#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-01-06

nicksydneylarsc: that's why i asked i have no idea if it can be that small00:03
larscthe size of the chip is often larger than the die because of all the IO signals, in this case you don't have that many IO signals00:04
nicksydneyin my mind thought even if is is small can it be that very small because looking at the packaging of that dongle it is very small 00:04
nicksydneyahhh..so you mean that it is possible that this kind of dongle does not have that many pins and also it does not have the normal MCU packaging that are normally sold through digikey and the like ?00:05
nicksydneynow that makes perfect sense00:07
nicksydneyso this means most products out there in the market that are small packages normally have this kind of setup inside00:07
larsca specialized mcu instead of a general purpose mcu00:07
nicksydneyis that why when you crack open one of this kind of consumer product..there is a black blob ?00:07
larscif there is any software in there at all00:08
nicksydneysomething like this http://i.stack.imgur.com/1FUML.gif?00:08
larscit's cheaper that way00:08
larscthe chip is basically build right ontop of the pcb00:09
larschere is what it looks like without the blob http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Bonding_wire_defect1.jpg00:10
nicksydneyso how do i go about producting product with this kind of 'cheaper' version of the MCU ? we need to request from the vendor like Freescale, Atmel, etc tha?00:11
larscno idea00:13
larscbut I don't think you need to go to the vendor00:13
nicksydneywas these bonding pictures taken with a high powered microscope ? i can imagine te wire must be damn tiny !00:15
larscthe die is a bit bigger than a thumb, so it not that small00:20
larscprobably a good camera00:21
larscbut that's a full SoC. Now imagine something specialized like your usb to bluetooth adapter00:24
larscthe die will be tiny00:24
nicksydneyhmmm...thought people don't sleep here :)03:48
wpwrak_nicksydney: (android) hmm, seems fairly complicated. note sure you'd want to keep use counts, too. the security implications would need examining.04:33
nicksydneywpwrak_: fair enought...when you say complicated in terms of the hw design or the fw ?04:34
wpwrak_it's all in fw, isn't it ?04:36
wpwrak_microSD use in any case should be  "very little" / "vastly excessive abundance of space"04:37
nicksydneywpwrak_: let's consider a use case...user insert sdcard and anelok reads all info in memory...user remove sdcard but the info still in memory...using other device (android) it can get certain info about the device using bluetooth04:39
wpwrak_if you remove the memcard, anelok will not work. it doesn't have large caches of this sort.04:44
wpwrak_in fact, it should be "data-less" by design. that way, you can "wipe" it by removing the card.04:45
nicksydneyso if there is no sdcard then anelok assume it will not do anything04:48
nicksydneyit will blink or something to indicate that it is in "wipe" mode 04:48
wpwrak_it can display a complaint :)04:48
nicksydneyok we use the OLED :)04:49
nicksydneyand once sdcard is detected it will be in a "running" mode 04:49
wpwrak_and it can still provide some communication functionality. it will still have access to the keys stored in the "secure" area (the mcu) but the bulk of the information is on the card04:50
wpwrak_yes, then it has information about accounts and maybe also other things like more fonts and such04:50
nicksydneywhat other things from the android list that you think can be used ? or none ? :)04:51
wpwrak_not sure about the distance thing. chances are it'll just produce lots of false alarms, and mainly when you leave the droid behind, not when someone makes off with the anelok04:52
wpwrak_backup ... dunno what protocols are there. if there's some "storage over bt", that could be used04:53
nicksydneylots of false alarms ? how this ?04:55
wpwrak_because you may not pay a lot of attention to having your droid close05:01
wpwrak_e.g., in an office or at home05:01
wpwrak_"secure" places05:01
nicksydneytrue...but the user will have the option in the droid app to ignore or disable this kind of warning05:03
nicksydneythe rationale is to take anelok as your 'password bodyguard'05:04
nicksydneyso user treat it as part of their day to day device05:04
nicksydneyif they do this that means they will not forget to bring it out with them same as their droid or credit card05:04
nicksydneyAND since anelok works like a 'keyboard' it can be used also in your droid device 05:05
wpwrak_as a BTLE keyboard, some day (BTLE is currently too insecure for this. but time if working in our favour ;-)05:05
wpwrak_#s/ if / is /05:05
wpwrak_and yes, i envision that people will keep anelok close. in fact, closer than their droid. so the droid watching over anelok seems a little silly :)05:06
nicksydneyor we can utilise whistling to detect if anelok is withing our distance ?05:07
nicksydneymain thing is to track it05:07
nicksydneyas we can't install GPS :)05:07
