#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-03-19

whitequarkwhereas FeCl3, CuCl2 and others apparently do not00:00
whitequarkthat'll explain a few things00:00
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: hm, wild idea00:36
whitequarkretrofit an used inkjet to print silkscreen right on pcb00:37
whitequarkwow, russian forums seem to be chock full of people making amazing PCBs00:39
DocScrutinizer05((retrofit an used inkjet)) seems I already suggested that?00:41
DocScrutinizer05actually mounting the inkjet print head to your CNC will be way more convenient00:42
whitequarkwell I still have no idea for sanely attaching *anything* to my CNC00:44
wpwrak(more acid research) i heard HF is fun, too. and it's not HCl, so you don't have to be afraid of it ;-)00:47
Action: whitequark slaps wpwrak around a bit with a large trout00:51
whitequarkalso I didn't mention acid even once00:51
whitequarkI actually found a fascinating basic method of etching, using copper ammonia complexes00:51
whitequarkbut I'm reluctant to check it out because 1) basic solutions degrade resist 2) it involves using about 0.5L of ammonia water00:52
wpwrakspeaking of FUN, did you know that UF4 + 3 UN + 1/2 N2 -> 4 UNF aka FUN ? :)00:52
whitequarkI can't even imagine that horrendous stench00:52
whitequarkand I don't really want to enrich uranium00:53
wpwrakhmm, i didn't find NH3 too repulsive. but maybe that was just because there weren't a lot of cats around to serve as reference00:54
wpwrak(uranium) c'mon. if you keep on talking like this, they'll revoke your russian citizenship00:54
whitequarkwpwrak: well, seems like you haven't worked with 30% NH3 then00:56
whitequarkwhen I got it I wondered how it smells. despite doing everything properly I got some experience I will likely never forget00:56
whitequarknot entirely unlike being punched in head00:57
wpwrakdunno how strong it was. this kind of critter: http://wunderbare80er.blogspot.com.ar/2011/10/kosmos-chemiebaukasten.html00:58
wpwrakbut you had to get the liquids from a pharmacy00:58
whitequarknot sure. my one is from a chemical supplier. pharmacies most likely don't sell such concentrated solutions00:59
whitequarkdiluted 5-10x (and with concentration further reduced by complex forming) the stench is entirely reasonable01:00
wpwrakhah, found it. NH3, 25%01:02
whitequarksounds about right01:05
wpwrakH2SO4 30%, HNO3 30%, HCl 20% (sissies !), NaOH 25%, and NH3 25%01:06
whitequarkso... you can smell that and not wish you'd rather be dead?01:06
whitequarkhah, concentrated HNO3. what for?01:06
wpwrakeverything from the pharmacy, almost next door, in switzerland01:06
whitequarkI thought europe regulated the shit out of chemical supplies01:06
whitequarkokay, I'm now definitely more happy about possible relocation to EU :D01:06
wpwrakyummy goodies like AgNO3, BaCl2, and K2Cr2O7 came already with the box :)01:08
whitequarkI certainly hope you read the MSDS for that :p01:09
whitequarkbtw, I just had an idea01:10
whitequarkEU and US regulate the crap out of hypophosphite01:10
wpwrakwell, it had a warning label "Attention, toxic !" :)01:10
whitequarkbut it is likely that they don't care about dilute solutions of hypophosphite01:10
whitequarkso maybe it's possible to mail that01:10
whitequarkwpwrak: (toxic) nah. well, it is, but worse, it's a very potent carcinogen01:11
whitequarkwould be sad to lose you so quickly01:11
Action: wpwrak - upon realizing what he has done decades ago - croaks instantly01:13
wpwrakHNO3 ... dunno. can't find a complete manual online :(01:14
whitequarkwpwrak: what have you done?01:24
whitequarklemme guess, bichromate volcano?01:24
wpwrakheh, that would have been fun :)01:25
whitequarkFSVO fun... *shrug*01:25
Action: whitequark tries to thermally decompose hypophosphite now01:25
wpwraki actually did experiment with a bit of volcanoes but i think i stayed with relatively safe chemicals01:26
whitequarkwow, appears to have worked01:27
DocScrutinizer05((30% NH3)) I did. Iodine Ammonia01:28
whitequarkwell no doubts here01:28
DocScrutinizer05fun when eyes start burning and tears flow01:29
whitequarkwe tried to do this in HS, but it didn't get quite dry enough or something01:29
whitequarkso it failed01:29
DocScrutinizer05and that stuff can really make you feel like suffocating01:29
DocScrutinizer05backside of usual bathroom tiles is *great* fro drying Iodine Ammonia01:30
DocScrutinizer05but you really should open all windows ;-)01:30
DocScrutinizer05for several very good reasons01:30
whitequarkwell, in HS we had a proper hume food01:30
whitequarkfume ohod01:30
whitequarkguess I really need to chew something01:30
DocScrutinizer05weirdest experience been when that stuff started smoking while drying01:31
whitequarkunreacted iodine?01:31
DocScrutinizer05I created saturated KaJ + J solution01:32
DocScrutinizer05maybe it tripped the saturation point when KaJ got diluted in Ammonia01:32
wpwrakah, and i produced a bit of air freshener at school. H2S. now i know that i got off very lightly ;-)01:32
DocScrutinizer05fun OT factoid (that maybe shows a bit about my life): 12 months ago my energy supplier calculated monthly downpay for me, based on previous 12 months, now they recalculated based on last 12 months. Difference: 1,3%01:54
whitequarknot sure what it menas01:55
DocScrutinizer05seems always-on of a few IT and LED lamps results in an amazingly constant over-all consumption. I only wonder how my 28kW waterheater comes in there01:56
whitequarkLED lamps, didn't you rant here about incandescent quite a bit?01:57
DocScrutinizer05yes, I said it's a pity they are not available anymore01:58
