#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-01-08

DocScrutinizer05funny lil thing00:01
DocScrutinizer05intel quark 2core, tzz00:01
DocScrutinizer05a pity it has no battery and e-ink00:02
DocScrutinizer05and a few sensor pads for buttons00:02
wpwrak_bah, SD. that's so yesteryear. real hackers use microSD ;-)00:05
kristian1aulyou hacked yours today? :)00:11
wpwrak_heh, actually not. but i drew another footprint.00:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/sw-spdt-smt.fpd: add SW-CUS12B (for Copal CUS-12B and C&K PCM12SMTR) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fc2d10400:13
kristian1aultough you were to replace your tiny boards cpu with a memory card and some bitbanged IO00:16
wpwrak_yeah, especially for the RF ;-)00:16
nicksydney_jsut realized the bottom part of the micro USB that I'm using need to be filed as there is  a plastic mounting and i don't have a drill 00:17
Action: nicksydney_ will use a nail filing to file the plastic thingy of the USB00:17
nicksydney_wpwrak_: thought real hacker use telephaty to store information not microSD :)00:17
wpwrak_finally a switch i don't have to hate quite so much. page 348 of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf00:18
kristian1auldont youu like push buttons?00:19
kristian1aulerghh switches00:19
wpwrak_that's a slide switch00:20
wpwrak_push buttons with momentary contact tend to be nicer00:20
wpwrak_hmm, fedex thinks my latest digi-key goodies will take a week to make it to BUE :-(00:21
kristian1aulsince when you print that sheets, looks nice (because the qi at the top page)00:22
wpwrak_hmm ?00:23
kristian1aulthe pdf link above00:23
kristian1aulwell, considering the weather forecast... Tought fedex is always good to break its own deliver times00:23
wpwrak_yeah, should have included some liquids. see if they arrive as ice ;-)00:26
DocScrutinizer05dang, I start to wonder what's the exact definition of "ice"00:52
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's a good sign that I need a break 00:53
wpwrak_the exact definition and with what sort of tolerances it comes :)00:55
DocScrutinizer05maybe "solid crystal aggregate state of liquids that are liquid at room temperature"00:56
DocScrutinizer05though, what's dry ice (frozen CO2) then?00:57
DocScrutinizer05definitely time for a break00:58
DocScrutinizer0516h are enough00:59
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: 16 is such a weird number make that 18h and i'm sold with that number :)01:30
nicksydneyLCA2014 is live streaming if anyoneis interested to watch http://timvideos.us/lcatv01:31
nicksydneywpwrak_: the yellow paper was a major success for toner transfer02:47
wpwrak_(yellow paper) looks great !10:05
nicksydneyi was really blown away when i peel off the paper..didn't expect it was going to be soo damn good :)12:36
nicksydneywpwrak_: done the LED wheel...and tinning the track helps a lot in soldering...one thing i notice when soldering the GND the solder does not stick well looks like the heat is "absorbed" by the surrounding copper ?12:45
nicksydneyLED wheel ...  (led wheel after soldering) http://ctrlv.in/280619 and http://ctrlv.in/280621.... (tinning pic) http://ctrlv.in/28062212:52
nicksydneythose LED SMD really pack some punch really bright12:57
wpwrak_nicksydney: ah yes, large ground areas do that :) you can a) use more heat, b) heat the PCB from the bottom, c) break down the ground areas to be a bit less conductive.13:12
wpwrak_a) increases the risk of damaging traces. b) is usually messy. the feasibility of c) depends a bit on the situation13:13
wpwrak_(leds) pretty. now christmas can come ;-)13:14
nicksydneywpwrak_: christmas comes late .. better late than never i suppose :)13:14
nicksydneyi think i will work off with braking the ground into different section13:14
nicksydneyhaving the tinned track make it easy to solder the component..all i have to do is just place the component in its position and heat up the tinned solder and the component straight way hooked 13:16
nicksydneymake it very easy13:16
nicksydneyhttp://www.ozobot.com/ .. cute but not open source ...hmm13:28
wpwrak_(solder) you'll want to have a little bit of solder on the tip of the iron, already for heat transfer. but yes, you need almost nothing.13:31
