#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-02-17

DocScrutinizer05anybody ever heard of tandemlaunch(.com)?10:44
DocScrutinizer05when they approach you and ask you for an interview, I wonder if that's a good sign10:46
DocScrutinizer05I don't see what exactly they would do for me, so I would want to 2waste time" for such interview10:46
larsca job interview?11:21
larscor about neo900?11:22
DocScrutinizer05no info11:26
DocScrutinizer05well, something like "I'm very interested in your project"11:26
DocScrutinizer05to neo900 contact mail addr11:28
DocScrutinizer05so she even could act as a customer who thinks it's a nice idea to talk to the manufacturers of her next phone11:29
larscso it's about neo90011:29
DocScrutinizer05:nod:11:30
DocScrutinizer05basically yes11:30
DocScrutinizer05I however wonder if that's a game I want to play11:31
DocScrutinizer05our "project" isn't exactly about investors and university research11:32
DocScrutinizer05nor are we investors ourselves11:32
DocScrutinizer05that's basically the whole mail: >>I am very interested in this project, and wondered if you would have some time for a call to chat a bit.  I'm interested to know how you got started with this project and some of the key challenges so far. I will also be travelling to Germany later in the year and would be interested in connecting.<<11:33
DocScrutinizer05I'm temped to answer "well, fine! thanks for your interest, but what is this chat all about? I'm pretty busy"11:34
DocScrutinizer05"or are you asking for a date? Yes, I'm single" ;-)11:35
larscthey are probably interested in crowed funded projects in general11:38
DocScrutinizer05she either is really personally interested in Neo900 and tries to help with whatever problems we might face. Or she's just doing her usual acquisition job and I doubt Neo900 is the right target for tandemlaunch11:39
larscthey are probably not so much interested in the product itself, but rather in your methods11:39
DocScrutinizer05why would I want to share my "business secrets" with them?11:40
lekernelthey seem to be the networking-crazy types11:41
larscDocScrutinizer05: because people like to talk11:41
DocScrutinizer05well, networking can easily become a time sink that's turning into a vamp for you personally11:42
lekerneltell them to sponsor EHSM ;)11:42
DocScrutinizer05who's EHSM?11:42
lekernelhttp://ehsm.eu11:42
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: she's probably just curious. after all, your project is rather ambitious.11:42
DocScrutinizer05well, maybe I could invite her to a irc chat11:43
DocScrutinizer05I hate phone calls11:43
DocScrutinizer05;-)11:43
wpwraklekernel: that's the spirit ! there you find plenty of crazy minds that could hatch The Next Big Thing (or bring the world to a rapid but messy end :)11:43
DocScrutinizer05hehehe11:43
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, the phone call and even personal meeting suggest that she doesn't deal much with this type of curmudgeon :)11:44
DocScrutinizer05like bio hacking? (topic in recent c't hardware hacks issue)11:44
wpwrakprobably lacks job experience :)11:44
wpwrakbio hacking sounds great. "make your own flu strain, with a touch of marburg. all you need is on github. p.s. be careful !"11:45
DocScrutinizer05apart from the fact I had to pester dig about that term, I doubt I really read you11:45
larscwpwrak: airborne aids11:46
DocScrutinizer05dig translates to "Griesgram, Geizhals"11:46
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: well, generally the sort of people who don't like contact with other people too much11:47
DocScrutinizer05(ambitious) yeah probably too much11:47
wpwrak(ambitious) running into new problems ?11:49
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty lost with internal organizational problems atm11:49
wpwrakpeople or parts management ?11:49
DocScrutinizer05it not fires back that we didn't plan all details from beginning11:49
DocScrutinizer05people11:49
DocScrutinizer05. s/not/now/11:50
wpwrakah, any details ?11:50
DocScrutinizer05it seems like even the shipping of complete devices with case is not really consens11:50
wpwrakpeople problems are always interestiong :)11:50
wpwrakah, custome issues. even better.11:51
wpwrakcustomeR11:51
DocScrutinizer05no11:51
DocScrutinizer05.s/shipping/building/11:51
DocScrutinizer05I'm wondering if I still can represent the project to our customers. Seems I'm not competent to communicate what the product will look like11:53
wpwrakis nikolaus involved in PR ?11:53
wpwrakelse, do you have any people who are close enough in the loop that they could explain it ? dos1 ?11:54
DocScrutinizer05so with a 6 weeks delay to my own former plans, I now *really* need to think about whether or not I can do this project or shall cancel it11:54
wpwrak6 weeks accumulated or 6 weeks projected ? (in any case, delays are normal :)11:55
DocScrutinizer05my original plans said "2014-01-01: decide if the project is feasible or cancel it"11:56
wpwrakand, how's the list of blockers evolving ?11:56
wpwrakin any case, if you have delays or new issues, don't be shy to talk about them11:57
DocScrutinizer05at that time around new year it looked good but I missed to look at the internal organizational issues and how to solve them11:57
wpwrakpeople hate to be left in the dark. but if you tell them that something is wrong and what you're doing to fix it, they're happy11:57
DocScrutinizer05the blocker is: we got no consensus about who's doing what11:58
DocScrutinizer05and what the product should look like11:58
wpwrak(org) ah, i thought nikolaus would basically project-manage and you'd do the engineering11:58
DocScrutinizer05it turned around11:58
wpwrakwell, about who's doing what, make a list, get all the people who are involved or who want to (and have something to contribute) on the table and hash it out11:58
DocScrutinizer05and he's not very interested in my project management11:59
wpwrakso do you have mainly overlaps or mainly holes ?11:59
wpwrak"not very interested in my project management" = he doesn't want you to manage things ? or, he doesn't want to manage you ?12:00
DocScrutinizer05pup plain: I announce "while we're basically planning to sell complete devices ready to use, we also will offer swap mianboard for you" and he's not interested in sourcing of cases12:00
DocScrutinizer05put*12:00
wpwrak(cases) hmm. does he think it's too hard ? or just not interested ? or maybe too risky ? (QA, EU regulations, etc.)12:02
DocScrutinizer05I dunno12:02
