#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2013-12-29

DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/clouds-20131228.jpg tells me that there must be a number of mountains some 10..100km from you, and the wind is blowing from that mountain towards your location. And I *guess* those mountains are ~30° left from the direction of your snapshot main direction00:38
wpwrakhmm, you may drown in the atlantic while searching for these mountains ...00:41
DocScrutinizer05if the above is correct then I also can conclude that you probably have a weather tight now that's too warm and dry compared to average00:41
wpwrakah, left .. that would actually be land00:41
DocScrutinizer05well, the direction is a real guess00:41
DocScrutinizer05and the mountains could as well be 180° opposite direction, but the clouds suggest they are either in front and left or behind and right of that photo00:42
wpwrak(30 deg left) in that direction, there's for the next ~200 km the delta of the rio de la plata00:43
DocScrutinizer05unless that's all weird symmetrical atrifacts created by a lot of airplanes00:43
wpwrak180 deg ... that would be the coast or the atlantic ;-)00:43
wpwraknow, mountains ... how tall ?00:44
DocScrutinizer05those parallel cloud stripes are usually waves created by wind "jumping" over a mountain or cliff or sth00:44
DocScrutinizer05how high? a few hundred meters could already suffice00:45
DocScrutinizer05basically what you see as clouds are the turbulences created by that obstacle00:46
wpwrakhmm, 100 m or so may actually be possible. don't forget that buenos aires is on the edge of the pampa. it's very very flat out there :)00:46
DocScrutinizer05when you see those small parallel stripes00:46
wpwrakbut your idea may still be right, just different barriers00:46
wpwrakwe have: ocean vs. (big) river delta; water vs. land; open land vs. (large) city00:47
DocScrutinizer05get a meteosat cloud photo00:48
DocScrutinizer05should show where the turbulence starts00:48
wpwrakthe metropolitan area of buenos aires is some 30-40 x ~20 km, so it certainly affects the air patterns00:48
wpwrakah yes, that would have been an idea00:48
wpwraknow i can't see anything :-(00:48
DocScrutinizer05quite possible00:48
wpwrakhmm, looks like something forming over the atlantic. more front than circle00:51
wpwrakwell, that was IR. vapour looks completely different. some big chunk just hanging over the general area.00:52
wpwrakaah, show me pictures of snow :)00:54
DocScrutinizer05pictures of snow? watch the Austrian news!00:57
DocScrutinizer05http://www.wzforum.de/forum2/read.php?2,2280939,2281097  hmm, can't find the multiple cloud stripes01:04
DocScrutinizer05http://www.kerschhofer.net/wetterkunde-paragleiter/leewellen.gif  here you are01:07
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mittelgebirgsleewelle.de/allg/AATIS08/abb14 Kl.jpg01:22
wpwrakhmm, the big waves aren't so much what i was wondering about. more the small spots.01:39
wpwrakthe waves are probably air being pushed up by the warmth of the city01:40
wpwrakthe smoke have come from fires (of tires and such) people made in the street, as a form of protest against the power cuts. some have been without electricity and all that entails for ten days by now.01:48
wpwraka rather delightful argentine custom is to protest against the powers that be by making the lives of your neighbours miserable01:49
nicksydneywpwrak: got the HCL now reading up on how to etch it07:49
nicksydneywpwrak: still bit unsure about the amount to add for H2O2 and HCL07:49
wpwraknicksydney: about twice as much H2O2 as HCl. and don't make too much acid - it just needs to be high enough for the PCB to completely submerge. if your container has a nice flat bottom and it reasonably small, that will be just a few ml.12:32
DocScrutinizer05or you use a conveniently fitting-in-size and tighly seal'able plastic bag13:32
DocScrutinizer05of course you want to worl with this setup only over a sink like shower/bathtub, wearing rubber gloves and goggles13:33
DocScrutinizer05otherwise it's quite convenient for the small amount of etch liquid you need, as well as for "stirring" the whole thing13:34