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: you recall that nasty dispute between me and Andy regarding OVP on USB? See http://www.oppoforums.com/attachments/removed_msm8960_chipset_training__introduction_and_chipset_overview-pdf.86/ p.1713:51
DocScrutinizer05>>Over-voltage protection USB:  Fully integrated up to +28 V (integrated OVP FET)<<13:52
DocScrutinizer05I think Andy's approach of "show me a charger that kills the device and we will consider improving our OVP beyond the 5.5V we got" is not sustainable13:53
DocScrutinizer05even less is the "despite ABS MAX is 5.5V, I haven't seen a device go south on even 9V"13:55
wpwrak_28 V .. nice13:56
DocScrutinizer05btw you *might* want to keep a local copy of this pdf, it seems a pretty rare leak of otherwise highly classified Qualcom docs13:58
DocScrutinizer05the qualcom would be a really nice chip, if it wasn't for this insane NDA stuff and the fact that modem shares RAM with APE13:59
DocScrutinizer05for the average hw manuf or OEM as well as for NSA it at least doesn't matter, for NSA etc it even is the best design they could hope for ;-)14:01
DocScrutinizer05for free hardware it is unbearable14:01
nicksydneythought 0603 is already small for me to solder...now i'm seeing 0402 ..i'll be damned ..that thing is TINY !14:11
wpwrak_0402 is just the right size. that is, unless you need to run traces under the chip. that you can't do with 0402.14:12
nicksydneyspoke too soon....there are more14:15
nicksydney01005 (0402 metric): 0.4 mm × 0.2 mm (0.016 in × 0.0079 in). Typical power rating for resistors = 0.031 watt[8]14:15
nicksydney0201 (0603 metric): 0.6 mm × 0.3 mm (0.024 in × 0.012 in). Typical power rating for resistors = 0.05 watt[8]14:15
nicksydney0201 and 0100514:15
nicksydney0.4mm .... speckle :)14:15
wpwrak_yeah, but these are on the nasty end of the range. and they don't give much of a benefit since you need to have some keep-out area around them anyway.14:16
wpwrak_and the keep-out area doesn't shrink. it's basically the size of your soldering iron's tip.14:16
wpwrak_if you go below that, you must use reflow soldering and rework gets complicated14:17
nicksydneyi can imagine how complicated that will be... :) ... phones must be using those small packages i assume14:19
Action: nicksydney looking around on eBay to buy more resistors and LEDs :)14:20
DocScrutinizer05btw here's another one of those rare docs: http://d-h.st/xJ914:42
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: 0201 are kinda standard on phones nowadays, yes14:45
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: wow ! don't want to mess around with that kind of small package ... it's very tiny..i can go blind soldering it :)14:45
DocScrutinizer05you can't realistically solder that stuff by hand14:46
DocScrutinizer050402 is nasty for soldering14:46
DocScrutinizer05particularly when your eyes are 50+ years old14:47
DocScrutinizer05I heard 0201 start dissolving completely in high humidity environments ;-P14:48
nicksydneywhich means phone stop working then  :)14:48
DocScrutinizer05even a 0402 can vanish into a parallel dimension when you drop it on your workbench during soldering. It never again shows up, no matter how long you search for it14:49
DocScrutinizer050201 will simply dive into the solder on your soldering iron tip and you can't get them out of the solder anymore ;-P14:50
nicksydneydon't want to imagine it falls on your food and you accidentally ingest it 14:50
larscif you are not careful you might inhale them ;)14:51
DocScrutinizer05yeah, nano particles are considered a potential health hazard X-P14:51
Action: DocScrutinizer05 eagerly waits for the cold solder, some glue that has very low electrical resistivity and cures during a few minutes or even by gently heating or exposing it to UV14:52
wpwrak_and 01005 is where homeopathy finally meets engineering14:52
DocScrutinizer05http://d-h.st/xJ9: R2475 0[Ohm] 5% 0.050W   X-P14:53
DocScrutinizer05dunno why I recalled this when you say homeopathy14:54
wpwrak_some warez download that wants my cell phone number ? i don't think so :)14:54
DocScrutinizer05I didn't need to give any phone number14:55
larscwpwrak_: the lower download button14:56
larscthe gray one14:56
DocScrutinizer05yeah, prolly. There are 214:56
DocScrutinizer05and tell me, what's 0Ohm +/- 5% ?14:57