wpwrak(cases) also, has he disagreed with you in public or in private ? if in public, what were the reactions ?12:03
wpwrakwell, he should explain himself a little :)12:03
DocScrutinizer05he simply focuses on building the boards and ignores my requests to get case samples etc12:03
wpwrakah, i see. yes, you'd need these12:03
wpwrakcould you justify the case samples as testing that the board will work in cases customers source on their own ?12:04
DocScrutinizer05when a helpful guy asked about what he should ask for at that company in UAE, Nikolaus answered "well we don't need any of that stuff"12:04
wpwrakthat way, you could defer the resolution of the conflict ...12:05
DocScrutinizer05(it's only cases etc)12:05
wpwrakcompany in UAE ?12:05
DocScrutinizer05nevermind, not relevant12:05
DocScrutinizer05since 8 weeks the only thing we discuss internally is friggin business stuff12:06
wpwrakalas, that's important, too12:06
DocScrutinizer05and no solution I come up seems feasible for GDC12:06
wpwrakbe happy that he takes care of all the bureaucracy for you12:06
wpwraksolution ... for cases ? or other stuff ?12:07
DocScrutinizer05sure, like the workers in sotchi?12:07
DocScrutinizer05for business agreements12:07
wpwraksotchi = your fab ?12:07
DocScrutinizer05sotchi = oolympia12:07
wpwrakah yes, the world mass surveillance summit12:08
DocScrutinizer05"what? payment? be happy you got no tzrouble with all the papers!"12:08
wpwrakthat's roughly how i'd think of such administrivia ;-)12:08
DocScrutinizer05that's roughly what you suggested I should accept from GDC12:09
DocScrutinizer05sure I'm allowed to get case samples... when I pay for them12:09
DocScrutinizer05I'm paying for the server neo900.org12:10
wpwrakhe needs to relax a bit on your budget12:10
DocScrutinizer05what budget?12:10
wpwrakaso that shuold come from the project. you don't have money for that12:10
wpwrakisn't he sitting on some 67 kEUR + interest ? :)12:11
DocScrutinizer05we have no contract, I have no budget.12:11
wpwraknota bene, all provided as "donation". so if it comes to that, it's burn money12:11
wpwrakyou don't need a contract - a gentleman't agreement can be just fine. but you need to have a common understanding.12:12
DocScrutinizer05he can't pass any of that to me, it's on a invoice from GDC, every single cent donated12:12
wpwrakthere's no point in him blocking you from what you have to do12:12
DocScrutinizer05exactly12:12
DocScrutinizer05except for him defining what I have to do12:12
DocScrutinizer05and getting case samples is not on that list of stuff he defined for my tasks12:13
wpwrakwhy can't he pass things to you ? "werbeausgaben" ? or put you on some service contract and make that part of the materials he provides. problem solved.12:13
wpwrakmaybe the things would still nominally be GDC's property, but who cares12:13
DocScrutinizer05such contract is what we're negotiating since 8 weeks now12:13
DocScrutinizer05to no success12:13
wpwrakah, i see. what's the problem spot there ?12:14
DocScrutinizer05as I said above, no solution I come up with is acceptable to GDC12:14
wpwrakany details ?12:14
DocScrutinizer05nah, complexity of suggested solutions from his side increases by the week, and when I write it down and start to implement it, he changes his mind12:15
DocScrutinizer056 weeks ago we planned to get a GmbH and transfer all donations to that GmbH account. GDC gets back VAT and UG pays VAT12:17
DocScrutinizer05current state: can't be done12:17
wpwrakcan't GDC simply continue running things and just contract you ?12:17
DocScrutinizer05I wasted 6 weeks or more to found a GmbH12:17
DocScrutinizer05well, for how much? 400EUR/month?12:18
wpwrakwhatever you two agree on12:18
DocScrutinizer05whatever is feasible. Nikolaus defines what's feasible. I usually agree that a salary that's sufficient to make a living is NOT feasible12:19
wpwrakso you disagree on the amount ?12:19
DocScrutinizer05no we agree that the amount needed isn't feasible12:20
wpwrak;-)12:20
wpwrakso you plan to live on an amount you can't live on ? or do you plan to seek other sources of income ?12:20
DocScrutinizer05I can't accept an employment that is some 600 or 1000 bucks bruto per month12:22
DocScrutinizer05employment means I (and my employer) need to pay taxes and health insurance and whatnot else12:23
larscso you work for free?12:23
DocScrutinizer05I did so far, hoping sending an invoice about some 5k bucks for R&D (estimated 9 months of work), plus a few bucks per device sold12:24
wpwrakthat's if you're an employee. if you're just contracting, the "employer" has no such obligations, at least not if it's only for a relatively short while (e.g., you can't do this for several years - see "scheinselbststaendigkeit")12:24
DocScrutinizer05that's what we started with, but GDC doesn't feel like being able to do that12:25
wpwrakdunno what sort of obligations you have as the contractor. generally less than an employee (via the employer) would have. but there are some. ask people who have worked that way, e.g., roh. he'll know.12:25
DocScrutinizer05then came GmbH suggestion12:25
DocScrutinizer05then a week or two ago, GmbH suggestion got cancelled12:26
wpwrakthat's by far the easiest approach. gmbh and all that is a LOT more complex.12:26
DocScrutinizer05and all that is just the fsckng business part of it12:27
wpwraknote that a contractor has no "minimum wage" or such either. you can just charge by the hour, however little or much that it.12:27
DocScrutinizer05nothing about product specs yet, nothing about project management12:27
wpwrakwell, you have to start somewhere :)12:27
DocScrutinizer05I'm fed up with it12:28
DocScrutinizer05since 4 days12:28
wpwrakwould nikolaus still be involved in the GmbH ?12:28
DocScrutinizer05initially we planned that, then he agreed that it's not needed. (just before he basically cancelled the whole GmbH idea)12:28
wpwrakagreed ... so you didn't want him there ? or did he want out ?12:29
DocScrutinizer05we both agreed that it makes no sense, since *his* margin per device is secured by him buiolding the boards12:29
wpwrakor does he want you out ? it seems that there's a bit of a passive-aggressive war, but i don't quite see about what12:30
wpwrak"makes no sense' = the cases, the GmbH, ... ?12:30
DocScrutinizer05him being part of the GmbH12:30
DocScrutinizer05but then he noticed that he cannot transfer the donations to the GmbH account12:31
DocScrutinizer05so what for do we *need* a GmbH at all?12:31
wpwrakso the GmBH would get the money, parts ordered so far, and project responsibility, and would then contract GDC for making the boards12:31
