#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2014-01-09

nicksydneywpwrak_: can you point me to one sample code inside the kernel for me to take a look and learn from there if you can ...the one that is in the userspace..00:22
wpwrak_sample code of a closed driver ? that would be tricky ;-) i'm not even sure we have such "stubs" in the regular kernel. we shouldn't.00:34
nicksydneywpwrak_: no ..not closed driver..the part that you mention the kernel code of the closed driver :)00:38
wpwrak_maybe look at the sites of nvidia or amd-ati. dunno where this sort of stuff lives. i try to give it a very very wide berth ;-)00:40
kristianpaulNo 'ISE' nor 'WebPack' feature version 2013.03 was available01:43
kristianpaulfor part 'xc6slx45'.01:43
kristianpaullet see if just was re-request it because newver ise version01:50
nicksydneywpwrak_: theoretically it should be possible to create a pad that can be used to solder this pins http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/541325931/1_0mm_90_degree_pin_header.jpg right 03:08
wpwrak_it's just a header. we have tons of footprints for that :)03:13
nicksydneywpwrak_: i don't want to drill..so was thinking i solder it on top of the board03:15
nicksydneyso i solder the 90degree part to the board and leave the other part hanging out to connect something to it03:16
wpwrak_yes, you can make pads of that sort. see Connector > PCB > Pads > Array > 120x60mil03:20
wpwrak_... in http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf03:21
nicksydney"http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf" <--- this is my bible :)03:22
nicksydneyyes i've ben using that pad array also for my power (+) and (-) )03:24
wpwrak_i wish someone would resurrect the command-line options of kicad (and in this case especially eeschema). then we could have an up to date "bible" for components as well ...03:24
nicksydney (+) and (-) looks like navel to me...man too long in front of computer i suppose :)03:25
nicksydneylove TI datasheet they have sample setup for their product..make it easy for mere mortal like myself :)03:29
Action: wpwrak_ wonders where my little parcel from digi-key may be. one entry from memphis just around the time a plane left for south america. then a few hours later another one. did it fall of the plane ? is it almost here ? what does schroedinger say ?03:45
nicksydneywpwrak_: from my intuition calculation it will reach tomorrow morning :)03:51
rjeffriesan ARM based SOC from RockChip Electronics Ltd opens up to some extent04:17
rjeffriesMIWA PlayKey SDK has been authorized for Open Source distribution and development by Rockchip Electronics Ltd.04:17
rjeffriesMIWA is an Android Open Source Community based Hardware Design Project which is focusing on the emerging market of HDMI Android devices. 04:18
rjeffriesso an open SDK is a start, right?04:20
wpwrak_(sdk) depends on what is in it. i've seen closed-source libraries with an "open" API called "open" ...04:29
wpwrak_but rockchip is interesting. a source of inexpensive yet potent arms.04:29
nicksydneyAllwinner and Rockchip are 2 SoC that are coming out strong from China...Tom Cubie have been releasing few dev boards from both vendors  and the linux community around these 2 are not huge but they are making rapid progress04:32
nicksydneyhopefully they will open up now...Allwinner has been receptive for the last few months now let's see how Rockchip will follow their step04:33
rjeffriesRockchip has shipped 50 million chips or so I am told04:33
nicksydneyrjeffries: more than that i believe04:33
nicksydneyi don't like they keep on throwing the word 'sdk' it's soo wrong :)...but hey that's my personal opinion :)04:34
rjeffriesleveraging china is the way forward I am convinced04:34
nicksydneythe dev boards schematics and the whole lot from Tom is open sourced04:34
rjeffrieshow is his project doing? he is indeed good people04:35
rjeffriesbut isn't he doing a semi-niche rather high-end system...04:35
nicksydneyrockchip dev board (from Tom) --> http://radxa.com/ and AllWinner based --> http://cubieboard.org/ (also from Tom)04:36
rjeffriesor maybe I am confused with another guy04:36
nicksydneyrjeffries: this is the guy i was referring to https://plus.google.com/117677652709931793641/posts04:36
nicksydneyhe was ex-AllWinner that start his own04:36
rjeffriesI am thinking of another guy who is creting a laptop that incorporates FPGAs04:38
nicksydneythat's Bunnie Huang04:38
nicksydneyfrom Bunnie Studiop04:38
nicksydneyNovena is his creation --> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=359704:39
nicksydneyfull open source no binary firmware04:39
