#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2014-02-14

wpwrakyes ! the SWD bastard finally lets me flash the KL2x00:12
nicksydneywpwrak: wohoo!00:39
nicksydneywpwrak: this is the same SWD that is supported in Freescale right http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN0062.pdf ?00:44
wpwrakyup. but the rest of silabs is of course different. you could reuse SWD and probably the AHB-AP but not the flash programming code. that would be specific to silabs.01:11
nicksydneycool...different silicon have different address right ?01:31
nicksydneyso theoretically it is possible if i made a 'programmer' using MCU chip to 'program' Cortex-M series chip with SWD right ?01:32
wpwrakof course, yes01:34
wpwraklike in y-box the kl2x will program the cc2543 (via ti's oh so much simpler protocol)01:35
nicksydneycool....awesome!01:38
nicksydneythought the cc2543 firmware is proprietary ?01:38
nicksydneyno ?01:38
nicksydneywhich one of this http://www.digikey.com.au/product-search/en/rf-if-and-rfid/rf-transceivers/3539948?k=cc2543 ?01:39
wpwrakthe 2543's interfaces are open. ti have other chips in the same family, with closed rf interfaces01:40
wpwrakof course, this still means that someone has to write the firmware ... ;-)01:40
nicksydneylet me get this right...01:41
nicksydneythe 2543 code is available to download ?01:41
nicksydneyor it comes prebuilt from factory ?01:42
wpwrakdunno if ti have any code for the 254301:43
wpwrakin any case it wouldn't be BTLE01:43
wpwrakbecause they have another chip, with closed BTLE code01:43
nicksydneyright so what you saying the 2543 will be 'programmed' later on with bluetooth stack ?01:44
wpwrakbut the 2543 should be able to speak BTLE regardless, although with a bit more difficulties (e.g., the whitening algorithm seems to be different. thus one has to transform the data stream at the bit level)01:44
wpwrakyup, at least the low-level part of it01:45
wpwrakhigher-level stuff is probably better kept in the KL2x. the 8051 in the CC2543 is not the nicest environment (well, the core is okay even if it's very very antiquated. but the only free compiler we have for that has its issues)01:46
nicksydneyaren't there any bluetooth stack available that we can reuse for cc2543 ?01:47
wpwraknot to my knowledge01:47
nicksydneydid you use this note http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra410/swra410.pdf to know about the programming cc2543 part ?01:48
wpwrakyes, but the user's guide is actually more accurate01:50
wpwrak(they added some new commands and such)01:50
nicksydneywhat about this https://code.google.com/p/btstack/01:50
wpwrakah, might be worth looking at at some point in time. what we need is BTLE and only BTLE. the rest of BT is a) the super-sized XXXL version of mortally obese bloatware, squared, and b) the CC2543 doesn't quite speak BT (though it may be able to communicate at the low rate, albeit with an accent)01:55
wpwrakah no, not worth looking at01:55
wpwrakwrong license01:55
wpwrak"BTstack is available under a dual license. The code provided in this repository allows for non-commercial use."01:56
nicksydneythis one http://www.ti.com/tool/ble-stack?DCMP=wbu-blestack&HQS=blestack01:57
nicksydneyin order to write your own stack you need to understand the BLTE spec first ?01:59
wpwrakroyalty-free doens't mean open ...01:59
wpwrakyeah, understanding what one is doing ought to be useful. of course, one could also just hit random keys and see what happens :)02:00
nicksydneythe spec is 2302 pages :(02:03
wpwraksomething to look forward to for long winter days ;-)02:04
nicksydneyout of my league :)02:04
wpwrakwhat a blatant lack of heroism :)02:24
nicksydneywpwrak: i aint superhero :)03:39
nicksydneywpwrak: but seriously how can you go through 2302 pages and implement something like that...you go mad !03:39
wpwrakisn't it that this is BT 4.x ? BTLE is just a part of it. and there's always a lot you can skip. some things you'll never need. some you don't need until later.03:45
