#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-02-24

DocScrutinizer05yeah, or built from special electrostatically relaxed steel00:06
DocScrutinizer05with an ESD absorber mantra handwritten on the device by a guru00:07
DocScrutinizer05http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000ND965E/  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kaltlicht-Lupenleuchte-Lupenlampe-22W-125mm-5-Dioptrien-Glaslinse-weiss-/151229352408?  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Grosse-Lupenleuchte-Lupenlampe-19x15-7cm-Glaslinse-3-20-Dioptrien-2x-9W-/151169336943?ebayCategoryId=8573700:17
DocScrutinizer05LOL or that one http://www.bueromarkt-ag.de/lupenleuchte_eschenbach_vario_led_25x,p-27771,l-94511215,pd-b2c.html00:18
unclouded_hello all.  does anyone know of any open hardware 3S balancing LiPo chargers available either as a kit or built up?00:52
nicksydneywpwrak: ping !04:40
whitequarkhmm, turns out I was not eager enough with NaOH05:47
whitequarkI left the board in it overnight as a test and now it truly passes the water break check05:48
whitequarkcompared to other one which seems to be cleaned of organic contaminants well enough for resist to attach well but still not entirely05:48
whitequarkwpwrak: so I added H2O2 to persulphate07:26
whitequarkso far it makes a lot of gas bubbles appear07:26
whitequarkwell, on the board surface07:27
whitequarkit doesn't though look like etching is faster07:32
larscIt feels like you've been etching 24h/d for the last couple of days :)08:04
whitequarklarsc: well, when I want something solved, I solve it.08:13
whitequarkwithout any regard to irrelevant minutae like life, sleep, etc08:14
whitequarkhttp://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-24/on-water-break-test/08:20
whitequarkI especially wonder what's up with the color: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c71d286ce61f4981c05cc826576acfa59d5e36a2.jpeg08:21
wpwrak"well, when I want something dissolved, I dissolve it" :)08:28
whitequarkhehe08:32
whitequarkok. I finished etching and H2O2 doesn't make a iota of difference08:32
whitequarkexcept some cool visual effects08:32
wpwrakhow strong is your peroxide ?08:33
whitequark3%08:36
whitequarkI poured an entire 100ml bottle there08:36
wpwrakwell, 3% isn't very strong. you poured mainly water. so if the reaction already had an oxidizer before, the difference should be minor08:40
whitequarkyeah, you're right here08:41
wpwrakyou could go to stronger peroxide, though. e.g., with HCl, 3$ is pretty tame. with 35% the copper is gone in a few seconds (while the acid happily boils and fumes)08:42
whitequarkyeah, I think I'll place a second order at that reagent vendor, buy proper peroxide and those organic copper salts to test various activation methods08:43
wpwrak35% is great to refresh an old solution without adding a lot of water, though. a few ml in maybe 1-2 dl and it's good to go again08:44
whitequarkwpwrak: by the way, defects from yesterday seem to be insufficient toner density08:46
whitequarkbecause today they were at pretty much same places08:46
whitequarkso it's a defect of photomaster. not a defect of exposition, since they;re not systematic08:46
whitequarkhttp://i.imgur.com/Jm0DNxa.jpg08:48
whitequarknow we're getting somewhere08:48
whitequarkI still don't quite like how they're... trapezoidal in section08:49
wpwrakyes, that's weird. what pitch is that chip ?08:51
whitequarktqfp08:51
whitequarkso... 0.5mm?08:52
wpwraknaw, should be 0.8, maybe 0.6508:54
wpwrakbut check the data sheet :)08:54
wpwrak(or your cad files :)08:54
wpwrakbtw, this is toner transfer + hcl: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3262.JPG08:54
whitequarkit's an atmega8...08:54
wpwrakthe holes are horribly off, barely usable. but the etching went well.08:55
whitequark0.8, yes08:55
whitequarknice etching. is that 170µm copper?08:55
wpwrakmine is 0.5 mm, 0.2 mm traces08:56
wpwrakjust a random board from a local shop. dunno how much copper08:56
whitequarktraces seem much thinner on picture08:57
whitequarkwell... do you have a caliper?08:57
wpwrakthey may be thinner. not sure how precisely toner transfer reproduces the edges09:00
wpwrakcaliper yes, but no partially covered board :)09:01
wpwrakanyway, the results are about the same with a board that has knows specs ... looking up the ref ...09:01
wpwrakhttp://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/prototyping-products/prototype-boards-unperforated/2359509?k=%20PC44-ND09:03
wpwrakso that's 1 oz09:03
whitequarkhmm09:03
whitequarkno visible trapezoid there09:03
wpwraklike this (alas, already tinned): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/solder-qfn.jpg09:03
wpwrakhere's a more detailed picture: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_2809.JPG09:05
wpwrak(this is the 0.8 mm board, 0.5 mm pitch on the QFN, 0.2 mm nominal trace width)09:06
whitequarkdoesn't seem like you have that trapezoid, no09:06
wpwrakclearance is also 0.2 mm though i like to keep it a bit larger. else, i sometimes get shorts09:07
wpwrakyou traces look more "gnawed on". as if the acid had been working on them for too long09:07
wpwrakalso the wavy outline gives that impression09:07
whitequarkwpwrak: 45 minutes09:10
whitequarkso yeah09:10
wpwrakoh dear :)09:14
wpwrakwhen i let my acid go too slow, it also starts to develop problems09:16
wpwrake.g., this board took almost half an hour (estimated - i didn't look at the clock) and suffered some over-etching, made worse by having a lot of long traces: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3311.JPG09:18
wpwraksince it's otherwise completely undemanding, i used it anyway, but you can see that i had to patch it up at a few places09:18
wpwrakside view, with better contrast: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3307.JPG09:20
whitequarkhmm09:21
whitequarkpretty well for an overetched board09:21
wpwrakin this case, my acid is getting too diluted and i would need too much peroxide to reactivate it. so for the next board, i'll move about half of the acid to long-term storage. then the rest will be easier to maintain.09:21
wpwrakwell, you see the broken traces ... :)09:21
whitequarkbtw, do you not use resist because it's hard to get through customs?09:22
DocScrutinizer05the copper around the pre-drilled holes looks terribly rotten09:22
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: on which board?09:22
wpwraki just didn't like the complex process. i think materials should be available locally.09:23
DocScrutinizer05http://i.imgur.com/Jm0DNxa.jpg09:23
wpwrakyes, the vias holes are crap. actually, that's not a problem of the etching but of the drilling - i was too lazy to change bits, so i just did them with the endmill, which is too large for that09:24
wpwrakbit since they're all very trivial anyway, ...09:24
wpwrakah, his board :)09:24
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: true. I screwed up with drilling the holes a bit, and poor etching exacebrated it09:24
whitequarkhad built-up edge09:24
DocScrutinizer05either no drilling before etching, or at least seal holes with e.g. wax after drilling09:25
wpwrakah no, now i remember. it wasn't the endmill but a wider drill i had used for the pogo pins. anyway, same result - the vias ended up half-eaten09:25
DocScrutinizer05it looks like under-etching combined with poor attachment of PhRe09:25
whitequarkno, photoresist was attached very well there: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c12e9fe54b906ec16f677083b841994349b1e46d.jpeg09:26
whitequarksee, it covers holes entirely09:26
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i drill before etching and as you can see, there isn't much damage09:26
whitequarkI drill before etching because it's much easier to position stuff and precisely mill out the board09:26
whitequarkyou get positioning markers for photomaster for free09:27
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: etching fluid will reach copper around holes from backside, through hole09:27
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: sure09:27
whitequarkI know that09:27
DocScrutinizer05and it might lift off PhRe09:27
DocScrutinizer05when hole "capped"09:28
wpwrakmy board don't seem to mind. not sure if toner transfer adds some magical protection. in any case, the holes are not "tented" by toner09:28
whitequarkI think it's maybe easiest to cover single-sided boards with photoresist on the backside09:28
wpwrakmaybe it's that, lifting off the resist09:28
whitequarkand expose it indiscriminately09:28
whitequarkwpwrak: naw, this was the board soaked in NaOH for 12 hours09:28
whitequarkphotoresist attachment is *excellent*09:28
wpwrakurgh :)09:28
whitequark12h was probably excessive, but 10 min doesn't cut it for sure09:29
DocScrutinizer05the fluid will apply forces when entering the hole and hiting the PhRe membrane capping the holes09:29
DocScrutinizer05this can lift off PhRe09:29
whitequarkwpwrak: see: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c71d286ce61f4981c05cc826576acfa59d5e36a2.jpeg09:29
whitequarkboard on right: really clean. board on left: not so09:30
DocScrutinizer05also PCB copper isn't exactly smooth and plane anymore, around holes09:30
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yeah, I see; and I now look at photo closely and it seems copper edge penetrated resist09:30
whitequarkI need to do something with it...09:31
wpwrakwhitequark: btw, the trace width seems correct within the resolution of the image. i get 253 pixels for 7*0.5 mm, which would make 0.2 mm 14.5 pixels. i measure around 15-17 pixels. also, the image resolution isn't very good.09:37
Action: DocScrutinizer05 wonders where been that info about etching time and under-etching09:40
DocScrutinizer05might even have been about chip manufacturing09:40
DocScrutinizer05and how thex manage to either get trapezoid or perpendicular walls of their traces09:41
DocScrutinizer05they*09:41
DocScrutinizer05there happen a few pretty non-intuitive things09:42
DocScrutinizer05they can even etch inverse trapezoid, though it's mostly useless. don't ask me how they do that09:43