DocScrutinizer050 * 1.05 ?14:58
DocScrutinizer050 * 0.95 ?14:58
wpwrak_don't have resistors also some small parasitic inductance ? then you could still reach those 50 mW :)14:58
wpwrak_though you're more likely to hit the voltage limit14:59
DocScrutinizer05sure in real life you can, but not based on the parameters specified in schematics14:59
DocScrutinizer05those parameters are mere BS15:00
DocScrutinizer05if they had written "<0.001Ohm. >1A" that would be parameters everybody can find a matching "resistor" for15:01
DocScrutinizer05but "0[Ohm] 5% 0.050W" is a very funny joke15:02
DocScrutinizer05ooh, you might be interested in a nice mail from Nikolaus, loosely related to hw-hacking: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1404804#post140480415:04
DocScrutinizer05dang! is there smoke escaping from display in http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/DSC01833.jpeg ?15:07
larscsteering thrusters15:09
DocScrutinizer05larsc: are you available for a bit of kernel/driver adaption work?15:10
larscwhat do you need15:11
DocScrutinizer05e.g. I wonder if the crt12 touchscreen controller already has decent drivers15:11
larscdo you know what is in there?15:12
larscfreescale seems to have a driver, but it doesn't seem to use the input framework15:16
larscso it's rubish15:16
larscare you already using the chip or do you think about using it?15:19
DocScrutinizer05i'm decided to use that chip15:43
DocScrutinizer05we already announced it as a property for Neo90015:43
DocScrutinizer05pinch/rotate 2-touch gesture recognition15:44
DocScrutinizer05if you need, we can pay for a eval board available for that chip15:45
DocScrutinizer05though I'd prefer you to do more than just crtouch10 and we ship one of the Neo900 protos to you ;-)15:46
larsci can pick one up from Dr. Nics lab15:47
larscit's not that far away15:47
DocScrutinizer05we need to ship at least a BSP on debian basis with the devices15:48
DocScrutinizer05such BSP of course needs a working driver for the touch controller, among other stuff15:49
DocScrutinizer05and we pretty much would like to evaluate the hw before we start MP, as well. To avoid issues like jitter etc15:50
DocScrutinizer05might need some LPF on the 4-wire, or sth15:50
DocScrutinizer05only proto eval will tell15:51
larscI have no idea about how to create a debian SDK15:55
DocScrutinizer05err, that's no witchcraft. Just use a bare bones debian system and provide all the drivers for the particular hardware on the device on top of it15:59
DocScrutinizer05then *maybe* add some *very* basic test UIs for stuff like the crtouch10, that maybe shows the raw output from /dev/ts or whatever16:00
DocScrutinizer05just a comprehensive set of device drivers and as icing on top some testframe that allows to see the hardware operate16:01
DocScrutinizer05for modem that would be an AT minicom-alike interface to control the critter (confort version: do some "macro" to automatically execute a sequence of predefined AT commands to configure the modem according to what we recommend, sth like (8)chat)16:04
DocScrutinizer05plus an audio driver that pipes audio e.g. to and from the wired headset16:04
DocScrutinizer05plus a network device that you can ping or whatever you like to do with it, for the GPRS16:05
DocScrutinizer05we will need some additional tools and stuff, to demonstarte how to do the tight modem monitoring - for TX activity, power-up state, GPS antenna enabled, etc. This boils down to monitoring a few GPIO 16:07
DocScrutinizer05similar driver+testframe combos will be needed e.g. for the FMRX, FMTX, of course the WLAN/BT (all 4 prolly one module TiWi5)... etc pp16:09
DocScrutinizer05for WLAN the testframe is iwconfig and the driver is wl12xx.ko I'd guess16:10
DocScrutinizer05when for a certain subsystem it's hard to write a testframe but there's already a decent app in e.g. SHR existing, and that app allows to test the hardware in a non-obscure way, then even better16:13
DocScrutinizer05e.g for crtouch10 we won't need a silly testframe like /usr/bin/gnu/od -An -tx1 -w16 /dev/input/ts when there's a drawing app already, that even makes use of pinch/rotate16:14
DocScrutinizer05see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv3X5y-ajtc for a typical testframe app for multitouch16:16
