#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-02-26

wpwrakhmm, with scope and signal generators converging, i wonder how long until proper multimeters will also be integrated. the higher end DMM already crawl, feature-wise, in the direction of scopes (frequency measurement, trend plots, etc.),04:52
wpwrakwhile for example agilent have a DVM mode in some of their scopes. so there seems to be a slow convergence.04:52
wpwrakthe next step would then to integrate a power supply. these are of course already converging with multimeters ;-)04:53
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ooooh I just had a much better idea about silkscreening09:18
whitequarksee, my problem with stencils is that the ink really tends to disperse over much wider area than I want it to09:19
whitequarkand I don't see any easy way to solve this, less of a rigid frame, some pressing mechanism and maybe that's not even enough09:20
whitequarkthe other problem is that my engraving bit is too huge and 125µm film appears to be too thick09:21
whitequarkwell, that can probably be solved with work, but this idea might prove to be much simpler09:21
whitequarkso basically: apply dry film resist over mask. expose a negative image of silkscreen on it. use a spatula to spread ink09:22
whitequarkacrylic is resistant to bases, hence I would be trivially able to remove resist with NaOH afterwards without damaging the imprint09:22
whitequarkand film is 50µm thick ’ just about right amount of ink09:22
whitequarkthe only question left is whether NaOH would strip cured solder mask. I hope no, but lemme test it.09:23
whitequarkalso the transport company will deliver hypophosphite tomorrow \o/09:28
DocScrutinizer05I really never thought you could apply paint like solderpase to a stencil. Use air spray gun09:29
whitequarkwell, that's how silkscreening works! I thought I'd try to duplicate it09:30
whitequarkthought about trying air spray, too, maybe I should09:30
whitequarkanyway I want to try the resist idea09:31
whitequarkit sounds just crazy enough to work09:31
whitequarkessentially it would be exactly like silkscreening, except without the mesh09:31
whitequarkthis vaguely reminds me of planar process :] how much of a resolution early ICs required, 200µm? I can do 100!09:37
DocScrutinizer05200um ? you might be right but it sounds like LOL09:38
whitequarkwell exactly. you could make these with a needle and a steady hand!09:39
whitequarkhrm. for some absurd reason all text on illustrations in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_integrated_circuit is in russian09:41
nicksydneywhitequark: maybe you would like to try something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP7BKHU4WUc09:43
whitequarkwhat for?09:43
nicksydneycostume :)09:44
Action: whitequark ponders at http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/329/142209:46
whitequarkno scale :(09:47
nicksydneyDIY soldering station https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbI8-c7ROE#t=32 :)09:58
whitequarkhm, figured out scale of that pic. smallest feature is about 40µm10:00
DocScrutinizer05yeah, 40µm sounds a bell here10:05
DocScrutinizer05200, not10:05
DocScrutinizer05my personal "rule" IC went from um to nm10:06
whitequarkwell sure. I was just trying to remember what's the biggest ICs ever10:06
DocScrutinizer05does thinfil count? ;-P10:07
DocScrutinizer05see murata10:07
DocScrutinizer05though murata does more thinkfilm I think10:08
whitequarkthat's some weird shit10:08
whitequarkwell it's not silicon, so doesn't count :p10:09
DocScrutinizer05hehe, thought you'd say that10:09
whitequarkso, stripping test10:12
whitequarkit appears like mask does strip in NaOH but only where it wasn't attached very well10:12
whitequarkso this seems like a possible solution. should try it!10:12
whitequarkah and acrylic doesn't mostly give a fuck, though it does soften a bit10:13
whitequarklikely due to water rather than NaOH10:13
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: is all this your work for master thesis?10:41
DocScrutinizer05it for sure would excel for such10:41