DocScrutinizer05maybe gas protecting the material that gets etched? gas originating from etching process and moving up?09:44
whitequarkhmmm09:45
whitequarkno clue09:45
DocScrutinizer05or thermal fluid convection, covering material way up with a film of "inert" fluid?09:45
DocScrutinizer05anyway I seem to remember: the longer the etching takes, the worse the trapezoid problem09:46
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/157206  >>... aber man kann ja durch die schnelle Aetzgeschwindigkeit einen hoeheren Aetzfaktor (weniger  Unteraetzung) erwarten und somit feinere Strukturen erzielen.<<09:49
whitequarkyep, the trapezoid appears due to concurrent etching in perpendicular and parallel direction to copper09:51
DocScrutinizer05http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FdDiXwGH8UkJ:http://www.ti2000.de/pub/ti2000/7.Semester/Elektroniktechnologie/Antworten%2520Elektroniktechnologie.doc%2BPCB+unteraetzung&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&ct=clnk09:52
DocScrutinizer05>>Durch Konvektion und  damit annähernd konstant gehaltenen Ätzwirkung, kann es zu größeren Unterätzungen kommen<<09:52
whitequarkhmmm09:55
DocScrutinizer05o.O http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/09:55
whitequarkresult seems pretty poor. look at the traces they highlighted09:56
DocScrutinizer05>>Undercutting is practically non-existent, and the resist stays in place<<09:59
whitequarkit seems mainly due to the speed of process10:00
DocScrutinizer05>>method I prefer to use is laser printing onto a piece of Pulsar's dextrin paper and << o.O10:04
whitequarkand a certain someone even calls toner transfer *simpler* :p10:07
whitequarkseems like dextrin paper is quite popular for toner transfer10:07
whitequarkI think dextrin is watersoluble?10:07
whitequarkah, it's basically purified starch10:07
viricis it possible to use dmcrypt on the ben?10:08
whitequarkexpect it to be *very* slow, as ben has no hw-accelerated crypto and not a fast CPU10:09
viricbut how to get the NAND as a block devie?10:10
viricdevice10:10
viricwon't it be overkill?10:10
viricit's like using the nand "block device equivalent" with ext4 or so10:11
whitequarkwell, you can place a file on a NAND filesystem and use -o loop10:14
whitequarkbut it's not efficient and kills the NAND quicker10:14
viricexactly10:14
whitequarkokay, all finished: http://i.imgur.com/7z8XPO7.jpg10:23
whitequarkI probably should've cleaned the board better before attaching mask10:24
Action: DocScrutinizer05 just pondered about replacing the photosensitive roller in laserprinter by the PCB with PhPos10:27
DocScrutinizer05nice hw mod to a laserprinter10:27
DocScrutinizer05basically should be pretty straight forward to design10:28
whitequarkum... doesn't sounds simple to me at all10:29
whitequarkfirst it's the wrong frequency, you'd need to redo its optics completely10:29
whitequark1) it likely uses glass -> uv-opaque10:29
whitequark2) it's all designed to handle freq it uses. others will refract in a different way thus distorting the picture10:30
whitequarkso you'd need to make a custom frensel lens10:30
whitequarkat least10:30
DocScrutinizer05just rip out all unneeded gear from laserprinter. Cover photosensitive roll with a 0.2mm of rubber. move laser scanner unit a ~1mm away from the roller10:30
DocScrutinizer05ooh, wrong laser color. Right10:30
whitequarkthough that for sure would be a cool hack10:31
DocScrutinizer05:-/10:31
DocScrutinizer05a pity10:31
Action: DocScrutinizer05 heads out for more coffee10:31
whitequarkiirc toxicity limits for coffee is about 100 cups per day10:32
whitequarkhave you ever came close? :D10:32
DocScrutinizer05yeah once10:35
whitequarkwow10:36
whitequarkseriously?10:36
DocScrutinizer05I created a normal coffe cup full of ultra espresso made from ~300g of coffee powder - the machine was designed to produce a whole can of coffee the espresso way, I used it for a cup10:36
DocScrutinizer05felt pretty sick after drinking that10:36
DocScrutinizer05I been 18 or 19 when I did that10:38
DocScrutinizer05so qite a while ago10:38
DocScrutinizer05quite*10:38
DocScrutinizer05attribute it to my mind developing phase, according to what we discussed yesterday ;-)10:40
whitequarkthat's probably even more than 100 cups10:40
whitequarksure, sure10:40
whitequarkI can understand doing crazy stuff, I'm just amazed at the magnitude10:40
whitequarkhonestly impressed10:40
DocScrutinizer05yeah, me too10:41
DocScrutinizer05;-d10:41
Last message repeated 1 time(s).10:42
whitequarka bit reminds me of this russian guy: http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Mustang-Wanted.jpg10:42
DocScrutinizer05it's really amazing I'm still alive10:42
whitequarkthere was a gif somewhere...10:42
pcercueisome guy died not so long ago after eating caffeine10:43
DocScrutinizer05when I was 4 or 5, I walked from one window to the next - in the rain gutter. We lived in top floor of that building back when10:44
DocScrutinizer05seems I must've been kinda natural born crazy 10:44
whitequarkI knew a cat who liked to jump from one window to an adjacent balcony10:45
whitequarkabout five times that ended with a plunge down 4 stories10:45
DocScrutinizer05for me it luckily didn't ;-)10:45
whitequarkthat cat eventually died after five traumatic injures, ovary cancer, failed pregnancy, infection and who knows what else, when I was 1910:46
whitequarkand I'm pretty sure the cat was actually older than me10:46
whitequarkshe was a street cat, taken in at several months. Guess she needed good genes to survive in RU :)10:47
DocScrutinizer05cats have 9 lifes10:47
DocScrutinizer05seems yours used up all of them finally10:48
whitequark19 is waaaay higher than usual cat life expectancy though10:49
whitequarkthough it is not unheard of humans who smoke, drink and generally have fun, and then live to 105 years10:50
Action: DocScrutinizer05 still can't let go on the laserprinter mod10:50
whitequarkhm10:50
whitequarkidea: correct for distortion in software10:50
DocScrutinizer05just pondered that10:50
whitequarkrefractory distortion. you can make a grid pattern, scan it and then apply affine transform10:50
DocScrutinizer05get a proper 1W blue laser instead of the IR10:51
whitequarkUV laser maybe?10:51
whitequarkI think there are UV semiconductor lasers10:52
whitequarkwaitwait, laser printers use IR lasers?10:52
DocScrutinizer05also maybe worth to first check how much this effect of changed optical properties of lenses from changed color +really* kicks in10:52
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: dunno10:52
DocScrutinizer05I think I seen "IR-Laser" label in some manual last week(?)10:53
DocScrutinizer05maybe they use red10:53
DocScrutinizer05IR is cheaper and usually stronger 10:54
DocScrutinizer05I know of UV LEDs, but not of UV lasers10:54
whitequarkah, seems it's ongoing research as of 201310:55
DocScrutinizer05~400nm is what I seen10:55
whitequark"Nitride semiconductors offer the potential to realize a compact UV laser source. Three approaches will be described: (1) InGaN VECSEL for frequency doubling, (2) photo-pumped AlGaN lasers (to 237 nm), and (3) AlGaN laser diodes."10:55
whitequark400nm is exactly what you need10:55
whitequarkI use 395nm10:55
Action: DocScrutinizer05 plays with his 405nm laserpointer10:56
DocScrutinizer0510mW, Class IIIb :-o10:57
whitequarkthat should work fine10:57
whitequarkresist isn't too selective10:57
DocScrutinizer05thought as much10:57
whitequarkthough, hmmm, UV diodes have a bit of smooth spectrum10:58
whitequarkwhereas lasers usually have it rather narrow (duh)10:58
whitequarkI wonder if that may affect it10:58
DocScrutinizer05damn! Wavelength:   445nm nominal center11:00
DocScrutinizer05http://www.wickedlasers.com/arctic11:01
whitequarkI'd still test it11:05
whitequarkdo you have resist?11:05
whitequarkmy resist is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B0Z8AZ6 and LEDs http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RJQR3M11:05
DocScrutinizer05beam distance 0.25lux: 55 km  :-D11:06
DocScrutinizer05I don't own that 445nm laser11:07
whitequarkoooh I've found very simple way to make good stencils out of PET film11:09
whitequarkI just need to cover it with masking tape11:10
whitequarkthen crank up feedrate and it comes pretty amazing with my sturdy engraving bits11:10
whitequarkno fragile .2mm endmills11:10
whitequarkI've *no idea* how to take pictures of holes in transparent film11:11
DocScrutinizer05LOL11:11
whitequarksmth like http://i.imgur.com/eC0K9K6.jpg11:13
whitequarkthere's 1-2 holes which are in focus11:14
DocScrutinizer05http://www.wickedlasers.com/lunar   Wavelength:   405nm11:14
whitequarkask them to test lasers on resist?11:15
DocScrutinizer05dunno.11:17
DocScrutinizer05anyway that lunar has beam divergence 0.7mRad, the 445nm has 1.5mRad11:17
DocScrutinizer05(stencil) niiiice11:18
whitequarkmasking tape is *great*, it just gets all the gore from tool11:19
whitequarkand absorbs11:19
DocScrutinizer05you might want to reduce spindle RPM11:19
DocScrutinizer05plastic is nasty11:20
whitequarkit's pretty low already. 6k according to my calculations11:20
whitequarkin no way verified in practice11:20
DocScrutinizer05clue a piece of scotch tape to the shaft of tooling bit, listen to it knocking against a steady object, guess frequency11:21
DocScrutinizer05glue*11:21
DocScrutinizer05or stick, even11:21
whitequarkor just make the IR measurement thing11:22
whitequarksince I want spindle speed display anyway11:22
whitequarkand possibly feedback but not sure if that can work11:23
DocScrutinizer05RPM of course massively depends on your tool, but e.g. for "normal" drills (a few mm dia) you want to use RPM of maybe 60011:23
whitequarkwell... normally this thing spins up to 20k rpm11:23
DocScrutinizer05sure, which is fine for cutting hard stuff11:23
whitequarkthis corresponds to feedrate of about 700-800mm/s with slotting say with an 1mm TiAlN endmill11:23
DocScrutinizer05not so for elastic thermoplast11:23
whitequarkright11:24