nicksydneyit's complementary i suppose05:08
wpwrak_no new sensors :) there's already not a lot of space05:10
nicksydneyexactly .. so we can use the BT to do some the distance checking05:11
nicksydneybetter be able to know if it is close by rather than not knowing where it is 05:11
nicksydneyuse case "last night got drunk and got someone at home in bed and the next morning you forgot where you keep your anelok" 05:12
nicksydneywe can also turn off the distance checking with extra menu in fw to select/deselect this kind of option05:13
wpwrak_well, you can keep track of where and when you last saw it. that would apply to any BTLE device.05:17
wpwrak_now there's a nicely compact battery holder :) http://www.batteryholders.com/part.php?pn=BC-2003&original=CR2032&override=CR203205:20
wpwrak_alas, made of unobtainium. not even octopart knows it05:23
nicksydneywpwrak_: so from your perspective what you think the bluetooth is used for in anelok ?05:29
wpwrak_keyboard and analok-specific account selection05:36
wpwrak_for now, all we can do will be over proprietary (but open) protocols since BTLE is very insecure05:36
wpwrak_so the btle-capable chip is more an investment into the future05:37
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: so how do I get a destination in Argentina to the Neo900 list ? :) and how much do you estimate your kits with a full case will be ? (since i don't have an N900, just the PCB would be useless for me)11:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/stat: add processing of irclog.whitequark.org; rename #milkymist to #m-labs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1fab23c12:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 12/2013 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a27d19512:49
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: sorry, I don't think Argentina is supported by the webshop yet, but I suggest mailing contact(AT)neo900.org and ask Nikolaus to manage the whole thing17:09
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: we don'z know yet if and for how much we can source the N900 mech parts. Should be less that 150EUR though17:10
DocScrutinizer05for 150EUR you get a "new" N900 any time17:11
DocScrutinizer05so we hope to keep the additional cost <150EUR, incl "mounting service"17:12
DocScrutinizer05I recently found a component source in Jemen or UAE or something, who claim they have e.g. the hard-to-source slider-mech incl FPC for 5.06$17:13
DocScrutinizer05when you can find this part at all in Europe or the like, it cost 8 times as much17:14
DocScrutinizer05recently we found a seller in GB who sells the main cam module for 11GBP, we had a source that asked for 50EUR plus shipping and VAT17:15
DocScrutinizer05this all is a terrible nightmare, sourcing wise17:16
DocScrutinizer05as most sources are scam or minimum available qty17:16
DocScrutinizer05only the cases seem abundance17:16
wpwrak_so you're still planning on offering completely assembled units ?17:16
DocScrutinizer05yes, we have to17:17
DocScrutinizer05the DIY doesn't fly17:17
wpwrak_and yes, i can imagine that sourcing must be a flaming PITA :)17:17
wpwrak_good :)17:17
DocScrutinizer05for the Jemen /Jordany(?) contact a user contacted me and asked how he can help, a week later he asked his next corner mobile phone shop dude who sayd he has a friend who does business in the millions with companies in UAE, Jordany, and pointed me to that supplier17:20
DocScrutinizer05and then I every now and then do really embarrassing oopsies like http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/#ic159717:23
DocScrutinizer05I'm so happy I'm not the only one looking into all that ;-)17:24
DocScrutinizer05> >Unfortunately the LED proposed has a common Anode but we need common Cathode for the LP5523.<<17:24
DocScrutinizer05that's what you get for doing 8+h on one topic17:25
DocScrutinizer05in the end you lose the overview while focusing on a single silly detail (like formfactor)17:26
DocScrutinizer05btw you won, finaly, at ~2100CET17:28
wpwrak_(oopsie) hehe, good catch :)17:32
wpwrak_(21:00 CET) excellent. i think i went out about two hours later ;-) (around 19 local time)17:33
wpwrak_(middle eastern contact) sounds interesting. maybe he also has a friend who knows some caliph who's tired of being spied on by the NSA and the chinese and wants to order a few neo900 for himself and his harem :)17:35
DocScrutinizer05actaully a goos idea :-)17:59
wpwrak_whitequark: by the way, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EFnftq3Fi818:03
wpwrak_i like the 2nd one. very classy :)18:03
whitequarkwpwrak_: hahaha that's priceless18:54
DocScrutinizer05what the heck does it transport?19:26
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: btw may I state that I feel honored by your interest in getting a Neo900 :-)19:36
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: (Argentina) I happily will do a donation in your name and forward the receipt and eventually the device to you, via whatever shipping you chose19:38