DocScrutinizer05probably it's even a good idea to fill the bathtub/shower tub wit a 100mm high of water, so no spilled etch liquid gets in direct contact to the tub13:36
ysionneausometimes I feel like I'm on #chemistry13:37
DocScrutinizer05using hot water even makes for a convenient way to warm up the etch bag floating in it13:37
DocScrutinizer05make that 50mm, should suffice13:39
DocScrutinizer05or even 15mm if you're stingy with water13:40
DocScrutinizer05but then it cools down rather quickly13:40
DocScrutinizer05you get the idea13:40
nicksydneywpwrak: managed to etch anelok today...here are some photos13:42
wpwrak(bathtub) interesting idea13:46
wpwrakbut if you work work reasonably convenient containers the spill risk is basically zero13:46
wpwrakplus, you can seal them after use so you get to keep your acid13:46
nicksydneywpwrak:  http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg13:48
nicksydneywpwrak: http://ctrlv.in/27673213:48
nicksydneytested with 2 dummy board before i etch anelok and now the H2O2 is almost finished :)...but still lots of HCL13:49
nicksydneyboy the HCL is strong stuff i pour probably 5-10ml and i can see bubbles forming straight away and eating away on the copper13:50
nicksydneyi used latex gloves as it's my first time was worried about spilling it to my hand..and most of the time i keep distance from myself when opening the HCL or H2O2 :)13:51
nicksydneywhat you think of the etch result ?13:51
wpwrakthe picture is loading ...14:00
wpwrakdo you have a continuity tester ? (multimeter or such) in general the board looks pretty neat. but some traces look suspicious. could be broken.14:01
wpwrak(gloves) yes, definitely a good idea. i always wear gloves with working with that sort of stuff.14:02
wpwrakthe board material is FR2 (pertinax) ? the color suggests it is. that would be a very poor quality material (easily develops mechanical problems). with FR4 (epoxy) you get much better results.14:03
nicksydney(tester)...just used multimeter and most of the traces does connect 14:06
nicksydneylet me check what is the board..it is a single sided board14:06
nicksydneythis is the board that i used http://www.ebay.com/itm/181179118937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l264914:07
nicksydneyit says "FR4 Copper Clad Circuit Board Single Side PCB."14:07
wpwrakokay, if it's FR4 then that's good. they picked a strange color for it.14:11
nicksydneyhow can you tell between FR4 and FR2 ?14:12
nicksydneyi was reading about  Hydrogen Peroxide and i read that H2O2 is a bleach .. so does this mean that normal household bleach can be used with HCL ?14:12
wpwrakyou can tell by cutting into it with a dremel. the dust tastes different. but it's kinda hard to describe :-)14:13
nicksydneywpwrak: ohh don't tell me i have to taste the dust...yuck :)14:14
whitequarkwpwrak: (the dust tastes different) hahahaha14:16
wpwrak(bleach) i wouldn't try mixing unknown chemicals with a potent acid :) also, many bleaches are chlorine-based, so that's a different process. the peroxide acts as oxidizer.14:16
wpwrak(dust) well, as you cut into the board, the dust finds its way into your respiratory system kinda on its own :)14:16
whitequark*nod* it's just the sort of thing a seasoned engineer would tell a newbie one almost like a joke14:17
whitequarkthe image of you telling that to someone with a completely serious face cracks me up14:17
nicksydneytomorrow will do the bottom part and will try to solder some parts that i've got14:19
nicksydneynot sure what i have but hopefully the OLED that i've stocked up does fit .. didn't get a chance to check the stock taht i have :)14:20
nicksydneythe thrilled of having your first PCB etched is undescribeable !14:20
nicksydneyit's like losing virginity :)14:20
wpwraknicksydney: these are the main traces that look a little suspicious: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nick-q-traces.jpg14:21
nicksydneywpwrak: let me check with DMM for those traces14:21
wpwrakcould of course be just be harmless discoloration. your picture it quite blurry, so it's hard to tell14:21
wpwrak(thrill) hehe ;-)) and it's even a fairly complex one14:22