DocScrutinizer05you don't want that stuff to melt under your tool11:24
whitequarklooking at it, doesnt seem like it melts11:24
whitequarkoooh, I think another factor is I use good film this time11:25
DocScrutinizer05I see tiny indications that it started partially to melt11:25
whitequarkprevious film was shit and melted at very low t° as you can remember11:25
DocScrutinizer05but that might be a misconception11:25
DocScrutinizer05hard to tell from that photo11:26
whitequarkyeah, I'll try to take a better one later11:26
DocScrutinizer05just saying - try to use low RPM with plastic11:26
whitequarkbtw, how bad is expired solder paste? this one should've been used in 2011 and wasn't stored in fridge11:26
whitequarkPbSn11:26
DocScrutinizer05when result sucks, think of RPM11:27
DocScrutinizer05hygroscopic11:27
whitequarksealed package11:27
whitequarka syringe used in industrial machines I guess11:27
DocScrutinizer05prolly irrelevant for home usage11:27
DocScrutinizer05I dunno if some chemical reaction deactivates flux components over time, in paste11:28
whitequarkhttp://i.imgur.com/PqBvpPH.jpg11:31
whitequarkseems ok?11:31
DocScrutinizer05niiiiice11:35
DocScrutinizer05component placement markers would've been handy maybe11:37
DocScrutinizer05might get away with it for that particular PCB11:38
DocScrutinizer05without it, rather11:38
DocScrutinizer05though for placing the atmel it's still a bit tricky without guiding markers11:39
whitequarkwell... I wonder how can I do 'silkscreen'11:40
DocScrutinizer05if in a pinch, write into copper 11:40
whitequarkhttp://i.imgur.com/g6IyLE3.jpg11:43
DocScrutinizer05are you lightnig fast or just cheating?11:45
whitequarkfast11:45
whitequarkI post pictures strictly as I take them :)11:45
DocScrutinizer05atmel pads lft upper seem offset11:46
DocScrutinizer05already seen offset in paste stencil11:46
whitequarknot quite, this chip has bent pins, I missed it11:47
DocScrutinizer05ooh11:47
whitequarkhowever it has good contact still11:47
DocScrutinizer05sure11:48
whitequarkokay... need to populate thru-hole and hook up a programmer11:48
whitequarkand that's all!11:48
DocScrutinizer05PCBA almost hides the bumpy ugly traces :-)11:49
whitequarkI started making this PCB almost exactly 5 hours ago11:49
whitequarkso that's pretty nice RTT11:49
DocScrutinizer05indeed, and quite shiny result11:49
whitequarkif I figure a way to make silkscreen, it would be basically just like factory stuff11:50
whitequark... and I think I just thought of a way to make it11:50
DocScrutinizer05some chinese crap can go weep in a dark corner, but they gonna sell their stuff nevertheless11:50
whitequark(chinese crap) not sure what was this remark about11:50
DocScrutinizer05toner transfer with color toner?11:50
whitequark(toner transfer) color laser printer costs a fortune, and just to print white toner?... meh11:51
DocScrutinizer05(chinese crap) was about some boards from china that look really ugly compared to yours11:51
whitequark(china) so I'm not the lowest link in food chain. encouraging :)11:51
whitequark(silkscreen) well, I could just use... silkscreen!11:52
DocScrutinizer05yellow toner, b&w printer11:52
whitequarkproblem with toner is, it's not really heat-resistant, scratches easily, doesnt like solder/flux and all that11:52
whitequarksame concerns about "solder mask" out of toner11:52
DocScrutinizer05right11:52
DocScrutinizer05soooo11:53
whitequarkso, silkscreen. I need to find a sheet of something with tiny holes or maybe woven11:53
whitequarkthen I can just use my existing resist, run it all through laminator. when heated, resist basically flows like a viscous liquid11:53
whitequarkso it will flow into those holes11:53
DocScrutinizer05silk maybe ;-)11:53
whitequarkwont survive 120°C laminating11:53
DocScrutinizer05err, laminate?11:54
whitequarkwell, attaching resist11:54
DocScrutinizer05with heat?11:54
whitequarkyep. I don't want to bother with liquid resist, it's quite horrible to use. dries for a long time, hard to get nice layer, nasty chemicals11:54
DocScrutinizer05I guess I have no idea what you're planning11:54
whitequarkwell... like regular silkscreen, with some modern polymer instead of "silk" (neoprene?) and dry film resist pushed into matrix with my laminator11:55
whitequarkthen I expose and develop it, then like in regular silkscreen, I push white ink through holes11:55
DocScrutinizer05what the heck is dry film resist?11:55
whitequarkeh?!11:55
whitequarkI'm telling you, I use this resist: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B0Z8AZ6/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=111:55
whitequarkit comes in sheets11:55
DocScrutinizer05ooh11:56
DocScrutinizer05I see what you mean11:56
whitequarka sheet of resist, covered by PET film on one side, polyolefin on another11:56
whitequarkyou peel polyolefin, apply to PCB, run it through laminator11:56
whitequarkso resist will melt and attach very tightly11:56
DocScrutinizer05why don't you use a stencil?11:56
whitequark... genius11:56
whitequarkthank you11:57
DocScrutinizer05lol11:57
whitequarkyeah I'd need a thinner engraver. but yeah that should work11:58
whitequarkand I can buy acrylic paint in like a hobby store next to my house11:58
whitequarkthat is amazing, I'm so going to do it today11:58
DocScrutinizer05I rather wonder which varnish you wanna use11:58
whitequarkvarnish?11:58
DocScrutinizer05white paint11:58
whitequarkthink acrylic would be fine11:58
DocScrutinizer05should work11:59
whitequarkhttp://www.hitempcoatings.com/coatings/HT500V.html this one says it's stable up to 464°C11:59
whitequarkso regular one would likely sustain half of that, right?11:59
DocScrutinizer05good enough11:59
whitequarkgah! I got pb-free solder on my iron, now can't use it with low temperature :/12:01
whitequarkdamn rohs12:01
whitequarkthat thing won't even come off12:01
DocScrutinizer05Color stability to 500°F (260°C)12:02
DocScrutinizer05I think I heard you shouldn't use normal tips for Pb-free12:03
DocScrutinizer05Pb-free seems to eat tips12:03
whitequark!!12:03
DocScrutinizer05"diluting" it with 60/40 should work12:04
whitequarkyeah it did12:04
whitequarkhttp://imgur.com/UPyt7Sk12:05
whitequark... I don't have any AA batteries! damn.12:07
whitequarkrealized I own an adjustable psu12:17
DocScrutinizer05apelete: http://imgur.com/UPyt7Sk :-)12:22
whitequarkhmm?12:23
whitequarkalso said PSU is severely overheated to point where it won't turn on, so I'll write a test program meanwhile12:23
DocScrutinizer05PSU overheated?12:23
DocScrutinizer05how comes?12:24
whitequarkyeah, I guess--it's really hot at the bottom and doesn't want to turn on12:24
whitequarknot "I'm burned" hot but "this shouldn't be THAT hot" hot12:24
whitequarkit was plugged into CNC control block which draws 1.5A@30V while *idle*12:24
whitequarkfor a hour12:24
DocScrutinizer05ooh12:25
DocScrutinizer0545W for nuttin is a tad... steep12:25
whitequarkalso wtf, X stepper is warm but Y and Z aren't12:25
whitequarkI smell a broken stepper board... somehow12:25
DocScrutinizer05unless you keep steppers at hold12:25
whitequarkseems like it just dumps current into X stepper for some absurd reason12:26
whitequarkit sure as hell shouldn't treat it specially12:26
DocScrutinizer05yeah12:26
whitequarkprolly some of the stepper board components are fried. more blind diagnostics :/12:26
DocScrutinizer05dang12:27
DocScrutinizer05first check input12:27
whitequarkmm, input is DIR+STEP12:27
DocScrutinizer05make sure it's not your PC driving shit to the controller12:27
whitequarkso it's idle, then there's nothing on STEP12:27
whitequarkand DIR12:28
DocScrutinizer05a high impedance speaker (piezo) is a really handy tool for such checks12:28
whitequarkor a scope :)12:29
DocScrutinizer05when you don't have a scope hand<y12:29
DocScrutinizer05heck, I debugged my first selfmade computer with a piezo earphone and an LED12:29
whitequarkhardcore :D12:29
apeleteDocScrutinizer05: nice shot, very clean soldering. I'll get there someday...eventually12:29
DocScrutinizer05apelete: I just thought you have a nice example how to solder wires to pads there12:30
whitequarkapelete: sarcasm? picture is blurry as hell12:30
whitequarkI'll get you a better one in a minute12:31
DocScrutinizer05don't even dream of getting rest of soldering like whitequark did, he's using solderpase and stencil12:31
whitequark*g*12:31
apeletewhitequark: not sarcasm, wishful thinking ;-)12:31
apeleteDocScrutinizer05: are the wires hand soldered ?12:31
DocScrutinizer05yes12:32
apeletewow12:32
DocScrutinizer05:-)12:32
DocScrutinizer05I don't think whitequark managed to solder them any other way ;-)12:32
whitequarkthink I could manage it with my feet, after some practice12:33
whitequarkapelete: now *this* is a nice picture: http://i.imgur.com/HqqMcsZ.jpg12:33
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and an excellent tutorial "how to solder wires to pads"12:34
apeletewhitequark: what kind of techniques and tools are you using to achieve that ?12:34
whitequarkapelete: can you ask more specifically?12:34
whitequarkI mean, I could start to explain one by one but that'll take a few hours12:35
whitequarkdo you mean those wires?12:35
DocScrutinizer05well, I can tell you're most likely right-handed12:36
apeletelooks like the strand is comforatably sitting in the drop of tin, and the rubber is not even burned near the end of the strand12:36
DocScrutinizer05the result of good tools and material and right temperature12:37
whitequarkapelete: so... the wire was pre-tinned, it's a lead of a battery holder. however if you tin it very quickly and with iron at say 190°C, you can manage to have rubber intact12:37
whitequarkthe PCB pads were pre-tinned too, here it was chemical tinning process. A factory-made PCB would have it pretinned or with some other good coating. A self-made PCB you really need to tin yourself well12:37
DocScrutinizer05you always should tin the pad, then just reflow wire to it12:38
whitequarkthen I just dropped a small drop of PbSn 60/40 solder there, so it made a nice small bulge12:38
DocScrutinizer05I called it bead12:38