wpwrakso you can build the monster step by step03:46
nicksydneythe question i have in my mind now is..how to start digging into it..where to start ? what to look for ?03:51
nicksydneyi'm still crawling when it comes to this kind of thing so be nice :)03:52
nicksydneyhehehe03:52
wpwrakoh, if you haven't done such a thing before, then you probably want to start at page 1 :)04:10
nicksydneyhahaah...like reading a fiction eh :)04:17
wpwrak"hard" sci-fi ;-)04:26
wpwrakwhitequark: btw, regarding epicycles, here's a nicely ironic description of the concept: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html04:39
nicksydneyuhhh http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/akarel-android-and-arduino-hardware-platform05:21
nicksydneyakarel uses AllWinner A2005:23
nicksydneynow this is something that everybody must have on their bench http://www.instructables.com/id/mini-circular-bench-saw-from-scrap/  :)06:19
CYB3RI hate soldering small parts.09:24
CYB3Rhttp://i.imgur.com/vUeGWWP.jpg fuck09:26
larscflux flux flux!09:30
CYB3RRMA-223 sux, IMHO09:35
whitequarkwpwrak: oo, nice10:14
nicksydneyCYB3R: what board is that ?10:57
nicksydneysoldering small parts really test your patient and good for soul :)10:57
nicksydneypatience not patient :)10:58
nicksydneyHow is a multilayer PCB made? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67WhV0EDqCA11:34
DocScrutinizer05CYB3R: looks like an example from 50% in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&noredirect=1, second 50% are about how to do it right11:42
DocScrutinizer05:-)11:42
DocScrutinizer05http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b9FC9fAlfQE#t=101911:43
DocScrutinizer05http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b9FC9fAlfQE#t=128011:49
Action: whitequark wants to try making multilayer pcbs sometime11:50
whitequarkeveryone on the net keeps saying how hard it is, but11:50
whitequarkyou need a working electroplating process, a heated press and some epoxy11:50
whitequarkand a cnc11:51
whitequarkokay, I see how that would be too hard for your average hobbyist with a clothes iron11:51
DocScrutinizer05and a damn sharp and exact drill11:51
whitequarkyep11:51
DocScrutinizer05or rather, microscopic headmill11:51
whitequarkendmill?11:52
DocScrutinizer05yeah11:52
whitequarkgood thing I have two dozens of .2mm flying to me :p11:52
DocScrutinizer05drilling a via hole to contact a inner layer with your hole plating is not exactly easy11:52
whitequarkwell, not easy. but doable11:53
DocScrutinizer05maybe11:53
whitequarkdo I understand it right... to make such a blind via, you need to have a pad (filled area of copper) on the inner layer11:53
DocScrutinizer05depends on precision of your drilling process and quality of your PCB material11:53
whitequarkthen you drill from the outer layer right up to this filled area11:53
whitequarkand then you do electroplating on that hole, connecting traces on outer layer with that area on inner layer?11:54
DocScrutinizer05well, yes, for embedded vias that's what you do11:54
whitequarkthere's something else?11:55
DocScrutinizer05usual (simpler) way is to drill all through the whole lamiate stack and thus expose a copper surface of the drilled-through inner trace to the hole's surface11:55
whitequark(copper surface) you expose the _side_ of the copper layer, right? not its _surface_ ?11:56
whitequarkcross-section of it11:56
DocScrutinizer05and that copper surface of the inner layer trace in the drilled hole has to be quite clean and tidy to make for proper hole copper plating making contact to the inner trace11:57
DocScrutinizer05yes11:57
DocScrutinizer05that's how vias usually work11:57
whitequarkright. just was making sure11:58
DocScrutinizer05you can crate an inner stack of just maybe 2 or 4 copper layers, do the vias, then laminate further stacks of FR and copper on top on both sides and create further vias when outer copper layers are involved11:59
