#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-01-20

wpwraknicksydney: i don't think they did the neo900 layout yet. but you'd have to ask DocScrutinizer05 about that02:51
DocScrutinizer05no layout for Neo900 yet05:40
DocScrutinizer05except the mech ver protos05:41
DocScrutinizer05which I haven't even seen the new ones yet05:41
DocScrutinizer05those took not too long05:41
DocScrutinizer05I think Nikolaus said "one day"05:42
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: how long you reckon the proto version took to lay out the board and route ? was wondering how long a project as complex as neo will take to lay and route05:44
nicksydneywpwrak: remember the olden days lantern http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/29210/product/vintage-style-12-led-lantern-231146 ... this is LED will be interesting to hack it to report power and how much battery left :)05:45
DocScrutinizer05another 2 or 3 days05:45
DocScrutinizer05depends on a few critical details05:46
DocScrutinizer05layout+routing isn't that hard. The details that need to fit mechanically are the real headache05:47
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: 2-3 days by hand or mix auto routing ?05:47
DocScrutinizer05we do autorouting mostly05:48
DocScrutinizer05would be insane to route such stuff manually05:48
DocScrutinizer05creating footprints however takes much time05:48
DocScrutinizer05e.g. for the socket for the camera module05:50
wpwrakmaking footprints is kinda fun with fped ;-)05:52
wpwrakthe hard bit it sometimes to "crack the code" of some drawings, especially complex mechanical parts (e.g., microsd card holders)05:55
wpwrakbut fped makes it really easy to actually "implement" a design. parametric cad is very useful for such things.05:58
nicksydneywpwrak: when i get the chance will try to create a video for fped :)05:59
DocScrutinizer05well, I'd think eagle has parametric cad too05:59
DocScrutinizer05still creating the footprint e.g. for the modem takes half a day easily05:59
DocScrutinizer05after all you need to label each single of the 144 pads06:00
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: doesn't the vendor (TI in neo900 case) provide footprint ?06:00
wpwraklabel ... in the footprint ?06:00
DocScrutinizer05huh? the modem is made by Siemens06:00
wpwrakdon't they have systematic numbers ?06:00
DocScrutinizer05like... the systematic numbers on a CPU?06:02
wpwraki mean the pads. or do you mean schematics symbols instead of footprints ?06:02
DocScrutinizer05a pin number is different thing than the pin label06:03
wpwrakyes. but the layout shouldn't have labels06:03
wpwraki mean the footprint06:03
wpwrake.g., a 32-qfn footprint shouldn't care whether pin 5 is "USB_DP", "P0_2", "A17", "nRESET", or whatever the 2^\infty chips of that size may have on that pin06:04
DocScrutinizer05what worth is a footprint that's unconnected to the schemitics?06:04
wpwrakthe schematics symbol should make that connection06:05
DocScrutinizer05CAD using component libraries06:05
DocScrutinizer05EDA rather06:06
wpwrakso you clone your 32-QFN for all the chips that have a 32-QFN package ?06:06
DocScrutinizer05meh, need more coffee06:06
wpwrakand if you want to edit something, you edit all the clones ? ;-)06:06
Action: DocScrutinizer05 headdesks06:06
DocScrutinizer05look at the modem footprint06:06
wpwraklike this ? page 3 of http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-modules.pdf06:08
wpwrakyou have to zoom in to be able to read the ball numbers06:08
wpwrakthe corresponding symbol is on page 14 of http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-bom-all.pdf06:09
wpwrakor, maybe better, page 14 of http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-expanded-all.pdf06:10
wpwraksymbol defines label, pin number/name, signal type06:10
wpwrakfootprint defines the geometry of what goes on the PCB and the corresponding names. nice and clean.06:11
DocScrutinizer05no, this http://wstaw.org/m/2014/01/20/plasma-desktopcD3389.png and this http://wstaw.org/m/2014/01/20/plasma-desktopQJ3389.png06:13
wpwraklooks pretty much like the same sort of structure06:14
DocScrutinizer05and in eagle, a component consists of footprint plus schematics symbol since both is tightly linked06:14