nicksydney(traces) all those ones that you marked does connect ... it looks bit thinner than other traces though14:24
nicksydneywould it be better if i apply solder to all the copper traces like how you did yours ?14:25
wpwrakyes, applying solder is a good idea. that way, the copper is protected from corrosion14:25
nicksydneyok cool...so lots of flux and solder ?14:26
wpwrakyes, heat the iron well (you want 300 C, maybe a bit more). apply flux generously, then put a few small drops of solder on the PCB.14:28
wpwrakthen distribute the solder with the side of the tip of the iron (to you move it parallel to the board)14:28
wpwrakwhat you want is a very very thin coating. as thin as you can get.14:29
wpwrakrisks: if you stay too long in an area or the iron "catches" on a trace and you're a bit too rough, you may shear traces off the board. that sort of damage is often fatal for the board. but since this is a test board anyway, you can experiment without fear14:30
nicksydneywpwrak: will give it a go and see how it goes...ok time for me to hit the bed...and thanks for the tip...see you tomorrow14:31
wpwrakanother risk: of you get too much solder in one spot if can be hard to get rid of it again. a thick coat will make it hard to solder components since they will be on that "hill" and it'll be hard to hold them in place14:32
wpwraksweet dreams of copper oxidizing while you sleep :)14:32
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: is your design meant to show mirrored writing on the PCB?14:42
DocScrutinizer05would scare the hell outa me14:43
DocScrutinizer05http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg  hmm prolly not14:45
DocScrutinizer05I guess nicksydney has a problem: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg14:45
DocScrutinizer05not that this never happened to me ;-)14:46
DocScrutinizer05actaully seems it just happened this very moment, in my brain14:47
DocScrutinizer05dunno why my brain decided to mirror the writing on http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg14:48
DocScrutinizer05for some weird reason il looks like mirrored to me14:48
DocScrutinizer05but it isn't. sorry for the noise14:48
DocScrutinizer05http://ctrlv.in/276732 is dead14:49
wpwrak(mirrored) i was just wondering ;-))14:50
DocScrutinizer05yeah, reading mirrored writing is so natural to me that sometimes I don't even notice, or like here just think it's mirrored when in fact it isn't, or the other way round14:52
DocScrutinizer05and the indentation and huge CC-BY-CA vs small anelok plus the kinda weird fontset tricked my brain14:53
DocScrutinizer05suÝddPe ‡1#es14:55
DocScrutinizer05I'd anyway prefer scans of the PCB to those photos14:56
DocScrutinizer05they are almost as poor quality as mine usually are ;-)14:56
DocScrutinizer05quite brave to try and spot bad traces in them 14:57
DocScrutinizer05s/them/it, since only one picture works14:58
wpwraki was about to suggest that nick get himself a decent camera :)14:58
DocScrutinizer052^8 btw#14:58
wpwrakwhohooo !!! http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg14:59
DocScrutinizer05well, it's just a random arbitrary number, not really relevant for the project14:59
DocScrutinizer05just feels comfy for digital minds15:00
DocScrutinizer05the procedure with using a plastic bag for etching has the major advantage of needing exceptionally small amounts of etching liquid, particularly due to good coverage and "stirring"15:02
DocScrutinizer05you howeve must make sure to not "cover" parts of the PCB by plastic bag touching PCB surface15:03
DocScrutinizer05constant pushing around the liquid in the bag however reliably avoids this as well as some other problems15:04
DocScrutinizer05almost as good as a vertical cuvette with bubble stirring15:05
wpwrakyeah, i would be concerned about covering the pcb. and also about holes in the bag.15:07
DocScrutinizer05^^^ maybe explains where from this nasty Fe(iii)Cl 15:12
DocScrutinizer05for foam etching it's first choice15:12
DocScrutinizer05MEGA-8-Q ??? http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Datei:2BoardsFullyEtched.png .oO(???)15:15
DocScrutinizer05haha, just learned a new word: Baubeschrieb15:23
DocScrutinizer05those Swissmen15:24