DocScrutinizer05create11:59
DocScrutinizer05you shall fill the vias prior to laminating further layers, or your PCB will go popcorn12:00
whitequarkfill the vias?12:01
DocScrutinizer05yes12:01
DocScrutinizer05you usually fill vias12:01
DocScrutinizer05with either copper or varnish12:01
DocScrutinizer05particularly when you need in-pad vias12:02
whitequarkfilling them with copper sounds painful12:02
whitequarkunless really small vias12:02
DocScrutinizer05http://www.google.de/images?q=buried+via12:06
DocScrutinizer05http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_(electronics)12:07
whitequarkI see12:08
whitequarkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bga_und_via_IMGP4531_wp.jpg12:08
whitequarkhow do you even make such cuts? needs something ridiculously hard12:08
DocScrutinizer05diamond crcular saw?12:10
DocScrutinizer05nothing special12:10
DocScrutinizer05http://www.homedepot.com/p/KING-DIAMOND-7-in-Diamond-Tile-Circular-Saw-Blade-C70S7/100577077?N=5yc1vZc2jy12:11
whitequarknice12:12
DocScrutinizer05of course there are finer smaller ones, which are better suited12:12
DocScrutinizer05the trick isn't in the sawbalde but in the very exact and smooth moving of goods to cut vs the sawblade12:13
DocScrutinizer05to create an absolutely plane cute12:13
whitequarkyeah, the result is pretty cute12:14
DocScrutinizer05and of course the sawblade mustn't have any tolerances e.g. in spindle axis Z direction12:14
DocScrutinizer05also for some materials the substance to get cut is simply too soft, so you maybe need to cool it down to very low temperatures to make it more rigid and thus create a smooth cut12:16
whitequark:nod:12:16
whitequarklike with liquid N212:16
DocScrutinizer05yep12:16
whitequarkI've read insane stories about CNC mills using liqid N2 to cool workpiece12:16
whitequarkwon't the endmill shatter very quickly in such conditions?12:17
DocScrutinizer05you probably need special toolbits for such work12:17
whitequarksure. but it is hard to imagine metal regaining its properties at 70K12:18
DocScrutinizer05though the age old urban legend about cooling down steel of e.g. padlocks with N2 and then crack them open with a small hammer is just BS12:18
whitequarkis it?12:18
DocScrutinizer05yes, sure12:18
DocScrutinizer05otherwise, which maerial would you use to *produce* and *contain* liquid N2 in it12:19
whitequarkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgXk_Yzw0nU12:19
DocScrutinizer05freezing makes materials less elastic, but not weaker12:19
whitequarkmaybe you don't smash whatever you store N2 in with a hammer12:20
whitequark(not elastic) but I see your point12:20
DocScrutinizer05a steel rope able to lift 1t isn't breaking at 100kg when you cool it down 12:20
whitequarkbut if you put it under stress, it handles it much worse12:21
whitequarkso it will *hold* 1t but probably not be able to *lift* 1t under same conditions12:21
DocScrutinizer05and I honestly doubt a steel rope would break on bending it, even when cooled down to next 0K12:21
whitequarkyou tempt me to get some N2 and show you12:21
rohDocScrutinizer05: there are milling concepts using ice12:21
rohbecause properly cooled it seems ice could be harder than steel12:22
DocScrutinizer05that's the point12:22
DocScrutinizer05steel won't suffer much elasticity loss from cooling it down, I think12:23
DocScrutinizer05just like it's not getting considerably more elastic by heating it up a 250 or 400 °C12:24
DocScrutinizer05aka K12:24
DocScrutinizer05it softens considerably at the temperature where burning skyscrapers break down12:24
DocScrutinizer05which iirc is ~600..800°C12:25
DocScrutinizer05for usual "normal2 steel12:26
DocScrutinizer05a SF I once read however claimed that water has a number of additional unusual aggregate states under conditions like they are found on Saturn, some of those states making it the better material for building constructions than steel12:27