wpwrakfootprint would have P4, P5, ...06:15
DocScrutinizer05know what? I have better things to do than to discuss linguistics with you06:15
wpwraksymbol USB_DP -> P5, USB_DN -> P5, ...06:15
wpwrakof course, in this case you probably don't have much reuse of the footprint. but for any more common packages there's no point in having signal names at the level of the footprint06:16
DocScrutinizer05juts s/footprint/component library entry/g for my last 50 posts06:18
wpwrakaah ;-) okay. then we're in agreement :)06:21
DocScrutinizer05and for Eagle, you even want to define properties for each signal, like input|output|voltage|whatnot06:21
DocScrutinizer05for DRC06:21
DocScrutinizer05err ERC06:22
wpwrakah, good. kicad is a bit primitive there.06:23
wpwrakit has input/output/etc. but not voltages or such06:23
DocScrutinizer05anyway you do all this for each pad of the footprint(sic!) while you draw it, basically. The schem symbol is drawing a rectangle then, and a bit of lable pushing to the right and left side06:26
DocScrutinizer05done in 10 minutes06:26
DocScrutinizer05label pushing06:26
DocScrutinizer05mech eval  boards were made 50% for proving the modem footprint06:30
DocScrutinizer05and yes, again footprint since it's the footprint that assigns a signal to a pad06:31
DocScrutinizer05and Nik missed that one of the status signal outputs is OpenCollector and connected it to basis of an LED driver transistor06:32
DocScrutinizer05which reminds me to short that transistor C-B06:32
DocScrutinizer05fun, my first rework on Neo90006:33
wpwrak(footprint) hmm, so is there then another layer for the geometry ? or do you have countless clones of, say, 0603 ?06:33
DocScrutinizer05yes, I think they are countless clones06:34
DocScrutinizer05like in every CAD06:34
DocScrutinizer05I never really bothered. When I need to do a mass edit of a e.g. standard 0603 footprint, I guess I find a sort of global find&replace command06:35
wpwrakheh. yes, that's what you need then. with a filter of what exactly you want changed. elegant ;-)06:36
DocScrutinizer05but maybe there's even an abstraction layer in between06:36
wpwrakthat would help06:36
DocScrutinizer05anyway I never want to change all 0603 06:37
DocScrutinizer05I maybe want to change the 0603 footprint geometry for one component series06:37
wpwrakthink of things like pcb making improving and you want a thinner line on the silk screen. that would be a "safe" change to apply everywhere06:38
DocScrutinizer05I mean, how sane would it be to have same footprint geometry template/macro for 0603R and 0603 LED?06:38
wpwrakgenerally works for me :)06:38
wpwrakwell, we have 0603 and 0603P - the latter is polarized06:39
DocScrutinizer05yeah, since you don't know about stuff like "no traces area" under the component, in kicad06:39
wpwrakof course, if you want a little LED symbol in silk screen or such, then you need a specific footprint06:39
wpwrakyeah, keepout areas in footprints could be useful indeed06:40
wpwrakcould be that this already exists in the depths of the new layout format. there's a glacially slow transition of file formats in kicad from the old "simple" formats to more extensible ones, along with a bunch of new features06:41
wpwrakalas, the transition is so sluggish that it would be a pain to try to keep up. so i'm just waiting until some major blocks are finished before digging into making use of them06:42
wpwrakfped has a somewhat more abstract view anyway. you basically define geometries and then it combines things into the "objects" kicad uses. e.g., pad + hole = plated through-hole (unless you specifically ask for something else)06:43
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I think similar multilevel macros are available in eagle too06:49
DocScrutinizer05maybe worth checking out the free trial version of eagle, just to have a peep into neighbor's garden?06:52
wpwraklooks pretty similar to what we have in kicad. have you ever used it ?07:56
viricEagle is the only pcb software I used in linux07:58
wpwraknon-Free is bad for your karma :)07:59
viricI only used tango in dos, and eagle in linux, in fact. All, more than 15 years ago. The demo version was bound to a board size, which was enough for my needs.07:59
viricwpwrak: I met a grandgrandaughter of Yrigoyen, last november.08:01