DocScrutinizer05^^^ "Ätzmittel" has a decent explanation about how hydrochloric acis + H2O2 works and how to mix the etching liquid15:31
DocScrutinizer05particularly: >>Sollten übermässig Bläschen aufsteigen, deutet dies auf einen H2O2-Überschuss hin, der zum Abbruch des Prozesses führt und der durch Hinzufügen von verdünnter Salzsäure wieder in Gang gebracht werden kann.<<15:31
DocScrutinizer05nice picture of cuvette: http://funkenflug.net78.net/aetzen/IMG_0786.jpg15:44
DocScrutinizer05http://www.reichelt.de/Aetzgeraete-Belichter/-TZGER-T-1/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=23418&GROUPID=3376&artnr=%C3%84TZGER%C3%84T+1   :-D ->http://www.reichelt.de/Aetzgeraete-Belichter/-TZGER-T-S1/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=50260&GROUPID=3376&artnr=%C3%84TZGER%C3%84T+S115:48
Action: wpwrak_ hates brown-outs16:03
DocScrutinizer05nice read: http://www.reichelt.de/index.html?&ACTION=7&LA=3&OPEN=0&INDEX=0&FILENAME=C900%252FAETZGERT_S1.pdf16:03
wpwrak_dead battery :-(16:04
DocScrutinizer05that been a pretty short browout?16:04
DocScrutinizer05or did you miss more than ~30s 16:05
DocScrutinizer05actually here it looks like 10s16:05
wpwrak_yeah. UPS said "beep !", PC went down, fluke reset (this one is always the most fragile item)16:05
wpwrak_my internet gateway pc made it through it without reset. else i have to wait about an hours before it's willing to power on again.16:06
DocScrutinizer05the Reichelt etching stuff looks pretty convenient, also for "spare" parts16:06
wpwrak_looks a bit over-engineered16:06
wpwrak_etching isn't the difficult part of making pcbs :)16:06
DocScrutinizer05cuvette small + tap16:07
DocScrutinizer05actually no, it not the difficult part. But getting it right is significantly more demanding than just etching away 50% of your structures16:08
DocScrutinizer05rule of thumb: the faster your etching, the more you damage the fine traces16:09
wpwrak_sure. but it's essentially the step that always works, even if you're sloppy. well, at least with a bit of routine and the right acid.16:10
wpwrak_and yes, high-speed etching doesn't work ;-)16:10
wpwrak_here's an example of what happens if you get too confident: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/rush-job.jpg16:11
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless I just ponder whether using electrolitic techniques might give you some benefits in that step. E.G. tiny holes/cracks in the resist (whatever toner or photopositive) would maybe get sealed by gas that can't escape16:11
wpwrak_i actually have one that was even worse. a large but simple board with thick traces. there, the acid started to boil :)16:12
wpwrak_tiny cracks seem to slow down the acid enough that it can't make it through the trace. what you get then are these discolored spots. so for the average DIY board, that's still quite okay16:13
DocScrutinizer05obviously you had to do the last few µm of etching in a non-electrolytic way anyway16:15
DocScrutinizer05since eventually you get isolated isles which is the whole purpose of the process16:16
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, that would stop etchin for those traces that are already isolated from the gdn fill pattern16:17
DocScrutinizer05damn! Ground16:17
DocScrutinizer05so you could etch away for good all exposed and connected to GND-fill copper, and 10min after last such copper connected to the GND-fill got electrolytically removed, you can stop the process and start chemical etching of the remnants16:19
DocScrutinizer05which should finish pretty fast then, without endangering your fine traces16:20
wpwrak_phew. more over-engineering ;-) just acid and a little flat-bottomed glass container works fine. no need to invent solutions for problems that don't exist :)16:34
DocScrutinizer05pah, what a curious spirit is TAHT?16:51
DocScrutinizer05whole world is just a collection of problems16:51
DocScrutinizer05with this mindset you would eat your beef raw, since what's the problem that makes you discover fire as a useful tool16:52
dos1hacking microcontrollers on SD cards :D17:22
JewFro297That's pretty awesome17:24
JewFro297dos1: http://haxit.blogspot.ch/2013/08/hacking-transcend-wifi-sd-cards.html17:50