nicksydneywell i'm sure wpwrak_ can comment on that :)04:39
rjeffries<grin>But... is it fully Richard Stallman approved? 04:41
nicksydneyhahah...no idea04:42
wpwrak_so far i'm fine with "off the shelf" laptops. no need for crazy one-of-a-kind type critters. besides, i like the things i have to lug around to be tiny. i kinda doubt that's one of his design goals :)05:00
wpwrak_nicksydney: hmm, seems that your intuition was wrong. fedex just scanned the parcel again ... in memphis. things are really slow this time. one day delay at digi-key, one day delay in memphis.05:02
nicksydneywpwrak_: yes his design goals was not tiny but open pretty much everything05:03
wpwrak_so it'll hit BUE friday morning. i guess by the evening i'll know whether fedex are up to date with their "gifts" to deserving customs officials ...05:03
nicksydneywpwrak_: well i can't fight mother nature :)05:03
nicksydneywpwrak_: it's the bad weather in US...read that it's like worst in 20yrs05:04
wpwrak_bah, that's nothing. we had the hottest week in 100+ years. and did any shipment of advanced electronic components from argentina get delayed because of this ? no, not one !05:05
wpwrak_(of course, a medieval society like the one the unfortunately still current government tries to establish doesn't export electronics, but ...)05:06
nicksydneyhow hot was it ? over here the hottest it went was close to 50C05:08
wpwrak_38-39 C something like 7-8 days in a row05:08
wpwrak_(real temperature, not "felt" temperature)05:09
nicksydneythat's hot !05:09
wpwrak_it can get hotter here as well, but that's usually for 1-2 days05:09
nicksydneyon avg over here summer time is between 35-39C consider as "normal"05:10
wpwrak_seems pretty high. i've been to sydney a couple of times and it didn't feel that hot. well, maybe humidity was low.05:11
nicksydneythings have changed last few years and it's been super hot nowadays05:11
nicksydneymy area is not far from mountain which makes it even worse05:12
wpwrak_ah, can't get enough of that global warning, can't you guys ? :)05:12
nicksydneynah...we are into global warmings.. :)05:15
nicksydneybtw did you ordered more parts for anelok though digi ?05:17
Action: nicksydney everyday looked at anelok can't wait to solder it :)05:17
wpwrak_yeah, more parts. for the changes i described on the list05:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/switch.lib: add SW-SPDT-S4 (on-on switch with four shell pads) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/66f316b06:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/cc2543.lib: increase pin spacing by 1.5x (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/247b1de06:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/cc2543.lib: fix pin types (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fe9e22a06:23
nicksydneywhen they say hell freezes over and it did  https://twitter.com/abbeylinegold/status/420953415238557696/photo/110:35
wpwrak_neat :)10:41
larscthat's not hell though ;)10:46
whitequarkgrm, I forgot a word10:55
whitequarkhow's those flexible flat wide plastic cables called? you see them in phones for example10:56
whitequark... okay10:57
larscI think10:57
wpwrak_FPC :)10:57
whitequarkone of them connects the keyboard to the motherboard in my notebook. the keyboard is dumb (no controller)10:57
larscgoogle image search agrees10:57
whitequarkand occasionally it starts to lose keypresses for a few apparently random keys10:58
wpwrak_you get to pick your expansion: Flexible Printed Circuit, Flexible Plastic Cable, ...10:58
whitequarkand you can 'fix' it by pressing on the keyboard. I think this means that one of the scan lines is interrupted somewhere10:58
wpwrak_Flat ...10:59
wpwrak_ah yes, hairline cracks. don't we love them.10:59
larscthose cables tend to easily break10:59
larscon the inside10:59
whitequarki'm not sure actually whether it's a hairline crack or something else. the end of the cable looks *weird*11:00
whitequarkthe wires themselves are made not from copper but from some white metal (Al?)11:00
whitequarkbut that's under plastic11:00
Action: wpwrak_ fondly remembers the openmoko debug board, with the FPC they wouldn't even want in hell11:00
whitequarkthe exposed parts are completely black.11:00
whitequarkthe contacts, I mean.11:00
larscwpwrak_: I think I've used up my stack of openmoko debugboard cables by now11:01
wpwrak_larsc: they lastest *that* long ? did they send you a 100 pack ?11:01
larsc5 or so11:01
whitequarknow if this was a copper cable I'd gently rub it to get rid of the oxide layer, but it's the first time I see such black coating11:01
whitequarkany ideas?11:01
