#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2014-01-25

wpwrakthere you have the whole range of gcode - from the trivial set of a handful commands things like kicad use to writing entire programs00:47
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: a very different question: how is the pictures quality coming along ? :)00:48
DocScrutinizer05I think there must be a nazillion of tests available in the intarwebs written by people more savvy about picture qualtity than I am.01:12
DocScrutinizer05bazillion* :-S01:12
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: you never coded in COBOL, eh?01:21
DocScrutinizer05you know that COBOL compiler creates code that stores reurn addr at and of subroutine code as an instruction?01:22
DocScrutinizer05of course COBOL also has calculated GOSUBs01:22
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: COBOL no, but I've did a little bit of PDP-7, it's the same there01:23
whitequarkdon't ask why.01:23
DocScrutinizer05anyway that weird method of storing return addr un the subroutine instead of a stack makes recursive or reentrant programming quite interesting ;-)01:23
whitequarkyeah... fascinating historical tidbit01:24
whitequarkgood thing we have stacks n stuff now01:24
DocScrutinizer05not in g-code ;-)01:25
DocScrutinizer05or do we?01:25
DocScrutinizer05can a subroutine call a subroutine?01:25
DocScrutinizer05can a subroutine call itself recursively?01:26
whitequarkit can, it even stores the local vars in a stack!01:26
whitequarkthat's even basic gcode, not some sophisticated modern extension01:26
whitequarkpretty cool01:26
wpwrak(nazillion of tests) yeah, but i mean specifically the quality of pictures you're making :) i.e., are you satisfied with them ?02:17
nicksydneyBank-Run Fears Continue; HSBC Restricts Large Cash Withdrawals - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-24/bank-run-fears-continue-hsbc-restricts-large-cash-withdrawals 03:12
nicksydneyinteresting....it's your own money but you have to explain why you want to withdraw it...welcome to GFC 2.0 :)03:12
nicksydneyanyone here do bitcoins ? what you think about it ?03:13
wpwrak(having to explain) at first i thought you were writing about argentina ;-)03:14
nicksydneywpwrak: Argentina's 64K Peso Question: What Hits The Bottom Of This Chart First - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-24/argentinas-64k-peso-question-what-hits-bottom-chart-first03:14
nicksydneynow i am :)03:15
wpwraknice graph ;-)03:15
nicksydneyseems like there is a riot going on in Ukraine http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-kiev-police-protesters/03:15
nicksydneylive feed03:16
wpwrakpeople seem to be quietly standing by the fires. it's cold there. they have to keep warm.03:19
nicksydneywpwrak: free heat can't beat that :)03:20
nicksydneySecond Dot Com Bubble .. something that you can't see as it's not in the public stock market...but it's private ... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-24/here-second-dot-com-bubble-just-beyond-public-view03:21
nicksydneywow! didn't know that Spain's unemployment has gone to 26% ~~~03:24
nicksydneywpwrak: Argentina +139bps at 2562.07bps, hit highest since Sept.03:25
nicksydneywpwrak: that's for CDS rate....percentage it takes to insured on default of a financial institutions03:26
nicksydneyinteresting the have a reality show called Gigolo ... "Hardest working man in Vegas" ... didn't know being gigolo was hard work :)03:37
wpwrakhmm, i thought the "hard work" was the main reason that job existed ?03:38
wpwrakgrml. broke a drill bit. now i'm down to the last one. didn't realize i had almost none left :-(03:40
nicksydneywpwrak: thought your mantra is to "stock up" and make sure you have plenty laying around :)03:47
nicksydneywpwrak: time to do more shopping for those drills03:47
wpwrak(mantra) yeah, that's why i didn't expect to be down to the last one03:51
wpwrakwell, i have a few others of a similar size that i could use in an emergency03:52
wpwrakand shopping may be a problem now, with new customs restrictions03:52
nicksydneywpwrak: maybe time to move out Argentina ? and move somewhere else ?03:58
wpwraklet's hope it doesn't come to that ...03:59
DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/869c8379e5 <--- suckers05:13
wpwrakgot a lot of friends ? :)05:36
DocScrutinizer05and this, which refuses to go to pastebin :-S05:42
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~> nc -nlu 5154205:42
DocScrutinizer05DISCOVER * HTTP/1.105:42
DocScrutinizer05---now if anybody could tell me what to answer to that friggin camera, I'd be able to type it into terminal to nc stdin05:44
rohwhats that? upnp?05:56
DocScrutinizer05Fuji XQ105:56
DocScrutinizer05in "PC Auto Save" mode05:56
