problem. i mean, any trader can make individualized prices and has very few restrictions on that.20:42
wpwrakthe difficulty seems to lie in how to express the gratitude you're promising20:43
sb0not by selling yourself to facebook, I guess20:44
wpwrakor maybe it could be a cooperative. that seems to be an extremely flexible form of running a business.20:44
wpwraksb0: well, that wouldn't be such a bad approach20:44
wpwraksb0: depends on what conditions you can negotiate. but they would, for example, be very little risk of conflict of interest on technical terms20:45
wpwraksb0: and since "everyone" is on FB anyway, they may not really care to force your customers to be there, too, if they don't want - since they have most of them already, so why expend effort on the few haters20:46
sb0oh, I was talking about Oculus Rift20:46
wpwraki know :) everybody is talking about OR ;-)20:47
wpwrakwell, for the same approach - first kickstart, then venture money, try myIDkey20:47
wpwrakif you want to watch the hate slowly bubble up, read this, from the bottom: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myidkey/myidkey-passwords-at-the-tip-of-your-finger/comments20:48
wpwrakand people weren't pissed at them finding money, but on them being late and communicating poorly. and then of course also the money became suspect.20:48
DocScrutinizer05dos1: ^^^ how about a tiny news?20:52
sb0"hurts the KS platform"20:52
sb0ah, they're in ME hell too20:54
sb0mechanical engineering20:56
wpwrakdos1: e.g., a cooperative can issue shares. the value of shares depends on the value of the cooperative. so you're not promising a fixed amount but that people will get their "fair share" in the end20:57
DocScrutinizer05you can't hand out shares for free, and when you hand them out for money then err, what's the "fair share"? you can't do that when you also wnat to do true orders later20:59
whitequarkcan't you?21:00
DocScrutinizer05if we were interested in that, we already had taken the VC road to slavery21:00
DocScrutinizer05a completely undefined and cloudy/fuzzy concept. shares offering "fair share" 21:01
DocScrutinizer05fair share of WHAT?21:01
wpwrakthe shares would be in return for something you do for the cooperative. not sure what the limitations are. for sure monetary contributions could be turned into shares, just like you can buy shares of, say, apple. (they're of course publicly traded, which is probably not where you'd want to go)21:01
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: please read a bit about shares etc before continuing on this21:02
DocScrutinizer05so WHAT?21:02
DocScrutinizer05I DO NOT WANT to share my already small marging with everybody21:03
DocScrutinizer05in the end the whole profit of the enterprise goes to those who have shares. *I* have none21:04
wpwrakin one way or another, you do :) besides, the cooperative can also pay you for things you do directly21:04
wpwrakno, you'd have shares, too21:04
DocScrutinizer05please stop that!21:04
wpwrakplus the cooperative would probably want to reinvest in R&D, which is right where you'd sit :)21:04
DocScrutinizer05it took us some 4 weeks or more to come up with sth we *thought* might work21:05
DocScrutinizer05your idea is... sinply not applicable21:05
wpwraki think the big problem in what you did is that you started to operate long before you actually got organized. and by operating alone you created facts that are were incompatible with lots of the things you realized you wanted to do later.21:06
DocScrutinizer05you obviously have no clue about share regulations and the obligations this creates for the ones doing that21:06
DocScrutinizer05you're free to think that21:07
wpwrakso the lessons i draw from your experience are: 1) properly organize the biz first, only then start operation. 2) don't do it in .de21:07
wpwrak(shares) as far as i know, privately traded shares are pretty flexible. they can have votes or no, you can even control them changing hands. they're a world apart from publicly traded shares, the sort you find on stock exchanges.21:08
wpwrakthe publicly traded ones are nasty. the privately traded ones still mean that you have some accountability, but i guess you can't dodge that no matter what you do.21:09
wpwrakand regarding letting the early adopters benefit a little from the success of the operation, don't you think that would be fair ? after all, they also share the risk that it fails. they're the ones who believe in you and who support you. it seems only correct to remember them also when some day the cash trucks start rolling in. you can still set things such that you get your mansion by the beach, the yacht, and a few ponies. maybe no 21:15
wpwrakprivate jet, though. but its noise would scare the ponies anyway :)21:15
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