larscisn't the black "coating" simply the oxide layer?11:02
whitequarkI don't think so, oxide so thick would mean it's exposed to some really aggressive atmosphere and I'm sure it was not11:03
whitequarkthat'd corrode everything else as well11:03
whitequarkplus it's uniform so I think it was like that from the factory11:03
whitequarkifixit has a glimpse of that cable in top right corner11:06
whitequarkblue plastic with black bars on it11:06
larscnever seen that before11:07
whitequarksame here11:08
Action: whitequark really doesn't want to shell out $100 more for a keyboard+case assembly11:09
wpwrak_grey + black sounds like silver11:13
wpwrak_silver oxide is black11:13
whitequarkand it conducts rather well, right11:14
wpwrak_yup, similar to copper11:14
wpwrak_not sure why you'd prefer is over copper, though11:15
whitequarkwell, membrane keyboards always use that silvery metal for contacts, and it appears like the flex cable coming out of the keyboard isn't just the cable11:17
whitequarkit's the continuation of the actual membranes it uses for detecting keypresses11:17
whitequarkso I guess they could cover Al contacts with Ag2O to keep oxide layer conductive... still weird11:18
wpwrak_in any case, if an FPC that previously worked fails, it's either a hairline crack in the cable or a connector coming apart. you can sometimes find hairline cracks by sending test signals through the cable and twisting it to see if you can make the crack open. but such a process could of course just create a defect :)11:23
wpwrak_if the crack is permanent / exists in a stable configuration, then you can use a continuity tester and a needle to search for the problem spot. 11:24
whitequarkif the crack is inside the keyboard itself I'm fucked though11:26
whitequarkit's clamped together 11:26
wpwrak_well, as they say, bad sex is better than no sex at all ;-)11:32
larscI can also recommend his 30c3 talk14:24
wpwrak_and parcel is in viracopos. now it seems there's no flight to buenos aires today ... :(19:22
eintopfwpwrak_: ?19:23
wpwrak_i have some parts for anelok on the way from digi-key. tracking their progress19:30
wpwrak_of course, the big uncertainty are customs. all the rest is reliable.19:31
eintopfah, cool19:31
DocScrutinizer05dman, the next sourcing nightmare20:38
DocScrutinizer05oooh parcel, mine left the Swiss frontier this afternoon, tomorrow I can fry sausages in Galden ;-P20:39
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: 120:40
whitequarki've yet to order mine20:40
DocScrutinizer05though I guess what's good for SMD (inert) is not exactly beneficial for frying sausages20:40
whitequarkwhy? I generally cook without oil and it's much better that way20:41
DocScrutinizer05I might have to dip those sausages into H2O2 before gladenizing them20:41
whitequarkplus galden is what, polyfluorinated polyethylene? stuff sounds inert enough you'd actually live after eating those sausages20:42
DocScrutinizer05I guess galdenizing is more like pressure steam cooker, not really anything like frying20:42
whitequarkit's healthier :p20:42
DocScrutinizer05though otoh, in a fryer it's covered by oil and also no oxygen around20:42
DocScrutinizer05perflourether is used as blood replacement in emergencies20:43
DocScrutinizer05seems it has some weird properties20:43
DocScrutinizer05:nod: that stuff, yeah20:44
whitequarkI sure don't want to know what that poor mouse feels. continuously feeling like you're drowning and yet neither actually drowning nor losing consciousness20:45
whitequarkactually looks more like a rat20:45
DocScrutinizer05A further special property of perfluoropolyethers is their excellent solution power for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They can therefore be used as an oxygen carrier in heart-lung machines or directly as a blood substitute.20:46
whitequarkit's in fact significantly more efficient than actual blood at transferring gasses20:47
whitequarkit's a pity the organism completely excretes the compound after ~48 hours20:48
DocScrutinizer05a pity that evolution sucks20:48
whitequarkbeing able to hold your breath for ~15 minutes is cool20:48
DocScrutinizer05inventing such weird stuff like red blood cells and missin out on perflourpolyether20:49
larscnow that we have the technology we can change that ;)20:49
whitequarkby the way, genetic code kinda looks like a software codebase maintained by a lot of very amateur programmers20:50
whitequarkabsolutely dominated by copy&paste20:50
larscand lots of dead code20:50
DocScrutinizer05with a lot of cargo cult, eh?20:50
whitequarkand don't forget about retrotransposons20:50