DocScrutinizer05on trying to detect the PC to save pictures to05:57
rohhm.. so something proprietary or upnp-esque?05:57
rohtried sniffing yet?05:57
DocScrutinizer05as far as sniffing goes without any wincrap to run fujicrap on 05:58
rohwell. not much to get around that.05:58
rohthrow-away vm... as usual.05:59
DocScrutinizer05no such vm available05:59
rohthen i wish you fun decompiling that .net pile05:59
DocScrutinizer05my last 2 PCs explicitly came without any windoze06:00
rohi wasnt suggesting buying one.06:00
DocScrutinizer05could try wine06:00
DocScrutinizer05oooh wait, I *might* have a working VM with installed XP somewhere06:01
DocScrutinizer05or maybe I simply should check TPB06:03
DocScrutinizer05and make sure my LAN is ready to cope with attacks from inside06:05
DocScrutinizer05hmm, indeed06:13
DocScrutinizer05-rw-r--r-- 2 jr users       8684 29. Sep 2008  Windows XP Professional.nvram06:13
DocScrutinizer05-rw-r--r-- 2 jr users 2182938624  3. Jun 2012  Windows XP Professional.vmdk06:13
DocScrutinizer05-rw-r--r-- 2 jr users          0  4. Sep 2008  Windows XP Professional.vmsd06:13
DocScrutinizer05-rwxr-xr-x 2 jr users       1491 29. Sep 2008  Windows XP Professional.vmx06:13
DocScrutinizer05-rw------- 2 jr users        278 29. Sep 2008  Windows XP Professional.vmxf06:13
DocScrutinizer05alas all it creates is a 0.05s bluescreen and the known friggin startup menu "protected mode", "last known good config", "normal" etc06:54
nicksydneyhas anybody been here http://www.apexelectronic.com/09:42
nicksydneywpwrak: http://cyberstalker.dk/finalkey/09:45
nicksydneywpwrak: hmmm....http://hackaday.com/2014/01/20/developed-on-hackaday-the-designs/09:47
wpwrakhmm. and now it also killed an endmill. apparently because of a transmission error that sent the mill on an incorrect course or some screw-up in the controller. that was also the second to last such endmill :-(12:12
DocScrutinizer05that's unfortunate12:59
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't the mill motor be mounted with >dehnungsmessstreifen< which instantly cut power to the stepper motors (or otherwise stop X/Y/Z movement) as soon as force exceeds a certain threshold?13:02
wpwrakit did eventually stop. but it was already too late. the bit isn't very strong, some 0.8 mm diameter.13:03
DocScrutinizer05hmm, the question is how sensible such sensor and how elastic the bit in comparison13:04
wpwraki did some more experiments. it happened again. something is wrong with the toolpath. the weird bit is that it didn't really change ...13:04
DocScrutinizer05and how much inertia in steppers13:05
wpwrakdunno how it senses an overload. of course, if the load is strong enough to snap the bit, then it means that it's still within what the mill itself can handle. so in a way it's correct not to stop ...13:05
wpwrak(the mill doesn't know the strength of the bit)13:06
DocScrutinizer05won't "work2 that way13:06
DocScrutinizer05I think dehnungsmessstreifen is the way to go13:06
wpwraki'm not going to redesign my mill ;-)13:07
DocScrutinizer05well, at least I know how I'm going to design mine now ;-)13:07
wpwraknow ... i wonder what went so horribly wrong with my toolpaths ...13:08
DocScrutinizer05btw the redesign for dehnungsmessstreifen is usually exactly zilch13:08
DocScrutinizer05in your case however it actually could mean to weaken some lever or something so it has a defined location for elastic deformation13:09
wpwrakcompared to, say, building a 40 GW matter-antimatter reactor, i'm sure it's pretty easy  ;-)13:09
DocScrutinizer05do you know at all how dehnungsmessstreifen usually are mounted?13:10
wpwrakno, but i'm reasonably sure there are no easy places to put them in my mill :)13:11
DocScrutinizer05that's the nice part about those critters, you simply glue them to the surface of some steel that deforms a few nanometers13:11
wpwrakin any case, there would be no reference data for setting a threshold13:11
wpwraki would have to literally break dozens of bits to find the limits13:11
DocScrutinizer05or concrete or whatever you like13:12
DocScrutinizer05and no, you simply had to apply a defined force radially to the axis of the tool and calibrate the DMS output13:13
DocScrutinizer05the rest is math and you setting the upper limit you want for a certain tool13:13
wpwrakyes, but it's still need to determine the maximum allowed load13:13
wpwrakand besides, the things that deform most likely are the wires. and i doubt the dehnungsmesstreifen would survive doing around a wheel :)13:14
DocScrutinizer05well, yes, you got a storage scope, to watch the sawtooth output of the DMS while breaking ONE tool13:15
wpwrakalso, don't forget that vibrations and load changes are normal. so you need to factor in all that, too.13:15
