# #qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2014-02-02

qi-bot whitequark wpwrak [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2d2z.pl: hack: maintain decimal point across flipping (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/453f64e 05:39 Action: whitequark just made his first isolation milled board 10:18 I'm starting to really like this process 10:18 wow. the mill must be quite precise if you got it to work so quickly 10:38 wpwrak: oh? what problems did you expect to arise? 11:04 it's not quite "works" yet, because my engraving bit is a tad too big for tqfp (0.5mm tip), but otherwise I'm satisfied with the result 11:04 (problems) pcb not perfectly level, bad toolpaths, many tries needed to find a good speed 11:06 (pcb level) the pcb I've bought was pretty flat. so I just used a lot of two-sided duct tape and it laid out perfectly 11:07 (toolpaths) eagle's pcb-gcode ULP generates very nice toolpaths 11:08 not that generating toolpaths for pcb milling is rocket science 11:08 (good speed) dunno, I just spun it to the maximum speed and went with the default feedrate. guess I got lucky :) 11:09 I guess this will be more of an issue with the proper 0.2mm endmill. 11:09 probably :) 11:12 http://pcbgcode.org/ <- 11:12 seems like there is a chinese company that is making Bitcoin chip https://109.201.133.195/index.php?topic=364236.0 11:30 chip is called BM1380 11:30 https://bitmaintech.com/product.htm 11:31 there are probably a dozen chonise companies making bitcoin chips 11:34 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison 11:38 really, mining is not interesting anymore 11:39 just start your own $COIN 12:00 hey larsc 12:14 larsc: in the last century you'd start your own religion / sect to get money and girls; these days, you start your own currency to get money; i guess in the next century you'll start your own own language and ... get nothing 12:34 we're already here 12:35 programming language :) 12:35 interesting discussion of hacking and putting electronic in your body http://discuss.biohack.me/discussions 12:43 wpwrak: in the next century you start selling cells :) 12:44 cells? 13:09 whitequark: human cells :) 13:11 my blue sky prediction :) 13:12 why do you need to sell them? 13:14 I mean, it's (relatively) trivial to cultivate them however you want 13:14 even today, the bigger problem is the ethics board, not the technicalities 13:14 anyone knows http://www.openscad.org/ ? 13:29 hm, pcercuei already gone again 13:32 lekernel: The site (openscad.org) or the tool (OpenSCAD)? The latter I know a little bit. 14:14 the tool 14:15 how good is it? 14:16 Well, that's a rather open question! 14:16 You probably want to know if it produces usable results, right? 14:16 And whether I don't hate it just by having to use it, perhaps. 14:17 If you prefer working with code to trying to aim at pixels with the mouse, it's better than other things, certainly. 14:17 I'd say it's not noticeably less usable than other CAD tools for Linux, though, at least for my simple applications. 14:18 I published a design here: http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/AcornElectron 14:19 Maybe it can tell you more than I can manage to describe. 14:19 It's very simple by most CAD people's standards, but given that I hadn't used OpenSCAD before, I think I figured it out. 14:20 The task of making anything from that model has yet to be attempted, though. 14:21 a long time ago i did some experiments with it and had problems with coincident faces. basically had to add \epsilon to all the coordinates to make them overlap. not fun. 14:46 systems based on opencascade don't have that problem 14:51 Yes, that's a known problem and perhaps the only infuriating thing I can think of. 14:54 You get told about bad 2-manifolds, or something, and it doesn't tell you where they are! 14:56 But it's less of a problem than one might think. Maybe they did some fixes. 14:56 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual/STL_Export 14:57 pcercuei: hi 15:20 hey 15:21 I'm in Munich 15:21 good 15:22 want to grab a beer or something? 15:22 sure, why not 15:25 but we're sunday, is that a problem? 