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: that's true12:28
whitequarkwell, if your "buildings" will always stand in like 100k atm12:29
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's been the idea of that SF, talking about buildings on saturn12:29
whitequarkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#Phases12:30
whitequarkIce XIAn orthorhombic, low-temperature equilibrium form of hexagonal ice. It is ferroelectric. Ice XI is considered the most stable configuration of ice Ih. The natural transformation process is very slow and ice XI has been found in Antarctic ice 100 to 10,000 years old. That study indicated that the temperature below which ice XI forms is 36 °C (240 K).[54]12:31
whitequarkferroelectric!12:31
DocScrutinizer05>>At even higher pressures, ice is predicted to become a metal; this has been variously estimated to occur at 1.55 TPa[44] or 5.62 TPa.[45]<<12:33
wpwrakhow to be a prolific wikipedia editor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kola_Superdeep_Borehole&diff=595408704&oldid=59512966313:20
larscyou have to keep things up to date13:35
whitequarkwpwrak: relevant! http://xkcd.com/13:37
larscwhitequark: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=139238411802852&w=2 was that you?13:49
larsc;)13:49
whitequarkno. he appeals to emotion. I would bring rational arguments and editorialize them to be much more inflammatory.13:50
larschehe13:51
whitequarkboth methods have about same success rate, but the latter is more fun to watch13:51
wpwrakwhitequark: yeah, saw it :) hell + seawater may be the sort of reaction that cuold deserve a spot on "Things I Won't Work With"14:58
CYB3Rto boot from usb on jz4725 I should connect boot0 to 3.3V and boot1 to GND. right?15:03
larscubuntu switches to systemd15:20
larschttp://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/131615:20
viricThe Poettering/Linux virus15:38
ysionneauwhat? I didn't know Ubuntu was willing to follow Debian in its choice16:01
ysionneauI thought Ubuntu would keep Upstart anyway16:01
viricdebian too?16:10
ysionneauwell that's the burning topic for weeks16:11
ysionneaudebian next init system16:12
ysionneauthere has been several votes, including a vote for resignation of the chairman of the technical comittee16:12
ysionneauthings went bad for debian16:12
ysionneaubut then it calmed down a bit some days ago16:12
ysionneauthen the last vote was not successful in answering the question : upstart or systemd?16:13
ysionneauthen the chairman decided with his casting vote : systemd16:13
ysionneau(only for jessie)16:13
ysionneaubut I wasn't aware that Ubuntu was willing to follow debian in this choice, is it breaking news? or was it known befor?16:13
ysionneau+e16:13
larscsurprised me16:14
whitequarkhm... why are there so many couples around18:22
whitequarkoh right, valentine's day!18:22
Action: whitequark briefly considers sending a postcard to his CNC mill18:22
larscmake sure to use protection18:25
larscfor your eyes18:25
whitequark:)18:26
whitequark... I just received a small package from Iceland20:12
whitequarkaddressed to "Whitequark" (sic!)20:12
whitequarkI have no idea who sent this, how they got my address or what's inside20:12
whitequarkand this is the first time I ever see this tracking# by royal airmail20:13
DocScrutinizer05xkcd LOL20:39
larscwhitequark: open it!20:41
CYB3RAnd my board finally works!20:42
larscnice20:42
whitequarklarsc: can't, it's just a... notification20:42
larscoh20:42
whitequarkbascially a piece of paper instructing me to come to post office20:42
whitequarkand it's 1AM20:42
whitequarkI'm most puzzled about address. I'm generally not careful about my home address because why bother--if you want it, come and get me--but I don't think I've managed to left this one anywhere public20:43
whitequarke.g. definitely not in WHOIS info20:43
whitequarkthere is three to five people overseas who know it, and of course vendors who sent anything to me20:46