DocScrutinizer05admittedly a very highly sophisticated one, since the stantum guys wanted to sell their stuff and thus needed something catchy, with a high eyecandy gactor16:17
DocScrutinizer05factor even16:17
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter when the thing has framebuffer instead of X1116:18
DocScrutinizer05you get the picture16:18
DocScrutinizer05all it needs is a way to start it (via remote shell, or by 27 times pressing the aux button) and it demonstrates the hw capabilities and actual working hardware16:19
DocScrutinizer05when the drivers are already fit for "upstream" then all the better, but that's not mandatory16:21
DocScrutinizer05as long as somebody savvy can create upstream-compliant drivers based on what the BSP demonstrates16:22
DocScrutinizer05in that regard what freescale provided are probably typical low quality BSP driver implementations16:22
larscthat sounds like a list of things that could keep a couple of people busy for a couple of months16:22
DocScrutinizer05I don't think it's that much16:23
DocScrutinizer05modem audio and audio in general is a nasty beast16:24
DocScrutinizer05the rest looks pretty manageable16:24
larscwe'll see16:24
DocScrutinizer05for 95% of the subsystems there already exist complete linux driver implementations16:24
DocScrutinizer05the TiWi5 for example is based on the tw1273 which is used in maemo Harmatten16:25
larsctell me when you have a prototype ready and I'll see what I can do16:25
DocScrutinizer05btw when you'd be interested to majke some real money, I have a "daughter project" in mind, which is sth like "port maemo fremantle and make it security hardened" means set up a few existing security enhancements on top of it, like cryptfs on rootfs, VPN, dunno what else we'd need. Then we would sell this distro with the device and you could tell what you want to ask for it from customers. I.E. we offer devices with "fremantle 16:30
DocScrutinizer05security anti-NSA edition" preinstalled and ask a 25 or 50 EUR for the software installation, which goes mostly to you16:30
DocScrutinizer05I have prospects for a few 1000 devices like that, just here in Germany. Centralized via one "IT manager"16:33
DocScrutinizer05these are on top of our current geek customers16:34
DocScrutinizer05such thing could become amazingly huge16:35
DocScrutinizer05only downside: _we_ (as in: Neo900 group) can't finance nor drive such project. I can just offer support16:36
DocScrutinizer05and cooperation16:36
larscsecurity hardening is really hard to get right16:36
DocScrutinizer05sure, but we don't need to meet mil specs regarding that16:36
DocScrutinizer05just provide a somewhot useable and established UX aka "ecosystem" aka OS&app-collection that is already made with user privacy in mind16:38
larsceverything else is snakeoil16:38
DocScrutinizer05nah, our hw design already does 95% of the job for you16:39
DocScrutinizer05this is not meant to withstand a torture in NSA forensic labs16:39
DocScrutinizer05it just shouldn't give away all your contacts on a rogue SMS already16:40
DocScrutinizer05or keep them reasonably safe against the random spy with no special skills when device is lost16:40
DocScrutinizer05ensure that device is off when you switch it off, without need to remove battery16:41
DocScrutinizer05make sure that device doesn't eavesdrop on audio even when it is on16:41
DocScrutinizer05a LOT of people are interested in such a device16:42
DocScrutinizer05add a cryptfs with password query on unlock/power-up to that, plus our awesome hw-driven tight modem monitoring16:43
DocScrutinizer05and you're basically done. 16:43
DocScrutinizer05what you need to make sure: kick off all simple ways for user to install potentially rogue apps16:44
DocScrutinizer05simply done by setting up repos accordingly16:44
DocScrutinizer05and not allowing browser to install apps or even run JS or whatever. Best run browser in a sandbox/chroot16:45
DocScrutinizer05we don't need *high* security. We need reasonable setup of the wholoe system so users know it#s not THAT easy to catch a nasty virus or to spy on them without even doing a half day of preparing special tools16:46