whitequarkI swear I've seen retrotransposons in software as well20:51
DocScrutinizer05I knew it: life sucks, where's the source?20:51
dos1where's the compiler?20:52
whitequarkwhy, we know about both cp and cc20:52
DocScrutinizer05ooh, pop pop pop --- could somebody please find a few anx7805 for me?20:52
DocScrutinizer05incl datasheet20:52
larscthere are certain genes which do nothing but increase the likelyhood that they are choosen over there allele when reproducing20:52
DocScrutinizer05_not_ that 3 pages pamphlet20:52
whitequarklarsc: I take it you like Dawkins? :]20:53
larscI read his book20:53
DocScrutinizer05a few == ~1000 maybe20:53
whitequarkI didn't actually, but the reference was obvious enough...20:54
DocScrutinizer05for the datasheet, one set is enough20:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: no, I'd send you a tar with a thousand pdfs, of course20:54
wpwrak_larsc: i wouldn;t20:55
whitequarknot gzipped, that would be cheating20:55
wpwrak_but so quick about saying something in the DNA does "nothing". people have been wrong about that quite a number of times by now ;-)20:55
Action: DocScrutinizer05 always thought that attack should rrather get run against manufacturers that advertise components and then refuse to sell them20:55
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: indeed20:56
DocScrutinizer05buzzword epigenetics20:56
larscwpwrak_: no, but there is something called junk DNA20:56
larscwhich seems to do nothing20:56
whitequarkthere's stuff like ALU repeats. the only thing they (used to) do is to reinsert themselves into the DNA20:57
larscbut as it turns out some of this junk DNA increases the likelyhood of its own reproduction20:57
whitequarkwhich is because there's such a lot of them20:57
whitequarkit's somewhat like a virus, except it only reproduces within a single cell20:57
whitequarkiirc about 60% of your genome consists of retrotransposons (of which ALU is one kind)20:58
larscsays the wikipedia page20:59
larsc42 actually21:00
DocScrutinizer05I still bet kicking all of them out would cause the complete system fail epically21:00
whitequarkfortunately that's easy to check21:00
whitequarkwell, relatively :p21:00
whitequarkactually let me check pubmed, I swear someone thought of it already21:00
wpwrak_larsc: still, that doesn't say that it does nothing. it just means that it's "cheating" a bit at evolution21:01
larscwpwrak_: well you never know if it does nothing21:01
whitequarkwpwrak_: but evolution doesn't have a direction. therefore you cannot cheat on it by definition21:01
DocScrutinizer05who knows, maybe they serve as shock absorbers for ionizing rays impacting the molecule, or whatever21:01
larscwpwrak_: lets say it like this, nobody has observed it doing anything21:02
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: this is actually one hypothesis. they just increase the volume of DNA.21:02
DocScrutinizer05hah, I'm good, no?=21:02
wpwrak_whitequark: well, i'd call "increasing the chance of reproduction without any external interaction" as sort of cheating :)21:02
wpwrak_whitequark: of course, it's just basically a second-order effect of the same evolutionary mechanisms21:03
wpwrak_larsc: do you think there's life anywhere in the universe outside of earth ? if yes, have you observed it ? ;-)21:03
whitequarkit's really not a directional process. it's not designed to select for fitness, it just happens to, in most cases21:03
larscthe organism is just a vehicle for the gene21:04
larscto drop more dawkins21:04
DocScrutinizer05no, the organism is just a vehicle for my crazy mind21:05
whitequarkhmpf, I can't seem to find the right keywords for pubmed21:05
wpwrak_quite a lot of science is of the sort that you watch something very very complex and your experiment setup extracts a very narrow bit of information while being totally oblivious to anything else happening, no matter the magnitude21:05
DocScrutinizer05eventuylly I hope to find a better one ;-P21:05
DocScrutinizer05(vehicle, that is)21:05
whitequarkI'd ask my biologist friends21:05
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: the thought of being able to copy a mind creeps me out21:05
larscwhitequark: iirc venter removed stuff from bacteria and see if it still works21:05
whitequark$ cp DocScrutinizer05 DocScrutinizer0621:06
DocScrutinizer06so, anything new?21:06
whitequarknow if DocScrutinizer06 sleeps with your wife, is that cheating?21:06
wpwrak_so not seeing something do something may simply mean that you haven't looked for specifically that item to do exactly that specific thing under the right circumstances and for the right number of times21:06