viricit feels like something important. :)08:02
wpwraki live on a street named after him :) (i could almost say "avenue", but it changes type a few meters from my place)08:06
viricshe was lied by her family, that she was such an important person08:07
viricshe discovered that only after the dead of her parents, by finding impossible information in her family archives.08:08
viric(like her grandmother giving birth to his father at 65)08:09
wpwrakheh ;-)08:10
viricshe contracted a professional genealogy research, and they found the real path08:11
wpwrakbut what did they lie about ? so they didn't tell her she was a descentant of yrigoyen ? why hide that ?08:11
viricit seems they were very ashamed of having bounds with Yrigoyen08:11
viricby her description, she felt like the 'black sheep' in a fascistoid family 08:12
wpwrakodd. he seems to have been a pretty decent president.08:13
viricI guess there was diversity of opinions about that :)08:15
wpwrakand not exactly a fascist either ...08:15
viricsure, hence the hidding08:15
viricThe fascistoid were her parents, not Yrigoyen08:15
wpwrakah, i see08:15
wpwrakyes, the fascist may rightfully have considered him a sub-par president :)08:16
viricon Saturday I released a new 'filegive' btw. Better and better.08:17
wpwrakit's time to make a "fileget" that uses the NSA infrastructure to also acquire files you're not supposed to be able to get :)08:23
viricIn fact I dislike all about 'security'. I find it very very boring.08:26
DocScrutinizer05WTF Yrigoyen11:38
wpwraka former president of argentina, Hipolito Yrigoyen. i live on a street that's named after him.11:39
DocScrutinizer05and, any special reason to mention that today?11:46
DocScrutinizer05I mean, I probably don't live in a street named after Saint Kanal, but if it was I'd wonder why to talk about it11:47
DocScrutinizer05did you publish your adress recently?11:48
Action: DocScrutinizer05 suspects that viric noticed the name of street where wpwrak lives, but then why would wpwrak state again that he does.11:49
wpwrakviric met a descendent of yrigoyen and was impressed by that. not sure if he knew that i live on that street.11:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm, the waitress in "my" cafe a few years back been the daughter of our ministry of wealth11:51
DocScrutinizer05errr health11:51
DocScrutinizer05it actually eventually felt a bit strange, when the mother drove on backseat of those bulletproof sedans and the daughter worked in a (hippie) cafe11:53
wpwraknice ;-)11:54
wpwrakand would be even nicer if she had been the daughter of a "minister of wealth" :)11:54
viricI had no idea about the street11:54
DocScrutinizer05seems in my case mother and daughter also were not too fond about each other ;-). I'm pretty sure about the daughter11:56
DocScrutinizer05well, at least she didn't like to talk about her mother11:58
DocScrutinizer05probably different political party11:58
DocScrutinizer05I don't think her mother lied to her though, about her own job and political prefrences11:59
DocScrutinizer05oops sorry - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renate_Schmidt12:09
DocScrutinizer05so no minister of wealth/health, only "Vizepräsidentin des Deutschen Bundestages" and vice chief of SPD fraction of Deutscher Bundestag12:13
DocScrutinizer05HAH! >>1961 - 1980: Programmiererin, Systemanalytikerin<<12:16
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05, wpwrak: does AgO actually conduct as well as pure Ag?12:50
whitequarkI heard that quite a lot of times, that Ag is used for contact coating for this reason12:50
whitequarkas the oxide won't heat up more than the pure metal, therefore not causing contact welding12:50
whitequarkbut I can't actually find any sources to back that claim.12:50
DocScrutinizer05never heard that12:59
DocScrutinizer05plausible though13:00
DocScrutinizer05the anode pads on LCD are what? SnO2 ?13:01
whitequarkdunno, also silver-metal oxides conduct quite well apparently13:02
whitequarkfound this: http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/143/9/2741.abstract13:02
whitequarkAgO films have Á of ~12 ©cm13:02
whitequarkfor copper: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/40804795_Electrical_resistivity_of_copper_oxide_thin_films_prepared_by_reactive_magnetron_sputtering/file/9fcfd5107e1bc6eeac.pdf13:03
