#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-12-26

whitequarkokay, bought the 3020T05:47
whitequarkthe problem is that it's slightly above customs limits... I feel like they're going to fuck me plenty05:47
wpwrak_make a video and make $$$ on porntube ;-)05:50
whitequarkthat would likely be the most long and boring porn movie ever produced05:53
whitequarkwell. I hope that my mail forwarder is going to take care of it themselves (and charge me a small fortune, of course)05:54
whitequarkthat still beats dealing with customs by myself at any time of day. I've heard several horror stories05:54
wpwrak_love that concept of the "mail forwarders" ;-)05:54
whitequarkyou don't have them?05:55
wpwrak_we have postal mail and courier all the way into the country05:56
wpwrak_if customs decide to screw you, they do it on any path you choose05:57
wpwrak_except if you have someone smuggle it, of course05:57
whitequarkwell, this mail forwarder seems to do it legally, or at least doesn't bribe people too blatantly05:57
whitequarkcustoms still want to screw *me*, but those guys have an army of lawyers trained for that or something05:58
whitequarkand there is probably some kind of legal loophole which allows them to clear my packages05:58
Action: whitequark shrugs05:58
whitequarkwow. I06:03
whitequarkI'm watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv2mEQS7awE06:03
whitequarkit has voice in german, yet google can show readable subtitles in english06:03
whitequarkit truly evolved into skynet06:03
whitequarkah, they're written manually. nevermind :)06:05
kyakwell, automatic captions have been there since 200906:07
kyakand it works pretty well in some cases06:07
kyakespecially when a speaker's articulation is good06:08
kyaki use it sometimes (via plugin in chrome) to automate subtitle creation06:08
whitequarkhis reflow setup is quite ingenious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KU3grl6Nu2U#t=16506:17
DocScrutinizer05kyak: the prolem is it has a talent to create reasonably sounding subtitles that are total bullshit08:18
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_158083&feature=iv&src_vid=b9FC9fAlfQE&v=jSZbkR9vNzI&noredirect=1 should give you some more ideas for your 302009:04
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: that's really interesting09:22
DocScrutinizer05thought it might interest you :)09:22
whitequarkI was going to try milling stencils instead (the raw material, brass lists, is really cheap)09:23
whitequarkbut I'm not sure if that would work actually09:23
DocScrutinizer05a set of two electromagnetic valves and a pressure regulator for pressurized air should do to push out a constant amount of paste per time from a syringe09:24
DocScrutinizer05forget about creating stencils with a mill, won't pan out09:24
DocScrutinizer05you need laser cutting or etching to do stencils09:25
whitequarksuspected it09:25
whitequarketching... could probably try that09:25
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: random idea: exposing the resist with a powerful UV led and an optic fiber with a CNC machine09:26
whitequarkI'm not sure what could it give you though09:26
DocScrutinizer05existing technique09:28
whitequarkwhat's it used for?09:30
DocScrutinizer05well, I can't recall details but I've seen exactly this moving light source technique getting used somewhere09:31
DocScrutinizer05probably in pre-laser times, maybe somewhere related to offset printing or sth09:32
whitequarkI see09:33
DocScrutinizer05or really in professional PCB production09:33
whitequarkalso, his magnetic clamps are awesome09:34
whitequarkeven though duct tape would work too :p09:34
DocScrutinizer05guess why I said the word "magnet" at least 50 times during last 4 weeks in this channel ;-)09:36
whitequark$ curl -s http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12.txt | grep DocScrutinizer | grep magnet -c09:37
whitequark2109:37