whitequarkthen I held the wire on top of that bulge and heated it with iron for no more than 1-2s12:38
DocScrutinizer05my words :-D12:39
whitequarkin this case I had iron turned up to almost 300°C12:39
apeletecould you tell me more about the tinning process for the pads, what are you calling "chemical tinning process" ?12:39
whitequarkI bought a liquid called "liquid tin" locally, it's some salt of tin according to label12:39
DocScrutinizer05apelete: you don't want to know about that - now12:39
whitequarkI put the well-cleaned board into it for 30 minutes--again according to label--and tin laye grows on exposed copper12:40
whitequark*layer12:40
DocScrutinizer05it's advanced stuff you don't need12:40
whitequarkit looks a bit ewww (dark grey), but solder attaches to it really really well12:40
DocScrutinizer05nothing flux and good solder wire couldn't do12:40
whitequark^ that. I used to use RMA flux and PbSn solder before12:40
whitequarkit's more work and you have to clean the flux, but you'll be 100% fine with that12:41
DocScrutinizer05ack12:41
apeletewhitequark: okay, so once you have your drop of solder on the pad, you just push the wire into it with the iron ?12:41
whitequarkone thing to remember: don't be greedy on flux12:41
whitequarkbetter to drown board in flux than put not enough12:41
DocScrutinizer05don't think 2drop" - that's missleading12:41
whitequarkapelete: I placed the wire *on top* of the bead, then gently pushed it down with my fingers12:41
whitequarkwhile holding12:42
whitequarkthen I started to heat it and when solder begins to flow to the wire due to surface tension--I remove iron12:42
whitequarkand wait several seconds to let solder solidify12:42
whitequarkyou really mustn't move the wire immediately after removing iron or you'll get bad contact12:42
DocScrutinizer05this is important! don't move things while solder curing!12:42
DocScrutinizer05not a micron12:43
whitequark*nod*12:43
apeleteI think I need practice and a magnifying glass to see things closeup12:44
DocScrutinizer05thus you usually prefer a setup where you don't need to *hold* the wire (or other component). Humans can't NOT move12:44
DocScrutinizer05it needs extreme practice to solder a wire you#re holding by hand12:44
whitequarkyup, I sometimes clamp the wire with something12:45
apeleteif there's already a drop of solder on the pad and the wire is tinned, I should only need two hands: one holding the iron, and other pushing the wire12:45
apeleteright ?12:45
DocScrutinizer05I'd almost say it's impossible to do it right12:45
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: that's a bit exaggerated...12:45
DocScrutinizer05you need flux and a clamp so the wire stays on top of bead without your hand holding it12:46
DocScrutinizer05so you basically should get the job done using only one hand12:46
DocScrutinizer05trying to work two-handed is not exactly simple12:47
apeleteDocScrutinizer05: I actually needed three hands yesterday...12:47
DocScrutinizer05then you can't achieve a good solder point12:47
DocScrutinizer05nobody can, in that situation12:48
whitequarkneed this: http://a.tgcdn.net/images/products/zoom/third_hand_parts_holder.jpg12:48
whitequarkI have exactly that thing as you can see12:48
DocScrutinizer05yup, I think I also have exactly this12:48
wpwrakthose things many times don't really help either. if the wire is very flexible, you can't push it down properly with this12:48
DocScrutinizer05haven't used it for quite a while12:49
apeleteyes, was thinking about buying something similar12:49
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: that's the trick12:49
whitequarkwpwrak is right about flexible wire. also that may not be convenient to hold by hand, since it can get hot very quickly12:49
whitequarkso, I use curved tweezers for that12:49
whitequarkwtf, PSU still won't come on12:49
DocScrutinizer05borked12:50
DocScrutinizer05:-/12:50
wpwraki've given up on these critters and only use them when i'm running out of hands. the solder joints still seem to be stable enough :)12:50
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ... no12:50
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: with years of practice...12:50
whitequarkborked is the cable12:50
whitequarksomehow the PSU has a weird variant of standard PC 3-prong connector12:50
whitequarkwhich accepts about half of cables I own12:51
apeletetweezers ! that would have help yesterday, discovered that my fingers were way too big ;-)12:51
Action: DocScrutinizer05 has roundabout 20 tweezers12:51
DocScrutinizer05all shapes and types12:51
DocScrutinizer05some of them cost 20 bucks12:52
DocScrutinizer05other 20 a buck12:52
DocScrutinizer05both work, in the particular case where they fit12:52
DocScrutinizer05I found a number of contraptions quite useful, where you solder two of those crocodile clamps to the ends of a 1.5mm^2 copper wire, and bend that thing the way you need12:54
DocScrutinizer05clamp one croc to the PCB edge, other end holding wire to solder12:55
DocScrutinizer05mad useful12:55
DocScrutinizer05also fine to make short connections12:56
DocScrutinizer05like: attach a LED+resistor to a 9V block, or the like12:56
DocScrutinizer053..10cm length of wire are fine12:56
DocScrutinizer05usually 5cm is what I like best12:57
whitequarkguys guys http://i.imgur.com/BkOR3ke.jpg12:58
DocScrutinizer05\o/12:58
apeletenice13:00
DocScrutinizer05what's that monster in the background?13:00
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: left of trnaformer13:00
DocScrutinizer05oops13:00
whitequarksoldering station13:00
DocScrutinizer05ETAB13:00
DocScrutinizer05o.O13:00
whitequarkhttp://www.rlocman.ru/i/Image/2009/04/10/16.jpg13:00
DocScrutinizer05with a quite massive hose?13:01
whitequarkhot ai13:01
whitequark*air13:01
DocScrutinizer05mhm13:01
DocScrutinizer05the remote fan variant13:01
DocScrutinizer05mine has fan in hand piece13:01
DocScrutinizer05handpiece a tad larger, no hose13:02
whitequarkah13:02
DocScrutinizer05ATTEN 858D13:03
DocScrutinizer05http://www.electronic-products-design.com/geek-area/great-tools/electronic-assembly/atten-858d-smd-hot-air-rework-station-solder13:05
whitequarkthat URL... /geek-area/great-tools/ :D13:06
whitequarkhah, Duratool  D01841 has exactly same handpiece as mine13:06
DocScrutinizer05>>Get over the price concern, it is too cheap but it does what it says on the tin and it does it well!<< ;-P13:07
whitequarklol13:07
DocScrutinizer05and of course again the inevitable EEVblog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vva2t21sOAs13:09
DocScrutinizer05>>WARNING: One unit has been found to have been dangerously mis-wired:<< LOL, well that's what you get from incredibly cheap chinese stuff13:14
whitequarkokay... hm, what to do for the rest of today. I think I need to add pcb-gcode generator for silkscreen and try the acrylic paint idea13:17
DocScrutinizer05I think you want to check your CNC controller, no?13:19
whitequarkoooh right, thanks, that's a good idea13:19
whitequarkstill I'm off to get some food and paint. can't buy 'em at 1AM13:19
DocScrutinizer05that's also a good idea, should do similar 13:20
DocScrutinizer05oooh right, no shower until those dudes finished their epoxy mess in our sewage13:22
DocScrutinizer05:-S13:22
wpwraknow that's a convenient excuse ;-)13:23
DocScrutinizer05it actually sucks13:27
whitequarkno shit13:29
DocScrutinizer05I've been told they only have to get 5 leaks done today, so can't take much longer 13:32
DocScrutinizer05Thu and Fr they were busy whole day13:32
DocScrutinizer05GRRRRR13:41
DocScrutinizer05shall I get this one http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF260002  or that one http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF260000 ?13:52
DocScrutinizer05it#s quite strange they don't give any links to true spec sheets of the dang MCU13:53
wpwrakF4 is a lot more powerful than L113:54
wpwrakbtw, i'm not sure how well these boards play with open tools. you have that st-link that may be an obstacle.13:55
DocScrutinizer05I don't care, it's for free13:58
DocScrutinizer05I'll get the F4 then13:58
DocScrutinizer05the "term and conditions" is an empty webpage ;-P13:59
wpwrakthe chips hmm, the F4 should have two USB ports. i don't see them ...13:59
DocScrutinizer05meh13:59
wpwrakthe F4's boot ROM supports DFU. so that's a convenient way for flashing firmware. you also need a reset button and a way to switch the boot mode selection.14:01
DocScrutinizer05FUCKIT! "Max quantity reached. Please contact your distributor"14:04
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't waste my time on such crap14:04
wpwrak;-)14:05
DocScrutinizer05or should've filled the form 5 days ago, when I first opened the page14:05
wpwrakit's some weird design for the arduinobotomized anyway14:06
DocScrutinizer05meh, 10 USD14:06
DocScrutinizer05I probably should feel grateful that this thing doesn't clutter my flat14:07
wpwrakif you want fun and something to relax with from the hard work on neo900, why not play with, say y-box ? also has a nice little arm, and even an rf chip14:07
DocScrutinizer05no time for such stuff14:08
whitequarkwpwrak: I wrote adapter for st-link14:08
wpwrakthey work you too hard in the neo900 mines, do they ? :)14:08
whitequarkhttp://github.com/texane/stlink is its current place14:08
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: &14:08
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ^*14:08
whitequarkL1 has really powerful power saving stuff. you can tweak consumption on an incredibly low level, taking it overall to dozens of nA14:09
DocScrutinizer05:nod: but the thing went off my radar 5 min ago14:09
whitequarkF4 is just a lot of beef and relatively simple interface14:09
whitequarkdo note that ST chips can have nasty silicon bugs14:09
DocScrutinizer05I was just "let's pick it when it's for free"14:09
whitequarkah sure14:09
whitequarkoverall ST is kinda like Atmel but modern14:10
whitequarkI like them, but for most complex and demanding tasks you'd want something else maybe14:10
whitequarkTI?14:10
wpwrak(stlink) okay, that looks reasonable now14:10