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I see you're in arguing mood onnce more13:16
DocScrutinizer05so nevermind, maybe eventually I show you a working design13:16
wpwraklooking forward to see the joergmill13:17
wpwrak... and then read you curse as it breaks bit after bit despite all the precautions ;-)13:17
DocScrutinizer05now you're starting trolling13:17
DocScrutinizer05find someone else please to bash, to compensate your frustration13:18
wpwrakthe unfortunate truth is that bits do break. they're considered consumables for that reason. and a bad toolpath is pretty much guaranteed to kill your bits. also with "industrial" mills.13:18
DocScrutinizer05yeah, since even with industrial mills you can have an inapt programmer that runs the tool into the wall with full X speed13:20
wpwrakhehe ;-)13:20
wpwrakgood that my mill isn't all that fast. so at least i don't have to worry about it punching through walls :)13:21
Action: whitequark switches to #qi-hw13:21
whitequark"13:09 < wpwrak> compared to, say, building a 40 GW matter-antimatter reactor, i'm sure it's pretty easy  ;-)13:21
whitequark... yeah13:21
wpwrakoh. and i see how i broke the drill. the same problem. bit was too low. low enough to try to "drill" sideways. not the best idea with a 0.35 mm bit. i was very lucky that the other one survived, since it had also been slithering over the surface.13:25
wpwrakall of which makes me wonder what the heck is happening with those toolpaths ..13:25
DocScrutinizer05http://video.tu-clausthal.de/film/32.html  yes, indeed much simpler than even a flux capacitor13:31
DocScrutinizer05check 24:06 !13:44
DocScrutinizer05you see DMS have a wide range of possible mounting situations13:46
DocScrutinizer05I doubt a CNC mill has not a single suitable lever or bracket to glue a DMS on it13:47
Action: whitequark is reading http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeeds.htm13:48
whitequarkthat looks hugely complicated, not to mention my mill doesn't really allow to set spindle speed in predictable way...13:48
wpwrakit's all trial and error ...13:50
whitequarknicksydney: (bitcoin) I'm using it moderately often13:59
DocScrutinizer05yet another probably easily installable sensor design consists of two lasers precisely monitoring the position and thus bending of the tool shaft itself14:17
DocScrutinizer05BOM for electronic components: ~20$14:18
DocScrutinizer05ask whitequark to share knowledge he acquired with his maglev14:20
DocScrutinizer05ooh, oops. That been with a hallsensor, not with lasers14:21
whitequarkyeah hall14:21
lekernelDocScrutinizer05, what's that plasma thing?14:24
DocScrutinizer05err, KDE desktop?14:24
lekernelha, I thought that picture represented some sort of plasma apparatus14:25
DocScrutinizer05the only way I managed to do a "photo" out of that YT video14:25
DocScrutinizer05really interesting footage starts at ~32:0014:26
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: it's not youtube14:27
DocScrutinizer05the tool in that "plasma" looks like a wrench or sth like that14:27
whitequarkjwplayer rather, and video is hosted likely by same guy who owns the website14:27
DocScrutinizer05or a part of a diesel motor maybe14:27
DocScrutinizer05it looks like quite massive steel, which I thought was great to demonstrate a few particular aspects of DMS usage14:29
DocScrutinizer05with DMS you theoretically can probe the streching of brooklin bridge steel cables when a car drives over the bridge14:31
DocScrutinizer05I admit that for this usecase the instrumentation amp you need to read out the DMS will cost a multitaude of wpwrak's whole CNC mill14:33
DocScrutinizer05anyway the longer I think about it the more I'm in favor of the laser probes directly controlling the tool bit shaft14:41
wpwrakan environment full of dust and often oil is certainly ideal for precision optical measurements ;-)14:45
DocScrutinizer05aaah right, good point15:10
DocScrutinizer05so a strictly mechanical sensor is the method of choice then. an Alu lever like L with a exactly fitting hole for the bit shaft in the foot of the L, and the vertical part equipped with DMS15:13
DocScrutinizer05or even make that brass, since steel on brass doesn't need any lubrification15:15
DocScrutinizer05as long as your tool bits all have same shaft diameter...15:16
DocScrutinizer05for the stronger ones you can simply swivel the sensor L out of the way15:17
DocScrutinizer05you could even auto-adjust the advance then, so the mill slows down when the material to mill is harder and takes longer to grind away15:21
DocScrutinizer05and the control software could define where to expect force load on the tooling bit so the advance simply slows down, and where no force is expected so any force detected would be considered a major error and causes immediate emergency stop15:23
