#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-02-19

wpwrakyes ! found the problem :) the poor little cc2543 had no digital VDD. no surprise it acted up.00:38
whitequarkpowered through clamp diodes?00:39
wpwrakit could be that it lost the VDD connection during the testing. it was one of the more marginal "vias"00:39
wpwraki guess i have been a bit too sloppy with that board. fixed a bunch more of these but hadn't noticed this one.00:40
whitequarkshould've electroplated them :p00:41
whitequarkoh that reminds me; the reactives are shipping today from SPb...00:41
whitequarkwonder when they'll arrive00:42
wpwrakthat's the sort of process that may be beyond my reach00:42
whitequarkoh? why?00:42
wpwrakisn't it pretty hefty chemistry ? also, how do you tell the copper to go into the holes ?00:43
whitequarkthe process I'll be using relies on thermal decomposition to deposit a layer of copper nanoparticles00:43
whitequarkand the thing that decomposes is initially a liquid, kept inside holes by surface tension and van der waals forces00:44
wpwrakhmm. sounds like special chemicals. no the sort of stuff you find in town ?00:44
whitequarkthe only hard part is a (any) hypophosphite salt00:45
whitequarkcopper sulphate and ammonia in water are both trivial to obtain00:45
whitequarkwpwrak: I can send you a kg of Ca(H2PO2)2 if you want. it's stable and safe to ship in airmail00:47
wpwrakand it probably wouldn't pass customs :)00:47
whitequarktable salt -- 1kg00:47
wpwraknaw, "imported"00:47
whitequarkyeah you have it even worse00:48
wpwrakthey recently put a two shipments per year limit. depending on how they calculate it, i may already have reached that.00:48
whitequarkdo you have chemical reagent suppliers in .ar ?00:49
wpwraksure. some things are difficult, but most of the basic stuff is obtainable00:50
whitequarkcalcium hypophosphite is not exactly exotic00:50
whitequarktry searching for CAS# 7789-79-900:50
wpwraknot used in argentina, it seems00:51
whitequarkI see...00:52
wpwraklet's translate this into spanish ...00:52
whitequarkhence I provided the CAS# :)00:52
whitequarkwpwrak: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?interface=CAS%20No.&term=7789-79-9&lang=es&region=AR&focus=product&N=220003048+219853057+219853286&mode=partialmax00:52
whitequarkseems sigmaaldrich has it00:52
wpwrakhttp://simple.wikipedia.org has it ! ;-))00:53
wpwrakACIDO TARTARICO sounds like fun00:53
whitequarkpoultry, right. and .ar has a lot of that, doesnt it?00:53
whitequarkby the way, this is awesome: http://www.turismo.gov.ar/robots.txt00:55
wpwrakno hypophosphites :-(01:01
wpwrakhm, but maybe i could use this as substitute ? ACIDO FOSFORICO 85% FG01:01
whitequarkI always wanted to do this, so, let's develop a new process with more commonly occuring reagents01:02
wpwrakand they also have HF. let's have a party ;-)01:02
whitequarkI'll poke my friends who know chemistry01:02
whitequarkshouldn't be too hard; you just need a copper salt and a reducing agent01:03
whitequarkI bet there are hundreds of combinations which would work.01:03
whitequarkI don't want to have my analytical chemistry course go to waste :p01:05
whitequarkit was awesome and I got straight A... though I since forgot it almost entirely01:05
wpwrakyeah, i was doing well in chemistry, too, even though i didn't really "grok" some parts of it. but that wasn't needed to solve the exams :) alas, too many years of not using any of it ...01:07
whitequarkit'll also probably give me some cred in US, because hypophosphite is in DEA Schedule I there01:08
whitequarkfor some absurd reason, likely just bureaucracy failure01:08
wpwrakah, they would explain why i didn't find it01:08
whitequarkdoes US influence AR that much?01:09
whitequarkI thought they were a bit at odds01:09
wpwrakwell, if one day run out of stupid ideas of their own, why not copy from someone else 01:09
wpwrakthere's a bit of a love-hate relationship01:10
whitequarkapparently, you can make meth with it01:14
wpwrakbah, sell the kids paint thinner to sniff ...01:16