whitequarkit has fw upload and incircuit debug btw14:10
DocScrutinizer05ok, now to the ticket14:10
whitequarkso it's really convenient14:10
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's still for free14:11
wpwrakelse talk to your dealer, err, distributor :) they can generally sneak you in14:18
DocScrutinizer05nah, home bonus prolly14:21
DocScrutinizer05Vielen Dank für Ihre Registrierung!14:24
DocScrutinizer05Eine Bestätigungs-E-Mail wurde Ihnen soeben zugesandt.14:24
DocScrutinizer05Ihr(e) E-Ticket(s) befindet/befinden sich im Anhang zu dieser E-Mail.14:24
DocScrutinizer05now when they also had a link back to the embeddedworld website14:26
DocScrutinizer05ffs14:26
DocScrutinizer05needs google to find http://www.embedded-world.de/en/14:27
pcercueiI'll see you there :)14:29
DocScrutinizer05prolly only when we fix a time and location15:02
whitequarkokay, got some paint15:10
whitequarkconsultant woman was probably quite surprised when I told "I want white acrylic paint with hi-temp resistance for PCB silkscreening"15:11
whitequarkstill she pointed me to "regular" TiO2/ZnO based ink -- I took TiO2 'cause ZnO can be quite reactive, e.g. with trace amounts of H2S it becomes black15:12
whitequarkand to some crap for painting on ceramic, labelled stable at 150°C for 15 min15:12
whitequarkhowever that last thing is quite liquid so I may have a hard time getting it through silkscreen15:12
whitequarkalso, expensive: $1 per 15ml15:13
whitequarkside note: I'm really enjoying proper stencils, placing solder paste used to be such a horrible PITA for me, I hated it17:16
whitequarkand now it's done in less than a minute17:16
whitequarknot to mention there's no solder bridges17:16
Action: DocScrutinizer05 hopes for proper howto17:19
DocScrutinizer05even video maybe17:20
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I'm absolutely going to describe the whole process in excruciating detail17:20
DocScrutinizer05:-)17:20
whitequarkall materials, precise instructions, photos of every step and such17:20
whitequarkthat's why I got myself this nice camera and so.17:21
whitequarkbut first I want to a) debug the shit I still have broken (etching mainly)17:21
DocScrutinizer05the camera is really nice17:21
whitequarkb) get to two-side PCBs with throughhole plating17:21
DocScrutinizer05makes good macro shots17:21
whitequarkwell I paid almost $300 for this macro lens17:21
whitequarkno doubt it makes good macro shots!17:21
DocScrutinizer05aaah#17:21
whitequarkand roughly same sum for camera and a tripod17:22
whitequarkgood tripod is absolutely *required* for good macro shots17:22
Action: DocScrutinizer05 wonders how and which lens to attach to his fuji XQ117:22
whitequarkit doesn't have changeable optics17:23
DocScrutinizer05that's why "how"17:23
whitequarkmy one has this: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdK4AvG6az6yZ1L1Fx9kyqD_oBqUye4E0WDuxbfUuc0J5x42NJ17:23
whitequarkI *think* you can't stack optics like that and get good results. but I may well be very wrong.17:24
whitequark(can't) due to stuff like aspherical correction your camera implicitly does (it doesn't give you raw files, rather with a huge amount of postprocessing)17:24
whitequarkchromatic aberration too17:24
DocScrutinizer05I should try scotch tape and some of that http://www.lupengigant.de/Uhrmacherlupen/Uhrmacherlupe-10x-Optoview17:24
whitequarkfor example "raw" shots my one does have a mild sort of "fisheye" effect17:25
whitequarkit then can correct that itself or leave to you17:25
whitequarkthat's for human eyes right?17:26
DocScrutinizer05yep17:26
whitequarkwell... you surely can try. but I bet you won't get good results that way, since see above17:26
DocScrutinizer05"good" is relative17:26
DocScrutinizer05for sure worse than yours17:26
DocScrutinizer05but maybe better than without17:27
whitequarkmhm. worth a try17:27
whitequarkokay, a $1M question: how the fuck am I supposed to debug my CNC stepper board, without even a scope?17:27
whitequarkI have absolutely no clue what may cause that17:28
DocScrutinizer05actually I already did it with N900 cam. but the effect was not really noticeable17:28
whitequarkhm, idea #1: switch X and Y motors, figure out if it's heating up due to motor or driver17:28
DocScrutinizer05first idea, probe voltage on all pins of all motors17:29
whitequark(N900) N900 has entirely different optics altogether... and the smaller sensor you make, the crappier picture you get17:29
whitequarkthat I can do17:29
DocScrutinizer05the fuck with XQ1: when I use optical zoom, I instantly have to move away 50cm from object17:30
DocScrutinizer05in MACRO17:30
DocScrutinizer05so no matter how much I zoom in, it is 100% compensated by focus range going away from cam17:31
whitequark"macro"17:31
whitequarkreal macro needs different optics, all that can do is switch some software mode bullshit17:31
DocScrutinizer05ooh?17:31
DocScrutinizer05you're sure?17:32
whitequarkwell, think about it: two things camera can vary about optics, focus distance and zoom17:32
whitequarkwhat exactly would a "macro" mode achieve, given you control zoom entirely yourself?17:32
whitequarkit just tells autofocus software "focus at shit near you"17:32
DocScrutinizer05possibly17:33
whitequarkand *maybe* adds some digital postprocessing, which is as likely to screw picture up as to make it better17:33
whitequarkbut probably not even that17:33
DocScrutinizer05anyway min focus dist jumping from 3cm to 50cm when I zoom *2 is insane17:34
whitequarkI've considered a camera like yours but was talked about it by knowledgeable people17:34
whitequarkand I guess they were 100% right17:34
whitequark*talked out of it17:34
DocScrutinizer05I haven't picked that one17:35
whitequarkgift?17:39
DocScrutinizer05donation17:40
DocScrutinizer05so, yes17:40
Action: whitequark randomly pokes machine17:48
whitequarkdriver definitely exhibits constant-current behavior. if I lower supply voltage, current rists17:48
whitequark*rises17:48
DocScrutinizer05sorry what?17:52
DocScrutinizer05that's constant-power then17:53
DocScrutinizer05unless you mean current in motor17:53
whitequarkcurrent in motor, ofc17:54
whitequarkthat's what you can set with this IC17:54
DocScrutinizer05when that stays constant on constant voltage, then it is constant power17:54
whitequarkTB6560AHQ17:54
DocScrutinizer05yep, every stepper controller using this17:54
whitequarkcnczone really hates them for some reason17:54
whitequarkare they particularly shitty?17:55
whitequarkseem fine to me17:55
whitequarkokay... interesting observation17:56
whitequarkI was disconnecting motors from the stepper board, one by one, and watching current17:56
whitequarkidle consumption now is 330mA. disconnecting Y or Z lowered it by 40mA17:56
whitequarkhowever disconnecting X lowers it by whole 200mA *and* the board stops that annoying high-pitched squeak17:57
whitequarkyou know what I'm talking about17:57
whitequarkso X has 140mA of idle current more sunk into it. I wonder why.17:57
whitequarkconnecting Y motor in X socket makes it sink 200mA into Y motor, so the motor is fine17:58
DocScrutinizer05sure18:01
DocScrutinizer05the chip is kinda incorrectly set18:01
DocScrutinizer05or defective18:01
whitequarkI wonder wtf emits that annoying noise18:01
whitequarkthere's no inductors on board18:01
whitequarkwell, there's one, but it's not in the path used by motors18:02
DocScrutinizer05err, I can't answer that, I dunno the board. ERR I do, it#s the choke18:02
whitequarkthe choke is in the 5V path providing logic supply18:02
DocScrutinizer05hmmm18:02
whitequarkthe only choke ever present in entire machine18:02
DocScrutinizer05x5r x7r caps?18:02
DocScrutinizer05they are known to act piezo18:03
whitequarkdoesn't look like any are present18:03
whitequarkohhh wait18:03
whitequarkI think it's the motor itself18:03
DocScrutinizer05makes a lot of sense18:03
whitequarkif you listen closely it emits some horrible low-pitched noise too18:03
whitequarkand while it doesn't sound like it emits that ultrasound, high-pitched noise is notoriously hard to locate accurately18:04
DocScrutinizer05use a tube18:04
DocScrutinizer05sometimes helps18:04
DocScrutinizer05one ear and tube18:05
DocScrutinizer05then just go for loudness of noise18:05
whitequarkoh actually, Y motor emits that noise too, only way quieter18:05
DocScrutinizer05mhm18:05
DocScrutinizer05I think it#s normal buck comverter18:06
whitequarkoh?18:06
DocScrutinizer05"step down"18:06
whitequarkhttp://lab.whitequark.org/images/3020t/stepper-board-top.jpeg18:06
whitequarkchoke and thing on right is a buck converter yeah18:06
whitequarkbut it only provides logic supply for discrete stuff on board and stepper drivers18:06
whitequarknot motor supply18:06
DocScrutinizer05the TB6560AHQ is using PWM to adjust the current thru motor18:06
whitequarkoooh18:07
whitequarkgot it18:07
DocScrutinizer05usually the current should ramp up when motor spins, and when it stops the current gets reduced to so called "hold current" that keeps motor on position18:08
whitequarkwtf. look at that board, I just noticed: the traces to three supposedly identical driver circuits are all different width18:08
whitequarkand its basically random18:08
DocScrutinizer05so low noise might mean it isn#t actually stopped but constantly stepping back and forth18:08
whitequark(back and forth) that I could feel as vibration of the plastic handle attached to its axis, no? and axis is completely still18:09
whitequarkI think that's just PWM of hold current making the windings vibrate18:09
DocScrutinizer05if it's one microstep, I doubt you could feel it18:10
whitequarkok. I'm entirely lost. if I unplug either X *or* Y motors, the high-pitched noise stops18:11
whitequarkotoh X motor always emits low-pitched noise regardless of channel it's plugged in18:12
whitequarkactually, all 3 channels make motors emit their own unique kinds of noise18:12
whitequarkrecognizable by ear18:12
whitequarklow-pitched noise that is18:13
DocScrutinizer05you won't get anywhere without a scope, friend ;-)18:13
whitequark:(18:13
whitequarkhm, lemme check if anyone sells worthwile stuff locally18:14