DocScrutinizer05or you do donation yourself, pick Switzerland or Germany, and moneytransfer, and my addr or even goldelico  ;-) as shipping addr. If money transfer is too expensive, transfer the money to my paypal and I'll forward it to goldelico official account19:41
DocScrutinizer05(and probably back to "my" Neo900 org account, in a few weeks ;-D  )19:42
kyakwpwrak_: you should come visit Russia and see a burning truck for yourself :)19:55
kyakyou have to set it on fire yourself, but that can be organized ;)19:56
Action: whitequark likes setting things on fire19:58
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: (honored) bah, it's the dream of openmoko finally come true. how could i possibly resist ? :)20:00
DocScrutinizer05:-) thanks!20:02
DocScrutinizer05could I talk you into helping a bit with porting kernel (and fremantle) to that platform?20:03
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: i can make a transfer from my .ch account, no problem. i think i'll ping sales@goldelico.com  (correct ?) to make sure none of the fancy country-dependent calculations (mis)fire20:04
wpwrak_phew, i have a bit of money but not all that much time ...20:04
DocScrutinizer05though contact at neo900.org also arrives at goldelico but also at Sebastian and me20:05
DocScrutinizer05(country-dependant calcs) not much of them apply. You simply "donate" the amount you plan to donate, you receive an invoice with a transaction number, you transfer the money according to instructions in that invoice, Nikolaus will adjust the amount in database according to the true amount of EUR arriving at our account20:18
DocScrutinizer05just make sure any transaction fee at your bank is paid by you 100%20:18
DocScrutinizer05and the money transfer is EUR, not CHF20:19
DocScrutinizer05this should already ensure that the true amount arriving at our account is exactly what you "donated" in the beginning20:20
wpwrak_yup, the transfer is no problem. just want to make sure it doesn't upset your processing or creates a tax liability on your end20:21
DocScrutinizer05the "destination" is just to make sure nobody "orders" to a country we don't know how to ship to 20:21
DocScrutinizer05and for CC check20:21
DocScrutinizer05(tax) we are liable for tax anyway, for donations20:21
DocScrutinizer05this will get re-evaluated for later shipping outside of EU20:22
DocScrutinizer05for donations no shipping of physical goods -> 19% VAT20:22
wpwrak_yeah, it's the VAT i'm concerned about. sent mail to "contacts". let's see what you come up with :)20:23
DocScrutinizer05VAT is a nobrainer for donations, since we *always* pay it20:24
wpwrak_oh, that's suckish20:24
DocScrutinizer05later on we can rollback when we actually ship a device20:24
wpwrak_ah, i see20:24
DocScrutinizer05so, VAT is largely irrelevant for the donations20:25
DocScrutinizer05just kicks in later for the *real* order20:25
DocScrutinizer05you donate 100EUR, you have a voucher worth 100EUR20:26
DocScrutinizer05don't worry about VAT20:26
DocScrutinizer05of course when you donate significantly more than 100EUR, VAT is even less of a concern even to paranoid donors20:27
wpwrak_btw, the N units each "10 EUR" is subtle ;-) i wonder how many rollbacks you get from people who accidently donate 1000 EUR ;-)20:27
DocScrutinizer05surprisingly little20:27
DocScrutinizer05prolly due to the fact that the total is mentioned in your chart20:28
wpwrak_so people do check. good :)20:30
wpwrak_hmm, my test equipment dealer seems to be on vacation :-( asked them if they have the rigol ds2072 (which can apparently be hacked to run at 200 MHz) in stock but no response :-(20:32
DocScrutinizer05btw I ordered 50mL of Galden goo21:03
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: how did you manage to have a swiss bank account? I always suspected you inherited millions from some relative ;-)21:05
DocScrutinizer05bank of raster with accounts in Singapore and God knows who, you with account in Switzerland. I feel like I failed to manage some essential things in my life the way they should get managed21:06
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: easy: before moving to argentina i lived in switzerland. i simply kept my old account :)21:07
DocScrutinizer05Though you were Austrian21:08
wpwrak_alas, that millionaire relative who could bestow a fortune upon me still hasn't shown up :)21:08
wpwrak_yes, i am. but born in switzerland and lived there all my life, until moving down south21:09
DocScrutinizer05Austrian born in Switzerland, hehe21:10
DocScrutinizer05btw you got mail21:11
wpwrak_checking ...21:12
wpwrak_must be snail-mail  :)21:12
wpwrak_very snail21:15
wpwrak_maybe glacial mail21:15
nicksydneyare there any hard and fast rule on what resistors to use for D+ and D- for USB ?21:17
nicksydneynotice for this schematics http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-leonardo-schematic_3b.pdf it is using 22R  while this one http://www.instructables.com/id/USB-Wii-Classic-Controller/?ALLSTEPS it is using 68R21:18