whitequarkthough amazon won't give them my nickname, only full name, so it must be either ebay (but they would likely write "whitequark_ru", my ebay username, unless they know me more closely) or ... something else20:46
whitequarkand I have never, to my best knowledge, worked with anyone from Iceland20:47
whitequarkI have always dreamed of receiving a package from someone I don't know so there's that20:48
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: re our yesterday resist discussion: I've looked up DS for my resist and its resolution is ~40µm20:51
whitequarkso I'm close to theoretical limit in that too20:51
DocScrutinizer05you'll love this https://github.com/heise/GRBL-JOG20:55
whitequarkhttps://github.com/heise/GRBL-JOG/blob/master/BAS/AUTORUN.bas *choking sounds*20:55
whitequark:p20:55
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: seriously now: it's a jogger for stepper motors? but emc2 already gives me this20:56
whitequark(emc2=linuxcnc)20:57
DocScrutinizer05this is a complete G-code interpreter and steppercontroller-controller20:57
DocScrutinizer05use your PC for better usecases20:57
DocScrutinizer05don't worry about LPT anymore20:57
DocScrutinizer05it's basically what wpwrak (away?? :-o) suggested to build20:59
whitequarkoh, neat. but...20:59
whitequarkhttps://github.com/heise/GRBL-JOG/blob/master/AVR/gcode.c#L58520:59
whitequarkI'm writing quite a bit of parametric gcode. Not to mention DRO on my screen and live toolpath preview are handy.21:00
whitequarkI'll maybe write something on top of that sometime. Thanks for the link though!21:00
DocScrutinizer05that sucks21:01
DocScrutinizer05I just found it, hadn't any look into it, beyond what's been written in latest c't hw-hacks mag21:02
DocScrutinizer05ct.de/ch140112821:02
whitequarksure--I understand. hence me being grateful for the pointing. I've looked into writing a proper gcode interpreter to be run on some device and it is not very easy.21:03
whitequarkprobably not something an atmega can do, even! (requires quite a bunch of RAM)21:03
whitequarkmy best bet today is porting EMC's interpreter to run headless/linuxless21:03
DocScrutinizer05https://github.com/heise/GRBLMILL/tree/master/BILDER21:04
whitequarkooo, it's entirely homebrewn21:05
DocScrutinizer05https://github.com/heise/GRBLMILL/blob/master/BILDER/bild19b.JPG  ;-D21:07
whitequarkhahaha21:07
DocScrutinizer05the writing is "NO GND!"21:07
DocScrutinizer05means: black not connected to case steel21:08
whitequarksince case probably has 220V/2 on it: good thing it is not21:08
DocScrutinizer05huh?21:09
whitequarkhot ---||---case---||--- cold21:09
whitequarkI've seen this more than once21:09
DocScrutinizer05ooh, that's 12V output, not 220V input21:09
DocScrutinizer05you don't want to connect two PSU in series and then place one on top of the other, when in both GND is connected to case21:10
whitequarkyeah21:11
DocScrutinizer05https://github.com/heise/GRBLMILL/blob/master/mechanical_parts_list.pdf21:15
DocScrutinizer05but that is already a year old. Today's mag had a CNC built based on wood21:15
CYB3RAnyone on jzboot right now? What could "ingenic_configure_stage2: Connection timed out" mean? A firmware problem?21:16
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yeah, that cnc looks impressive21:16
whitequarkperhaps when I grow out of this one...21:17
whitequarkand I really should learn German.21:17
DocScrutinizer05dang, and they are writing they use an ATmega64421:19
whitequarkwhat about it?21:19
DocScrutinizer05https://github.com/heise/GRBLMILL/tree/master/GRBL  says 32821:20
whitequarkah... same difference21:21
DocScrutinizer05hmm?21:27
whitequarkwell, why would you care?21:28
whitequarksimilar chips21:28
DocScrutinizer05well, seems the 644 has more $*21:30
DocScrutinizer05more IO21:30
DocScrutinizer05more grunt?21:30
DocScrutinizer05more RAM?21:30
whitequarkmore beef21:30
whitequark:p21:30
DocScrutinizer05they switched to 644 to make jogdial attachment possible21:31