15:26 then they'll serve the good sunday brew :) 15:28 (( wpwrak: in the next century you start selling cells :))) nah, virus that modifies cell dna the way you want, in only the cells you want, and is easily stoppable and even revertable (your blue skin prediction) 15:36 ;-P 15:37 brought to you by Monsanto and TEPCO. Companies you can trust. 15:43 side effects may include swelling, nausea and death 15:48 life: side effects include death 15:57 the final cure :) 16:06 nice, even a test rig 16:17 wpwrak: if you see it that way the fear of dying is kind of irrational, cause once you are dead you don't care anymore. One the other hand though if your genes didn't program you to avoid death you probably wouldn't be here in the first place 16:24 in shool the teacher once asked what we think the purpose of life is. What I wanted to say is that purpose of life is life itself, what I said in my attemnt to condense it down to one word was 'reproduction'. 16:42 he didn't like that answer ;) 16:42 http://ehsm.eu/ << just announced the first talks 16:51 larsc: i can kinda see how all the girls in your class mentally moved some 10 m away from you :) 17:14 larsc: and no, the fear of dying makes perfect sense. but it also means that you shouldn't be afraid of it. well, not more afraid than of any other end of a universe. 17:15 Is this similar to what wolfspraul was working on before he was abducted by aliens? 17:32 Yosys is the first step towards a fully open FPGA/ASIC toolchain, and is currently used with vendor place-and-route tools. 17:32 no 17:32 it's one or two layers above what wolfgang did 17:33 this is synthesis, wolfgang was working on configuring the fpga 17:34 in the middle of those two is par 17:35 Do we know is wolspraul is still working in that area? 17:35 the project is on ice for an undefined amount of time 17:35 thanks larsc 17:38 Unrelated: the new RADXA dev board [uses Rock SOC] by Tom Cubie is shipping in small quanties. Early reports are positive. Impressive what one gets for$100. 17:40 Does it have more than 1GB or will we have to wait for that Opteron A-series thing? 17:45 2 GB RAM, quad core. Not bad at all 17:49 http://radxa.com/ 17:50 a small grace note is it ships with a decent looking plastic case. Also, placment of i/o ports is more sane than  a certain high-volume, low-cost ARM board. In other words, i/o is on front and back, NOT all four sides. 17:53 Presumably still arm32 and not arm64, then. 17:59 paul_boddie yes, correct. Not sure that matters a lot, but yeah, in another year or so that can be a valid next step. 18:10 has RTC, that's a nice touch. http://wiki.radxa.com/Rock/FAQ 18:12 wpwrak: any pic of this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-rig.jpg without the casing ? 21:12 wpwrak: what solder / station you use ? man your solder is 'clean' and smooth :) 21:12 not much else to see on the pcb ;-) it's completely passive, just traces and pogo pins 21:16 well, and two spots where i over-etched and had to patch the traces :) the acid didn't want to work today. took forever to remove the large open spaces ... and attacked the traces while slooowly etching away at these areas 21:18 just used a lot of flux. now mainly the one from chipquik. 21:34 (the ones i used before is no longer available so i have to transition soon to something else) 21:35 nicksydney: pictures of just the pcb: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-pcb-angle.jpg and http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-pcb-top.jpg 21:36 the nasty-looking contaminations are non-conductive. i used a bit of solder paste for the pogo pins and that leaves such residues. 21:36 the "vias" are in this case wires running at the bottom. didn't feel like doing the full two-sided process for just two traces 21:37 the black "scorch marks" in the middle are toner residues. would probably need some very nasty solvent to remove these. (i use paint remover for the toner) 21:39 wpwrak: acetone removes toner easily 21:40 wpwrak: thanks ...the black smudge ( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-pcb-top.jpg  ) is that because of the toner ? i have the same problem after applying acetone lots of black smudge 21:40 paint remover sounds like acetone, or maybe a shitty version of acetone. get a non-shitty one ;) 21:40 wpwrak: didn't read your reply :)...yes i have the same residue problem with my toner too 21:41 interesting. so it seems to be dependent on the kind of toner. my toner was easily removed completely. 