wpwrakcopper salt .. seems that Copper(II) sulfate is the only one i can easily find01:19
wpwrakthey list it under "ALIMENTACION ANIMAL"01:19
wpwrakwell, considering that it's used as a whatever-cide, perhaps there some sort of truth in this ..01:19
whitequarkwpwrak: that's what you need, yes01:20
whitequarkpretty standard thing01:20
whitequarkcould also get battery acid and dissolve copper in it.01:20
wpwrakreacts with iron01:20
whitequarkin fact, that's likely to lead to better quality reagent, since that whatever-cide may well be dirty01:21
whitequark(reacts with iron) mmm yes, a redox reaction. fe displaces cu from solution01:21
wpwraknaw, that's a chemicals shop. i think they sell clean stuff01:21
whitequarkah, excellent.01:21
whitequarkyou don't need very high grade stuff, just reasonably pure.01:22
whitequarkBecause hypophosphorous acid can reduce elemental iodine to form hydroiodic acid, which is a reagent effective for reducing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine to methamphetamine,[5] the United States Drug Enforcement Administration designated hypophosphorous acid (and its salts) as a List I precursor chemical effective November 16, 2001.01:22
whitequarkargh, what an idiotic regulation01:22
whitequarkyou can't easily synthesize it either, because P4 (white/red phosphor; precursor) is also Schedule I substance01:23
whitequarkwhat are other methods to make it... hm01:23
whitequarkoxidation of phosphine. thank you but no01:23
wpwrakphosgene ? :)01:25
whitequarkphosphine. it's slightly less toxic.01:25
whitequarkspontaneously flammable in air01:25
wpwraksounds useful for the party01:26
whitequarklet's search JACS01:26
wpwraksome fireworks before the cups of FOOF go around01:26
whitequarkhm. no relevant hits. wonder if they filter papers on synthesizing DEA-listed substances01:28
wpwrakCopper sulfate can cause conjunctivitis. oh joy. it's been almost a year since my last one (which was the first ever and something i'm in no hurry of repeating)01:28
whitequarkwpwrak: presumably if you are using it as an aerosol insecticide01:30
whitequarkjust wear eye protection, as you should, and you'll be fine -- you shouldn't normally even touch the bath01:30
whitequarkmuch less get it in your eyes01:30
wpwrakyou should make friends in your local underground techno scene. let the dealers that usually hang around at such places know you know some things about chemistry. work your way up in the organization until you get at the formulas ;-)01:31
whitequarkwpwrak: lol, HPA is legal in RU. I just ordered 0.4kg of it01:31
whitequarkwhy would anyone synthesize stuff they can buy for $10/kg?01:32
wpwrakHPA ? Harry Potter Alliance ?01:32
whitequarkhypophosporous acid01:32
wpwrakah :)01:32
whitequarkalso, neither I2 or HI is controlled substance here as well01:33
whitequarkhm... so HPA is a really powerful reducing agent. meaning to synthesize it out of H3PO4 say you'd need an even more powerful one01:35
whitequarkwhich are not easy to come by :/01:35
whitequarkalso means HPA is not easily replaced in this electroplating process01:36
whitequarkaha, found someone's thesis on synthesizing it in a lab01:37
whitequarkokay, no, it's the same phosphine thing. :(01:42
wpwraki guess i'll stick with my wires for a while longer ...01:43
whitequarkwpwrak: there's US545493001:43
whitequarkokay, it suggests dimethylamineborane and hydrazines01:45
whitequarkhyrazine hydrate:01:46
whitequarkPotential Acute Health Effects:01:46
whitequarkExtremely hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Very01:46
whitequarkhazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer, permeator). Liquid or spray mist may produce tissue damage particularly on01:46
whitequarkmucous membranes of eyes, mouth and respiratory tract. Skin contact may produce burns. Inhalation of the spray mist01:46
whitequarkmay produce severe irritation of respiratory tract, characterized by coughing, choking, or shortness of breath. Severe over-01:46