Action: DocScrutinizer05 wonders of that's a tochscreen LCD they use on that thing21:32
DocScrutinizer05they say "BOM costs: 35..50 EUR, without TFT Maximite"21:34
DocScrutinizer05you should already order c't HACKS, they will send you the current mag21:35
whitequarkis it paper or digital?21:36
DocScrutinizer05both21:36
DocScrutinizer05digital comes with some delay21:36
Action: whitequark googles german courses21:36
Action: DocScrutinizer05 learned english that way, reading byte in school, during english lessons ;-)21:37
DocScrutinizer05now I can read english datasheets but not order a soup in a restaurant ;-P21:38
whitequarkI want to be able to speak it, not just read21:38
whitequarkyes exactly! I've almost had my english broken in that way, fortunately school corrected that21:38
DocScrutinizer05then you probably need additional effort on top of reading magazines21:38
whitequarkI'm telling you: I've been meaning to learn german for quite long time now. like the language. so, effort is fine.21:39
DocScrutinizer05but anyway c't hacks would be a fine start21:39
Action: whitequark nods21:39
DocScrutinizer05HAH! http://www.heise.de/hardware-hacks/projekte/Laserplotter-1745578.html21:41
whitequarkooooh DVD diodes. I have a friend who likes those, also Blu-ray ones.21:42
whitequarkquite powerful stuff, dangerous even21:42
whitequarkyou can drive 1-2W into one21:42
whitequarknice project, too21:43
DocScrutinizer05http://shop.heise.de/katalog/ct-hacks-1-201421:51
whitequarkI've already ordered one :p21:51
whitequarkwell, ordering now21:52
DocScrutinizer05you should order a "Abo"21:53
DocScrutinizer051 year, 4 magazines, plus access to digital archive21:53
whitequark"Abokunde" ?21:54
DocScrutinizer05yep21:55
DocScrutinizer05http://shop.heise.de/ct-hardware-hacks-abo21:56
DocScrutinizer05http://shop.heise.de/abo/checkout/showbonus/sku/CHP1430221:57
whitequarkI see, thanks21:58
whitequarkso... if I order that they'll send me the last issue too, right?21:58
DocScrutinizer05they did for me21:59
DocScrutinizer05and for me last issue been like 2 months ago21:59
whitequarknice!21:59
whitequarkokay, ordered!22:02
whitequarkI actually didn't use the translator once while ordering it. Words have close enough roots to be understandable :p22:03
DocScrutinizer05ouch, 12EUR for shipping to Russia22:08
whitequarkI'm used to ridiculous shipping rates :p22:08
whitequarklast parcel I'm remailing from USA cost me $45 in just *aggregation*, not even shipping22:09
whitequarkshipping would be somewhere around $100 I estimate, based on weight22:09
whitequarkwpwrak: welcome back!22:22
wpwrakphew. i wonder what was wrong. it looked as if the modem had just gone offline but then maybe i just didn't see the LEDs (too much daylight)22:23
DocScrutinizer05it seems like you were offline for quite a while22:24
DocScrutinizer05[2014-02-14 21:59:03] <DocScrutinizer05> it's basically what wpwrak (away?? :-o) suggested to build22:25
wpwrakyeah, i though i may have lost one phase so i also turned off the PC, and that one always needs to be off for at least half an hours before it will power on again22:25
wpwrakand then i just had lunch and took a nap instead of sitting there, waiting :)22:26
DocScrutinizer05.oO(???)22:26
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: archive -> http://www.heise.de/artikel-archiv/ch/22:27
whitequarkoh, it's not very old22:27
wpwrak"Not supported: Tool radius compensation" that's just where the fun starts ;-)  (well, you can take that from my cae-tools/cameo)22:36
whitequarkwpwrak: I never figured out how to make tool radius compensation work in EMC2...22:36
whitequarkso, always did that by altering coordinates. thankfully, EMC2 does support []expressions--that interpreter does not!22:36
wpwraki think few programs use anything but straight lines without the mill doing something fancy22:38