DocScrutinizer05obviously the maximum advance speed has to be limited to allow for the advance done during maximum steep ramp-down of steppers (plural! sqrt(X^2 + Y^2) ) needs no longer and advance distance than the maximum the tool bit may get bent before damage kicks in15:28
DocScrutinizer05s/and /any /15:28
whitequarkor you could perform software verification15:29
whitequarkwhich is what high-end CAM software is doing15:29
DocScrutinizer05you always do that15:29
whitequarkno, I mean simulate the entire process in 3D15:29
whitequarkwith precise models of the mill and workpiece15:29
DocScrutinizer05the problems arrise when your verification isn't in line with reality15:30
whitequarksure, it's different approaches with different flaws15:30
DocScrutinizer05ooh, you say that software does NOT do any simulation of where's material and where's not?15:31
whitequarknot usually, no15:32
whitequarkunless you pay a lot, and I mean a LOT of $$$, the software and machine just do as they're told15:32
whitequarkto be fair, it is not an easy problem15:32
whitequarkbut I agree15:32
whitequarkkinda sucks, especially when the result of an error is not a segfault but a broken mill :]15:33
DocScrutinizer05and tbh the basic problem seems to be simpler than e.g. map navigation15:34
whitequarkand open-source CNC software seems to be basically in its infancy15:34
whitequarkEMC2, which is one of the best specimens, is basically a stepper driver with gcode interpreter15:34
DocScrutinizer05yeah, sounds about correct then15:34
whitequarkpathetic :/15:34
Action: whitequark opens an editor15:34
whitequarkalso look at this:15:35
whitequarkwhich is a toolpath you could trivially get15:35
DocScrutinizer05I mean, how hard could it be to create a 3D array of voxels and calculate if your tool runs thru empty or filled voxels?15:35
whitequarkwhich is a toolpath you *should* use15:35
whitequarkbecause it's much more optimized for stress and tool wear15:35
whitequarknot to say faster15:36
whitequarkI don't think any OSS tools can generate the #2 one...15:36
wpwrakthe 2nd toolpath also produces a different cut15:39
DocScrutinizer05seems like an approach with voxels and an intersection volume that mustn't exceed a certain threshold per time unit was pretty trivial to code, eh?15:39
wpwrakif both are considered equivalent, then there's something wrong with the model already15:39
DocScrutinizer05well, or sth wrong with the mechanical parameters like tool shape you imply15:40
wpwrakyou'd also have to make sure you don't move along existing walls. else you could get very different results depending whether you just touch the wall or not.15:40
wpwrakprecisely predicting tool loads may be just too hard. then there's also contact with things that have been cut loose. sometimes you end up milling through them. they shouldn't provide a lot of resistance, but they'd certainly create some load.15:42
DocScrutinizer05tool load is a pretty simple function of material grinded away per time unit, no?15:42
DocScrutinizer05first approach15:42
DocScrutinizer05and there's not supposed to be loose material usually15:43
wpwrakyes, as a first approximation15:43
DocScrutinizer05that's not already dust and removed by vacuum15:44
wpwrakthen you have of course material characteristics. also, tools wear out with time, so the load increases. not sure how significant that effect is.15:45
DocScrutinizer05well, fine, then your software moves the model of the tool through the voxel space until it intersects with a number of populated/filled voxels that exceeds resp approaches the threshold constant you defined for allowed tool load, then the sw moves the tool to new position during the timespan your threshold been defined for, and marks the according voxels as empty/removed. Then go to start and do next loop15:47
DocScrutinizer05and you should stay well below any such parameter range like caused by tool wear when defining your threshold15:48
DocScrutinizer05sounds to me like a marginally modified floodfill algo15:49
DocScrutinizer05should I register a sw patent? ;-P15:49
DocScrutinizer05((...make sure you don't move along existing walls)) you simply implement that by switching your model of tool bit to a oversized one, oversized just as much as the guard distance you want to keep to your walls, while same time you set threshold to zero15:54
DocScrutinizer05so tool bit stays out of areas with material15:55
DocScrutinizer05when your tool moved to new starting point of an active vector, you switch back to the working toolshape and threshold, and follow the vector while observing the above sketched algorithm15:57