dos1JewFro297: omg these exploits are hilarious! :D17:58
JewFro297I know, it makes me want to ride the nop sled17:59
nicksydneymorning....it's a beautiful day....2 days before 2014 :)21:28
nicksydneywpwrak_: can you give me suggestion what is the best way to work with anelok now that i have top and bottom part on separate board ? ... what's the best way to try it out ?21:38
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: looking at neo900 donation chart...perhaps need more PR noise to attract attention ?21:41
nicksydneywpwrak_: i was thinking last time about transferring heat for toner transfer.....perhaps one of this sandwich presser could help....http://doxz7msmg7sxx.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/7/image/592x333/c2f10b1d8f5a5ddacfb442b817d0e244/1/_/1_896.jpg 21:47
dos1DocScrutinizer05: reading some forum thread about firmware update Samsung released for eMMC in some Android phones...21:48
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: I can't think of any possible helpful noise we didn't already create21:48
dos1guys from xda-developers reverse engineered the update protocol21:49
dos1and analyzed the update for what exactly it changes21:49
DocScrutinizer05dos1: mhm21:49
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: just thinking out loud..what about paper media ? 21:49
DocScrutinizer05dos1: I think the update protocol (fastboot) is public21:50
nicksydneyyup fastboot is public21:50
dos1DocScrutinizer05: no no no, I mean eMMC chip21:50
dos1internal firmware21:50
dos1wear leveling and stuff21:50
DocScrutinizer05sorry, you lost me21:50
dos1they had a very nasty bug bricking some devices21:51
DocScrutinizer05you say they update the eMMc controller firmware?21:51
dos1seems like wear-leveler was mistakenly overwriting the firmware itself21:51
DocScrutinizer05now THAT is something quite intriguing and new21:51
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: perhaps you must have discussed this already..but what about crowdfunding site ? perhaps that could help 21:51
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I know that CyanogenMod devs sidestepped the issue by not sending eMMC a full erase command21:51
dos1just realized that it's really obvious case of exactly what you were saying regarding FSF policy21:52
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: but I never heard about the official fix though21:52
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites21:52
dos1Samsung published fix that was patching RAM at each emmc init21:53
DocScrutinizer05dos1: HEHEHE indeed21:53
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: that reply wasn't for me21:53
dos1after patching it was reading it back to confirm that it went ok21:53
dos1so this Oranav guy REd reading it to dump whole firmware21:54
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: sorry?21:54
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: maybe get Google's attention :)21:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: 21:52 < DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites21:55
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: aah21:55
dos1they patched out one function call to point to new function, which was just calling the old one, checking its return value and if it's 0, then it goes into infinite loop21:55
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney:  we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites21:55
dos1so eMMC on Samsung Galaxy Note II is now definitely user upgradable21:56
whitequarkoh, that's Note II. I was talking about SGSIII (IIRC)21:56
whitequarkit's likely they have the same bug though21:57
dos1Samsung Galaxy Note II GT-N7100, N7105 > Galaxy Note II, Galaxy S III Developer Discussion [Developers Only] > eMMC sudden death research21:57
whitequarkquick google query confirms sgs3 suffers from same issue21:57
dos1I just copied name from the begining of forum name, haven't noticed the later part :D21:58
dos1and I'm not really up to date with all those android devices21:58
dos1my interest faded away somewhere around HTC Dream :P21:58