wpwrakhehe :)12:31
wpwrakyes, that's a problem12:32
DocScrutinizer05yes, and I'm fed up with it12:32
lekernelDocScrutinizer05, if you want to stay in paperwork-land (I'm happy to GTFO to Hong Kong by the end of the year), a e.V. might also work12:32
wpwrakbut couldn't the GbmH be be daughter of GDC ?12:32
wpwrakthen transferring assets should be fine12:32
lekerneland is less paperwork BS than a GmbH, and you can transfer donations12:32
DocScrutinizer05NFC12:32
wpwraksounds like an idea12:33
lekernelit's much cheaper to found, too12:33
DocScrutinizer05look, all donations are booked to GDC bookkeeping. VAT got paid. Last year's bilance done.12:33
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus telling me he can't move the money to thr GmbH12:34
DocScrutinizer05he can't move the money anywhere, since now GDC owns it12:34
lekernelyou can invoice GDC from a e.V.12:34
wpwrakit he can't move it he doesn't own it12:34
DocScrutinizer05no matter wht our customers thought they are donating to, they effectively donated for a GDC project12:35
DocScrutinizer05and no matter what suggestion I come up with to solve that problem, something doesn't work at GDC side12:36
wpwrakso why not leave the money at GDC then ? he can still use it, can't he ?12:36
wpwrake.g., to contract a certain joerg for some tasks he chooses to outsource12:37
DocScrutinizer05so when Neo900 is a GDC project, what motivation do I have to continue it?12:37
lekernelcan a GmbH receive donations in Germany? iirc there are some countries that don't allow such arrangements12:37
wpwrakdo you care if its says "GDC" somewhere (instead of Joerg Ltd.) ?12:38
DocScrutinizer05yes, that been the initial idea. But he insists on me writing an invoice for like 20h per month, for a timespan of like 6 months12:38
DocScrutinizer05that's pretty impossible for +my* bookkeeping, and it doesn't solve any of the royalties-per-device issues12:39
wpwrakwhat's the problem for your bookkeeping ?12:39
DocScrutinizer05e.g health insurance12:40
wpwrakand the royalties ... you could a) factor them into the invoice, b) negotiate them on the side. especially if they would be on "new" money, which then wouldn't have the "donation" constraints12:40
DocScrutinizer05I eaither earn proper money or nothing at all. i'll starve and get sick from 800EUr/mo12:40
larscgrab your favorite music instrument and go playing in the city center12:41
wpwrakso you want him to pay you without declaring it to the authorities ? i.e., moonlighting ?12:41
DocScrutinizer05yeah sure. To earn the money needed to work for Neo900 project12:41
DocScrutinizer05that's about like it12:41
wpwrakyeah, i can see why that wouldn't work ;-)12:42
wpwrakbut a GmbH wouldn't have solved that either12:42
DocScrutinizer05no12:42
DocScrutinizer05a gmbH has no income per se12:42
DocScrutinizer05it's the "nothing at all" option12:43
wpwrakbut you couldn't dispose of its money for your own ends, so you'd have to pay yourself a salary or such, which would create exactly the same issues12:43
DocScrutinizer05meh12:43
wpwrakor you could "steal" from your GmbH. but i doubt you're the first to think of such things ;-)12:43
DocScrutinizer05we're through with GmbH either way, no matter about me now explaining to you how it been supposed to work12:44
wpwrakbe glad that he didn't to the GmbH. you'd be processed for tax evasion with that scheme12:44
wpwrak#s/do/to/12:44
DocScrutinizer05fact been we very initially agreed on 5k payment and he later on insisted on me writing in the invoice that this been for 6 month of work, which I can't do12:45
wpwraknaw, try to do that by the book. find out what you have to do to comply with the regulations, get the cheapest options where, and work on a contract12:45
DocScrutinizer05damn, we did for the last 10 weeks12:45
lekernelDocScrutinizer05, what difference does it make, how many months of work it had been?12:45
DocScrutinizer05or 4 months actually12:46
wpwrakhow long have you been working on the project so far ?12:46
DocScrutinizer05lekernel: it makes a damn lot of difference when I pay 6 moths of health insurance or just one12:46
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: irrelevant. Ask how long I work for the project per MONTH12:47
wpwrakhmm, not sure which date determines when that health insurance requirements starts12:47
wpwrakit may well be that it only starts when you actually start seeing money12:47
lekernelmh. when registered as a freelancer, aren't you paying for health insurance a fixed amount every month in Germany, regardless of your invoice volume?12:47
wpwraklekernel: he probably isn't12:48
wpwrak(registered as a freelancer)12:48
DocScrutinizer05there's no logical reason why I should work 95% per month for free, for 6 months. Instead of 5 months 100% free and one month only 50% free and get paiod for 50%12:48
lekernelwell, you need to be registered to write an invoice at all12:48
lekerneland health insurance payments start at registration (and have nothing to do with the invoices you write), as I understand it12:48
DocScrutinizer05exactly12:48
DocScrutinizer05and I can't write an invoice for timespan where I wasn't registered12:49
lekernelI doubt they would check that...12:49
DocScrutinizer05all hell breaks loose12:49
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you may pay more taxes if you get 5 kEUR in one pop. but besides that, it's not a unreasonable amount for just one month or work. or in fact 2 weeks.12:49
DocScrutinizer05yes12:50
wpwrak#s/or/of/12:50
DocScrutinizer05but i pay LOTS more of e.g. health insurance12:50
larscyou can actually register up to three month later than you acutally started working, iirc12:51
wpwrakso what you have to do is a) register, b) get ready to pay what they require of you. there may also be provisions for low income / startups they give you better conditions, at least for a while12:51
DocScrutinizer05and tell you what: I'm totally fed up with this sort of discussion since I had that, geuss when and with whom12:51
lekernelwpwrak, provisions for startups are rotten12:51
wpwrakc) we still need to solve the problem of why nikolaus doesn't want to pay in one pop12:52
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: what it his argument against just billing it all for one month ?12:52
DocScrutinizer05the result of days and days of exactly this discussion been: so let#s found a GmbH12:52
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: NFC12:52
DocScrutinizer05something about his bookkeeping and tax advisor12:53