DocScrutinizer05and you can post a looong list of things this device&OS will *not* do, unlike most other phones: call home, send your contacts list to anybody who asks for it, stay on while pretending it's off, allow your boss/fiance/competitor to simply install a 500EUR spyware during the 5 minutes you keft the device on table while going to poop, etc pp16:49
DocScrutinizer05believe me, customers are not interested in "100% security" - they know pretty well such thing doesn't exist, the least when it comes to mobile phones16:52
larscfirst get things up and running then we can thing about the next step16:54
DocScrutinizer05and for sure they don't expect the device to be hardened against physical attacks in a lab, or similar threats that involve high effort16:54
dos1DocScrutinizer05: what about root access, usb, bootloader? those should be somehow hardened as well I suppose16:54
DocScrutinizer05sure, dos116:54
dos1but yeah, with neo900 that shouldn't be hard16:56
DocScrutinizer05to a degree so that it's not simple to install spyware while you left the device to some rogue guy for a few hours, without you noticing later on16:56
dos1when thinking about "hardened fremantle" I initially still had n900 in mind with nolo etc. :D16:57
DocScrutinizer05a crypted rootfs already does a pretty good job for this16:57
DocScrutinizer05sure you probably *could* create a system that gets booted and runs your original system in a VM 16:58
DocScrutinizer05so you possibly wouldn't notice the vast differences in behavior during boot (takes much longer, shows unusual displays for a while, etc)16:59
DocScrutinizer05but then such attack takes much more effort than installing a commercially available standard spyware17:00
DocScrutinizer05and had to get tailored to your particular device17:00
dos1just make a small system that mimics the passphrase dialog17:00
dos1should be managable in few hours if you really wanted to17:01
DocScrutinizer05for that you had to know what the passphrase dialog looks like, and you had to boot into the original system ag´fter querying the passphrase, in a way so user doesn't notice any differences17:01
dos1had to know what the passphrase dialog looks like - easy, just boot it and watch :D17:02
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and then go back to lab and build it to your rogueware17:02
DocScrutinizer05and meanwhile user changed the way this dialog looks for him, maybe even automatically by a cronjob17:03
dos1 you had to boot into the original system ag´fter querying the passphrase, in a way so user doesn't notice any differences - you just have to get the key once, so for some cases you may just force one unexpected reboot after that17:03
DocScrutinizer05again, how do you run such attack against a guy who gives you the phone for one hour?17:04
DocScrutinizer05or even for just 5 min17:04
dos15 min - yeah, rather impossible17:04
dos11 hour - might work17:04
dos1unless there are some additional things like cron-changed details you mentioned17:05
DocScrutinizer05I don't see that happen. No "applied forensics corp" will ever sell a "spy your fiance" app for 1500 bucks, that a noob can install on a Neo900 with "fremantle hardened edition"17:05
DocScrutinizer05so, mission accomplished17:06
DocScrutinizer05again, nobody expects the thing to withstand a massive direct attack run by a group of experts with time and funds17:07
dos1but if your fiance is computer geek like us and he/she is extremely envious, it might work :P17:07
DocScrutinizer05people want reasonable protection against simple attacks your neighbour could run against you17:07
DocScrutinizer05when you think you can outsmart the CIA or NSA or whomever, when they got special interest in particularly you, then you lost the game before you started17:09
DocScrutinizer05and users pretty well are aware of that fact17:09
dos1sure, I just imagine that my neighbour may have for instance the same knowledge that I am17:09
dos1I have*17:09
dos1so if I can find some way to break into such device of my neighbour, then it's not good enough IMO :D17:10
DocScrutinizer05I promise you couldn't come up with a reasonable attack sttrategy that would allow you to install spyware on my Neo900 without me noticing17:10
dos1there's also the matter of what "without me noticing" means17:11
larscis that a challenge?17:11
DocScrutinizer05that's pretty simple: any such attacker may not risk that *anybody* ever notices17:11