wpwrakalso your parameters could just be evaluated if you generated your toolpaths in some script (y occasionally use perl or python for that. though i now usually go via cameo for things like offsetting and such)22:39
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: can you already access hacks-archive articles?22:39
whitequarkwpwrak: right--I mostly used straight lines by now!22:40
whitequarkI really need to figure out how to work with that compensation.22:40
whitequarkfrom what I could tell, EMC2 only supports it for lathes--weird.22:40
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: it instructs me to "Download des Zeitschriftenartikels"22:42
whitequarkbut I'm not sure where is the link for that22:43
DocScrutinizer05https://www.heise.de/artikel-archiv/ch/2013/04/062_Signalen-auf-der-Spur22:43
DocScrutinizer05log in22:43
whitequarkI've logged in already22:43
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/14/plasma-desktopHU3389.png is what you shall see then22:44
whitequarkyes, that's what I see22:45
DocScrutinizer05click on "Datei laden"22:45
whitequarkoh, "Datei laden"22:45
whitequarkGoogle thinks it's "License"22:45
whitequarkwhich makes zero sense22:45
whitequarkoooh, an overview of oscilloscopes. it pays off already! :D22:46
wpwrakin cameo, i just send the path and tell it the tool size. it also features tool selection by size so i can, say, pick a drill for small holes and use the mill for larger ones. cameo then tries to assemble and close all the paths, then orders them by "insideness". then calculates the offsets for all the paths. the one(s) most on the outside have the tool run outside the line, the next inside (opening) have it run on the inside, if ther22:46
wpwrake's an "island", it's again cut on the outside, and so on.22:46
whitequarkwpwrak: cameo... that's some custom software for your mill?22:46
wpwrakit's my gerber/excellon/gnuplot to gnuplot processor22:47
whitequarkah, you wrote it. I see22:47
wpwrakmy mill comes only with a pile of windows manure, of course ...22:47
whitequarkvendor of mine actually advertised it as linuxcnc-compatible22:48
whitequarkand even has documentation on setting up on website22:48
whitequarkanyway... I'll look into cameo. seems like it's not quite the workflow I'd like to have.22:49
whitequarkor maybe it is22:49
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: now that I think of scopes. is it possible to freely buy one in DE ?22:49
whitequarkor just anywhere in Europe actually22:50
DocScrutinizer05why not?22:50
whitequarkwell, some absurd regulations make it impossible to import a scope to Russia22:50
whitequarkand I'm not exactly fond of homegrown ones22:50
whitequarkand whatever imported ones they sell have 3x markup, which means an already expensive piece of equipment becomes absurdly hard to get22:51
whitequarksometimes even 5x22:51
DocScrutinizer05incredible22:51
wpwrakcameo is basically the rock bottom fallback :) if i'll find something nicer at some point i'll be glad to use it. but for now there really isn't much that would tempt me22:51
whitequarkfor 2d I'd really want a simple dxf/svg(?) cam22:53
whitequarkfor example that UV exposing thing DocScrutinizer05 imagined, I'd likely be better using a 2D CAD and my head/paper to draw it22:54
whitequarkand then cutting it out of acrylic/plywood22:54
wpwraki used fped for 2D. the free 2D cads are all non-parametric. unusuable.22:54
whitequarkso it basically just needs to understand arc/straightline contours and translate that to gcode22:54
wpwrakfped does straight lines, arcs, circles :)22:55
whitequarkyou and your NIH software :p22:55
wpwrakwhat it doesn't do are more fancy geometric operations. like intersections, tangents, projections, and such. that's basically by design since i don't want to overload the footprint designer functionality. but sometimes i feel the pull of temptation ...22:56
wpwrakyeah, very NIH, i admit :)22:56
DocScrutinizer05hmm, openoffice can't do parametric?22:57