wpwrakwell, he should explain himself :)12:53
wpwrakaah. well, could be that you'd be more expensive than the rest of the company.12:54
DocScrutinizer05you know, I start to fail assuming best intent12:54
wpwrakmaybe you'd have to split it into two parts to dodge any suspicion12:54
wpwraki think there's a good amount of confusion involved on both sides12:54
DocScrutinizer05what the fuck is my problem with "rest of company"?12:54
wpwrakwell, you don't want him to get a tax audit because of suspicious shift in his spending pattern, wouldn't you ?12:55
wpwraktax audit = he basically has to shut down for a while and spend a small fortune on his tax advisor. that doesn't help anyone.12:56
DocScrutinizer05fact is I#m trying to get that shit sorted since 4 months, i#m working for the project since >6 months, and I have *zilch* paper in my hands that guarantees me anything beyond users going after me with pirchforks and torches when GDC fucks up12:57
wpwrakmaybe the two of you plus his tax advisor should get together and talk this through face to face. you should find out what costs get created for you if you register as a freelancer and you should also define what amount of money you need per month to be able to continue working on the project.12:58
lekernelmeanwhile, google dodges dozens of millions of euros of taxes in Germany :)12:58
wpwrakalso, define what additional payments you expect when it reaches production. put it all on the table at once, not bit by bit. that only confuses things.12:59
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I offered whatever he needs as invoice, as long as it isn't explicitly claiming when the hours got done. When he can't come up with any invoice satisfying that, that doesn't give him an audit, then I dunno what's GDC12:59
wpwraklekernel: one EUR hidden from the state is tax evasion. one million is valuable business. billions mean that they politely ask you if you need to be bailed out, in case you're not rich enough yet.13:00
DocScrutinizer05I'm not hiding any income13:01
lekernelyeah, I'm getting the hell out of Europe13:01
larscto sealand?13:01
lekernelHong Kong13:01
DocScrutinizer05I just insist on reasonable wages per hour and a simple invoice like writing one every day (some of the past years)13:02
wpwrakas long as you don't buy a connection to moscow ...13:02
larscDocScrutinizer05: if there is no money for that, there is no money for that13:03
DocScrutinizer05working for some 10EUR per hour is embarrassing13:03
DocScrutinizer05larsc: eh?13:03
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: well, if his bookkeeping process requires you to declare having worked for months already, and pay insurance and possibly some other fees for that, you should factor this into the amount you're asking for13:03
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: the amount available to ask for is fixed13:03
wpwrakthen he has the choice: 1) ask you for 6 months and pay you more or 2) ask you for a shorter interval (as short as his tax advisor is comfortable with) and pay less13:04
DocScrutinizer05we even published that to Neo900 customers13:04
DocScrutinizer05we have 25kEUR to spend13:04
DocScrutinizer05after VAT and all, there are 5k left for me13:05
DocScrutinizer05see http://neo900.org/#donate "Phase 3"13:05
wpwrakdon't worry too much about what you promised to your customers. again, do the calculations. if you end up with something that simply doens't work, it doesn't matter what you promised. people make honest mistakes all the time.13:05
DocScrutinizer05dang, it works as long as nobody insists in making his internal salary policy look good13:07
DocScrutinizer05when I write an invoice for a service, I *never* list the hours I spent13:07
DocScrutinizer05WTF does GDC need an invoice where not only number of hours and wage per hour is listed, but even when every hour got done?13:08
wpwrakwell, let's assume you do what he wants. first, do you know whether you'd be obliged to register from 6 months ago or would it be okay if you register before making the invoice ?13:08
wpwrak"when every hours" he wants an hourly breakdown ? or "xxx hours spend from xx.xx.2013-xx.xx.2014" ?13:09
DocScrutinizer05no, i won't assume such thing. Leads nowhere13:09
wpwrakso you're saying there is no solution13:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, he wants a hourly breakdown basically13:09
wpwraki.e., you have given up already13:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, since 4 days13:10
wpwrakhourly breakdown is stupid. he doesn't need that.13:10
DocScrutinizer05exactly13:10
DocScrutinizer05he doesn't need hours at all13:10
DocScrutinizer05I'm a company offering a product, not a bricklayer13:10
wpwrakit could be that he's nervous because of the "donation" state of the money, but this still seems excessive. it's like buying chips and asking the factory for a list of fabrication dates13:12
wpwrakwell, down to the hour. you often do get dates, though :) ... with week resolution13:13
DocScrutinizer05I'm temped to cancel Neo900, create Neo900i and get another company to build the hardware according to my specs. Not hard at all13:13
larscit will be hard to convice people to donate again though13:14
DocScrutinizer05yes13:14
larscyou two should really get together and try to figure this out13:14
DocScrutinizer05I'm sick meanwhile13:14
DocScrutinizer05time to do that would've been 6 weeks ago13:15
wpwraki suppose all that communication has been by e-mail ?13:15
DocScrutinizer05yes13:15
wpwrakhave the two of you actually ever met ?13:15
larscthe thing I always try to assume in such a situation is not to assume bad intentions on the other side but rather communication issues13:15
DocScrutinizer05once, in err 2009 or so13:15
wpwrakwow ;-)13:16
DocScrutinizer05see, that's maybe a reason why I get double nervous without any paper in my hands13:16
DocScrutinizer05and I announced that, 3 weeks ago13:17
wpwraklarsc: yes, i see two "difficult" people using a communication channel that's not very good for conflict resolution to discuss a complex problems where they have disagreeing positions and where both are unsure about what their options are13:17
DocScrutinizer05yep. And I am at an end with my options to solve this 13:18
DocScrutinizer05so maybe Neo900 failed due to organizational overhead being too cumbersome13:18
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i'd recommend you ask nikolaus to set up a meeting with you and his tax advisor. prepare your numbers. ask him to prepare his. then you can try to find a solution.13:18