dos1for you some unexpected reboot while booting would be clear signal that something is wrong17:11
dos1DocScrutinizer05: and what if they are ready to risk? if ~90% possibility of not getting caught is good enough?17:12
dos1while for you reboot would be clear sign, someone else might not even think about it17:13
DocScrutinizer05create an attack you think might work, and we will discuss it. Until then I say what we need is a fremantle with cryptfs and browser in a snadbox, and a proper lockout of any way to install random apps that are not certified by the one who offers that hardening service17:14
dos1oh, another idea - instead of "unexpected reboot" just fake battery going flat17:14
DocScrutinizer05so what?17:14
dos1I mean, do that after typing the passphrase17:15
dos1then go into "act dead" mode while doing some heavy infinite loop on cpu to actually make the battery flat17:15
DocScrutinizer05again, then what?17:16
DocScrutinizer05then you maybe got the passphrase, and with much luck you actually were able to send it out via WLAN or WWAN17:16
DocScrutinizer05you still have not installed anything on the device17:17
dos1if you have passphrase, you have the rootfs17:17
dos1so together with sending passphrase you can setup remote shell as well17:17
DocScrutinizer05and you're still thinking of a simple comstant text passphrase17:18
DocScrutinizer05remote shell to YOUR system17:18
DocScrutinizer05not to the USER's system17:18
dos1to your system with rootfs of users system mounted and decrypted17:18
DocScrutinizer05when you use some sort of challenge-response authentication, then you're pretty lost with your approach17:19
dos1so it has to be taken into consideration as well :)17:20
DocScrutinizer05again, we are not interested in this sort of highly tailored-to-singular-target threat17:21
DocScrutinizer05when you think your authentication can get tampered by such attack, the the company who offers such service simply ships a new authentication every month17:22
DocScrutinizer05good luck with keeping your penetration tools up to date17:22
dos1if the scenario I described would be possible, then I'd consider it not hardened enough, as it's not very sophisticated attack IMO17:24
DocScrutinizer05to make it a tad more challenging for my fiance, we can roll out new authentication method/plugin in randomized timeframe, so nobody knows if the tool you want to use will still work or already make the whole rogue effort fire back at you17:24
dos1average joe couldn't do that on his wife's phone anyway, but average dos1 could :D17:24
dos1but if some challenge-response or whatever else makes it not possible, then it's fine17:25
dos1however, allowing to boot some different OS without authentication is still asking for a trouble in my eyes :P17:26
DocScrutinizer05nobody is going to boot your device while you're pooping, since they couldn't boot it to the original system to hide that they messed with device17:27
DocScrutinizer05and, thinking about it, we maybe could implement a boot counter so any booting of other OS would get detected by the still untampered original OS17:29
dos1yeah, just thought about it as well17:30
dos1and maybe some led blinking periodically that cannot be turned off programmatically to indicate that device is on?17:32
DocScrutinizer05that's already planned17:32
DocScrutinizer05though optionally17:32
dos1so without "fake off" possibility it should be much harder, yes17:33
dos1while allowing booting some other os might be handy in terms of recovery17:34
DocScrutinizer05fake-off is a pretty low concern to me, since average user will NOT turn off their Neo900 since it#s safe when on17:34
dos1DocScrutinizer05: but battery flat scenarios with fake-off might mask some unexpected behaviour17:35
DocScrutinizer05battery flat would be double-useless 17:36
dos1I mean, faking battery going flat, so you're not suprised when it goes off17:37
DocScrutinizer05since other hw monitoring e.g. for modem-TX also kicks in when you pretend you're off 17:37
dos1as opposed to sudden unexpected reboot which is causing you to be suspicious17:37
DocScrutinizer05so you pretend battery flat, while device LED signals not only device on but also signals constant TX activity17:38