DocScrutinizer05hehe09:37
whitequarkbut that's pretty close09:37
DocScrutinizer05I actually suggested to wpwrak_ to fix his acrylic case with magnets. I thought of exactly the scenario in this video when doing so09:40
whitequarkthe USB2LPT guy made a makeshift scaffold for that purpose using scrap PCBs and superglue09:40
whitequarkwell, similar purpose09:41
DocScrutinizer05for the ultimate smartass DIY reflow soldering I ponder to get some fluid to cook on my stove ;-)09:47
whitequarkfluid?09:47
DocScrutinizer05you basically can't do anything wrong when using vapor phase reflow09:47
whitequarkoooooh that's really interesting09:48
DocScrutinizer05use a 5L pot, pour in some 100ccm of 255°C reflow fluid, cook, throw in PCBA for 30s09:49
whitequarkpot? a pressure cooker maybe?09:50
DocScrutinizer05no09:50
whitequarkI guess you'd need it to be airtight09:50
DocScrutinizer05a simple pot09:50
whitequarkwon't the fluid escape?09:50
whitequarkoh, right, that's the goal09:50
whitequarkif it doesn't escape it doesn't regulate t°09:50
DocScrutinizer05well, when you cook it too violently it will evaporate and escape the pot, yeah09:50
DocScrutinizer05but usually it shall condensate on the lid you put on the pot09:51
DocScrutinizer05pretty much like usual water does09:51
whitequarkor you could take a fluid with a slightly higher boiling t° (but still within AMR of the components) so you can't overheat it09:51
whitequarkbut the fluid doesn't escape09:51
DocScrutinizer05it is just "water that boils at 250°"09:51
DocScrutinizer05maybe use a steel bowl with water in it as lid for the pot09:53
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://www.dow.com/heattrans/products/synthetic/dowtherm.htm ?09:55
whitequarkit's even developed for exact that purpose, heat transfer09:55
DocScrutinizer05http://www.smta.org/chapters/files/Arizona-Sonora_IBL_SMTA_AZ_Expo_2012Dec4.pdf09:55
whitequarkyes yes, reading that pdf09:55
DocScrutinizer05HS23509:56
DocScrutinizer05Perfluorpolyether09:57
DocScrutinizer05the show "Galden" brand09:57
DocScrutinizer05they*09:57
DocScrutinizer05http://www.daitokutech.com/products/galden/data/Saftydatasheet Galden HS235.pdf09:58
DocScrutinizer05http://www.solvayplastics.com/sites/solvayplastics/EN/specialty_polymers/Fluorinated_Fluids/Pages/Galden_PFPE.aspx09:59
whitequarkyou think you can source it?10:01
DocScrutinizer05dunno10:02
DocScrutinizer05I bet I can get 1L from wuerth, via Nikolaus10:02
DocScrutinizer05when he next time visits them10:02
DocScrutinizer05or was it global components?10:03
DocScrutinizer05our PCB soldering fab has quite a few cans of that stuff, I bet10:03
DocScrutinizer05ok, HS235 seems not modern anymore, so use HS24010:04
whitequarkhttp://hackaday.com/2010/10/15/vapor-phase-reflow-soldering/10:04
DocScrutinizer05HAH!10:05
whitequarkhttp://www.ibrtses.com/projects/vapourphasesoldering.html10:05
whitequarkyeah he uses HT23010:05
Action: whitequark shudders while looking at a stainless steel tray in close proximity to two live uninsulated wires10:08
DocScrutinizer05yeah, a weird guy, and particularly I'd have used a simple waterheater10:14
DocScrutinizer05there are even some that come with glass10:14
DocScrutinizer05though usually they are stainless steel10:14
whitequarkgo lower budget: just use an electric kettle10:14
DocScrutinizer05~15 bucks at the store of your choice10:14
whitequarkor did you mean just that? https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkjgw2lx2SKxgwaAQumIrFBRVhUu-YUifHeYvBKoUoMJlKn4Opgg10:15
DocScrutinizer05kinda, yes10:15
DocScrutinizer05you need to rework those a little, since they have a thermofuse that cuts out at 130°C10:15
DocScrutinizer05place a 200°C switch at *top* of the whole thing, it cuts out when vapor rwches the level of the switch10:16
DocScrutinizer05reaches*10:16
DocScrutinizer05when you wanna go fancy, you get a dimmer for the heating and slowly turn it down while thermoswitch at top of pot is engaged and turn it up when switch is too cold10:17