DocScrutinizer05we have all numbers, they got tossed forth and back several times13:19
roheh.. well.. it may be that he needs 'hours' and dates for tax reasons13:20
wpwrakso you already know for sure that you'd have to pay those 6 months if you registered today (with the intent of billing work done in the past) ?13:20
DocScrutinizer05that's for sure13:20
rohi also have to write invoices that way... what went down, when and how long. if not precisely hours atleast thjere needs to be a 'fulfilment date' and place13:20
roh'xx hours consulting project foobar - KW 23 - fooothousand euros' should be enough.13:21
wpwrakoften time periods are enough, yes13:21
wpwraksometimes you may get asked to provide a more detailed breakdown. maybe down to days, if they're really picky. doens't happen often, though13:22
DocScrutinizer05I wouldn't even mind hours by detailled breakdown. Just i'm not willing to spread them across 6 months13:24
wpwrakof course, it's silly for those last 6 months. to find a position you can agree on, you could try to get GDC to reduce the number of months. i'm sure 6 months is just ballpark number that's not a hard limit. the tax advisor would feel less good about 5, even less about 4, and maybe he't start to sweat at 3. then you could settle at 3.13:24
wpwraksure, because of the deferred payments13:24
DocScrutinizer05while in fact I'm working twice as much each single month13:25
wpwrakwell, you could of course project it in the future but that would mean that you don't get paid everything now13:25
DocScrutinizer05who talked about *now*?13:25
DocScrutinizer05i don't mind when I'm paid13:25
wpwrakyou don't need the money after all ? :)13:26
DocScrutinizer05I worry IF I'm paid13:26
wpwrakwell, if you don't care about the date, register now, then send a monthly invoice13:26
DocScrutinizer05bullshit!!!!13:26
wpwrakthought so ;-)13:26
DocScrutinizer05you thought?13:27
wpwraki didn't expect you to agree with that ;-)13:27
DocScrutinizer05aha13:27
DocScrutinizer05then why did you suggest it?13:27
wpwrakbecause it would conform to what you said you'd accept13:27
DocScrutinizer05yes, *I* would accept it, but Nikolaus won't13:28
wpwrakah, why wouldn't he accept monthly invoices from now on ?13:28
wpwrakthat's ionteresting13:28
DocScrutinizer05I will NOT write monthly invoices, for reasons I elaborated ad nauseum in this channel during last 60 min13:29
DocScrutinizer05I will only write ONE invoice13:29
wpwrakso you plan is to register as a freelancer, write that invoice, get the cash, then immediately unregister ?13:30
DocScrutinizer05with only ONE work package, done in ONE month13:30
DocScrutinizer05yes13:30
DocScrutinizer05unless we continue to earn money then, e.g. by +selling* devices13:30
DocScrutinizer05which is not what we're doing right now13:31
DocScrutinizer05thus Nikolaus will not accept me invoicing him right now for those 5k13:31
DocScrutinizer05obvious, no?13:31
wpwraki wonder if that actually could work. it's such an obvious evasion plan that i doubt they don't have obstacles in place for it.13:31
DocScrutinizer05evasion of WHAT? friggin shit!13:32
DocScrutinizer05evasion of having a company registered that doesn't have any income?13:32
lekernelfirst it'll probably take months to register/unregister, with an appropriately inane amount of paperwork and maybe a couple notar/finanzamt/amtsgericht/whatever visits (I quickly abandoned that way...)13:32
DocScrutinizer05no, it won't13:33
wpwrakwell, live on welfare, work in secret, then register for payday, immediately unregister again, and repeat. i'm sure others have thought of that before. and german tax law isn't particularly famous for trying to let you get away with things, that is, unless you're rich enough13:33
DocScrutinizer05I don't need no Notar or amtsgericht or whatever. I give my finanzamt a call and reactivate my tax number and company13:34
DocScrutinizer05take an hour13:34
wpwraklekernel: so how did you do it ?13:34
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you're mad?13:34
lekernelI've been paying taxes in France, which are also a mess, but less so than Germany13:34
wpwrakaah. clever :)13:34
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: why don't you suggest I confess I worked for Neo900 last 30 years "hidden"?13:35
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i'm not talking about you here. your case is more complicated. but think of someone who only works on things he gets paid for.13:35
DocScrutinizer05I'm absolutely free to work on whatever Iike, and not charge for it13:36
DocScrutinizer05and next month I'm free to decide that now I charge and write an invoice13:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: such a person could work like that, too: be unemployed, but work in silence, then activate the registration, collect the pay, then become unemployed again. and so on. you'd call that an evasion scheme, wouldn't you ?13:36
lekernelDocScrutinizer05, and wow, you seem to have a particularly efficient finanzamt13:36
DocScrutinizer05lekernel: my company been registered before, it's just "sleeping"13:37
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: sure, when that person would claim to have worked 600 hours a 300EUR per hour, I for sure would suspect that something wrong there13:38
DocScrutinizer05when however that person would invoice for an 80h a 60EUR which is what that person did every single time when writing invoice (except of course when proper 160h per month been invoiced) then I probably had a hard time finding anything fishy13:40
wpwraki think some of the difficulties may come from you trying to do something that's at least suspicious. that in turn causes issues on the GDC side because it's "weird". and if you have an unfriendly tax authority you don't want to appear as "weird".13:40
DocScrutinizer05I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING SUSPICIOUS!13:40
wpwrakand with "suspicious" i don't mean that it couldn't be explained such that it makes sense and seems legit to common sense. tax authorities don't use common sense. they have their laws and sometimes very bizarre interpretations of them.13:41
DocScrutinizer05me working for 15bucks/h for only 15h per month, now THAT would be truly suspicious13:41
wpwrakbah, stacking crates for golden delicious. that's a GOOD salary ;-)13:42
DocScrutinizer05I'm not willing to stake crates for Nikolaus13:42
lekernelDocScrutinizer05, don't let the b├╝rokrats mess with neo900. worst case, expatriate yourself :)13:43