whitequarkoh god it's like 1970s all over again18:14
DocScrutinizer05on the bright side: for your special problem your PC's audiocard makes for a perfect dual chan scope18:14
whitequarktektronix 244518:15
whitequarkalmost new and working, for $42218:15
DocScrutinizer05sounds perfect18:16
whitequarkanalog, 4-chan, 150mhz18:16
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mit.edu/~jhawk/tek2445.pdf18:17
DocScrutinizer05this been a damn good scope back when18:18
whitequarkanalog though18:19
whitequarkso... no memory, no data export18:19
whitequarkmakes me a bit sad18:19
DocScrutinizer05meh, get a good anaol scope, you'll love it18:24
DocScrutinizer05analog*18:24
DocScrutinizer05storage scope is luxury, but usually comes with downsides18:24
whitequarkmaybe I should shell out a bit more for tek tds520c18:24
whitequark500mhz, 1GS/s, 250ks memory18:25
whitequarkfor about $1k18:25
DocScrutinizer05hmmm18:25
whitequarkseems like it'll be sufficient for just about anything for next 20 years18:25
whitequark4 channel18:25
DocScrutinizer05logic analyzer?18:25
DocScrutinizer05you got that c't hacks article about scopes?18:26
whitequarkwow, refurbished sells for $4756 retail18:26
whitequarkhttp://www.testequipmentconnection.com/37404/Tektronix_TDS520C.php18:27
DocScrutinizer05the 2445 is a tank, very convenient to operate18:27
DocScrutinizer05while digital scopes often are extremely clumsy with an abysmal man machine interface18:28
whitequark(c't hacks article) yeah but my german's not quite well enough atm :)18:28
whitequarkit also seems either of my options here is above range of that article18:29
DocScrutinizer05that doesn't matter. What they tell you in that article is basics that always apply18:29
DocScrutinizer05also, really? I can't figure how a 500$ is above the range of that article18:30
whitequarkwell, okay, prolly not18:30
DocScrutinizer05I think their range been 500 to 250018:30
DocScrutinizer05for used ones18:30
DocScrutinizer05so exactly your range18:31
DocScrutinizer05for me the 422$ 2445 was a nobrainer18:31
DocScrutinizer05unless i had a 3k to burn for fun18:32
whitequarkso you much prefer it to digital scope?18:33
rohwe do basically everything with a dso18:35
DocScrutinizer05looking at tds520c I see only 3 dials18:35
rohsmaller, lighter, faster.18:35
rohwe still got an analog one, but never use it18:35
whitequarkI'm just thinking, my typical use case for a scope is capture and then analyze in detail18:35
whitequarkthat can only work with digital. maybe I'm just wrong here18:36
DocScrutinizer05sure, that's why you can get great analog scopes for cheap money18:36
rohwhitequark: get a digital one. analog ones come for free.18:36
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: your typical usecase is to analyze periodic signals. One shot storage is not as useful as it may sound. pretty hard to set up18:37
DocScrutinizer05and actually an analog scpe usually is way faster, so you better see glitches in a periodic signal18:38
DocScrutinizer05s/better/easier/18:38
DocScrutinizer05dso tries to simlate that called "digital phosphor"18:39
whitequarkokay I get your point18:39
DocScrutinizer05a real analog scope beats digital ones hands down on that18:39
DocScrutinizer05sure, when you're used to a dso you probably can use it same way as an analog one and it gives you all a analog one can give you (though with more effort to set up stuff), plus more18:40
whitequarkroh: so if you had tds1002 (60MHz 1GS/s 2ch 2k5 samples, $420) and tds520c (500MHz 1GS/s 4ch 250k, $700), what would you choose?18:41
whitequarkokay, now I typed that, it sounds silly18:41
DocScrutinizer05tds520c for 700$? where?18:42
whitequarkhttp://www.avito.ru/moskva/oborudovanie_dlya_biznesa/ostsillograf_tektronix_tds520c_500_mgts_1_gs_250k_8428700218:42
whitequark25000 RUB ~ $70018:42
DocScrutinizer05dnag, if that things isn't fsckd up fubar, I sell my PC to get it18:42
DocScrutinizer05but that's simply too cheap18:43
whitequarkit's refurbished apparently. vendor says you can check it and have a week to get full refund in case of any problems18:43
whitequarkyou're encouraged to check it, even18:43
DocScrutinizer05duh!18:43
whitequarkthere are no probes though18:43
DocScrutinizer05well18:44
whitequarkthey're listed separately18:44
whitequarkwhatcha think about it? I can prolly afford it now18:44
DocScrutinizer05get it18:45
whitequarka RU friend says, "it's extremely unlikely it is actually calibrated well"18:45
whitequarkstill worth a look18:45
whitequarkok I'll chat with them tomorrow18:46
DocScrutinizer05that's true18:46
DocScrutinizer05I can't think how a scope in good condition goes for 10% of its current worth18:46
DocScrutinizer05HMMMM18:47
whitequarkdo note they can't prolly sell it outside of RU, due to same customs regulations preventing me from buying one18:47
DocScrutinizer05>>Note that it is a 'D' version, which does NOT have the electrolytic capacitor plaque problem at this age, which means this unit is very reliable.<<18:47
DocScrutinizer05http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TDS-520D-Digital-Phosphor-Oscilloscope-DPO-500Mhz-2GS-s-1M-2F-2C-13-1F-/261384121466?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item3cdbb52c7a18:47
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: according to http://www.timmestein.nl/index.php?page=tek-tds520-repair capacitur plague makes it fail POST18:49
whitequarkand vendor from avito says it passes POST fine18:49
whitequarkguess it's refurbished18:49
rohwhitequark: hmm.. hard question. i guess the 1002.. even when i prefer 4 channel ones. simply because its cheaper and more portable18:53
rohfor debugging fast stuff one needs one or 2 devices capable of handling multi-hundred mhz tho.. so.. having some devices around is never bad.18:54
rohwe got i think one 60mhz 4 channel tek, one 500mhz 4 channel heavy tek, one 100mhz 4 channel welec and some other tek which needs fixing. and an old 20mhz ananlog hameg18:55
whitequarkyeah, 520c is quite massive18:55
whitequarkbut I can only get one though18:55
rohthe heavy, long and bulky. if you have the space behind your working desk....18:55
whitequark44 cm long, 14 kg18:57
whitequarkwell... that takes about half of my desk18:57
whitequarkby length that is. so it's kinda ok18:58
whitequarkactually yeah, I have where to place it18:58
DocScrutinizer05oooh 20MHz Hameg! <319:00
DocScrutinizer05:-319:00
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: don't you have shops where you can borrow equipment like that? to get a feeling what you'd like to use?19:02
whitequarkthey usually work with businesses only19:03
whitequarkso not available for me in essence19:03
DocScrutinizer05yeah :-/19:03
DocScrutinizer05honestly, the tek has too few knobs19:04
whitequarkwhich of?19:04
whitequarkwe've only discussed teks :)19:04
DocScrutinizer05the dso19:05
DocScrutinizer05it's a damn difference to just turn a dial to adjust sensitivity, timebase, trigger, brightness19:06
whitequarkmhmm19:06
DocScrutinizer05or to push 3 or four buttons to set one multi purpose dial to the function you want to change19:06
DocScrutinizer05you can live with it, but it's no joy19:07
DocScrutinizer05but maybe i'm simply too old and thus biased19:07
whitequarkI can see what you mean19:08
whitequarkwell... it has separate knobs for H/V scale/position, and trigger level19:10
DocScrutinizer05does it?19:11
DocScrutinizer05I see only 3 dials19:11
whitequarkreading the manual19:11
whitequarkit actually has six, didn't yet read what the biggest one does19:12
whitequarkfrom the photo19:12
DocScrutinizer05wait, isn't that a 4 channel scope?19:13
whitequarkah, it's "general purpose knob"19:13
whitequarkit's "2+2"19:13
whitequarkit has two proper channels and two channels with 10V limit19:13
DocScrutinizer05hm?19:14
DocScrutinizer05you mean no amp?19:14
whitequarkyou can't set more than 10V/div scale19:14
DocScrutinizer05less19:14
whitequarkmore19:14
DocScrutinizer05o.O19:14
whitequarkHFour-channel acquisitionthe TDS 540 offers four full-featured channels;19:15
whitequarkthe TDS 520 offers two full-featured channels and two channels with19:15
whitequarklimited vertical scale selections: 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V.19:15
DocScrutinizer05what do you want? 100V/div?19:15
whitequarkI dunno, I just quote manual19:15
DocScrutinizer05missing 1 and 10 mV/div19:16
whitequarkooh19:16
whitequarkyes you're right :)19:16
DocScrutinizer05so, no proper amp19:17
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless you need a knob for each of the 4 chan, to adjust that19:17
DocScrutinizer05or you mess with multifunction dial19:17
DocScrutinizer05you need 4 dials for position of each "beam" as well19:18
DocScrutinizer05so we are at 819:18
whitequarkyeah, it has one multifunction set of buttons&knobs for all channels19:18
whitequarkI dunno, isn't 16 knobs a bit excessive?19:18
DocScrutinizer05analog scopes have like 3 dials per channel19:19
DocScrutinizer05plus a few switches19:19
DocScrutinizer05and then they have timebase, that also has 2 dials 19:19
DocScrutinizer05and trigger, another dial19:20
DocScrutinizer05plus switches19:20
DocScrutinizer05that's why I say "the dso has too few dials"19:20
DocScrutinizer05counting, that's actually 16. But we also have brightness and such stuff19:37
whitequarkI'm 100% fine with having less redundant elements though19:38
whitequarkit's probably a matter of habit19:38
whitequarkI mean, I already used DSO so I know how that feels19:38
DocScrutinizer05redundant?19:39
DocScrutinizer05it's just "normalized"19:39
DocScrutinizer05one function one dial19:40
DocScrutinizer05of course you can as well design stuff like: 16 pushbuttons to select function of the one multifunction dial19:41
DocScrutinizer05but then you have two actions per adjustment 19:41
whitequarknormalized, yes19:41
whitequarkwell, no. you only have extra actions when switching channels19:41
wpwraki'd look for a rigol. they tend to have a lot more power for the money. tek are more "solid" but you spend a lot of money before you get something that can compare to a entry- to mid-level rigol19:41
