#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-03-03

DocScrutinizer05nice! glowing gue00:13
DocScrutinizer05anyway there must be a lot more of possible EL reactions that you could exploit for that00:16
DocScrutinizer05I recall age old glass thingies, square with maybe 10*10cm, with a hole for a dial axis in the center, and two wires that allowed the thing to glow green when connected to 220V~00:18
DocScrutinizer05probably it originally been designed for 110V@400Hz or sth like that. I guess it been from either tanks or airplanes00:18
nicksydneywpwrak: have you ever soldered this kind of package http://sigma.octopart.com/10122332/image/Atmel-ATMEGA88-20MU.jpg ?02:09
nicksydneyis the way soldering it similar to QFN ?02:09
wpwrakyes, it's the same sort of package, just with marginally easier access to the pads02:17
nicksydneydid you use iron or hot air ?02:23
wpwraki just use the iron these days. my hot air pencil is even broken but i didn't bother to replace it02:37
wpwrakeven components that have their pads under the case without proper lateral access can be soldered with an iron as long as the pads are close to the edge and can be enlarged a little beyond it. just heat the pad on the pcb and the pad on the chip will get enough heat to make a good enough solder joint.02:40
nicksydneyhot air pencil .. never heard about that before02:40
wpwrak(heat the pad) this works, for example, for crystals in small packages02:41
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: geezz02:43
wpwrak(hot air pencil) the one i have was not terribly useful. the airflow is too fast. not sure why it worked so poorly. i only used it for tricky components like these crystals, but once it broke, i simply figured out that i could do without as well ;-)02:43
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you'll like the videos linked in this article: http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/foren/S-Divide-et-impera/forum-275798/msg-24870028/read/03:01
DocScrutinizer05why do you think I'd like those?03:59
DocScrutinizer05they are exactly what I expected04:00
kristianpaulnice ear thingy04:23
CYB3RWhat is wrong with jzboot? http://pastebin.com/RRZTcG4E08:27
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix one icon of the GCW skin (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/eae715618:05
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: FTDI just made a... thing http://www.heise.de/hardware-hacks/meldung/Neue-Mikrocontroller-Architektur-von-FTDI-2132319.html19:50
whitequarkI'm a bit lost as to what are they trying to achieve19:50
whitequark8051 and a proprietary 32-bit coprocessor? wtf?!19:50
wpwrakso you read my comment ;-)19:52
DocScrutinizer05well, everybody is allowed to build their own processors19:52
DocScrutinizer05I still like the atmel AT89xx51 chips19:53
whitequarkwpwrak: your comment?19:55
whitequarkoh, I see19:56
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: sure, they are, but that's not very useful to enduser19:56
DocScrutinizer05maybe you just don't have the matching usecase at hand19:57
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: the 8051 FTDI has one thing: 8051 compatibility19:59
DocScrutinizer05I think a plethora of kbd matrix drivers and whatnot are based on 805120:00
wpwrakyeah, i didn't mention that because it's a) implicit, b) a mixed blessing. it's good because you can get a lot of compilers and tools for it. it's bad because the only Free one is sdcc.20:01
whitequarkgcc can't 8051?20:02
wpwrakas far as i know, it can't. isn't designed for 8 bit20:03
wpwrakat least that was the situation a few years ago. dunno if architectural changes since have made things easier in that regard20:04
whitequarkarchitectural changes in gcc? :)20:04
wpwrakwell, SSA for one20:05
whitequarkisn't SSA there at least for a decade?20:06
whitequarkah, I see, we have a bit of a different notion of "a few years"20:06
wpwrakaccording to wikipedia, sdcc is still the only one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8051_compiler#C_compilers20:07
whitequarkI see20:07
whitequarkI've seen a halfbaked port of LLVM to AVR, demonstrating that LLVM easily accomodates 8bit architectures20:07
wpwrakbut .. there appear to be projects that ported gcc as well. hmm. http://sourceforge.net/projects/mcs51gcc/20:08
whitequarkit wasn't generating very good code, but then again it was someone's weekend project20:08
wpwrak"no files". maybe it was more a plan than a project20:08
wpwraksees the the number of pointers is more of a problem than being 8 bit: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2000-01/msg00231.html20:10
DocScrutinizer05meh! 8051 programs are written in assembler!20:10
whitequarkavr-gcc works just fine20:10
whitequarkand it has two address space20:10
whitequarkagain, LLVM has an intrinsic notion of address space for quite some time ;)20:11
whitequarkmeaning you won't have to hack optimizer or something. LLVM originally uses that for GPUs, but no reason it can't be used for 805120:11
DocScrutinizer05those coders. HAH! c-compiler for a maybe 1kB of program storage. Why not c++?20:12
whitequarkwhen used right, C++ won't blow up code size, and it could well be applicable in this case20:13
whitequarkit's just that almost no one knows how to use C++ right, and reading any books on it will surely sabotage your ability rather than enhance it20:13
whitequarkit is quite telling that almost the only team I know of who uses C++ right is also the one which implemented a C++ compiler20:14