whitequarkexposure can result in death. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is01:46
whitequarkcharacterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.01:46
whitequarkPotential Chronic Health Effects:01:47
whitequarkExtremely hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Very01:47
whitequarkhazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer, permeator). CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC01:47
whitequarkEFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The01:47
whitequarksubstance is toxic to lungs, liver, mucous membranes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target01:47
whitequarkorgans damage. Repeated or prolonged contact with spray mist may produce chronic eye irritation and severe skin irritation.01:47
whitequarkI guess I won't use it01:47
wpwrak"it won't kill you but you'll wish it did" :)01:47
whitequarkdimethylamineborane is long-term toxic to CNS... damn01:48
wpwrakthere seems to be a factory that makes H3O2P01:48
whitequarkwpwrak: that would suit you perfectly01:48
wpwrakone of the google hits: "Reduction of Ephedrine to Methamphetamine Using [...]" ;-)01:51
wpwrak(for "Hypophosphorous acid")01:51
whitequarkdamn junkies, creating troubles for legitimate users of HPA01:52
whitequarkor should I say damn DEA01:52
wpwraki'd side with the junkies here. let the chemicals float freely !01:52
whitequarkit's not even working anyway01:53
wpwrakthis seems to be the place to go if you believe in the resurrection of Walter White: https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/hypophosphorus.html01:53
whitequarknow #qi-hw is on some list :)01:54
whitequarkthough it probably was years ago01:54
wpwrakgot about time :)01:54
whitequarkokay. seems like polymethylhydrosilane can be used as a reducing agent here as well01:55
whitequarkand it's nontoxic01:55
wpwrakcan't it be something simple ? table salt ? caustic soda ? muriatic acid ?01:55
whitequarkthere were some hits mentioning "plant extracts"01:56
whitequarkgallic acid01:56
whitequarkokay, PMHS is safe but impossible to obtain01:57
whitequarkaha, ascorbic acid. now we're getting somewhere01:58
whitequarkI think this can work01:58
whitequarkDuring these years, many methods have been re-01:59
whitequarkported to synthesize copper nanoparticles, including01:59
whitequarkmetal vapor synthesis,[22] vacuum vapor deposition,[23]01:59
whitequarkexploding wire method,[24,25] sonochemical reduction,[26] [27]  [28-32] 01:59
whitequark>exploding wire method01:59
whitequarkout of fancy names eh?02:00
wpwrak... spontaneous neutralino condensation ...02:02
wpwrakinteresting. xchat's spell checker doesn't even know that "neutralino" exists :)02:03
whitequarknice, apparently L-ascorbic acid can do this perfectly02:04
wpwraki'm looking forward to hear about your results ;-)02:05
wpwrakor read about them, depends on which way the reactions go :)02:05
whitequarkokay, "the temperature of the mixture was kept at 100°C for several hours"02:07
whitequarkthat's a bit disconcerting02:07
wpwrakunder how many GPa ?02:07
whitequark1 atm02:09
whitequarkhm, glyoxylic acid...02:09
whitequarkoooh, you can do it with just formaldehyde apparently02:10
whitequarkcool. room temp and pressure. this may be the best reaction so far02:12
wpwrakoh, excellent. kl26 has massively improved gpios compared to kl2502:13
wpwrakcan switch pull-up or -down, and has 8 more interrupt-capable gpios (3/5 banks vs. 2/5 in the kl25)02:14
whitequarkI know, screw all that. I'll write my analytical chemistry professor02:16
wpwrakyeah, i think that's better :)02:16
whitequarkhe's a pretty cool guy. still waters run deep, so to say02:17
whitequarkhe enjoyed mentioning various illegal things on lectures and exploding stuff in demonstrations02:17
wpwrakmy hopes for getting a reproducible process are sinking again ...02:20
whitequarkoh btw, I found a reference to a working process using formaldehyde02:29
whitequarkbut it's a bit evil so02:29
wpwrakhow many goats ?02:29
wpwrakevil processed usually require some goats to be sacrificed02:30