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: sorry, what22:57
rohwhats cameo?22:57
whitequarkroh: projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/cae-tools/source/tree/master/cameo22:57
rohah. really ungoogleable22:57
wpwrakyeah, it's too common a word :)22:58
rohwhat does it do?22:58
wpwrakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/cae-tools/source/tree/master/cameo/README22:58
rohhm. so nothing nice for me. too bad :/22:59
wpwrakits main use is to take  gerbers and excellon files and turns them into machine toolpaths (in gnuplot, for syntax conversion by a further script/program)22:59
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/15/plasma-desktopBW3389.png23:00
wpwrakit can also help with the generation of 2.5D toolpaths23:00
wpwrake.g., it has an "area clear" algorithm23:00
wpwrak(used opencascade for the nastier bits. there are some battles i gladly walk away from ;-)23:01
DocScrutinizer05oo draw is maybe no real CAD, but for sure it can do "parametric"23:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: parametric means  x = 5mm  then you work with x. if you find you actually need x to be 5.1mm, you change it and everything that depends on it gets recalculated23:02
DocScrutinizer05so?23:02
wpwrakin ME you need to make such adjustments quite a lot. so you don't want to tweak every little thing.23:02
DocScrutinizer05hmm?23:03
wpwrak#s/want to/want to have to/23:03
DocScrutinizer05I don't get it23:03
wpwraklet's say you have 256 BGA balls. so you entered each of them, with some radius value. then you find out you have to make them smaller/larger. how do you do that ?23:04
wpwrakdumb cad (qcad and friends): you go to each of the 256 balls and edit the radius. smart cad (fped): you edit the radius value you defined somewhere.23:04
wpwrakof course, in fped you also have loop constructs and the like23:05
whitequarkI think freecad may work for 2d23:05
whitequarkI mean, you could just stop at the "sketch" step23:05
whitequarkmaybe even extrude it to the thickness of your material if you like23:05
wpwrakthis explains the loops: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/fped/gui.html23:05
wpwrakyes, freecad may be a possibility. it may get hard to follow the logical structure but it has good features23:06
whitequarkI just wish it crashed less often23:06
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I'd probably select all of those bga pads, then select "Size and Position" from context menu, and edit "radius"23:06
wpwrak(well, it didn't quite work back when i tried it but it looked encouraging)23:06
wpwrakah, so it still does that ...23:06
whitequarkit worked well for me, if you can tolerate occasional crashes23:06
whitequarkperhaps it's easiest to just get gdb and fix that.23:07
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: heh, okay. let's make it some spacing then ;-)23:07
whitequarkit asserts on something dumb like 0-vector where a 3-vector is expected.23:07
DocScrutinizer05eh?23:07
DocScrutinizer05like in "relative postion" ?23:08
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: let's say a cut-out for some connectors. let's assume you have lots of them. you work with, say, 20 mm. but then you notice it doesn't fit. so you increase to 20.5 mm. welcome to tweaking all the coordinates :)23:08
wpwrakyes23:08
DocScrutinizer05umm, while your example doesn't work, I think i know what you meant23:09
wpwrakand fped also has automated measurements. so it shows you immediately what dimensions you ended up with. rather convenient when comparing footprints with data sheet drawings.23:10
wpwrakhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IEEE_OUI_assignments ... "10-E2-D5  00-00-00  Milkymist One (development or corrupt flash)" ;-)23:42
wpwrakkewl. managed to coerce linux into connecting a BT keyboard. i feel so proud of myself ;)23:50
wpwrakthis shall be RF bait for ybox ...23:54
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