DocScrutinizer05given your voxels << accuracy of your CNC, I don't see how it could fail15:58
DocScrutinizer05and obviously it creates the boolen var about "load expected" / "no load expected" en passant, for controlling the sensor operation mode between speed-reduction and emergency-full-stop16:00
DocScrutinizer05for the sensor this would not only switch action taken when "overload" detected, but obviously also should reduce the threshold to ~0 for "no load expected" mode16:02
wpwrakphew. so much effort. it's probably a lot cheaper to just buy a hundred spare bits ;-)16:20
wpwrak(they're kinda expensive, USD 10-20 is not uncommon)16:20
wpwrakbtw, there are a lot of other more interesting improvements to mills. like a z sensor for automatic tool position calculation.16:36
wpwrakanother things that would be useful for pcbs would be an automatic tool changer. that's hard, though.16:37
DocScrutinizer05hmm, seems feasible17:26
wpwrakwell, you need another motor, for the mandril. if you have a fixed-size shaft then it's probably easier since you just have a screw to hold the bit in place17:27
DocScrutinizer05actually I'd think it can't be hard, given you use a small permanent magnet in your drill chuck17:28
wpwraki think they use air. you may also need to blow it out since it may get a little stuck17:28
DocScrutinizer05I'd move the chuck over the bit shaft and insert it - should stay in chuck thanks to permanent magnet. Then move chuck plus bit to a fixed rubber clutch. press chuck into clutch and operate the drill motor to close chuck17:30
wpwrakyou'd need a fairly precise spindle motor. but yes, why not.17:31
DocScrutinizer05then to fasten, lift a 2mm from clutch and speed up rotation, then contact clutch with spinning chuck to fasten by momentum17:31
wpwraki smell burnt rubber ;-)17:32
DocScrutinizer05open chuck by reverse operation of whole moves and procedure17:32
wpwrakand how do you unto the permanent magnet ?17:32
DocScrutinizer05with a stronger electromagnet in toolbit magazine17:32
DocScrutinizer05thanks for asking, that saved me a half sentence on next post ;-)17:33
apeletelarsc: tried to enable dma bit in MSC_CMDAT register with:17:33
apeletecmdat |= JZ_MMC_CMDAT_DMA_EN;17:33
apeletewritel(cmdat, host->base + JZ_REG_MMC_CMDAT);17:33
wpwrakheh, i thought you may consider that approach :)17:33
wpwrakwell, you could make it moveable and use the mill to shift it. that way you don't need one for each bit - or a huge monster that covers al the bits17:34
apeletelarsc: still not working: http://paste.debian.net/78322/, code diff is here: http://paste.debian.net/78321/17:34
DocScrutinizer05the latter17:34
DocScrutinizer05pretty simple17:35
apeletelarsc: will come back and look into it later17:35
wpwrakstill, so much magnetism may not be great. especially since you also have magnetic dirt around your mill. (dunno where it comes from. just noticed recently when i used a magnetized tool in the area.)17:35
DocScrutinizer05even easier: use a bit holder magazine that holds the bits from side and is open to one side. Like a magnetig knife holder board in kitchen17:36
DocScrutinizer05attach bit: down and left.  Detach bit: right and up17:37
wpwrakah yes, good idea17:37
wpwrakand you don't need a magnetic magazine. it can just use springs.17:38
DocScrutinizer05like those, just much smaller ;-) http://www.ebay.de/itm/2-Stuck-Prax-Geratehalter-Stielstarken-ca-2-5-cm-Besenhalter-Werkzeughalter/231001217535?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20080%26meid%3D4370683539274510340%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D9031%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D300825661345%2617:40
DocScrutinizer05eeek what an URL17:40
wpwrakbroom holder ;-))17:41
DocScrutinizer05maybe for tiny bits a simple silicone or rubber block with slots already works great17:42
DocScrutinizer05V shaped slots17:42
DocScrutinizer05well, kinda17:42
DocScrutinizer05rather Å shaped17:43
wpwraki was thinking of this: http://www.elektrotresen.de/Sonstige/Houben-Federstahlklammer-100442.html17:44
wpwrakyou get the same kind also as tool holders and such17:45
DocScrutinizer05yeah, probably also "just works"17:45
DocScrutinizer05so, tool changer isn't THAT impossible, eh? :-D17:46
wpwraki'm still a bit dubious about the mandril17:47
wpwrakbut at least the holder looks quite feasible indeed17:48
DocScrutinizer05if you don't like the smell of rubber, you use a ring wrench alike thing to grip into a "nut" between your chuck and motor, and you rotate that thing to support/turn the motor axis while you keep the chuck fixed in some rubber clutch or other stuff. An old powertool may be the right motor for that17:50
DocScrutinizer05what's a mandril? isn't it a sort of monkey?17:50