nicksydneywpwrak: fancy this http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/25/freescale-kinetis-kl03/?cid=social19129354 ?10:41
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: no, but I like the way you think :310:42
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: spraying sounds like a good idea. and an airbrush is something fun to have anyway :)12:08
whitequarkwpwrak: so you think I need to get an airbrush? or rather an aerosol can?12:09
DocScrutinizer05the latter is the lowcost limited-options variant12:10
wpwraknicksydney: cute, but needs USB :)12:11
DocScrutinizer05though, I actually seen spray cans that had a screw-able lid and you would fill them with your paint, close, and pressurize with a second can of propellant12:12
wpwraknicksydney: i'd rather see the pour their genius into making KL2 chips with more memory in QFN-32 packages12:12
wpwrakwhitequark: airbrush has more control than a can. of course, it's a more money on the table to get going. also needs a bit of experimenting before you'll get it right. if you want just acrylic, about any airbrush setup will do. if you also want epoxy, you'll need a relatively powerful compressor (at least so i've been told - didn't try to feed mine with epoxy)12:14
whitequarkwpwrak: wait, airbrushing epoxy? O_o12:15
wpwrakepoxy paint is much tougher (wear-resistant) than acrylic paint12:15
whitequarkoooh epoxy paint, interesting12:15
wpwraki think epoxy paint is what they use on fridges and such12:16
wpwraknot sure what's used on cars. maybe there, too12:16
whitequarknaw, epoxy degrades under UV12:17
whitequarkis that... an enormously scaled up cnc mill?12:48
whitequarkfrom this post, demonstrating how a russian supercar (whatever that is) "marussia" is manufactured: http://kak-eto-sdelano.livejournal.com/140608.html12:50
whitequarkpretty interesting actually12:51
wpwrakhave you already asked them if you can move in ? :)12:54
whitequarkyeah, it is: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9760/78948279.fc/0_89d13_26a4ad2f_XL.jpg12:54
whitequarkgrmbl. my laminator broke.14:43
whitequarkits rollers are supposed to be hot, and motor cold. it works in exactly opposite way for some reason.14:43
wpwrakis that the one you reconfigured to run at an elevated temperature ?14:55
whitequarknope, didn't change temperature14:59
whitequarkfortunately it is about as complex as a brick15:05
whitequarkunfortunately it is not as reliable...15:05
whitequarkthermal fuse said bye-bye :(15:06
whitequark... why is one mounting hole of it is screwed, but another is *riveted*?!15:08
whitequarkoh it is not a rivet, it is a screw15:14
whitequarkrather, it was a screw, once. now it's a mutilated corpse of a screw15:14
whitequarkI regret buying a laminator for $815:15
wpwrakqual E.T. hath its price15:18
whitequarkboasts "Q.C. passed" As if15:22
wpwrak3, 10, or 13 of v.i. on http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=Pass15:31
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: excellent chance to replace that stupid thermofuse/thermostat by a proper electronic temperature regulator15:36
DocScrutinizer05nfc what to do about motor though15:37
DocScrutinizer05are you sure this isn't operating at overvoltage?15:37
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I dunno, I kinda feel ambivalent about the whole thing15:37
whitequarkit's 110V 60Hz rated and I'm running it at 130V 50Hz15:37
whitequarkbecause I was dumb and bought US shit *again*15:38
whitequarkI swear, I can't remember of existence of other standards at all, especially when they're as moronic as whatever US has for standard15:38
DocScrutinizer05US satndards usually are "up to you. it *might* work"15:39
DocScrutinizer05in Taipei it seems every apartment has its own local 110V->220V transformer15:40
DocScrutinizer05for the whole flat (minus the lights)15:41
DocScrutinizer05something *very* odd with electricity in Taipei15:42
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: or was it the other way round?15:42
wpwrakmaybe you have both scenarios :)15:57
whitequarkokay, hm, it appears to have worked15:58