DocScrutinizer06wpwrak_: exactly21:07
whitequarkwpwrak_: it's a rather philosophical view. by the same logic, we don't actually know whether laws of physics work, we just have a degree of certainty21:07
wpwrak_every once in a while you read in some biochemical research that they recently noticed something that looks utterly trivial and you ask yourself "how could they possibly not have seen this before" ?21:07
whitequarkand there's nothing that prevents gravity from stopping working *right now*21:07
larscwhitequark: exactly my though21:07
whitequarkphilosophically that is21:07
whitequarkdoesn't mean those laws are useless :p21:07
larscwhitequark: or how do you know that gravity works five meters from where you are standing?21:08
DocScrutinizer06whitequark: incorrect, since those laws are beased on observing effects, not the absense of any effect21:08
whitequarkDocScrutinizer06: some of them are based on absence of any effect21:08
DocScrutinizer06rarely ever21:08
whitequarkfor example stability of particles. proton, various nuclei, etc21:08
DocScrutinizer05protons are not stable21:09
whitequarkdecay of proton has never been observed21:09
larscit's always a number game, does the math match the observations21:09
DocScrutinizer05well, it takes a while21:09
whitequarkhow do you know it's not stable?21:09
DocScrutinizer05some 10^30 years or such21:09
larsche knows ;)21:09
wpwrak_whitequark: i think the "degree of certainty" is exactly what we have even in physics. consider newton vs. einstein. consider "dark matter", "dark energy".21:09
whitequarkthat's the *lower* limit based on current observations21:09
whitequarkstandard model says proton doesn't decay. we never seen it either. so it's a hypothesis21:11
whitequarksimilar case: bismuth. for a long time it was thought that bismuth is stable. afaik we still haven't observe bismuth to decay yet, but it's now considered radioactive, with an incredibly long half-life21:12
whitequarkbased on some wacky quantum mechanical preductions21:12
DocScrutinizer056.6×10^33  to  1.29×10^34 years ;-P21:12
DocScrutinizer05proton half life21:13
whitequarkthat's the range for the lower limit21:13
whitequarknot lower and upper limit21:13
whitequarkare you even reading same article as me? :p21:13
whitequark"To date, all attempts to observe these events have failed. Recent experiments at the Super-Kamiokande water Cherenkov radiation detector in Japan gave lower limits for proton half-life, at 90% confidence level, of 6.6×1033 years via antimuon decay and 8.2×1033 years via positron decay.[3] Newer, preliminary results estimate a half-life of no less than 1.29×1034 years via positron decay.[4]"21:13
whitequark*no less*21:13
DocScrutinizer05oops, ok21:14
DocScrutinizer05this one dot in the exponent, meh!21:15
DocScrutinizer05anyway, I'm afraid it will take even longer to source anx780521:15
wpwrak_hurry, before the protons in the chips decay ;-)21:16
whitequarkI recall reading a physics encyclopedia as a child (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish) and it talked about LEP and LHC being the bright future projects21:18
DocScrutinizer05btw 286 devices21:18
whitequarkto think they're completed now. boggles mind21:19
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: congrats!21:19
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: I did worse: read brockhaus21:20
DocScrutinizer05nights long21:20
DocScrutinizer05with 9 years old it wasn't21:20
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: congratulations. your civilization has discovered "protected mode" now ;-)21:20
Action: wpwrak_ suddenly feels unexpectedly sane :)21:21
DocScrutinizer05err, you lost me21:21
wpwrak_i think the intel 286 introduced "protected mode"21:21
wpwrak_and i made a pun of how you "discover" things in games like civilization21:21
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: hmm, familiar name21:22
DocScrutinizer05err, I think when I did that, germanium transistors were the newest shit21:22
whitequarkah right, my grandmother used it all the time21:22
larscwhitequark: the wikipedia of the old days ;)21:23
nicksydneymorning lads21:23
larsc"When I was a child I'd read the Internet (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish)" ;)21:25
DocScrutinizer05it been in the left far end corner of my data crystal21:25
DocScrutinizer05next to TV (whatever that means)21:26
wpwrak_starting at, all the way to ;-)21:29
wpwrak_luckily, they didn't have ipv6 back then :)21:29
nicksydneyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sO79mDoL-pY 100W USB power delivery21:30

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