whitequarkCuO films: Á of 10t-10v ©cm13:03
nicksydneySome crazy person just gave robots their own Internet - http://www.dvice.com/2014-1-15/some-crazy-person-just-gave-robots-their-own-internet21:26
whitequarksuch sensationalistic bullshit21:29
larsctotally crazy21:44
nicksydneynew EUR 19.98 -- Arietta G25  -- http://www.acmesystems.it/arietta .. interesting21:47
whitequarkit's not exactly impressive21:48
nicksydneywhitequark: which part you think is not impressive ? is it the speed of MCU ?21:49
whitequarkboards based on Allwinner have much nicer specs with comparable price21:50
larscthe bang for your buck21:50
larsc(is not that impressive)21:51
whitequarkA10 boards are usually 2x or so more expensive, but when you add the WiFi module, the difference shrinks considerably21:54
wpwrakallwinner may be harder to source and to get docs. do they publish them now ?21:54
whitequarkand A10 boards almost always have ethernet, wifi, hdmi, and all other goodies21:55
whitequarkwpwrak: (harder to source) based on the amount of projects using their chips, appears that it's easy21:55
whitequark(docs) rz2k would know firsthand21:55
whitequarkhe works with Allwinner boards and is quite pleased with them afaik.21:56
wpwrakthe atmel is available from digi-key. that's a big advantage. wish they had more of the "deep asia" products.21:58
nicksydneywhitequark: (AllWinner) no they don't publish the docs .. even for their current Octa Core they don't .... but Tom Cubie might have access to it as he is planning a board for it22:00
whitequarkor in US: https://www.olimex.com/Products/Components/IC/22:01
wpwrakwhitequark: if you take the aliexpress route you have to verify the vendor and maybe their supply chain. or else you may some day get a box of fake parts. no fun.22:01
whitequarkyou can even get them in LQFP!22:01
wpwrak"2 Pravda St." -- US ? ;-)22:02
wpwrakthey're in bulgaria22:02
wpwrakyou should be able to recognize your former comrades ;-)22:02
whitequarkoh, I always thought Olimex was an US company. either way22:02
whitequarkthey're not the ones to screw you over22:02
wpwrakno, they're definitely good guys22:02
wpwrakdidn't know they're now selling chips. that's nice.22:03
wpwrakalas, no data sheets there either22:05
nicksydneywhitequark: rockchip is coming to the surface fast and furious too .. competing head to head with AllWinner22:05
whitequarkwpwrak: there's quite some docs: http://linux-sunxi.org/Category:A10_Register_guide22:05
whitequarkalso: http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/A10/22:06
whitequarkhttp://dl.linux-sunxi.org/A13/ has what appears to be a proper reference manual22:07
whitequarkoh, A10 too.22:07
nicksydneyif we use Intel chips they will pay us to do it now -- http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57617440-92/behind-in-tablets-intel-pays-firms-to-use-its-chips/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title22:07
wpwrakuser manual ... decrypted ;-)22:08
whitequarknicksydney: that's a pretty strong reason to not use Intel chips22:08
whitequarkI mean, if they were any good, why'd Intel pay? ;)22:08
whitequarkwpwrak: I guess Allwinner is fine with that :D22:08
wpwrakgood stuff, thanks !22:09
whitequarkI'm pretty sure it omits some interesting parts... GPU ;)22:11
wpwrakhmm, some things are seriously undocumented, though. e.g., the SD3.0 controller22:12
whitequarkit's just like ingenic isn't it?22:12
wpwrakingenic is fairly complete. sd/mmc is definitely there, and in great detail.22:13
whitequarkI think audio was lacking. something surely was22:13
whitequarkalso this: https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tree/master/HARDWARE22:14
wpwrakgood, so they have found SD somewhere22:15
whitequarklikely in allwinner source drops22:16
wpwrakyeah, that sounds like a likely source22:16
nicksydneywhitequark: like that....if you can't get a hold of the person in IRC .. tweet that person not email them :)22:17
whitequarkwell I knew he was on twitter22:17
nicksydneywpwrak: are you on twitter ?22:24
nicksydneywpwrak: thinking of making with AllWinner A10 something like this  http://www.warpboard.org/ :)22:26
wpwrakwas once, but only briefly22:26