DocScrutinizer05~dict mandril17:51
DocScrutinizer05http://www.google.de/images?q=mandril :-D17:52
DocScrutinizer05ding also says "Dorn"17:53
DocScrutinizer05which still leaves me no wiser17:54
DocScrutinizer05do you refer to the drill chuck or the tool bit shaft?17:55
wpwrakhmm, if there was an AAAAA battery size, it would just about be perfect for this :) AAAA may be close enough, though. 7.7 mm diameter while those bits have rings of 7.5 mm17:55
DocScrutinizer05wut? 7.5mm shaft diameter?17:56
DocScrutinizer05and you broke those? :-o17:56
wpwrak(mandril) this: http://www.motoresenv.com/2006/Fotos/dremel_mandril.jpg17:56
wpwrakno, the plastic ring around the shaft is 7.5 mm :)17:57
DocScrutinizer05hmm, this is a drill chuck according to ding17:57
DocScrutinizer05plastic ring? I have no idea what those things look like17:58
wpwrakthe shaft is 1/8 in, 3.175 mm. but the tip is something like 32 mil (8.1 mm)17:58
DocScrutinizer05of the chuck?17:58
wpwraklike this: http://www.lpkfusa.com/store/pages/ProductDetail.aspx?cat=11%2f39&cid=39&pid=21817:58
DocScrutinizer05aah, I see17:59
DocScrutinizer05the expensive ones17:59
DocScrutinizer05never seen such plastic ring18:00
DocScrutinizer05is it for magazine?18:00
DocScrutinizer05or for adjusting height?18:00
wpwrakfor both18:01
wpwrakthe plastic ring adds hardly to the price :)18:01
DocScrutinizer05err, it probably indeed does, quite a bit18:01
DocScrutinizer05since it's supposed to be wery exactly placed and shaped, and fixed to the shaft18:02
wpwrakwhen i look a prices in shops that have both, they're very similar18:02
DocScrutinizer05I guess the price is just determined by how much they *can* ask for it, not how much they *need* to18:03
wpwrakhehe :)18:04
DocScrutinizer05ooh, 10/pkg18:05
DocScrutinizer05I already went "WTF"18:05
wpwrake.g. here, the bits are some USD 5-15 each, and a plastic ring adds USD 0.5: http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/default.aspx18:05
wpwrakyeah ;-)18:05
DocScrutinizer05and your doubt is about what exactly?18:07
DocScrutinizer05about the chuck of your mill?18:07
DocScrutinizer05quite possibly that might have to change for a better suited one18:07
wpwrakoh, certainly. my mill has a fixed-size one. it's basically a pipe with a hole on the side for a screw18:08
wpwrakwhy ?18:08
DocScrutinizer05how's tool supposed to be centric?18:09
wpwrakdunno if it's worse than with an "iris" type of mandril18:09
wpwrakthere isn't exactly a lot of play. just enough to let the piece move18:09
DocScrutinizer05the dremel one you referred to has 3 slots and is definitely made to run concentric18:10
wpwraksure. but this one is basically a piston. a piston that you can lock in place with a screw coming from the side.18:10
wpwrakpistons generally are pretty concentric, too :)18:10
DocScrutinizer05only when they fit exceptionally tight18:11
wpwrakbut yes, the screw must push it a little off-center18:11
wpwrakbut that may still be more accurate than one of those self-centering mandrils.18:11
DocScrutinizer05you're talking about chuck on motor axis, or about tool shaft in chuck?18:12
wpwrakthe things that holds the shaft of the bit18:12
DocScrutinizer05get a working one from dremel18:13
DocScrutinizer05should mount on your motor axis or into your existing mandril/chuck18:14
DocScrutinizer05I can't see how to fasten a screw automatically during tool change18:15
wpwraki have that one on my dremel. the mechanical interface is quite different from my mill, though. e.g., the machine side of that mandril is threaded on the inside18:15
DocScrutinizer05weird scary design18:15
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's how chucks usually are mounted18:16
DocScrutinizer05even for turn-right/turn-left powertools18:17
wpwrakyou could grab it with a U-shaped structure on that part below the double ring18:17
wpwraksomething like this: http://www.sanvit.com/de/zubehoer/werkzeug-montage/rms-schluessel-30-32-36-4018:17
wpwrak(it's designed just for such use)18:18
DocScrutinizer05yeah, probably the best way to carefully insert the chuck base into such fixed wrench tool by moving mill sideways while carefully and slooooowly spinning the drill motor18:19
wpwrakbut you still need to have very fine control of the spindle motor. also of torque because you don't want to tighten it more than you can loosen it after18:19
wpwrakor use a stepper motor for the spindle ;-)18:19
DocScrutinizer05then attach the rubber clutch from below by pressing down the whole mill head and then rotate the rubber clutch with a slow powertool motor18:20
wpwrakyou and your rubber clutch ;-)18:20
wpwrakif you have that you don't need it anymore18:20