wpwrak_for kl25 it's 33 Ohm :)  (dsv klqr, page 99)21:21
nicksydneyso how do you derived this value ?21:21
nicksydneywhat is the criteria to decide what value resistor to use ?21:21
DocScrutinizer05WTF? is this already 6 years ago when I abandoned skype?? http://lists.mvlug.org/pipermail/mvlug/2008-July/000846.html21:22
wpwrak_i take whatever the reference design says ;-)21:22
nicksydneyi see so the reference design state that for anelok...that make sense...but what if the reference design does not specify how do we estimate it ?21:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: From: Joerg Reisenweber <reisenweber@gmx.net>  To: Werner Almesberger <werner@almesberger.net>21:23
DocScrutinizer05laintext emails21:23
Action: DocScrutinizer05 slaps self, than headdesks a little21:24
wpwrak_looks correct21:24
DocScrutinizer05maybe the glorious qi-bot could filter out TAHT?21:24
DocScrutinizer05(instead of publicly visible IP addr that are obsolete anyway when they show up in log)21:25
DocScrutinizer05or at very least obfuscate it21:26
wpwrak_at least in my case the spammers had something like 12+ years to catch my address. if one still hasn't found it that won't help them either :)21:26
DocScrutinizer05in my case that's a tad different21:26
DocScrutinizer05not my public addr21:26
wpwrak_ah well, now it is ;-)21:27
DocScrutinizer05well, it kinda always been, and it's reasonably well spam-filtered21:27
DocScrutinizer05prolly NSA does manual filtering on mails into Argentina ;-)21:29
DocScrutinizer05or almestberger.net doesn't like GMX21:30
wpwrak_i don't have any blacklists or such. just spamprobe at the very end. but that one didn't catch it either.21:49
DocScrutinizer05It arrived at CC (contact at neo900 org)21:50
DocScrutinizer05so GMX evidently sent it out21:50
wpwrak_nothing in my mail server log either. in fact, no gmx.net at all.21:51
wpwrak_well, any gmx.net except yours would be spam ;-)21:51
wpwrak_i don't know anyone else who uses gmx. it's a bit like myspace, something from a different era ;-)21:58
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty puzzling that there must be at least THREE "jörg reisenweber" in German language domain21:58
DocScrutinizer05but luckily I'm *usually* "joerg"21:59
DocScrutinizer05only genuine with the "oe"22:00
DocScrutinizer05(or when in context of openmoko, maemo, or neo900)22:00
DocScrutinizer05and definitely I'm no firefigther, nor photographer, model, or realted to farming and crop22:01
DocScrutinizer05yeah, you guessed it: googling my name (usual practice every 3 months, to catch stuff that's going on relating to me without me noticing)22:02
DocScrutinizer05(gmx) still alive, just fusioned with web.de and 1&1 into unitymedia or somesuch22:04
DocScrutinizer05and this pretty much made it inoperable, I'm lucky I don't need to configure anything anymore, probably the web interface to do that only works unde MSIE22:05
DocScrutinizer05JS infested ad nauseum22:06
DocScrutinizer05web3.0 ;-)22:06
wpwrak_you wouldn't believe it but there is even another "werner almesberger"22:12
nicksydneytwins ?22:13
wpwrak_naw, far from it :) the other one is 30 years older and into sports22:14
larscwho would give their twins the same surname?22:16
larsceh, first name22:16
nicksydneywe are living in a world where no 2 minds are the same :)22:17
DocScrutinizer05and probably also in a world where no two siblings share one first name22:18
wpwrak_larsc: well, wouldn't it be cute ? ;-) like dressing identical twins the same, etc. if parents keep that up long enough, it must have fascinating effects on their personality development. countless precious sessions for the shrinks ;-)22:18
DocScrutinizer05unless the parernts were really really nuts22:18
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: smart people are nuts ... check out einstein :)22:19
DocScrutinizer05they would need to treat the twins as one individual22:20
DocScrutinizer05"eat up your dishes, Tom!"22:20
DocScrutinizer05"don't beat yourself, Tom!" ;-P22:20
DocScrutinizer05(ambiguity intended)22:20
DocScrutinizer05"This is our son Tom, he's 2 times 6 years old"22:22
Action: DocScrutinizer05 could figure some bonehead parents doing similar stuff for siamese twins22:23
larscwell there is this one girl who has two heads22:24
DocScrutinizer05actually when do you start treating siamese twins as two individuals?22:24
larsceach of the heads had to do their own drivers license22:24
DocScrutinizer05would it count as driving without license when only one of the heads had a license?22:25
DocScrutinizer05the one head could claim the other head drove the car22:25
DocScrutinizer05larsc: that's.... mindboggling22:34
larscthere also seems to be one pair of conjoined twins who have two bodies but are conjoined at the head and share part of their brain and can read each others thoughts22:52
wpwrak_naturally born telepaths :)23:01
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