whitequarkthe resist thing15:58
whitequarklol nope. the ink is much better attached to the resist through the sides than the mask underneath16:06
whitequarkalso NaOH *does* strip the mask rather well16:06
wpwrakspray paint, here we come16:19
wpwrakactually, how did you make the stencil ?16:20
wpwrakor did you try paint + mask ?16:20
wpwrakthat was the first try, when you complained about the paint being to liquid ?16:23
wpwrakah, i thought that was with a stencil. how would the liquidity of the paint matter if you16:26
wpwrak're using a mask ?16:26
whitequarkum, there's some confusion16:29
whitequarkI did try #1 yesterday, with a stencil out of 125µm PET film. paint was too liquid and it spread over too big an area.16:29
whitequarkI did try #2 today16:29
wpwrakah, not it makes sense. okay. stencil then. how wide did you make the openings ?16:31
whitequarkI took an existing stencil for solder paste, since I didn't have gcode generation for silkscreen ready16:34
whitequarkso... 0.8mm?16:34
whitequarkI think it's the fact that I couldn't make it adjoin the PCB surface very closely16:35
wpwrakoh, pretty big. lemme see what i used in atusb ...16:35
wpwrakadd glue :)16:35
whitequarkand what would prevent glue from filling the very openings I'm trying to paint through?16:36
wpwrakstencil #1 would. paint is stencil #2 ;-)16:36
wpwrakhmm, atusb silk line width is 0.1 mm16:37
whitequarkyeah, and I also can't mill that out with my cnc16:38
wpwraklet's see what the fab did with this ...16:38
whitequarkhmm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/18091716795416:41
wpwrakfab made the silk lines about 0.2 mm wide16:50
wpwrak(UV paint) Shipping to: Worldwide ... Excludes: kinda everyone ;-)16:54
whitequarkdon't care, they ship to my remailer in US16:55
whitequarkhm... okay, I'll try the aerosol. That'll have to wait until tomorrow though, the shop is closed17:09
whitequarklol what18:15
whitequark$1000 for a mill built out of polyethylene, with 140mmx115mmx35mm working area18:16
whitequarkand they promise .01mm repeat positioning accuracy, which is... just bullshit19:05
rohwell.. maybe they do. but its a 'soft crud' only device anyhow.19:08
rohwax, simple pcb19:09
whitequarkhow would they do it with a LDPE frame?19:09
rohfr1 only19:09
whitequarkwait, FR1 only?!19:09
rohits a toy. no clamps existing.19:09
rohthey use some doublesided tape for everything they cut19:09
whitequarkoooh fuck19:09
rohif you wanted a mill.. this isnt it. its nice for beginners in electronics and mechanics i guess... maybe for schools19:10
rohbuilding simple led blinky things or so19:10
rohwe want a pcb mill too.. but never wanted to invest the 1.5-2.5keuro minimum for a proper setup19:11
rohwe -> our hackerspace19:11
rohwe got a mill, but cam is hard... and its low-rpm only (3k max)19:11
whitequarknono, a guy I know bought it19:12
whitequarkand I'm telling him it's crap19:12
rohalso ordering pcb from china is too cheap. doublesided 5x5cm 10pcs 1.6mm with printing and solderstop for 10euro19:12
whitequarkit very quickly rises up if you want bigger pcbs, I've considered that19:13
whitequarklook higher at the chart19:13
whitequarkalso, 20 day lead time is... not something I want19:13
wpwrakwhitequark: "nono" is his name or what you told him ? :)19:15
whitequarknono is my response to the roh's absurd thought that I wanted that mill19:16
wpwrakother ideas for silk screen: if you don't mind the color to be black, toner transfer. toner transfer may also be an alternative way to get a mask.19:17
whitequarkI've already discussed toner transfer mask here. it's shit and doesn't really have any of the properties you'd want from a mask19:18
whitequarknot scratch-resistant, not very solder-resistant, not pretty, etc19:18
whitequarktoner transfer silkscreen could definitely work, if the black text is recognizable on the substrate19:18
whitequarkit's not quite on a deep-green solder mask19:19
wpwraktrue. toner certainly isn't shiny white ...19:19
wpwrak(toner mask) i mean as mask before applying the paint19:20
whitequarkbut how I'd remove toner afterwards? acrylic is damaged by acetone.19:20