wpwrakfor apple ! it's golden ! and it's delicious ! ;-)13:43
DocScrutinizer05and I'm not wuilling to lie about that for Nikolaus13:43
wpwrakyeah, escape to switzerland before they drop the "personenfreizuegigkeit". there, such things are very lean. you mention the stuff in you next annual tax declaration and that's about it.13:44
DocScrutinizer05and I'm not willing to have such a ugly shit in my own bookkeeping, just to make Nikolaus happy13:44
wpwrakyou have mandatory health insurance anyway, so you won't escape that, though13:44
DocScrutinizer05I'm not working for 10EUR/h13:44
DocScrutinizer05never!13:44
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: please stop assuming stuff you don't know details about13:45
wpwrakoh, i know how these things work in switzerland. i lived there and also worked as freelancer. very pleasantly easy. superbly light bureaucracy. they even let me walk off with some CHF 50k in taxes I didn't have to pay because they had changed the calculation period and i had just "fallen" into that gap13:47
DocScrutinizer05I don't care about swizzerland, I'm talking about you claiming facts about my insurance status13:48
wpwrakthat was still about switzerland13:48
wpwrakthere, health insurance is mandatory13:48
larschere too13:48
wpwrak(well, or at least it was in 2002)13:48
DocScrutinizer05for now I got insurance. This might change when some of your statements of last hour would get too loud13:49
DocScrutinizer05I'm trying to manage a rather delicate situation that can get nasty for me13:49
wpwrakas i understand it, for now the state pays your insurance, but if you had a regular income, that would change and you'd have to pay for it13:50
DocScrutinizer05and know what? the easiest ans safest thing to do for me was: ZILCH13:50
wpwrakwell yes, but it means that you can't have an income. that's called the "welfare trap"13:51
DocScrutinizer05so probably that#s what I'm going to do: zilch13:51
wpwrakthe welfare trap works like this: you're fine as long as you don't work. but if you work, all you earn - and possibly even more than that - will be consumed by benefits you're then no longer entitled to13:52
wpwrakso to "get out of welfare", you need to make a certain minimum income before it's actually worth the effort13:52
DocScrutinizer05I'm free to do with my spare time whatever I want. You suggesting I do suspicious stuff and spread my income across times where I claim I don't have any might get me into severe trouble13:52
DocScrutinizer05and I'm not willing to deal with this trouble, neither from you nor from Nikolaus for sake of his beauty tax book keeping13:54
wpwraki'm not suggesting that. i'm suggesting to try and find a way to "regularize" your situation. i.e., make what you get a proper income, with all the consequences that entails. of course, this also means, as i've described, that it can't be arbitrarily low.13:54
DocScrutinizer05yeah, sure. Will you pay for that?13:54
wpwrakyou already have my share in the pool. i see nothing wrong with a good part of that going into your pocket.13:55
DocScrutinizer05or do you suggest I go rogue and abuse the down payments users did on Neo900?13:55
larsccocaine!13:55
rohisnt the usual concept, 'gimme all that money' and run?13:56
rohah.. no.. that was investment banking13:56
rohsorry for the confusion ;)13:56
wpwrakwell, you consider them down payments, but they're called donations and GDC has been treating them as such. might as well use them in that sense :)13:56
DocScrutinizer05>>Your donation will also serve as a rebate for a finished device.<<13:57
wpwrak(of course, i always said that trying to treat them as downpayments wasn't such a good idea. now you see why. alas, budget overruns are all too common  ...)13:57
rohmaybe you guys should have figured out the tax issues beforehand13:57
DocScrutinizer05what tax issues?13:57
rohor whatever your confusion iss all about13:58
DocScrutinizer05confusion?13:58
rohwell.. maybe i should rather call it 'complications'13:58
wpwrakroh: i'd say they basically "forgot" to include a suitable compensation for joerg who has to work full-time on this13:59
DocScrutinizer05no, and that wouldn't have worked to start with13:59
DocScrutinizer05and never been intended13:59
rohwpwrak: i dont think somebody forgot. that sounds much too 'accidental' ;)13:59
wpwrakroh: then joerg came up with a plan where he could get by on very little money, but it requires probing the limits of the rules. and GDC are not entirely comfortable with that.13:59
DocScrutinizer05there IS NO DAMN PROBING OF ANY LIMITS!!!14:00
rohany why doesnt GDC hire joerg as an employee then? i mean.. if the money is there, then there IS a way. if one wants it to work.14:00
DocScrutinizer05there IS NO MONEy FOR THAT14:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: again, the fact that you're not doing anything illegal doesn't mean that an unfriendly tax auditor wouldn't try to screw you anyway14:01
DocScrutinizer05bullshit14:01
rohwriting invoices or hiring somebody is no magic. and working without money doesnt work either. thats nothing new.14:01
wpwrakroh: as i said, they under-budgeted for joerg's work14:01
DocScrutinizer05they try to screw me every single day of my life. So what?14:01
wpwrak;-)14:01
rohthe tax guys are ok. just dont try to screw them. they dont like that at all. be honest and they can be fair too.14:02
rohatleast compared to evil customers and banks and stuff.14:02
DocScrutinizer05unless some more of such  nonsense staements from your side and they finally make it to some bored tax officer, I don't think an invoice for 80h at 50EUR will get me into ANY trouble14:02
lekernelstill, they should rather focus on taxing google than neo90014:03
rohDocScrutinizer05: why should it? i dont get that.14:03
wpwrakroh: do you know of any free (gratis) place that could also provide advice in this issue ? handelskammer or such ?14:03
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: btw how's you child porn collection?14:03
rohwpwrak: what tax questions?14:03
DocScrutinizer05roh: ask wpwrak14:04
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: it's great. those little girls have all grown to be the beautiful women, as one can see ;-)14:04
rohDocScrutinizer05: the only thing one could want on such an invoice would be 'which month' or 'weeks' that work was done. the rest doesnt interrest tax guys.14:04
DocScrutinizer05perfectly fine with me14:05
DocScrutinizer05done in may 201414:05
DocScrutinizer052nd and 3rd week14:05
DocScrutinizer05but GDC doesn't like that14:05