whitequarkit came to my attention that the relevant part is not that HPA is a good reducing agent02:48
whitequarkbut that copper hypophosphite is thermally unstable02:48
whitequarki.e. any thermally unstable copper salt would fit02:49
wpwraki don't quite like the ring of "unstable" ...02:53
wpwraki see nitrogen atoms reach escape velocity ...02:54
whitequarknah, here it means "will decompose at above ~150 degrees celsius"02:56
wpwrakis that because the reaction happens at that temperature or is it a protection against thermal runaway ?02:57
whitequarkthe reaction is endotermic here02:59
whitequarkso, it doesn't self-sustain02:59
whitequarkokay, wrote him a letter03:12
whitequarkthe formaldehyde process apparently requires you to activate surface with palladium03:13
whitequarkreally, there is not very much options for activation...03:15
DocScrutinizer05copperacid! ;-P03:19
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: hmmm?03:19
DocScrutinizer05or was it acetylite03:20
DocScrutinizer05COPPER ACETYLIDE03:21
DocScrutinizer05you can blast the holes and plate them with nanocopper in one step ;-P03:22
whitequarkfulminate sounds explosive indeed03:23
whitequark>Copper acetylide can form inside pipes made of copper or an alloy with high copper content, which may result in violent explosion.03:24
whitequarkooo I've read that in an encyclopedia a few years ago03:24
whitequarkI recall being really impressed by that article; it said at some point officials gathered about 1.5t of various pipes and primed them. the resulting explosive moved the whole container 6cm or so03:25
wpwrakgigacraters plated with nanocopper ...03:26
DocScrutinizer05the problem is you'll need to find something that is a) somehow soluble in a liquid  b) somehow you can make it come out of that liquid (prolly easy)  c) the remaining copper salt needs to decomposite leaving elementary coppy, at temperatures well below PCB decomposition03:30
wpwrak... and a fine mist of charred organic residue, origin unknown. btw, has anyone seen DocScrutinizer ?03:30
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: exactly03:30
whitequarkit appears that hypophosphate hits a sweet spot in all three03:30
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: ideal suicide method03:31
wpwrakmaybe one should just forget about copper and use mercury instead. low melting point, just dunk the pcb in it and keep it refrigerated. done.03:31
DocScrutinizer05if it wasn't for the holes, I'd consider the "exploding wire method" quite suitable03:32
whitequarkI had absolutely no doubts "exploding wire method" would catch your attention03:32
DocScrutinizer05vacuum isn't that hard to create03:32
whitequarkin fact it's the whole reason I posted that excerpt here :p03:33
DocScrutinizer05and for short distances it might even work in inert gas03:33
DocScrutinizer05well, I have some experience with that method ;-P03:33
DocScrutinizer05there's a funny efect keeping even molten and even boiling copper wires in shape when the magnetic forces from the several 100s of kA kick in03:35
DocScrutinizer05they try to trigger fusion this way03:35
DocScrutinizer05Mega Ampere though, in that case03:35
DocScrutinizer05anyway exploding copper wire works, I witnessed it03:36
DocScrutinizer05seen the copper plating on my pliers03:37
DocScrutinizer05but it probably has a hard time to go inside holes03:37
whitequarkput the wire through hole?03:38
DocScrutinizer05for exposed surface it's a pretty easy and convenient way to get a nano copper cover03:38
DocScrutinizer05might work :-)03:38
DocScrutinizer05but pretty clumsy03:38
whitequarkI'm almost inclined to test that just because of how insane it is03:38
DocScrutinizer050.1mm copper wire + 500uF 400V03:39
DocScrutinizer05+ really heavy duty switch and wires03:40
whitequarkrelays with Ag coating work really well for this task03:40
DocScrutinizer05sounds awesome russian way03:40
whitequarkpractically no welding even after 100s of discharges03:40