wpwrakbtw, the tds520c should be 2 channels, not 4. that would be tds540c19:42
DocScrutinizer05and you can replace the 16 pushbuttons by a few less and have 3 actions for some adjustments19:42
whitequarkit's 2+2 channels19:42
whitequarkwpwrak: and it sells for $700, you think $700 rigol would be that good?19:42
wpwrakaccording to http://www1.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/tds540c/specs.html  it may also not have 250 kSa/chan but 50 kSa (unless extended)19:42
whitequarkit's extended yes19:43
whitequarkspecifically options 1F 1M19:43
wpwrak(4 chan) ah, 2 weird ones. interesting :)19:45
DocScrutinizer05for 700 bucks you can't go wrong, unless the thing is totally fubar19:45
DocScrutinizer05and when you don't hurry, it will be sold (and on its way to Germany ;-P)19:46
wpwrakyah, that sort of critter has a refurbished list price in the USD 1k - 5k region. so 700 is very good.19:46
whitequarkhehe19:47
Action: DocScrutinizer05 wonders what the "hack your tek" scene looks like19:48
wpwraki wouldn't worry about the number of knobs. what's annoying is if you only have one set of vertical control knobs and need to select the channel they control with a button. but besides that, there's little that can go wrong19:48
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: that's exactly what I talk about19:49
whitequarkyea, it works like that19:49
DocScrutinizer05you need sensitivity and pos for each chan19:49
wpwrakone issue is that is has no usable data interface. so you'll be taking screenshots with a camera19:49
DocScrutinizer05and it annoys hell outa me to select chan I want to adjust19:50
DocScrutinizer05by pushbutton19:50
whitequarkwoakas1: floppy?19:50
whitequarkthere's option 13 for about $60, RS232C19:50
wpwrakah yes, indeed. yeah, that's messy. you can live with it, though. my rigol has that too.19:50
wpwrak(13) you'll want that :)19:51
wpwrak(floppy) i wrote "usable" ;-) there's also GPIB, but ...19:51
whitequarkGPIB costs $30019:52
DocScrutinizer05forget GPIB19:52
whitequarkwell, the converter19:52
rohmodern tek have ethernet19:53
whitequarkmodern tek also have pricetag :S19:53
wpwrakthe old-modern conversion is easy: add a zero and you're there ;-)19:53
DocScrutinizer05hehe19:53
whitequarkheh19:54
wpwrakthat's why i like the rigols (for new devices). lots of memory, modern interfaces, overall decent performance (they're basically agilents), and their latest models even have a bunch of options you can enable by hacking a code :)19:55
wpwraki wonder why that tek has a numeric keypad. rather unusual.19:55
whitequarkDS1052E: $56019:56
whitequarkeh, 1102E rather19:56
wpwrakmonochrome screen can be a bit confusing when waveforms overlap. but then the resolution is good.19:57
whitequark1052E is $42019:57
wpwraknaw, 1102E is obsolete. 1xx4Z is the new shooting star19:57
whitequark1074Z: $63919:58
wpwrak24 MSa memory, you can get the 70 MHz and "unlock" 100 MHz19:58
wpwrakethernet and USB, color, ...19:59
wpwrakhttp://www.tequipment.net has the DS1074Z for USD 58519:59
whitequarkcan't import19:59
wpwrakalso has "digital phosphor" :)20:00
whitequarkyeah, I lose on analog bw, but... to be honest I don't have anything above 100MHz anyway20:01
wpwraknot so nice: multiplexed vertical control. but that's understandable given the screen size and the rest of the device size20:01
whitequarktek has multiplexed vertical control too20:01
wpwraknext would be the rigol DS2000 series. alas, only 2 channels. again, you can get the lowest-end model and "unlock" 200 MHz there20:02
whitequarkgrmbl, this shit's too complex and I'm practically dropping sleeping20:02
wpwrakand they go up to 56 MSa (also unlockable)20:03
wpwraktheir nicest is the 4000 series. even more memory, up to 4 channels, more bandwidth, also many things unlockable (memory, bandwidth, serial decode), but a bit on the pricy side20:05
wpwrakthe 4000 are also finally big enough for a full set of controls :)20:05
wpwrakone interesting feature of the rigols, i think already starting at the 1000, is the ability to have multiple captures (sometimes called "segments"). so you set up your memory in, say, 1% segments, and then each time it triggers it fills one such segment, and at the end you'll have collected 100 such waveforms20:07
wpwrakanother nice thing modern scopes have are waveform tests: you capture a waveform, add a certain amount of tolerances, then let it run and compare each waveform it sees with that pattern. when there's an excursion, stop or just count it.20:09
wpwrakalas, i also have the "can't import" problem. not just me but neither the company that sells them ...20:10
whitequarkwell... meaning the only thing tek wins at is raw bandwidth20:14
whitequarkmeaning I should *not* get tek under any circumstances20:14
whitequarklike buying a CPU based just on clock freq :)20:15
whitequarkunrelated: that container with persulfate+peroxide burps every several seconds20:18
wpwrakbandwidth is of course nice to have. also for "slow" signals, having many times that bandwidth can be useful, e.g., to examine edges or hunt for glitches20:19
wpwrak"burping acid" that's a new one :)20:20
whitequarkwell, MSDS for both peroxide and persulfate instruct to not store them in airtight containers20:20
wpwrakjust make sure it doesn't get out of its container at night and strangles you in your sleep ;-)20:20
wpwrakpunch a hole ;)20:20
whitequarktook lid off20:21
wpwraknow you've set if free20:21
whitequarkwell... it's just oxygen20:22
wpwrakhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio20:22
DocScrutinizer05(segments) wow that's nice20:33
wpwrakyeah, there have a bunch of interesting features20:47
whitequarkhm, if my acrylic idea won't work, could try this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-PCB-UV-Curing-Paint-Ink-For-Character-Labels-White-100g-/180917167954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1f80e75220:47
wpwrakif i had to buy a scope today, i'd be torn between the 1000Z series and 2000 (or 2000A, which is an update of the 2000 - not sure what exactly changed)20:47
whitequarkbut it seems very hard to obtain (exactly 1 vendor on ebay for all UV curing inks) and generally obscure20:47
whitequarkhopefully acrylic works, it's easily available20:47
whitequarkooh, found some data indicating acrylic is used in industry20:48
whitequark"direct legend printing" process20:48
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/usb/: change a few more uses of ../board.h to board.h (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8b0859421:06
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: oh, and if you want a lot of knobs, they have the 1000B series. alas, very little memory and generally a weaker device. together with the 1000D/E, the previous generation. (ther's also 1000C/CD, which is even older. i have one of these, a 1102CD)21:17
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix key repeat of analog stick working only on some screens (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/b087e5c21:35
nicksydneywpwrak: you talking about RIGOL scope ?21:42
wpwrakyup21:42
nicksydneywpwrak: are there much difference ?21:45
nicksydneybetween the 2 models ?21:45
wpwrakwhich two ? :)21:48
DocScrutinizer05well, believe it or not, for scopes and synthesizers I can't come up with *any* UI that beats good old turn knob dials (or *maybe* linear pots)21:49
DocScrutinizer05even for mixers I could figure alternatives that might work when well done. Not though for scopes and synthi21:50
DocScrutinizer05(in case you wonder: moog is a synthesizer)21:51
wpwrakhere's an idea: get a MIDI knob box, then run you scope on remote control from the PC and provide inputs from the MIDI box21:51
DocScrutinizer05might work but sounds pretty clumsy21:51
wpwrakand yes, having a lot of knobs is always nice. but if you can't have the full array, then there are better and worse solutions21:52
wpwrakalso, there are other nuisances than having multiplexed channel controls, like cursor A and B on the same knob (very annoying, much more than the channel controls), some operations that require you to spin a wheel a gazillion times to get where you want to go, etc.21:53
wpwrakfor deep memory, you also want somewhat more sophisticated navigation. mark/goto, maybe soft-triggers, etc. not sure how well the rigols are doing in that regard.21:54
wpwrak(navigation) if your scope is really responsive, you can more or less get away with just traditional controls. but then we're talking about agilent 7000 and such.21:55
DocScrutinizer05btw dedicated dials not only serve for proper input, they also give a decent direct output about the particular setting21:57
apeleteDocScrutinizer05 wpwrak: seems like my little soldering experiment turned out well:21:59
apeletehttp://apelete.seketeli.net/content/pictures/screenshot-gcwzero-boot-serial-top.png21:59
wpwrakwhee, congratulations !21:59
DocScrutinizer05the old teks had a magnifier turndial coaxial with the sensitivity selector, that had a range of iirc x1 to x10 contiguous, and they had a bright orange light on each channel showing when magnifier been "uncalibrated" (aka not x1)21:59
apeletethanks ! \o/22:00
DocScrutinizer05:-)22:00
DocScrutinizer05same for "zoom" which been the spreader for time base22:00
DocScrutinizer05I the heck prefer a huge bright red lamp over any silly writing on display as only feedback22:01
apeletenow I just need to glue the wires inside the case, let them get out through the speaker grill hole, close the case and voilà :-)22:01
wpwrakah, so you didn't change the time base but just the zoom ? sounds nice. they could actually combine that for stopped/idle waveforms by just having an indicator when selected time base and last captured time base are the same22:02
DocScrutinizer05OOOOH! you will want to add a set of plugs to separate the wires from the PCB22:02
wpwrakleds are cheap :)22:02
DocScrutinizer05(magnifier) mad useful to compare waveforms on two channels22:05
DocScrutinizer05also the invert for at least one channel22:05