wpwrakroh: well, the issue is: they have only a limited amount of money. joerg has done "pro bono" work for a while. now he needs money. they want to pay him with that limited amount. they (GDC) fear if they just send 5k over, that would ring alarm bells.14:05
rohtotal bullshit14:06
DocScrutinizer05no, that's again incorrect14:06
DocScrutinizer05I don't need any money *now*14:06
rohat 5k they dont even flinch. just keep your papers in order. nothing uncommon at all.14:06
wpwrakroh: joerg wants to basically interrupt his unemployment for a few days, collect the money, then become unemployed again. this in turn will look suspicious. there may also be other obstacles he isn't aware of yet.14:06
DocScrutinizer05I told you before - shall I quote?14:07
DocScrutinizer05again icorrect? shall I quote?14:07
wpwrakso when do you need the money ?14:07
rohwpwrak: that doesnt work at all. you basically need to be broke to apply (depends on some more factors) but in the end it says that 'you need to tap your own reserves first' and then you can apply.14:07
DocScrutinizer05exactly14:08
DocScrutinizer05[2014-02-17 14:30:45] <DocScrutinizer05> unless we continue to earn money then, e.g. by +selling* devices14:08
wpwrakroh: well, i suppose some unemployment benefits kick in a little quicker. but yes, in the big picture, it's that14:08
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: okay, so make a contract that you'll get paid in the future. let's say for intellectual properly rights.14:09
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: please don't think I'm an idiot trying to find clever ways to cheat but never having looked into the whole matter14:09
DocScrutinizer05I laready suggested this14:09
DocScrutinizer05GDC rejected14:09
rohwpwrak: they put the clamps on pretty hard the last few years, so i find it much easier and less work to work a bit than to do all the paperwork to stay unemployed and NOT hungry. thats why i work, not the money.14:09
wpwrakwith what explanation ?14:10
DocScrutinizer05sorry I constantly fail to remember the explanations, they are like 50 lines long and pretty weird14:10
wpwrakroh: mission accomplished (for them) ;-)14:10
rohwpwrak: when it comes to me, maybe... we'll see how that works our when i am old. its not that i could put anything away right now.14:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: they could also contract you also as, say, production consultant. again, you'd then only start working when production begins14:11
DocScrutinizer05sure14:12
DocScrutinizer05I'm tired of suggesting stuff14:12
wpwrakroh: longevity is overrated anyway ;-)14:12
DocScrutinizer05I suggested stuff for 10 weeks now14:12
DocScrutinizer05such contract could even get signed right away14:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: :-) well, i think you guys should really meet face to face. where's little point in you sending detailed plans, then them sending back elaborate rejections, and on and on14:13
DocScrutinizer05no matter when production starts14:13
DocScrutinizer05exactly, no point in that any longer14:13
wpwrakyes, contract ... or letter of understanding, since it's still with uncertain dates14:14
nicksydneywpwrak: i checked the .pdf for the kicad modules from the anelok kicad libraries but can't find CR2032 or am i missing something ?14:14
wpwrakso, why not ask nikolaus to grab his tax advisor and you meet for some cold beers and discuss the situation ?14:14
DocScrutinizer05a) tax advisors have no time for beers, b) he's living in Munich, I'm in Nuernberg14:15
DocScrutinizer05it's not like Nikolaus employs that tax advisor14:16
wpwraknicksydney: yes ;-) there's a number of them in there ... well, only two at the moment, should include more. BAT-LP2032SM, BAT-BLP2032SM14:16
DocScrutinizer05c) I'm pissed14:16
nicksydneyok let me check again 14:17
wpwraknuernberg - muenchen, ICE, 1:07 to 1:41, 55 EUR one-way. seems feasible :)14:18
wpwraka) well, the tax advisor doesn't have to drink ;-)14:19
wpwrakc) yeah :-(14:19
DocScrutinizer0555EUR? maybe, but I don't see me paying any ct more for the project14:20
lekernelGDC should be able to pay you train tickets14:21
wpwrakb) nuernberg - muenchen, RE, 01:51 (gives you some time to prepare your plan, or to take relaxing nap), return trip, EUR 35.40. wow, now that's really easy :)14:21
DocScrutinizer05I already payd 1000s from my own pocket14:21
lekernelDB will give them the paperwork they need for their accounting14:21
DocScrutinizer05lekernel: GDC should be able to pay 12EUR/month for a server at hetzner, too?14:22
wpwrakthere definitely is a problem with their spending policy14:22
DocScrutinizer05guess who paid Sebastian (dos1) for his expense14:23
lekerneland those tickets can be reasonably declared to be a business-related expense14:23
wpwrakit's called "pennywise smark, poundwise foolish". avoid spending a few EUR even if you put the whole project at risk. that doesn't make sense.14:23
wpwrak#s/smark/smart/14:23
nicksydneywpwrak: i can see the file modules/lp2032sm.fpd ..but in terms of the component in the schematics normally what do you use for the symbol ? is it normal power +5v ?14:24
DocScrutinizer05GDC so far avoided ANY sign of support for the support for Neo900 project from anybody else14:24
lekernelsome variant of Parkinson's law of triviality ;)14:24
wpwraknicksydney: i'd just use a two-pin connector, e.g., CONN_214:25
wpwraknicksydney: feel free to draw and submit a battery symbol, though :)14:25
larscI'm in Nuernberg next week, I can pick you up and drop you off in front of Dr. Nics office an the way back ;)14:25
nicksydneywpwrak: let's see if i can come up something interesting for the battery symbol :)14:26
wpwraklarsc: physically dragging him there may be the only way to make this work ;-)14:26
DocScrutinizer05not even an email with some statement that would be provable later on14:26
DocScrutinizer05larsc: thanks but I don't see that getting anywhere14:27
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you mean "thank you for all the hours you graciously donated to the project" ? :) 14:27
DocScrutinizer05I mean something you could call him out for later on14:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i think you keep on hitting the same problem: you a) don't want any assets that would change your tax status, but you b) want assets that ensure future compensation. maybe they could issue some sort of shares or IOUs, but that may be another can of worms and they may still get you into trouble with taxes (e.g., they could demand you sell them or hand them over)14:29