nicksydneywpwrak: aww....what changed ?22:28
nicksydneywpwrak: do you follow arm-netbook mailing list /22:28
nicksydneywhitequark: do you play with any AllWinner or Rockchip board ?22:30
whitequarkI prefer smaller chips to play with22:30
wpwrak(twitter) didn't really find it useful22:32
wpwrak(arm-netbook) nope22:33
whitequarktwitter is... an acquired taste :)22:33
wpwrakand most of the lists i'm subscribed to i hardly even look at ;-)22:33
nicksydneywhitequark: when smaller in what sense ? 22:37
nicksydneywpwrak: i'm sure qi-hardware is not one of those "list i don't look at" :)22:37
whitequarknicksydney: less complex. cortexen-m instead of cortexen-a.22:38
nicksydneywhitequark: cool...what board you got ?22:41
whitequarknicksydney: there's stm32's discovery boards and maple leaf, and a bunch of custom ones for various tasks22:43
whitequarkalso, with cortexen-m being much easier to design for and assemble, there's less focus on a board as a self-contained component22:44
nicksydneyi have one of this http://www.cutedigi.com/development-tools/arm-cortex-development-board/arm-cortex-m3-mini-stm32-dev-board-2-4-tft-lcd-touchscreen.html22:45
nicksydneyyeah ever since i found anelok i have a great fond for M0 now :).. before I was into M3 22:45
nicksydneythe package size impress me22:45
Action: whitequark cringes at comic sans ms22:46
whitequarkpackage size? m3 comes into tiny packages as well22:46
nicksydneyi mean M0 is very small compared to M322:48
nicksydneyM3 is bit bigger no ?22:48
nicksydneyunless if you look at Energy Micro chip..they are damn small even for M322:48
nicksydneySiLabs they are called now sorry :)22:48
whitequarkit's a smaller core in the sense it uses slightly less silicon, but nothing in m3 really requires much bigger packages22:49
whitequarkpackage size today is determined by the pin count, not core size22:49
nicksydneyahh ok 22:53
nicksydneythe more pin count the bigger the package size are22:53
nicksydneyi like BGA it's very tiny BUT it's a pain to solder 22:53
whitequarkand a pain to make boards for. can you even have BGA with two-layer boards?22:54
whitequarkqfn-48 can be pretty tiny too22:54
nicksydneyyeah qfn is the best bet next to QFP22:54
nicksydneystill need to learn how to solder QFN22:54
nicksydneyhave you done QFN soldering before ?22:55
whitequarkboth with soldering iron and hot air22:56
whitequarkcan be a little tricky, but not much more tricky than say lqfp22:56
whitequarkless chance for solder bridges, but harder to place properly22:56
nicksydneywill be interesting to go through the process of doing it myself when i get the KL chip 22:58
nicksydneywpwrak: for flashing to anelok you use OpenOCD right ? forgot if we have a doc for it ?23:08
mknightMKRAND - A Quantum Cellular Randomness Well : http://www.tag.md/public/mkrand-TA1.tar.gz23:11
wpwraknicksydney: no, i use the file-based flasher of the frdm-kl25z board23:15
nicksydneylost there..so how is the pin configuration between anelok and the kl25z board ?23:15
wpwrakthe board contains a programmer circuit. that circuit can either program the chip on the board or one you connect on the outside.23:16
wpwraki use that programmer circuit. the SWD is some jtag variant and therefore a bit complex, and support for it in openocd and such doesn't seem to be very smooth just yet.23:17
wpwrakso i took the approach that would get me results in the fastest way. eventually i'll want to get rid of the board. but there's no rush.23:17
wpwrakalso, i can make a dfu boot loader for the kl25, which would eliminate the board for anything but the boot loader updates (which should be very rare, typically only once in the life of a board)23:18
nicksydneycan you tell me what to connect where in terms of interface the kl25 with anelok ?23:23
nicksydneywant to try it once i'm able to get the KL QFN chip23:23
wpwrakSWD_DIO, SWD_CLK, nRESET, VDD, GND. that's all you need.23:24
wpwrakyou can see the connection here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg23:25
wpwrakand here's the continuation: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg23:26
nicksydneyok cool...that will do for now...once it's up and running will need your help again :)23:29
wpwrakhehe :)23:31
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