DocScrutinizer05(fine control) the motor spindle usually should run very easily, when operated by PWM controlled electric power18:21
wpwraklet's hope whitequark reads all this. he'll be very motivated for a while to make his mill work better ;-)18:25
wpwrakeventually he'll find a workflow he can live with and his enthusiasm for improving the tool itself will die down18:25
DocScrutinizer05rubber clutch: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Modellbau-Modellflug-Anlasser-Starter-12V-/191045851743?pt=RC_Modellbau&hash=item2c7b385a5f18:26
DocScrutinizer05the motor is too fast and too weak, the clutch seems pretty much exactly what you'd need18:28
wpwraki kinda doubt they're designed for significant stress18:28
DocScrutinizer05they are designed for RC gasoline motors up to 10ccm18:29
DocScrutinizer05thoes need quite some force to turn them18:30
DocScrutinizer05problem with that exact build of clutch: no space for the tool bit18:30
whitequarkwpwrak: (for a while) hehehe, exactly18:31
DocScrutinizer05you probably want to build your own steel pipe and just insert the rubber ring18:31
whitequarkreading the backlog now18:31
DocScrutinizer05or you find or modify a chuck so it allows another wrench on head nut to turn it18:32
DocScrutinizer05you could glue a nut "around" it, that the chuck fits into18:33
whitequark(automated tool changer) don't like the idea18:34
DocScrutinizer05then you can use a ring wrnch type of tool to turn the chuck nut18:34
whitequarksounds like waaay too much work and too fragile unless you're really good at designing this kind of things18:34
whitequarkand I'm surely not18:34
whitequarkthe peak of my mechanical engineering capability is LEGO, and I'm not even very good at that18:34
whitequarkI'm more interested in alternative heads. extrusor (yay, 3D printing, with way better mechanics than 99% of consumer shit), solder paste, maybe placement18:36
whitequarkthat's the right balance of complexity and benefit for me :)18:36
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw, check out OpenSCAM and HeeksCAD18:36
whitequarkthe former one is promising but not there yet18:37
whitequarkthe latter looks quite usable18:37
wpwrakhas heekscad come back from the dead ?18:39
wpwrakhe had abandoned it a while ago and told people to go to freecad instead18:39
whitequarksome recent commits there18:39
DocScrutinizer05and who gave you all those weird ideas like solderpaste and 3D printer?? dang, must be a geek18:40
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: either you or wpwrak 18:40
wpwrak(DMS video) veeery pedantic. but their soldering it some of the worst i've seen lately ;-)18:40
whitequarksolderpaste was definitely yours18:40
whitequarkanyway, I got the autotransformer18:41
whitequarkheading home now18:41
whitequarkone thing, it's 127V and the control block is rated 110V-120V18:41
whitequark(would shouting "why can't they use switchmode power supplies?!" in the air again be too excessive?)18:42
wpwrakwhy can't those russians not order the 220 V version :)18:44
wpwrakafter all, the voltage was indicating in big and clear hanzi ;-)18:45
whitequarkit really wasn't, that's the issue18:46
whitequarkthey did not write anywhere that 110V and 220V control blocks are different!18:46
wpwraksmall eel only connect. no grill large eel.18:46
whitequarkit was sth like "110V or 220V mains input"18:46
wpwrakeel = electric fish. small eel = low voltage. etc.18:47
wpwrakwell, there you see. 110V *OR* 220V. since you shipped to the US, they assumed you'd want 110V ...18:48
wpwrakmy, those long noses are difficult ...18:48
whitequarkokay, plugged it in19:13
whitequarkthe magic smoke is still inside :p19:13
wpwrakhave you tried turning it on ? :)19:16
whitequarkat least the spindle board is still alive19:16
whitequarkbooting EMC2 now...19:17
whitequarkok, steppers don't step.19:18
whitequarkok, didn't connect the LPT cable. obviously.19:23
whitequarkooo it works19:26
whitequarkof course the chinese docs are wrong in several places though19:27
DocScrutinizer05127V is well in 5% range19:39
DocScrutinizer05and despite no switchmode PSU it still is pretty much capable of handline +-25% I'd guess19:40
DocScrutinizer05when they need e.g 12V= regulated, they will design the transformer secondary voltage before linear regulator to be 16V~ which in the end calculates to 22V=..19:42
DocScrutinizer05we don't have 110 and 220V since years now, it's 115V/230V officially19:43
DocScrutinizer05and for sure worste than +-5%19:44
DocScrutinizer05generally any 115V device should cope with 130V without any problems19:45
whitequarkit's 134V as measured by my multimeter actually19:47
whitequarkI guess it's fine19:47
DocScrutinizer05unless they dimensioned something insanely tight it shall be OK19:51