wpwrak_nicksydney: (board) two separate boards are nearly useless :) you could try to make them overlap and tie them together with vias, but i have no idea how well that would work :)21:59
wpwrak_nicksydney: in any case, i'd recommend making a custom design for your experiments. don't try to make an anelok clone but something simpler. the anelok design will change anyway, so there's little value in making a clone22:00
wpwrak_(sandwich press) no idea :) i would suspect it to be too uneven (since your sandwiches don't care about whether they're off by 0.1 mm somewhere) and maybe it wouldn't even close completely. but maybe you could get it to work by putting the pcb on a piece of wood or such. dunno.22:02
nicksydneywpwrak_: looks like need to "stretch" anelok into 1 layer and work from there22:05
wpwrak_or enter the beautiful new world of making double-sided pcbs :)22:07
wpwrak_btw, your photos tend to be quite blurry. smartphone cams usually aren't so good at these things. DocScrutinizer05 and i recently had a discussion about that.22:08
whitequarksandwich press? laminators are usually thought to be ideal for the task22:09
nicksydneywpwrak_: will take some picture and post it22:09
wpwrak_if you plan on making photos of such things often and still have some favours left from santa, you may want to look for one of the "upper middle class" canon cameras. e.g., the ELPH 330 HS aka IXUS 255 HS may be fairly good (macro range is as short as 1 cm) and isn't very expensive.22:10
wpwrak_whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :)22:11
DocScrutinizer05dos1: the xda-forum URL gives me http://privatepaste.com/a74bd4f1a822:12
dos1 /usr/lib64/IcedTeaPlugin.so ?22:13
nicksydneywpwrak_: need to borrow wife's 100D :)22:14
nicksydneywpwrak_: favors from Santa is gone...all that is left are pocket changes for parts :)22:15
DocScrutinizer05yeah, just started wondering as well22:15
dos1DocScrutinizer05: that's java plugin22:16
DocScrutinizer05well, maybe I should disable java22:17
DocScrutinizer05but doesn't seem like this was the culprit22:17
wpwrak_nicksydney: 100D ... okay, that's a decent enough piece of equipment ;-)22:17
nicksydneywpwrak_: so need to be nice to here otherwise only phone cam i have :)22:19
wpwrak_you may already taxing her patience with all the chemicals you're bringing home lately. these things tend to have a really low WAF ;-) (Woman Acceptance Factor)22:22
nicksydneywpwrak_: yeah...that's why need to be very very nice 22:28
whitequarkguess why wpwrak_ is single :p22:29
nicksydneywhitequark: it's a tough job being a husband ..hahaha22:30
DocScrutinizer05[2013-12-29 23:11:19] <wpwrak_> whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :)22:32
DocScrutinizer05wow, what a opposite take than regarding thinking about new ways to etch stuff22:33
whitequarkI knew you would be quick to notice that22:33
wpwrak_whitequark: indeed. and i hide the nasty bit (preferably in friendly-looking colorful boxes) when women are visiting :)22:33
nicksydneywpwrak_: guess this is one of those nasty bits http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg  eh :)22:34
whitequarkwpwrak_: an alternative approach, safer for your life, is to use that as a selection process22:34
whitequarkwhy would I want to talk to people scared by the mere sight of HCl?22:34
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: i just think that if it worked great, someone may have mentioned it. a sandwich iron (well, if that kind of device exists in your area) should be easier to put to use than first modding a laminator22:35
wpwrak_whitequark: because those that go "oh cool, lemme have a sip !" usually aren't around to talk to ? :)22:36
wpwrak_(cheers) naw, that's just a friendly exaggeration ;-)22:36
wpwrak_it was a bit of a rush job, though, because the neo900 folks broke their barrier a bit too quick for my freezer to cool the glass properly22:37
whitequarkwpwrak_: modding a laminator? no modding required, they work out of the box22:37
whitequarkthe rolls (or how are they called) are flexible enough to accomodate for a typical pcb thickness... 1-1.2mm for sure22:38
whitequarkor elastic enough. they're covered in some kind of heat-resistant rubber.22:38