whitequarkI've a spare PID controller lying here10:18
DocScrutinizer05then place some sort of heatsing on the pot for vapor to condensate there10:18
DocScrutinizer05PID, *great* :-D10:18
DocScrutinizer05heatsink*10:18
whitequarkTIL: "tombstoning" and "popcorning" :D :D10:19
DocScrutinizer05TIL?10:19
whitequark"The customer had severe problems with tombstoning"10:19
whitequarktoday I learned10:19
DocScrutinizer05hehe10:19
whitequarkhm, this actually looks kinda simpler than an oven for reflow, which I wanted to make once10:20
DocScrutinizer05btw you could use silicon isolation for the wires, I'm rather sure it has no problems with either temperature nor the liquid10:20
whitequarkand for sure this is more reliable10:21
DocScrutinizer05(simpler) and WAAAAY better results I bet10:21
whitequarkunfortunately there's basically no way for me to get the liquid10:21
whitequarkit's classified as ozone depleting substance and prohibited from mailing10:22
DocScrutinizer05convection reflow oven is a bitch to build and to operate10:22
DocScrutinizer05DAMN!10:22
whitequarkhonestly I doubt customs here will give a fuck, they're much more interested in iphones than of 1L of some obscure goo10:22
whitequarkbut in the country of origin that might happen10:23
DocScrutinizer05I bet#10:23
whitequarkI'll probably ask you to send me some quantity of it when the rest of the toys arrive here10:23
DocScrutinizer05hmm, depends where that country of origin is. When it's china, then no problems anticipated10:23
whitequarkchina would also be a way, yes10:24
DocScrutinizer05Oh, I don't have any10:24
whitequarkwell, you said you can get some :p10:24
DocScrutinizer05I said I guess I could get some10:24
DocScrutinizer05eventually10:24
whitequarksure10:24
DocScrutinizer05when prodding Nikolaus10:24
whitequarkI'm in no hurry10:24
DocScrutinizer05but actually that is maybe something I should do10:25
DocScrutinizer05just to boost the fame of Golden Delicious and myself ;-P10:25
whitequarkhehe10:25
DocScrutinizer05and it actually might come in handy10:25
DocScrutinizer05well, 200 bucks for 500ml10:27
DocScrutinizer05I thik it might be worth it10:27
whitequarkworth a try10:27
whitequarkwhere'd you get that price from?10:27
DocScrutinizer05err 10010:28
DocScrutinizer05from http://www.ibrtses.com.nyud.net/projects/vapourphasesoldering.html10:28
DocScrutinizer05>>Here I use Galden HT 230 with a boiling point of 230 degrees Celsius. For comparison, leaded solder melts at 188 degrees and leadfree solder melts at 220 degrees. This stuff is rather pricey, in the order of 100$ US per kilogram, which is about half a liter. <<10:29
DocScrutinizer05common mishap I do: apply normalization twice10:29
DocScrutinizer05so 100bucks/L become 200bucks/500mL10:30
DocScrutinizer05err10:30
DocScrutinizer05so 100bucks/kg become 200bucks/500mL10:30
DocScrutinizer05see what I meant?10:30
whitequarkyeah10:31
whitequarkthese guys sell it in single bottles: http://www.pchemlabs.com/product.asp?pid=508110:31
whitequark$1200/7kg, uh... yeah, pricey.10:32
DocScrutinizer05hah, thought I might be right with the 200 anyway ;-P10:32
DocScrutinizer05ooh, that's a different product10:33
whitequarkHT-230 not HS-230, yes10:33
whitequarkbut it seems to have similar properties10:33
whitequark>>Galden HT-230 sold here by the 7 kg (15.4 lbs) containers is used for applications with component immersion, wafer etching, ion implantation, radar equipment, transformers, power supplies, UF6 production, chillers, cooling towers, and freeze dryers.10:33
whitequark>radar equipment... UF6 production...10:33
whitequarkyou'd probably end up on some list buying that10:33
DocScrutinizer05http://forum.mikrokopter.de/topic-post324253.html#post32425310:36
whitequarkhttp://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altering-the-paste-mask-for-correct-paste-coverage-on-large-pads/msg191308/?PHPSESSID=9f509da40ca29ca40cb033585f42a163#msg19130810:44