wpwrakhmm, yes, finding a thinner that dissolves one but not the other may be tricky19:21
whitequarkI have high hopes for aerosol19:22
wpwrakdidn't you mention also getting paint you heat to cure ? the sort of stuff used on pottery ? that could work. mask, paint, heat, dissolve rest19:22
whitequarkit doesn't involve pushing through stencil so it is highly likely to work19:22
whitequarkwait, "rest" ?19:22
whitequarkhow'd I heat it selectively?19:22
wpwrakheat all19:22
wpwrakor get a laser engraver, yet another option :)19:22
wpwrakmount a joerg killer laser on your mill :)19:23
whitequarkwell, see, I bought that paint you heat19:23
whitequarkbut 1) it appears absolutely the same as the regular paint19:23
wpwrakah. so acetone and friends remove it ?19:24
whitequarkwell, it's acrylic-based19:24
wpwrakanother idea: if the paint is too thin, mix it with something. flour, talcum, etc.19:27
whitequarkthere's a paint thickener in that shop, but I think the core of issue is in another thing19:27
whitequarkwhen you apply pressure to silk, it just flexes locally and still adjoins the board closely19:29
whitequarkhowever this PET film is rather hard, so if you apply pressure to it and it flexes for some reason... it'll detach from board. meaning you push paint under film.19:29
wpwrakhmm, you could try to make it convex/concave. then it would itself maintain a pressure against the board. well, may need some experiments to figure out things19:31
wpwrakmaybe you could also coat it with something rubberish, which would act as buffer and seal19:32
wpwrakof course, more experiments :)19:32
whitequarkconvex/concave would mean it won't adjoin the pcb on all surface...19:32
wpwrakwell, you'd mount it such that the corners are tallest. so if you clamp them down, the whole thing should generate a downward force everywhere19:33
wpwrakbut of course, too much curvature and you'll get waves ... or cracks19:34
whitequarkthen corners would be FUBAR though19:34
wpwrakmake it bigger than the pcb19:34
whitequarkhmmm, I don't think PET film flexes like that19:35
whitequarklike, it wants to flex either horizontally or vertically19:35
wpwraksuspend it, on the corners, then gently apply hot air ?19:36
whitequarkthat'll be really hard to do reliably without morphig those tiny .2mm features19:37
wpwrakit only has to flex, not melt :)19:37
whitequarknaw, not a good idea.19:38
whitequarkI'm more thinking along the way of a proper silkscreening frame, except to keep PET film in it19:38
whitequarkthink I could mill something like that19:38
wpwrakwell, if you don't need very fine lines, spring-mount a pen that draws in white (like the stuff used for correcting) on your mill and just plot :)19:39
wpwrakor, more fancy, mount a small brush and let the mill tip it into your paint :)19:39
Action: DocScrutinizer05 likes the part about 2joerg kiler laser"19:39
Action: DocScrutinizer05 likes the part about "joerg killer laser"19:40
DocScrutinizer05actually, have you considered inkjet printing?19:40
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: on what?19:40
DocScrutinizer05rather, with what19:41
DocScrutinizer05piezo printheads might work just fine with some acrylic paints19:41
DocScrutinizer05or maybe use black rubberfoam and a laser and build a stamp from that19:43
whitequarkif I had a laser, I'd just cut proper .1mm features on stencil :p19:44
DocScrutinizer05or use a PCB and do copperplate print? ;-)19:45
DocScrutinizer05sound like a nice idea to me19:45
whitequarkcopperplate print?19:45
DocScrutinizer05you can even use extra thick copper19:45
wpwrakor go creative. fill the paint in little bags, get really angry, and throw them at the pcb. that's called "action painting" :)19:46
wpwrakthe result won't convey much meaning, but it will certainly look interesting19:47
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: oooooh gravure19:48
whitequarkI love those images so much when I find them in books or wherever19:48
DocScrutinizer05copperplate printing is simple and seems pretty easily established19:48
whitequarkpractically my favorite form of art/illustration19:48