nicksydneyone thing i can say that i've tried and nobody has tried before is using the 'butt' of a hot teflon ... it works slightly worse than iron :)22:38
whitequarkyou mean frying pan?22:39
wpwrak_the smoke cloud i mentioned earlier: this is what it seems to have come from: http://cdn01.ib.infobae.com/adjuntos/162/imagenes/010/525/0010525285.jpg22:40
nicksydneywhitequark:  yeah 22:40
whitequarka cast iron one would probably work better. more stable t° and convenient pressure22:40
whitequarkwpwrak_: is that some sort of pagan dance?22:40
wpwrak_(the building in the background is the one with the "barrel" roof)22:40
nicksydneywpwrak_: seems like people having fun near the fire thre ?22:40
wpwrak_naw, people who have been without electricity and possible without water (because of no power = no pumps) for the last 2-10 days. they think it's a good idea to block streets, burn tires, and such.22:41
whitequarklet's overthrow the government, sure that would bring more order in our lives22:42
wpwrak_whitequark: (laminator) a few do. most don't. one common issue is that there's not enough heat transfer. so you have to either slow the motor or (for the adventurous) increase the heat. another issue is that sometimes there are obstacles in the paper path that won't let a pcb through.22:42
wpwrak_(cast iron) yeah, more thermal capacity. also, less likely to bend from use. some pans do get a little out of shape with time.22:44
whitequarkmore likely to cause permanent brain damage, though22:44
wpwrak_whitequark: oh, i'm sure it would. argentina did this in 2001 and after a week of chaos, things calmed down and then the "emergency president" (just for one year) fixed a lot of things22:45
wpwrak_alas, the guy he placed as his successsor (still democratically elected) did not quite so well, and when (after 4 years) he was succeeded by his wife, things really went downhill22:46
whitequarkwpwrak_: then why aren't you on the street? :p22:46
whitequarkyou guys should have a revolution every two years or so. keep those fuckers in check.22:47
wpwrak_whitequark: waiting for more useful protests :) i did go to the ones protesting against the government corrupting the institutions22:47
wpwrak_well, one every 6 years or so may be sufficient22:48
whitequarkI wonder what would actually happen if the protests here were a little more successful22:48
wpwrak_(demonstrations) about a million people in the street in buenos aires alone. http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1524741-cacerolazo-8n22:51
DocScrutinizer05dos1: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2096045 doesn't load any meaningful content in FF either, when rejecting cookies22:54
dos1hah, sucks22:54
wpwrak_whitequark: another interesting photo: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1528829-el-8n-y-el-20n-las-dos-postales-del-obelisco23:03
wpwrak_whitequark: the left side is the demo from above. the right side is when the unions called for a strike against the government. there you can also see the size of that street.23:04
wpwrak_whitequark: all that was last year. this year there were mid-term elections, where the government technically did well (gained some seats) but fell short of its expectations (among other things, they hoped to have a 2/3 majority so that they could change the constitution to their likin)23:05
whitequarkwait, that actually happened two years ago?!23:08
wpwrak_about one year ago23:09
wpwrak_(fish-eye) looks like a nice event, too. what was it about ?23:09
whitequarkvotes stolen at election 23:10
wpwrak_bah, bonsai-peanuts23:10
whitequarkthe whole deal kinda succeeded ultimately, the last presedential election was won narrowly but legitimately23:10
whitequarkif you take that as success23:10
whitequarkso you're left with the bottom line: most of russia is actually fine with putin23:11
wpwrak_he seems to have a fairly positive image in the world. being a bit of an asshole kinda goes with the territory.23:13
whitequarkin the world?23:15
whitequarkaccording to DocScrutinizer05 europe has a rather sober view23:15
wpwrak_okay, maybe not all of that makes it all the way here :)23:16
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