whitequark>10:44
whitequarkA vapor phase machine is basically a turkey fryer with a cooling ring around the top.10:44
whitequarkhehe10:44
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/10:47
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: alternative fluids: http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=14752&#Message6173010:47
whitequarkoh you just found it too10:47
DocScrutinizer05http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/engineered-liquids/fluorinert-fc-70/10:51
DocScrutinizer05215°C10:51
DocScrutinizer05>>10:52
DocScrutinizer05The saturated vapor generated from boiling Fluorinert liquid FC-70 is very dense and easily contained. The fluid is typically used with solders like 63 Sn/37 Pb, 60 Sn/40 Pb, or 62 Sn/36 Pb/2 Ag. FC-70 liquid can be used in a variety of vapor phase reflow soldering applications, including:10:52
DocScrutinizer05BGA attach10:52
whitequarkyeah, 215 would be for leaded, not lead-free10:53
whitequarkthough I say fuck lead-free anyway10:53
DocScrutinizer05yep10:53
whitequarktoo much hassle for prototypes10:53
DocScrutinizer05the problem is you can't mix lead free with leaded, really10:53
DocScrutinizer05though I forgot why10:53
DocScrutinizer05read it a week or two ago, somewhere10:54
whitequarkthat vapour-phase soldering pdf you posted, had a bullet point that you could mix leaded and lead-free with VPS10:54
DocScrutinizer05while reading about VP 10:54
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I also think it might be worth a try ;-D10:54
DocScrutinizer05yeah, actually 235 was the compromise temp for mixed leadfree and lead production, not requiring to swap liquid of your VP reflow machine10:56
whitequarkfluorinert seems to be equally hard to obtain...10:58
DocScrutinizer05same substance10:58
whitequarkthis seems to have 3/4 gal bottles with MOQ=1 http://www.amsmaterials.com/products/Fluorinert-FC%252d70.html10:58
whitequarkbut "call to order"10:58
whitequarkhm, interesting, it's not actually described as ozone depleting anywhere10:59
whitequarkso perhaps it's possible to send it via mail after all... it's really inert (duh!) otherwise11:00
whitequark>http://hamptonresearch.com/product_detail.aspx?sid=185&pid=3211:00
whitequark$108/100ml, wow11:00
whitequarkalso from there: "Ozone depletion potential: 0 " so that's encouraging11:01
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I gathered it's ozone neutral11:02
DocScrutinizer05otherwise we couldn't use it the way it's used in German reflow fabs11:02
whitequarkhm, this http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/engineered-liquids/ sends directly to canadian customers11:03
whitequarkif by customer they mean private person then I know a guy who could probably resend the parcel wherever it's needed11:03
DocScrutinizer05it's always a question where to look for a substance. As a random example I found a barrel with ~30kg natrium cyanide in a galvanic lab that been closed. Try to get 1g of that substance! ;-P11:06
whitequarkuh oh11:06
DocScrutinizer05same with stuff like KMnO411:08
DocScrutinizer05I found a barrel with a convenient remnant of maybe 500g alu powder at a printing company's junkjard11:09
DocScrutinizer05prolly used as pigment for a special printing color11:10
DocScrutinizer05I been mainly interested in the steel barrels and had an unpleasant "incident" when opening them at home11:11
DocScrutinizer05this alu powder stuff is impossible to clean, once it got out of the flask err barrel11:11
whitequarkI hope you didn't drop the barrel... imagine if it made a spark :p11:11
DocScrutinizer05we just called it the silver pest11:12
DocScrutinizer05had another barrel with gold pigments, prolly brass11:12
DocScrutinizer05we called that the gold pest which been even worse11:13
DocScrutinizer05my flatmates cursed me11:14