whitequarkno, just favorite19:48
DocScrutinizer05you etch away where paint shall go, then fill the "trenches" with paint ant press the whole thing on your target19:49
DocScrutinizer05for silkscreening should "just work"19:50
DocScrutinizer05use 70um PCB19:50
whitequarkwherever would I get that? no clue19:50
DocScrutinizer05or even thicker if you can get19:50
whitequarkwell, I can electroplate it :p19:50
DocScrutinizer05ohwell, I'd start tests with 35um then19:50
DocScrutinizer05after all an even plane surface is most important for success19:51
wpwrakwhy etch if you can mill ... and get a little extra depth from the "overshoot" ?19:53
whitequarkwhy even use copper clad laminate then? just mill the epoxy19:53
whitequarkwpwrak: you're an expert on weird shit. whatever the hell FR-1 is? can't find it19:54
DocScrutinizer05any sufficiently rigid and plane material will do19:54
whitequarktoilet paper in epoxy?19:54
whitequarkno, sounds too strong. toilet paper in wood glue?19:54
DocScrutinizer05I guess19:54
wpwrakbakelite ? must be something before my time :)19:54
DocScrutinizer05no epoxy though19:55
DocScrutinizer05epoxy is too modern19:55
wpwrakepoxy is way too modern19:55
wpwrakyeah :)19:55
wpwrakwood and a bucket of water, for the Fire Resistance ? :)19:55
DocScrutinizer05nfc what they used in the 30s 40s19:56
wpwrakasbestos ?19:56
DocScrutinizer05paper with some shitty resin19:56
DocScrutinizer05check out "pertinax"19:57
whitequarksome roman emperor19:57
DocScrutinizer05FR1 = cheap, FR2 = standard19:58
DocScrutinizer05paper + phenol19:58
wpwrakoh, there's "cheap" pertinax, too ? i'm impressed19:58
DocScrutinizer05indeed, me too19:58
whitequarkalso, formaldehyde19:59
whitequarkI think if RoHS should restrict *something*, it's that19:59
whitequarkit's a carcinogen19:59
wpwrakbut you can build german cars with it :)19:59
wpwrakso the HCl won't get you ;)20:00
DocScrutinizer05"unsrer rostet, eurer fault"?20:01
whitequarkwell, DDR cars. I'm not surprised. if DDR cars were about as good as Russian ones...20:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: ;-)20:01
DocScrutinizer05actually Trabbi was pretty modern20:02
DocScrutinizer05regarding the hull 20:02
DocScrutinizer05if only they had taken glass fibre instead of old rags20:03
whitequarkbtw: I found out how higher-end CNCs of same vendor perform Z setting20:17
whitequarkI'll be able to easily make such thing20:17
wpwrakbah, manual clamp. that's cheating20:18
whitequarkwell... you'd have to manually clamp pcb anyway,20:18
wpwrakif the bit is isolated from the table, you could just use the table as zero20:18
whitequarkthe table has grooves however, and I suspect is not perfectly flat (need to check that closer)20:19
whitequarkwell, not "not perfectly flat", rather "not mounted ideally parallel to XY plane"20:19
wpwrakthe the table isn't flat, this method will also produce flaws20:19
whitequarkoh, right.20:20
wpwrakand regarding grooves, you know where they are, so just avoid them :)20:20
wpwrakbtw, did you solve the Z wrongness ?20:20
whitequarkhahahaha, amazing thing I just found. CNC6040 sell from ebay at $158520:20
whitequarknow these guys are reselling literally same machine, with their name and at $3331: http://agranat-avia.ru/product_4.html20:21
wpwrakshipping, taxes and such ?20:21
whitequarkshipping is included in ebay price20:22
whitequarkfreight, at nearly 60kg20:22
wpwrakin argentina most things you buy locally are also 2x what you'd pay in the US. there are of course about 50% import taxes, sales tax (not sure if that can be deducted from the import taxes), shipping, customs processing fees, vendor's margin, ...20:23
wpwrakto .ru ?20:23
whitequarkto anywhere20:24
whitequarkthey ship from HK20:24
whitequarktaxes... well20:24
whitequarkhaha, their (othermachine) argument for FR-1 is "FR-4 is harmful when inhaled"23:07
DocScrutinizer05I bet that's correct, at least when you inhale a fullsize eurocard23:13
whitequarkwell, according to MSDS it is slightly irritating23:15
whitequarkbut recommending a fullblown carcinogen instead of a slightly irritating substance because your machine couldn't mill the latter is a whole new level of hypocrisy23:16