21:41 your non-copper board colour is different than mine...mine is like orangy-brownish kind of colour 21:42 yours like yellowish kind of colour 21:42 wpwrak: by the way, why don't you mill your PCBs? 21:42 whitequark: it does remove the toner. but it also seems to help it get a little into the FR4. i've enhanced the contrast in the images so it looks a little worse than in real life. 21:42 (toner removal) I usually left most of the copper on the PCB to spare etchant, so maybe that's why I didn't notice the smudge 21:43 whitequark: i have tried 3 different kind of acetone that i bought from pharmacy and none really helped to clean the toner smudge completely 21:43 sounds quite likely 21:43 nicksydney: from pharmacy? is it pure acetone? 21:43 or something like nail polish remover? 21:43 nail polish remover i should say 21:47 (mill) insufficient Z precision: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/cnc/pcb-1st/ 21:50 (pcb color) pcbs can have all kinds of colors. this one is quite yellowish. i also have some unclad pcb that's basically white. i used that for the front cover of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/labsw/web/ 21:52 wpwrak: (mill) wow, your one sucks. 21:53 ;-) 21:53 0.2mm/s?! 21:53 that's not for the mill but for the piece 21:54 s/piece/bit/ 21:54 hrm. I fed it at 250mm/min = 4mm/s 21:54 ah, the bit 21:54 0.3 mm, and for the last one i used 0.5 mm/s 21:55 g-wizard's feed and speed calculation suggests about 200mm/min for the 0.2mm endmill. we'll figure out soon whether that will break it 21:55 3 mm/s ? i see dead endmills ;-) 21:56 I'm going to be using a TiAlN carbide endmill with 0.2mm dia and 0.4mm stickout 21:56 perhaps the very low stickout contributes to the high feedrate calculated 21:56 actually, wait, I think it's not the right term 21:57 http://et-rus.ru/d/81169/d/534106803_6.jpg 21:57 d=0.2 l=0.4 D=3 L=50 21:58 so it really doesn't get a lot of opportunities for breakage 21:58 famous last words :) 21:59 hehe 22:00 I've also been assuming I can take out just the copper, making a cut 0.04mm deep 22:01 well, 0.05mm. it is theoretically within the machine's repeat positioning accuracy. 22:01 the highest possible resolution based on stepper and ballscrew parameters seems to be 0.0025-0.00125mm, but I guess it's not very reliable 22:04 how deep (nominally) did you mill ? 22:06 this time? 0.2mm deep 22:07 lemme take a picture 22:07 ah, that may explain why you succeeded. 0.2 mm gives you a lot of reserve. 22:08 of course, with boards going as thin as 0.4 mm, hrmm ... 22:08 http://i.imgur.com/k7oQbp9.jpg 22:12 yeah, quite deep. soldering may get a little inconvenient with those "deep valleys" 22:13 you also seem to have a fair amount of burr. maybe that's because of the speed. or maybe a 2nd pass would help. 22:14 hm, burr? 22:14 the copper that got folded up onto the trace 22:15 there's none 22:15 if you see anythong on the traces (as opposed to linuxcnc letters or sides of pcb), that's imaging artifacts 22:15 hmm. those white edges then aren't copper that was moved upward ? 22:17 e.g., the 3rd (center) large elliptical pad seems to have a lot of it 22:18 and the trace right of it, too (on its left edge) 22:18 oh, yes, I see. it looks like a bevel. but it's deception. the actual surface is perfectly flat. 22:20 lemme try to take a better picture. 22:20 http://imgur.com/a/DYKnK 22:23 I really need to stop taking these on a webcam. 22:23 ah yes, aggressive compression / contrast "enhancement" i guess 22:24 it actually takes great pictures for a webcam, even HD and very nice colors 22:26 but compared to a proper camera... just no 22:26 yeah. you couldn't tell just from the picture that it's a webcam 22:30 :) 22:37 --- Mon Feb 3 2014 00:00

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