DocScrutinizer05worst case the internal trafo gets hot or the regulator chips bail out for overvoltage or, more likely, overtemperature19:52
DocScrutinizer05occasional manual control of temperature of whole thing can't hurt, until you got familiar with it19:53
whitequarkthat g-code wasn't really ever designed for actual engraving so I consider that a success20:48
DocScrutinizer05judging size from fingerprints ;-P I think it's pretty nice21:16
CYB3Rwhitequark: what cnc machine are you using?21:38
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: actually the machine was misconfigured21:42
whitequarkshrank everything 10x21:43
whitequarkCYB3R: http://bit.ly/whitequarks-cnc21:47
CYB3Rwhitequark: nice one, but the only interface is lpt21:48
Action: DocScrutinizer05 ponders to stamp "for the record, FYI" into subject of every spam mail and forward it to nsa@whitehouse.gov21:57
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: Stallman kinda does that22:03
whitequarkwell, it depends on whether you consider his email spam, and I'm close to doing that22:03
whitequarkCYB3R: yes, I've kinda looked down on it too, but now I realized this is the 'lesser evil'22:04
whitequarksee, LPT allows you to poke >8 pins with nanosecond precision, and it's the only easy way to do so from a PC22:04
whitequarkUSB is not realtime, hence, in order to make an USB CNC, you need a controller with an RTOS and an interpreter of some intermediate language22:05
wpwrakplus you can always do better L(22:05
whitequarknow, what would that intermediate language would be? basically the only rational choice is... g-code22:05
whitequarkso you arrive to a CNC machine with a proprietary gcode interpreter written by some chinese guys22:05
whitequarkI'd take LPT over that at any time of day22:05
wpwrakor lpt and a usb-to-lpt adapter with whitequark's great open source gcode interpreter :)22:06
whitequarkwpwrak: yep22:07
whitequarkfor this particular machine it would be likely better to make a new control block22:07
whitequarkbecause frankly its features kinda suck22:07
whitequark(or well, maybe I can poke the unpopulated stuff on boards. but dunno whether it'll work)22:07
whitequarkbut as a general solution, yeah, USB->LPT configurable adapter would be neat22:08
whitequarkplus gcode is a general-purpose language and I've implemented two general purpose PLs already so... not hard for me :)22:08
wpwrakthe usb-to-lpr dongle would also be a well-defined project by itself. a controller with all the power electronics could be a 2nd step22:09
whitequarkI completely agree, it's much easier to control complexity by splitting the project into several simpler ones22:11
whitequarkand test it and so on.22:11
whitequarkeven if it means having LPT interface somewhere :p22:11
wpwrakthe lpt itf is also ubiquitous while your power electronics may not be22:19
whitequarkproperly configured this time: http://i.imgur.com/6RtMrz2.jpg22:35
wpwrakneat :)22:38
wpwrakdid you get a good set of bits as well ? endmills, drills ?23:32
whitequarkwpwrak: nope, no bits23:34
whitequarkthat was an oversight in hindsight23:34
wpwrakhow does you mill hold bits ? can you accommodate various shaft sizes or just a fixed one ?23:35
wpwrakwhat's typically useful to have it a large endmill, around 1/8" / 3 mm in diameter for coarse work, cases and similar. by being large it can also go deep.23:36
wpwrakfor pcbs you'll want a smaller endmill, in the 1 mm range. that can go deep enough to cut a pcb but is also small enough for fine structures. the one i use is about 0.8 mm, so it's small enough also for most of the larger holes / slots23:38
wpwrakand then, if you want to drill holes for vias, you need a drill that's matched with a wire you use. i use an 13.5 mil drill with 30 AWG wire23:39
wpwrakthe big endmill will be nearly indestructible so you only need 1-2 of them23:40
wpwrakthe smaller one can be broken but it takes a bit of an effort. you'll want at least 5 of them.23:41
wpwrakthe drills are very fragile but if you handle them with care (and especially avoid sideways cutting movements) they don't die easily. so about 5 of them will do to get started.23:41
wpwrakof course, if you can get a bit more, that's never a bad idea23:42
wpwrakif you want to mill pcbs directly you need finer endmills, 12 mil for coarse boards, less for finer boards. e.g., for a board with 0.5 mm qfn you'll want at most 10 mil23:43
wpwrakthis is also a use where you should expect to break a lot of endmills ...23:44
whitequarkwpwrak: it has a 3mm fixed-size collet23:44
wpwrak3 mm metric ? or 1/8" imperial ?23:44
wpwrak(given their obsession with x/2^y inch for lengths, i wonder why the "mil" is 1/1000 in and not 1/1024 in ...)23:47
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