dos1when LED signals device on then there's no point of doing battery flat faking17:39
DocScrutinizer05and a sudden battery-flat is as suspicious as is a sudden reboot17:39
dos1and one might come with some other things to do than modem tx17:40
dos1DocScrutinizer05: imagine that you went to party/shopping/wherever but forgot about your phone, allowing fiance to play with it17:41
DocScrutinizer05yeaah, and my fiance or neighbor might finally decide it's way easier to implant a hidden mike with own battery and all, rather than tamper my Neo90017:41
dos1hah :D17:41
DocScrutinizer05particularly since I immediately swap battery when it's flat17:42
DocScrutinizer05and immediately boot device up when it's down17:42
DocScrutinizer05which pretty much renders all your busy efforts void17:43
dos1other users might have other habits17:43
dos1so someone returns, "hey, why it's off", turns it on, loading, passphrase, loading, it fakes turning off from low battery, "ooh, battery went flat"17:45
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I ask you to implement such attack so it actually works, or it literally didn't happen17:46
dos1I'm not saying that it is or will be possible to implement such attack17:47
DocScrutinizer05users want a device that doesn't come with spyware preinstalled, no way to install spyware by surfing arbitrary websites, and not acting as expected to silent SMS and similar stuff17:47
dos1I'm saying that it might be possible, so it should be considered17:48
dos1as it can be prevented by very basic things like some led indicators17:48
DocScrutinizer05and particularly no standard commercial tool to install that turns the device into a zombie controlled from remote17:48
DocScrutinizer05and they want their contacts and notes to be considerably safe when device is lost17:49
DocScrutinizer05and when it returns to them, they will consider it compromised anyway17:49
DocScrutinizer05when they leave the device 5min on table or one night in charger, they expect it to be up and running when they come back17:51
DocScrutinizer05and maybe we can train them to remove battery for 5 seconds before they power their device up after a few days it stayed off in a locker17:52
DocScrutinizer05this will all not help against a sophisitcated hichtech attack, but it will make your neighbor's life _much_ harder when he plans to mess with your Neo90017:54
DocScrutinizer05and for the customers I'm talking about, that's just a sufficient improvement of security over anything they could get now17:55
DocScrutinizer05swo: mission accomplished17:55
DocScrutinizer05so, even17:55
DocScrutinizer05security is not about 100%, it#s about teaching users where the limits of such security are17:56
DocScrutinizer05http://culturedigitally.org/2014/01/spam-and-the-challenge-of-chasing-shadows/  about Neo90019:35
DocScrutinizer05(use "find" to spot the right section)19:35
wpwrak_nice one ! but it's not just for maemo enthusiasts :)19:42
DocScrutinizer05well, that's the "uneducated approach" to it19:45
DocScrutinizer05actually from my side the motivation pretty much been exactly like what this article describes19:45
DocScrutinizer05I just seen the opportunity and the synergy of several intentions, desires, events...19:46
DocScrutinizer05not just by incident the seeding message been in a ML thread tagged "funding an ubuntu phone [NOW!]" OWTTE19:47
wpwrak_"plus a few circuit addons like hw matrix kb" it all sounded so easy ;-)19:53
DocScrutinizer05suuure, when I had elaborated what it actually takes, nobody would've even started thinking about it20:07
DocScrutinizer05I been pretty aware of the audio and whatnot issues20:09
DocScrutinizer05what I didn't expect been absolute unobtainium of decent PoP chips20:09
DocScrutinizer05as well as total refusal of users to accept "only" 512MB RAM20:11
DocScrutinizer05aftr all the current system rarely ever uses >100MB swap20:11
wpwrak_zeitgeist sometimes sucks :)20:12
DocScrutinizer05thus 256MB RAM + say 150MB swap = ~400MB memory20:12
wpwrak_just try selling a good high-end B&W TV ... ;-)20:12
DocScrutinizer05meh, you don't want to say 512MB RAM is like B&W ?20:13
wpwrak_ok. color, but with VHF only :)20:13
DocScrutinizer05as opposed to what? VHF + UHF?20:14
wpwrak_+ cable :)20:14
DocScrutinizer05so DVB20:15
dos1let me check the amount of RAM on my Freerunner... :D20:17