whitequarkI would even say that is more than slightly irritating *rimshot*23:17
DocScrutinizer05inhaling any object of eurocard size is more than slightly irritating23:20
DocScrutinizer05I dunno if it causes cancer though23:20
DocScrutinizer05probably you won't live long enough to develop cancer23:21
whitequarkphenolformaldehyde resins tend to emit both of these components, afaik it was used extensively in furniture (PF-resin-bound wood)23:21
whitequarkand that was bad enough those were banned *in Russia*23:21
whitequarkatleast I remember that fact from my childhood and I didn't have a whole lot of non-RU discussion around23:22
DocScrutinizer05formaldehyde is banned pretty much everywhere now23:22
whitequarkooh, right, *that's* why there are no sources for FR-1 except some shady alibaba guys23:23
DocScrutinizer05I still recall using shampoo which praised the formaldehyde content on boilerplate23:23
DocScrutinizer05no, regular shampoo23:23
whitequarkI can't think of anything else warranting addition of formaldehyde23:24
DocScrutinizer05makes your hair stronger23:24
DocScrutinizer05or somesuch23:24
whitequarkwas there a toxic-chemical-craze, just like radiation-craze?23:24
whitequarkwell you know, in the beginning of 20th century there was a radiation craze. "drink radium salt 20 times a day and all illnesses will disappear", somesuch23:25
wpwrakmakes your hair stronger ... assuming that it kills you before your hair gets weak again23:25
whitequarke.g.: http://blog.nyhistory.org/get-me-a-radium-highball-new-york-and-the-radium-craze/23:26
wpwrakside effects: the cancer therapy may cause hair loss.23:26
DocScrutinizer05there also were inlays for shoes that had some substance that when getting wet produced formaldehyde, wearing this stuff in your shoes for two days allegedly cured stinkfoot23:26
DocScrutinizer05btw you know that methyl alcohol is poisonous because it metabolizes to formaldehyde?23:29
DocScrutinizer05just like ethanol metabolizes to acetaldehyde23:29
whitequarkand antidote is ethanol, 'cause it competes as an alcoholdehydrogenaze substrate23:30
whitequarkleaving more time for your poor liver to process resulting formaldehyde23:30
whitequarkeven if that stuff wasn't discussed on my freshman year in uni, I *am* russian after all :p23:30
wpwrakwhitequark: you've seen this one, haven't you ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1gksqqhLU23:30
DocScrutinizer05that's why the standard therapy for methanol poisoning is drinking large amounts of alcolhol, so the liver can't metabolize so much methanol per time unit, reducing formadlehyde concentration in body23:31
DocScrutinizer05I see you been faster in typing23:31
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: now that sounds nice. go to the hospital, tell them you drank some methanol, get booze all night on doctor's orders ;-)23:32
whitequarkwpwrak: nope, never did23:32
DocScrutinizer05this happens every day23:32
whitequarkwpwrak: (hospital) I'm sure they have a standard procedure for such cases, with sole purpose of making your life hell23:32
whitequarke.g. perform a gastric lavage just for the sake of it23:33
DocScrutinizer05yes, they do23:33
DocScrutinizer05and you don't drink the alcohol but rather I.V.23:33
whitequarkthat gets you drunk more efficiently23:33
wpwrakwhitequark: i see that the spirit of Yezhov hasn't died yet :)23:34
DocScrutinizer05but no fun either23:34
whitequarka homemade version of that would be an alcohol enema, tampon or just go to bathhouse and pour vodka on hot stone, therefore absorbing it through lungs23:34
whitequarka positive aspect of it is that you get less hungover and don't smell of last night's liquor23:35
whitequarka negative aspect of it is that it's impossible to evacuate via puking, therefore if you overdose it's rather fatal23:35
whitequarkand yes, we discussed all that in classes23:35
wpwrakvery pragmatic :)23:36
whitequarkI honestly don't even remember context anymore. we did discuss a lot of fun things though23:36