DocScrutinizer05and you're probably absolutely right regarding all of that. Incl *program*-storage. RAM is even more sparse on 8051 class MCs (some don't have any real one), amd c++ is a real hog on data structures, with all the opbjects and late binding and whatnot20:17
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: exactly, you'd basically be required to only use those C++ constructs expanding during compile time20:17
whitequarksome example on how it would be useful: think data types with units. never again use millimeters where you expect meters20:18
whitequarkthat could expand to a simple int or float.20:18
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and use global vars only and whatnot20:18
whitequarkbtw I think modern 8051s aren't as sparse, you'd get at least 4k of RAM and maybe 16k of program storage20:19
whitequarkI agree that with <512 or maybe 1k of RAM you're much better off with asm20:19
whitequarkugh. my remailer wants a "Brand" of noname chinese endmills. apparently they're only used to people buying clothes and shit like that20:19
whitequarkthat's japanese, no?20:20
whitequarkno, they want it in english20:21
DocScrutinizer05tell them there's no english translation20:22
DocScrutinizer05it's a name after all20:22
whitequarkand they crosscheck it  with the invoice20:22
whitequarkin the end all this shit is for customs20:22
larscWhitequark Industries20:23
whitequarklarsc: at a point I considered registering a company solely that I could deal with all the vendors which apparently bear intense hatred for private individuals20:24
whitequarklooking at the amount of bureaucracy and money required to do that quickly dissuaded me20:25
whitequarkat some point "taxes" turn into "extortion", and russia is far ahead of that point20:26
larscyou just need to make enough money, at some point you don't have to pay taxes anymore ;)20:28
whitequarkI would surely like to make that much money :p20:29
DocScrutinizer05I just wondered what UN blue-helmets were meant for23:13
wpwraktarget practice ?23:14
DocScrutinizer05aren't those UN troops regularly used when a country has no working internal authorities and conflicts between groups of the people or with neighbors need to get settled?23:16
wpwraki guess they're more a reminder that whoever sent them could have sent real soldiers instead23:17
DocScrutinizer05and wouldn't be any attack to those blue-helmets be an obvious and gross offense against "the good ones"?23:17
wpwrakwell, really equipped for combat. they're of course real enough as soldiers.23:17
wpwrakwhat's when they either withdraw or call in the cavalry23:18
wpwrakif they get seriously attacked. sometimes they have "real" troops hanging out nearby.23:19
DocScrutinizer05I think Russia couldn't justify sending their own troops "to protect their people" when blue helmets are already there to do that23:19
wpwrakare any blue helmets foolish enough to venture into this ?23:20
DocScrutinizer05I don't think you discuss that stuff with your wife at home, then decide "meh, I don't wanna go there"23:21
DocScrutinizer05afaik UN troops are from normal troops of members of the UN23:22
DocScrutinizer05and the power that those UN troops are supported with gets determined by those who send their own troops to that mission, together with the mission commander who got appointed by UN. No?23:25
DocScrutinizer05basically shooting at blue helmets means you start a war against the world. Maybe I'm naive23:26
DocScrutinizer05when the mission control says they need patriot missiles to enforce a no-fly-zone, they will get them. When they need tanks, they get tanks23:29
wpwrakhmm, i don't think they would go into serious combat missions23:30
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall they did23:30
wpwrakdefend themselves against smaller attacks, maybe. but they wouldn't even have the coordination to go to war on their own23:30
DocScrutinizer05so you think Russia would just nuke them away and then happily go on occupying ukraine?23:31
DocScrutinizer05obviously showing whole world the finger and telling them "fuck off, what do you wanna do against it?"23:32
wpwrakrussia would veto their deployment23:33
DocScrutinizer05maybe russia has no saying when they are one of the conflicting parties23:33
DocScrutinizer05how could those who are the target of an activity have a word in allowing such activity?23:34
DocScrutinizer05they could contribute troops to the blue helmets23:35
DocScrutinizer05or they refuse to23:35
DocScrutinizer05whatever they like23:35
wpwrakmaybe this helps to clarity who gets sent to such missions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeeping#Participation23:36
DocScrutinizer05but mission control will not be a russian general23:36
DocScrutinizer05I don't see any ... point in that. I just see that you seem to argue based on average of previous examples23:40
DocScrutinizer05nothing in there seems to suggest that EU troups couldn't act as blue helmets in Ukraine23:41
DocScrutinizer05I however agree that all western nations will be too much chicken to do the right thing23:44
whitequark(the text says "chew-chew" and not what you think, though the vague meaning is likely deliberate)23:49
DocScrutinizer05ukraina's hair is a bit weird23:54
DocScrutinizer05kinda chinese, no?23:54
whitequarkum, no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupryna23:55
DocScrutinizer05well, anyway seems importing stuff gets much harder for you. sorry for that23:57
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