dos158 MB used, 64 MB free20:18
dos1could be more freed if opimd-notifier was in C instead of Python20:19
wpwrak_hehe :) so much about "512 MB is not enough !!!!"20:20
wpwrak_well, it's of course that you can never have too much memory20:20
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: Neo900 can be created as a dev board for students to learn about mobile phones 21:45
nicksydneywpwrak_: how's the weather down there ?21:49
wpwrak_pretty good. warm, clear sky, a good summer day21:50
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: if Neo900 were drawn out as a single sided design how big the board will be ?21:50
nicksydneywpwrak_: it's time to head to the beach and check out all those beautiful girls :)21:50
nicksydneywpwrak_: oh don't forget the vodka21:54
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: infinite21:55
DocScrutinizer05you can mathematically prove that you need at least 6 layers to un-nest a BGA of SoC's complexity21:56
wpwrak_the beaches are way too crowded. there are better places to see girls :)22:10
wpwrak_(6 layers) where ought to be a lot of other parameters if this is supposed to be true :)22:10
DocScrutinizer05I'm desperate from openmoko.org MX broken with my SMTP mail sending22:16
DocScrutinizer05well, the other parameter is ball pitch, and obviously footprint at large22:18
DocScrutinizer05it's simply ridiculous to try and route a fine pitch ball grid array with some 6 or more concentric rings of balls on a single or double layer PCB22:20
DocScrutinizer05there's a certain minimum width of traces and a minimum diameter for laser vias22:21
wpwrak_well, single layer sounds more like a form of art if not magic ;)22:21
DocScrutinizer05(for double layer obviously, for single you don't have vias)22:22
wpwrak_the limiting factor may be power. even if you manage to get everything outside with, say, two layers, you'd still have very complicated paths and very long power routes. that can't be good for high-speed circuits.22:23
DocScrutinizer05so you can see easily how you need to route some 5 or 6 traces between two balls of the 0.4mm(?) FPBGA22:23
wpwrak_well, unless what have is a huge fpga of which you're only using a small number of i/os. then you may be able to get away with it.22:23
wpwrak_0.4 mm sounds suckish :)22:24
DocScrutinizer05not even then, since you can't place balls on solder stop with traces underneath instead of pads22:25
wpwrak_yeah, you need a pitch that lets you at least route one trace between balls22:26
DocScrutinizer05I think TI itself says for OMAP4 you need 8-layer at least, to un-nest22:26
wpwrak_how much easier life could be if someone made and sold decent pops :)22:27
DocScrutinizer05for me right now it would make me perfectly happy when I could find out what the heck is breaking my email22:28
DocScrutinizer05yesterdsay it temporarily started to work absolutely flawless again, then eventually broke and now it#s back to fubar it been yesterday morning22:29
DocScrutinizer05I tested with thunderbird as well, and same result22:30
DocScrutinizer05[2014-01-08 21:41:22] <pabs3> DocScrutinizer05: hmm, succeeded in sending myself a mail using swaks and a new test account: swaks --tls --auth --to pabs3@bonedaddy.net --server smtp.openmoko.org22:31
DocScrutinizer05I'm totally puzzled even which port to use22:32
DocScrutinizer05while it seems like smtp is port 25, thunderbird started stating something like 564 or whatever for the default of STARTLS22:33
DocScrutinizer05pabs3's line above doesn't really state which port and which exact authentication etc he used22:34
nicksydneyi'm sure someone here can help me to understand something inside Kernel :)23:46
nicksydneymost of the time i read about graphics driver and it says that the vendor closed source it....so was wondering when the vendor closed source the driver does this mean that the kernel only knows how to load the driver (.so) file and then use like a virtual function to call the functions inside the closed code ?23:48
wpwrak_typically the kernel code of closed drivers is relatively simple and open. but the code that does the real work runs in user space, talks to that kernel driver, and is closed.23:59
--- Thu Jan 9 201400:00

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