Action: whitequark uses fluorescent... couldn't quite find good LED lamps for my socket01:59
DocScrutinizer05when I really started ranting then about Hg-filled "energy saver" FL lamps01:59
DocScrutinizer05which go dark after a year at most, when they don't break completely before that timespan02:00
DocScrutinizer05last time my fuse tripped been from a energysaver CFL-lamp02:01
whitequarkmhm, maybe I'm less sensitive, but these CFL lamps don't burn out in a year02:01
whitequarkin a five maybe02:01
DocScrutinizer05maybe yours are better quality. Russian quality? ;-)02:01
whitequarkchinese ofcourse02:02
DocScrutinizer05well, I used up three of those critters during last 5 years02:02
whitequarkrussia maybe does only those huge lamps used in street lights, or maybe those long rods you see in industrial/government buildings02:02
DocScrutinizer05I think two failed after maybe 1000h02:02
whitequarkthey seem pretty simple to fuck up02:02
DocScrutinizer05umm, s/CFL/CCFL/ ?02:03
DocScrutinizer05Cold Cathode02:03
DocScrutinizer05though *some* of those energywaster have even heated cathodes02:04
whitequarkI know a guy who was anal enough about lighting that he bought a quartz lamp somewhere overseas, rated for I don't even know how much kW02:05
whitequarkwhen asked, he told me "I like my workplace brightly lit"02:05
whitequarkwell a week after he bought it, he got a visit from law enforcement. door torn from his hands or even broken (can't remember), him lying face down on the floor02:06
whitequarkturns out similar lamps (with different spectrum) are used to grow cannabis, and his package tripped something at customs02:07
DocScrutinizer05yeah, those HQL are fine for growing plants02:11
DocScrutinizer05but, honestly, way too bright for working02:11
DocScrutinizer05well, mine was an insane 400W02:12
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mueller-licht.de/en/lamps/energy-saving-lamps/spiral-shape-e27 comes with pre-heating, so no CC02:12
DocScrutinizer05they need to do this since they use amalgam instead of liquid pure Hg02:13
DocScrutinizer05kinda works02:14
DocScrutinizer05IOW that one shines since 2 years 24/7 almost02:14
DocScrutinizer05with ~5 on/off sycles per day02:14
DocScrutinizer052 Phillips, 2 Osram, and one Pleomax are waiting for getting discarded02:16
DocScrutinizer053 orsram02:16
DocScrutinizer05makes more than one per year02:17
DocScrutinizer05anyway, any detals about that etching magics?02:46
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: working on it right now04:47
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: in some 40 mins I'll take pcb out of plating bath04:50
whitequarkwe'll see then04:50
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: you know what is most impressive04:54
whitequarkI didn't use any copper brightener whatsoever, neither I added acid or NaCl to the bath04:54
whitequarkyet the copper layer seems to be pretty smooth so far04:54
whitequarkI mean, I basically go against any established principles of copper plating04:54
whitequark(because I'm lazy and I don't have any acid right now)04:55
whitequarkI wonder why current has grown from .15mA to .25mA over last 30 mins05:07
whitequarkok, should be done05:54
whitequarkseems like it worked \o/05:56
whitequarkwow, I didn't even expect this05:56
whitequarkhow the fuck do I take a photo of an 1mm hole?!05:58
whitequarkthat is, um, a rather odd result06:03
whitequarkactually there was so much copper plated that holes became too small!06:03
whitequarkseems like I need a more even layer of activation solution on board06:06
whitequarkwpwrak: DocScrutinizer05: https://code.google.com/p/rtstepperemc/07:20
whitequarkbasically exactly what I wanted to do with EMC207:20
whitequarkthough I wonder if it even works07:20
wpwraksounds sweet :)08:19
whitequarkwpwrak: how do you deal with burr around drilled holes in pcbs?09:22
whitequarkI have a rather extreme problem with it09:22
whitequarkin fact some of the raised edges I have are almost 1mm in height09:22
wpwrakwhitequark: burr ? in holes ? never heard of it :)11:03
wpwrakat least not for the small ones, for vias. may be different if i made huge holes11:04
wpwrakburr is usually favoured by dull cutting edges. maybe weak fixtures may also be a factor (though mine aren't exactly fortresses)11:06
whitequarkno, around holes11:31
whitequarklifted copper around them on both sides11:31
whitequarkhrmm... I may have had some limited success with plating11:36
whitequarkbut solder sure as hell isn't pulled by capillary effect into those holes11:36
whitequarkmeaning they're unsuitable for actual work.11:36
whitequarkguess I need to figure out the proper bath finally.11:36
whitequarkinteresting though; while the plated layer does come off in flakes, it requires quite some muscular effort to do so11:37
whitequarke.g. I would say the force is comparable with force required to tear off factory laminated copper, if you have a lifted corner11:37
whitequark(in flakes) i.e. it nevertheless bonds to itself much stronger than to underlying copper or dielectric11:38
wpwrak(drill) what Z speed do you use ?11:40
zrafawpwrak: yes, but in libswd/ we have cc25*.c which is built by Makefile and used by ben.c . So I needed to comment those parts of ben.c so I can build the swd software to try with our mcu12:19
zrafawithout CC* stuff 12:20
wpwrakwell, you could just leave it in and ignore it. it doesn't get in the way.12:29
kristianpaulwpwrak: What waveform generator do you have?16:57
wpwrakpicotest g5100a17:29

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