whitequarkeffect of meth and heroine on dopaminergic system (brutal)23:36
whitequarka *lot* of various neurotoxins and their biological activity23:37
DocScrutinizer05dopaminergic system?23:37
wpwrakin russia, you learn for life, not just for school ;-)23:37
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: reward/motivation system of the brain, composed of special neurons with receptors for dopamine23:38
DocScrutinizer05hmm, and what's the effect?23:38
whitequarktaking drugs causes the neurons to die and brain's own dopamine output to diminish (homeostasis; if you have receptors stimulated externally, internal means of production will shut down)23:39
whitequarkas a result it's more or less depression for the rest of your life23:39
DocScrutinizer05o.O cool¡23:40
whitequarkit's a rather abridged version, of course, but I hope it conveys the gist of it23:40
Action: wpwrak imagines whitequark, after DocScrutinizer05's question, running down to the dealer at the next street corner, get some collection, toss some pills, run up, and describe the effect in scientific terms :)23:40
whitequarkdissecting my own brain would be rather complex23:40
whitequarkplus there's a *lot* of literature describing exactly what wpwrak wants to hear23:41
whitequarkboth scientific and amateur23:41
DocScrutinizer05yeah, worst thing in that regard been a liver resection23:41
wpwraki'm sure the right drugs will give you enough introspection to manage that without even a skull drill :)23:41
whitequarkoh? liver?23:41
DocScrutinizer05some med student, at home. Then halfway drove to hospital since he ran unto some trouble I don't recall anymore23:42
whitequarkworst thing I heard about, a doctor on polar station performing appendectomy on himself, since no one else could23:42
whitequarkthink he was russian too (not sure)23:42
whitequarkyep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Rogozov23:43
wpwrakdies ... at the age of 110, in otherwise perfect health ?23:43
whitequark>Rogozov died in 2000, aged 66, in Saint Petersburg, Russia, from lung cancer.23:43
wpwrakhmm, should have quit the radon sooner23:44
whitequarksmoking, more likely23:44
DocScrutinizer05all the radiation there23:45
whitequarklung cancer. lungs aren't the most sensitive body part to radiation23:45
Action: DocScrutinizer05 still wonders why the neurons would die23:46
whitequarkah, no, actually could be radiation23:46
whitequark50/50 lung/leukemia23:46
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: overstimulation23:46
whitequarkyou're right to be surprised, that's not how neurons normally work23:46
whitequarkbut dopaminergic ones are a bit special23:46
whitequarkI don't quite remember all the details already23:46
whitequarklemme see if I still have the textbook23:47
DocScrutinizer05sounds a bit like the scientific version of "LSD causes cancer"23:47
whitequarknope I don't have it23:48
whitequarkno, it's rather well-confirmed23:48
DocScrutinizer05I mean, shouldn't such severe side effects get mentioned in all opiate analgetica wash papers?23:49
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty sure about methamphetamine, it's proverbially turning your head into a swiss cheese23:51
DocScrutinizer05but opiates and opioids are used in medicine since maybe 100 years now23:52
whitequarkI may be confusing something, that lecture was in 200923:53
DocScrutinizer05I seem to know L-dopa (used to treat parkinson?) causes further damage to CNS so eventually it doesn't work anymore23:55
whitequarkhmm, that sounds wrong. L-dopa is a precursor to dopamine, it helps when your dopaminergic neurons degrade naturally23:56
whitequarkbut it doesn't really cure the underlying reason of that degradation (genetics in case of parkinson)23:56
whitequarkoh, no, parkinson's cause is still unknown?23:57
whitequark"The drawback of levodopa treatment is that it treats the symptoms of Parkinson's (low dopamine levels), rather than the cause (the death of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra)."23:59
whitequarkokay, I can't find sources for what I said above23:59
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