DocScrutinizer05of course you have stuff like "A-B" but that is reducing the information displayed on screen22:06
DocScrutinizer05I don't just want to see the arithmetic difference between two channels, I also want to see the relation between the difference and the common wave 22:08
DocScrutinizer05and even for A-B mode you might want to adjust gain in one channel so it matches amplitude in other channel22:08
wpwrakif it gets really fancy, i just download the waveform to the pc and torture it some more there ;-)22:09
DocScrutinizer05I can't recall if contenporary dso have any such modes and adjusting options22:09
wpwrakthey tend to have more features than people usually can discover in a year or so :)22:10
wpwraki'll let you decide whether it is good or bad ;-)22:10
DocScrutinizer05meh, when I need a PC to work with my scope, I think sth is quite messed up22:10
DocScrutinizer05but that's totally in line with my mantra. You probably can do all the analog tricks on a dso as well, but an analog/multibutton scope is just 5 times as fast to get useful results22:12
wpwrakthere we differ :) i want the pc as the universal fallback. e.g., if i need to decode ARM's SWD protocol, i can either hunt for a $$$$$ (not just $$$) scope with a $$$$ protocol decoder option, or just write a little perl script22:12
DocScrutinizer05no arguments aginst that from my side22:13
nicksydneywpwrak: between 1000Z series and 200022:13
wpwrakand yes, i like responsive scopes. i wish they'd open access to their protocol decoders for triggering, because that's something one can't do from a pc22:14
DocScrutinizer05hehe, right22:14
wpwraknicksydney: ah, i think the bottom like is this: the 2000(A) is a more rounded, higher-class device. BUT it costs more and maxes out at 2 channels. the 1000Z is more basic but gives you up to 4 channels.22:15
DocScrutinizer05analog scopes are slow, they need some 10s to heat up the CRT. But... DSO might take some minutes to boot ;-P22:16
nicksydneyseems like Dave reviewed the 1000Z https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnWSYg1z9A22:17
DocScrutinizer05OOOH, and have you seen that DSO with good X/Y mode?22:17
wpwraknote that, while many scopes reduce the sample rate from X for 1 CH to X/2 for 2 CH (2 CH scopes), and X for one channel from each pair and X/2 for >= 3 channels, the 1000Z actually divides all the way down to X/4 if you use all four channels22:17
DocScrutinizer05prolly not22:17
DocScrutinizer05since that's simply not how DSOs work22:17
wpwrakso you get a fairly slow 250 MSa/s at the end. that's still usable, just rather low22:17
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: never had much use for X/Y ;-)22:18
DocScrutinizer05pathetic ;-P22:18
nicksydneyDS1032Z and DS1062Z22:18
wpwrakthrough it may look cute to plot data against clock ;-)22:18
DocScrutinizer05XY in some cases beats 2chan hands down22:19
wpwrak"1032" wow :)22:19
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: probably not in the digital domain. and that's where i spend most of my time.22:19
DocScrutinizer05well22:20
nicksydneyneed to visit this in september http://www.electronex.com.au/22:20
wpwraknicksydney: if you want a good entry-level scope, i'd recommend the 1074Z. in many cases 2 channels are enough but sometimes you really really want more, and it sucks if you just can't have them. (my scope is an MSO. the digital part sucks very badly (broken by design, with all sorts of glitches), but sometimes i'm happy to have even that, because i couldn't see things otherwise)22:22
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: for your RF stuff you could use XY, but then your bandwidth most definitely will defeat that usecase22:23
wpwraknicksydney: if you want a more advanced device, it's a tie between 1074Z and the 2000 series. 2000 gives you more bandwidth, which is great. and they have also all the features fully developed (in the 1000Z, some are apparently not as smoothly done as in the 2000). the big drawback of the 2000 is that you can only get it with 2 channels.22:24
wpwrakyeah. where's a good 3 GHz scope when you need one ? ;-)22:24
nicksydneywpwrak: the 1074Z is this one http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-S.html ?22:25
wpwrak-S adds a signal generator. that's probably useless except maybe in a classroom.22:25
nicksydneywpwrak: or this one http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1074z/22:25
wpwrakthe latter22:26
wpwraknote that you can "upgrade" it to 100 MHz, 24 MSa, and some more goodies by entering a code22:26
wpwrak(or you can spend about USD 1000 to by the options individually, see "accessories")22:27
wpwraki think "waveform record and display" is the segmented recording i mentioned earlier22:27
DocScrutinizer05I read "waveform record and playback" and thought WOW22:28
nicksydneywpwrak: this is the cheapest online can find in oz http://www.emona.com.au/rigol.asp22:28
nicksydneywpwrak: budget can fit this one https://secure1.bluecentral.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=85 :)22:28
DocScrutinizer05do i hear you pondering? ;-D22:30
wpwrakthe 1102E is not a bad scope. but the 1074Z is definitely worth the difference. i'd stay away from the 1052E. 50 MHz is too low, and "upgrading" it to 100 MHz, while possible, is messy.22:31
DocScrutinizer05"waveform record and playback" is prolly a whole new class of tool, with the opportunities to use this feature yet to get investigated22:31
DocScrutinizer05DSO made it feasible22:31
wpwraki think they explain in in eevblog, at least for the 200022:31
wpwrakyeah, lots of fun stuff in these22:32
nicksydneyyikes....the 1074Z is *DOUBLE* the price https://secure1.bluecentral.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=2866 :(((((22:32
DocScrutinizer05I think I lost you22:32
DocScrutinizer05I meant playback literally, via two wires22:32
wpwrakah ;-))22:32
wpwrakwell, there are such setups. some of the rigols can work directly with a signal generator ...22:33
DocScrutinizer05:-o22:33
wpwraknicksydney: is also has twice or more of everything :-)22:33
DocScrutinizer05dang, again an idea I had - too late22:34
wpwraknicksydney: tell your wife her old shoes look great, much better than any of the new stuff. then you should be able to stretch the budget a little ;)22:34
DocScrutinizer05hardly ;-P22:35
DocScrutinizer05the opposite strategy might work though22:35
DocScrutinizer05new shoes for her only when new scope for him22:35
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: i think that's a good strategy :)22:36
wpwrakhmm, i think you'll get him divorced. then he'll be completely broke22:36
DocScrutinizer05the trick is finding a good rationale for that22:36
nicksydneywhy can't scope be like DVD player where it drops in price as time passes :)22:36
DocScrutinizer05ooh it does22:37
DocScrutinizer05in 1975 DSOs were ... err... $$$$$$$ ?22:37
DocScrutinizer05;-P22:37
wpwrakbefore mail order, you could have said "let go to far-away place X to pick up that scope. oh, by the way, i've heard there's also a whole mall dedicated to shoes there"22:37
DocScrutinizer05I think in 1975 you had analog storage scopes22:38
DocScrutinizer05which been real crap22:38
wpwrakyes, indeed. something like the 1000Z didn't even exist just a few years ago. and those that came close were more in the ferrari price class ...22:38
DocScrutinizer05compared to what you would've needed and what you would've been able to pay for22:38
wpwrakanalog storage sounds a bit like storing people in the transporter coils in star trek ....22:39
nicksydneyso in another 2-3 years we will see scope like Rigol in the vicinity of the price of beaglebone black :)22:39
wpwrakusually doens't go well for the red shirts22:39
wpwrakwell, you'll see some junk brand sell scopes with similar specifications but lousy build quality22:40
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: worse, in electron tubes22:40
DocScrutinizer05storage CRT22:41
wpwrakif you look around, you find a bunch of evil critters priced below rigol. they tend to make your life a lot more interesting ...22:41
wpwrakhah :)22:41
wpwraki think at some point in time they also had some sort of ADC+DAC combos, but still CRT output22:41
DocScrutinizer05yeah, a 6 months or so22:42
DocScrutinizer05http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-View_Storage_Tube22:43
DocScrutinizer05>>Sie nutzten die 6×8 Zoll große **Tektronix**-611-Speicherröhre<<22:45
DocScrutinizer05http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speicheroszilloskop22:48
DocScrutinizer05http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tektronix_465_Oscilloscope.jpg22:48
DocScrutinizer05you see the red magnifier knobs ;-)22:49
DocScrutinizer05and the lamps nearby22:49
DocScrutinizer05"UNCAL"22:50
wpwrak"INTERCAL" ;-)22:50
DocScrutinizer05no kidding?22:54
DocScrutinizer05I can hardly read any writing on that photo22:54
DocScrutinizer05the red UNCAL is only barely readable in `highres´ photo22:55
DocScrutinizer05(what a shitty snapshot, really)22:55
wpwrak(INTERCAL) now, just joking22:55
DocScrutinizer05missed that one22:57
DocScrutinizer05anyway, I wonder what that tek465 critter been called up for. probably some dozen DM22:59
DocScrutinizer05dozen kDM22:59
DocScrutinizer05sth in the range of a 2GHz scope nowadays22:59
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: XY mode http://www.knutsel.org/tag/tektronix-460-monitor/ LOL23:01
wpwrak;-)23:03
DocScrutinizer05LOL >> It has the disadvantages of an analog scope combined with the confusing controls of a modern scope.<<23:05
wpwrakyou're not alone :)23:06
DocScrutinizer05hmm nowadays it's not that unaffordable anymore: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/usedequipment/tektronix/oscilloscopes/465.htm23:09
DocScrutinizer05of couuuuuuurse! eevblog *again*: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tektronix-465-repair-and-restoration/23:11
wpwrakah no, the 2000 also has one set of control per channel. so only the 1000Z multiplexes23:46
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