whitequarkdon't ask how I know03:40
whitequarkoh and disposable photocameras make for an excellent source of high-voltage converters03:41
whitequarkand caps, too03:41
DocScrutinizer05I created a special spam filter for subj:"Community & educational development" + body:"PRESS RELEASE"03:42
DocScrutinizer05now the give me "Cummunity & educational development"03:42
Action: whitequark . o O ( http://i.imgur.com/Ly2hZQb.jpg )03:43
whitequark(it's called "insanity wolf".)03:44
DocScrutinizer05hmm, like "rabid"?03:51
wpwrakheh, found this one: http://www.kulfoto.com/cat-pictures/17411/good-and-bad-advice03:52
DocScrutinizer05dafaq, audio. had to close that shite immediately03:52
wpwrakaudio ? not here03:53
DocScrutinizer05prolly ad03:53
DocScrutinizer05german too03:53
DocScrutinizer05and about XMAS!03:53
DocScrutinizer05"Fuer viele is Weihnachten eine Zeit, " F403:54
wpwrakwell, here's the raw material: http://f.kulfoto.com/pic/0001/0018/j88dI17411.jpg03:54
DocScrutinizer05did I mention the elevator muzak?03:54
DocScrutinizer05nice picture nevertheless, despite cat picture03:55
whitequarkyou don't like cats?!03:57
DocScrutinizer05I *adore* cates (even though I developed an allergy while living together with one of them in one flat)03:59
whitequarkallergy sucks :(03:59
DocScrutinizer05I *adore* cats (even though I developed an allergy while living together with one of them in one flat) - but I hate pet pictures03:59
whitequarkI think it's possible to get 'desensitized' to allergens03:59
Action: DocScrutinizer05 wonders which idiot placed backspace next to CR03:59
whitequarklike, there's a process that reliably works04:00
DocScrutinizer05quite amazing there seems to exist an archetype of cat fur color that's all black with a white medal on throat04:02
DocScrutinizer05mine been of that color04:03
DocScrutinizer05and I had quite a number of deja-vu err ghost sighting during last 30 years04:04
DocScrutinizer05often tiny white spots on toes of one foot too04:05
DocScrutinizer05well, actually fingertips04:05
DocScrutinizer05since cats walk on toes only, so what you'd call foot are only the toes in fact04:06
DocScrutinizer05digitigrade 04:07
DocScrutinizer05desensitizing usually only works while you're not exposed to any (other) allergenes04:12
DocScrutinizer05and it can take years04:13
wpwrakso we need to get DocScrutinizer05 a hypoallergenic cat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoallergenic#Hypoallergenic_pets04:13
DocScrutinizer05fun part, many cats in fact are, at least for me04:14
wpwrakyou mean, humans trigger a stronger response ? :)04:14
DocScrutinizer05research regarding which cats are allergene donors and which are not is ongoing04:15
DocScrutinizer05so far the only result seems to be: the allergene is NOT the hair (usual misconception), rather the proteines from either the saliva (fur cleaning) or the skin flakes04:18
DocScrutinizer05but maybe neither, but rather some secondary effect, like with "hausstaub milbe" (sorry dig fails on that)04:19
wpwrakHouse dust mite. google shows a nice picture.04:21
wpwrakwell, so does wikipedia04:21
DocScrutinizer05the allergenes from that are the proteines in their shit04:21
wpwrakthe wikipedia article sounds rather enthusiastic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_dust_mite04:22
wpwrak"cosmopolitan guest", "flourish", "potent"04:22
DocScrutinizer05biologists are kinda mad like this04:38
DocScrutinizer05btw maidan square battles04:40
DocScrutinizer05for the german speakers: TV invented a new word "Litionenbatterie". Google gave me ~5000 hits, 8th one: http://kamelopedia.net/wiki/Lition07:17
DocScrutinizer05LOL http://kamelopedia.net/wiki/Kernölig07:31
wpwrak"Litionenbatterie" sounds like a useful technical temr :)11:35
wpwrakat least they didn't make it "Loewenbatterie" :)12:25
whitequarkwpwrak: ooo, the teacher I wrote to has responded12:46
whitequark"try copper formate or oxalate. also, acetyloacetate may work."12:49