DocScrutinizer05well, initially I thought I had some pdf attachment that stated "joerg: 5k" but given how fast things change back and forth with UG and everything, this is just as worthless14:30
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: again incorrect14:30
wpwrakif you want to maintain that sort of situation, a "gentleman's agreement" is probably all you can hope for. but that needs trust. at the moment, it seems neither of you trusts the other. one way to build trust is to meet people. that why i'm suggesting a personal meeting.14:31
nicksydneywpwrak: having a blonde moment...how do i generate from fpd to mod file ?14:32
nicksydneywpwrak: can see lp2032sm.fpd .. assume that i need to execute something to generate the mod file correct ?14:32
wpwraknicksydney: in the GUI, File > Write KiCad14:33
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: and when I at least could get a "gentlemen agreement" that actually has some real agreement in it, I'd be probably fine14:33
nicksydneywpwrak: run fped ?14:33
wpwrakwithout gui: fped -k input.fpd output.mod14:33
wpwrakyes, running fped14:33
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: please note that my suggestion to write an invoice for 80h done in may got rejected14:34
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, you need to agree on what you'll get first. then how to implement that.14:34
wpwrakthat's why i'm saying the tax advisor has to be on the table. that way, you can go though things quickly and you can ask for explanations when things don't seem to make sense14:35
DocScrutinizer05rejected since "GDC needs an invoice3 with hours listed and they need to be spread across several months"14:35
wpwrakthis will help all of you to develop a better understanding of each side's requirements and possibilities14:35
DocScrutinizer05sorry, it doesn't help me to understand *why* GDC needs an invoice with hours liszed for dec jan feb mar apr may14:36
wpwraksince you don't want the money now, that whole story arc seems irrelevant anyway14:37
DocScrutinizer05yeah sure14:37
nicksydneythought i can design something small like 2cm x 2cm but apparently the battery itself is BIG14:37
wpwrakjust be sure you really don't want/need anything before production14:37
DocScrutinizer05I can go on just doing nothing14:37
wpwraknicksydney: 20 mm in diameter :)14:38
DocScrutinizer05and hoping for a solution to all that mess coming up magivcally later on while ven now I can't write an invoice for nov dec 201314:38
wpwrakin psychology, this is called "denial". avoid dealing with a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.14:38
DocScrutinizer05for sure we will find a better solution when I wait another 3 months making stuff clear14:39
nicksydneywpwrak: yeah it's 20mm in diameter....might need to rethink again14:39
wpwrakof course, if an inexistent problem almost drives you out of the project, then i'd say there is a real problem14:39
DocScrutinizer05ooh, inexistent problem14:40
DocScrutinizer05sure14:40
wpwraki think you should meet to discuss all this. make sure you agree to a roadmap and a way to compensate you for your work.14:40
DocScrutinizer05yeah, thanks. you said that before14:41
DocScrutinizer05when the problem is inexistent, then why should we meet at all?14:41
wpwrakif you drag this out, it will be only more frustrating when the next issue hits14:41
DocScrutinizer05you're just convincing me to make suure there will not be any more problems that might hit14:42
wpwrakoh, and wasn't what started all this the issue that GDC couldn't buy things for you ?14:42
DocScrutinizer05couldn't?14:42
wpwrakwell, wouldn't14:42
wpwrakmaybe they could and should maybe they couldn't and shouldn't maybe they could but shouldn't maybe they couldn't but should. why knows :)14:43
DocScrutinizer05maybe I need another 4 days off before I continue pondering how to cancel the project14:44
wpwrakthe ability to get materials to you is crucial. i mean, if they can't get you case samples, they couldn't send you prototypes either. so this is clearly something that needs solving.14:44
wpwrakso use these four days for a meeting. maybe you'll save yourself the headache of thinking of a way to cancel it14:44
DocScrutinizer05no meeting14:45
DocScrutinizer05I'm more fed up with all this than I been 2h ago14:45
wpwrakyes, that's a normal effect discussing things here has on you14:45
wpwrakbut sometimes an idea or two stick. so there's hope :)14:46
DocScrutinizer05the only idea that sticks is that obviously people have a strange joy from suspecting I'm doing rogue stuff while evidently I don't14:47
DocScrutinizer05o/14:48
wpwrakit's so much more fun to picture you as a criminal mastermind ;-)14:49
nicksydneywhitequark: seems like bitcoins are no more in favour..people are moving their liquidated bitcoins to GOLD http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-16/bitcoin-greatly-rotating-bullion  14:52
nicksydneywpwrak: Argentina Fines Walmart For Violating "Fair Price" http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-16/peak-stupidity-argentina-fines-walmart-violating-fair-price-pact-urges-citizens-deno14:52
wpwraknicksydney: old news. and not only walmart.14:54
wpwraki think that one will be bounced around in justice for a long time.14:55
whitequarknicksydney: meh, whtever, bitcoin is going up and down all the time.17:58
whitequarkon btc-e it's already up back to 624. pre-vulnerability-and-russian-regulations level18:11
whitequarkwow, DocScrutinizer05 is really pissed off above18:15
wpwrakyeah, not good :(18:32
Action: whitequark is still reading backlog18:34
wpwrakhmm. ghostly hardware bugs we chase #6167: a signal that magically doens't get asserted when in the test fixture even though there is a perfectly good contact. turns out the very last bit of the connection (the cable on UBB) was loose and only made contact when under pressure or when bent just the right way. grmbl.18:38
whitequarkyeah, pretty sad...19:05
nicksydneyso DocScrutinizer05 is piss off does this mean that the neo900 project is off ?21:41
wpwraknicksydney: dunno. i certainly hope they can find a way to continue. but there's clearly a communication disconnect. it's rather ironic that the two main people in this disconnect basically live next door to each other, yet seem light years apart.21:50
nicksydneywpwrak: they live next door to each other ? wowser ! 23:59
nicksydneywpwrak: and they are not talking ?? man !23:59
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