whitequarkhm. googled his suggestion. there's a russian forum with a topic where a single person talks with themselves specifically about thermolysis of various copper salts12:53
whitequarkcopper acetate (sic) appears unsuitable. decomposes at 250-300°C, if you take monohydrate, it also tends to bounce crystals around if heated. also, crystals are really big.12:54
whitequarknot this big: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper(II)acetate_crystal_01.jpg but more than you need12:54
whitequarkplus it oxidizes immediately after.12:56
whitequarkcopper oxalate is insoluble in water, so also seems to not work12:56
whitequarkwell, perhaps you'd manage to get a suspension into the holes. but it doesn't sound very reliable.12:57
whitequarkaha, copper formate seems to be another industry-standard method of producing metal films12:58
whitequark... however it happens at 350-450°C. another strike.12:59
whitequarkthough, let me recheck via other sources...13:00
wpwrakseems that he wasn't sufficiently aware of the various constraints :)13:05
whitequarkwell, he did give me a lot of pointers. it's now up to me to test them ;)13:06
whitequarkwould be strange to expect him to solve this completely13:07
wpwrakthinking of it, sodium melts at a convenient 97 C. ideal for dunking :)13:07
wpwrakwell, almost 98 C13:07
whitequarkand what are you going to do next?13:08
wpwrakdunk the pcb in it, let the Na metal fill the holes, let it cool down, then wash off the excess Na :)13:10
whitequarkhow do you wash off excess Na ?13:10
wpwrakkitchen sink of course13:10
whitequarkwell, that'll 'wash off' all of it13:11
whitequarknot excess13:11
wpwraknitpicking :)13:11
whitequarkgrmbl. damn publishers.13:26
wpwrakpaywall ?13:28
whitequarkyeah. for once, their paywall actually worked on me.13:28
whitequarkthis is annoying.13:28
whitequarkgrmbl. seems like all the organic salts of copper have decomposition temperatures too high13:39
whitequarkbut I'd probably just order them all and verify13:40
whitequarkneed a temperature-controlled oven for that, hmm...13:40
wpwraki'm beginning to wonder why the wire in the exploding wire method exploded ... could it have been out of frustration with all the other methods ?13:44
whitequarkthis is pretty much normal if you don't follow a well-known solution13:44
whitequarkthink I could 'repurpose' this one: http://www.avito.ru/moskva/bytovaya_tehnika/roster_delonghi_1400w_27871223914:03
DocScrutinizer05aah, the URL gives it away already15:19
DocScrutinizer05and I was so happy to read that  >AB5@15:19
DocScrutinizer05anyway I wonder why the HELL I got two german ads on that page15:21
DocScrutinizer05no cookies15:22
kyakbecause your browser says you are german? or your ip address?15:24
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yeah. it has too much t° variability to be suitable for reflow, but for thermolysis of salts it's ok15:32
nicksydney_wpwrak: wohoo!! completed my first ever component ATMEGA256RFR2 in Kicad22:01
wpwrak*clap, clap* :)22:01
nicksydney_once complete shall I send a pull request to be included in qi-hardware ?22:04
wpwrakin kicad-libs, yes22:07
nicksydney_oh this is not good 142 Cities In Brazil Are Now Rationing Water As Drought Goes Critical  - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-19/142-cities-brazil-are-now-rationing-water-drought-goes-critical22:39
nicksydney_didn't realise that what's happening in Ukraine is bad http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-19/postcards-ukraine-and-after22:42
wpwraksaving for the mundial :)22:42
nicksydney_shit just hit the fan It Begins: Ukraine Army Given Power To Use Weapons On Civilians - Live Feed http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-19/it-begins-ukraine-army-given-power-use-weapons-civilians-live-feed22:44
larscand you can watch it on live tv!!!23:02
nicksydney_Kiev womans powerful I Am A Ukranian YouTube video goes viral  http://www.news.com.au/national/kiev-womans-powerful-i-am-a-ukranian-youtube-video-goes-viral/story-e6frfkp9-122683248302123:56
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