DocScrutinizer05I had to promise to never again open any of those barrels ;-P11:14
DocScrutinizer05but with a cloth over it, it made a nice little table11:15
whitequarkhah11:15
DocScrutinizer05alas I never had a chance to do some of my weird destructive chemical experiments with the substances in those11:16
DocScrutinizer05I however guess the alu must have been passivated on its surface, otherwise it should detonate the barrel when you shake it11:18
DocScrutinizer05wouldn't defeat adding it to some blackpower 11:18
whitequarkalu would be always passivated in air11:18
DocScrutinizer05well, yeah, and during that it tends to catch fire11:19
DocScrutinizer05;-)11:19
whitequarkonly if the surface area/volume rate is high enough11:19
DocScrutinizer05when fine enough11:19
DocScrutinizer05which this stuff *definitely* was11:19
DocScrutinizer05thus i think it must have been passivated11:19
DocScrutinizer05otherwise it would've been too dangerous11:20
DocScrutinizer05but any passivation is moot when next dust particle is an oxidizer ;-)11:20
DocScrutinizer05blackpower alike mixtures containing metal dust are the strongest composite explosives afaik. Definitely they are forbidden for crackers in germany, since those crackers would be too strong11:22
whitequarkyou could also disperse it in air and ignite11:23
DocScrutinizer05well, except mixture of liquid oxigen with a hydrocarbon liquid11:23
whitequarkif you manage to get it in air evenly in a room, you could manage to collapse the building11:23
DocScrutinizer05or replace liquid oxygen by tetranitromethane11:23
whitequarkinstantaneous reduction of volume by 20% tends to do that11:24
DocScrutinizer05you can do same with flour ;-)11:24
whitequarkwas going to say that11:24
DocScrutinizer05well known ,ill explosions11:24
DocScrutinizer05mill*11:24
DocScrutinizer05or coal, in mines11:25
whitequarksee also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast11:25
whitequark45% hexogen, 30% TNT, 20% Al powder11:25
DocScrutinizer05I prefer mixtures of oxygen and acetylene ;-)11:25
DocScrutinizer05over flour11:26
whitequarkwhat gives?11:26
DocScrutinizer05easily obtainable from welding device, easily filled into bags or balloons11:26
DocScrutinizer05gives quite a BOOM11:27
DocScrutinizer05toldya my experiments are often a tad weird ;-D11:27
whitequarkwho doesn't like exploding stuff?11:28
whitequarkexcept OSHA11:28
whitequarkbut those guys are who's weird11:28
DocScrutinizer05most annoying problem always been grinding the substances. KMnO4 is incredibly hard11:30
DocScrutinizer05even ruined a coffee mill 11:31
whitequarkmaybe you could dissolve and reprecipitate it11:31
whitequarkwith the right parameters you could get a fine powder as the output11:31
DocScrutinizer05just pondered about it11:31
DocScrutinizer05on the alu powder: it been fluffy like power sugar and when you tolted the barrel it started to flow almost like a liquid11:35
DocScrutinizer05tilted*11:35
DocScrutinizer05pretty weird stuff11:36
DocScrutinizer05oh yeah, and iirc there actually been some warning signs on the barrel11:37
DocScrutinizer05(this been like 30 years ago)11:37
whitequarkdidn't that ring any bells? :p11:38
DocScrutinizer05sure, that's why I took those barrels with me :-)11:38
DocScrutinizer05well, and because the barrels themselves were kinda cool11:38
DocScrutinizer05and were sitting next to the litter container11:39
DocScrutinizer05really that stuff been terribly sticky11:41
DocScrutinizer05no matter what you put in to the power, you pulled it out completely covered by silver11:42
DocScrutinizer05which been impossible to remove completely11:42
whitequarkhttp://xkcd.com/242/11:45
DocScrutinizer05LOL http://homescience.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/how-to-make-aluminum-powder/11:49
DocScrutinizer05yeah @ xkcd11:51
DocScrutinizer05my friend calls me "Mr Feynman"11:52
DocScrutinizer05http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surely_You're_Joking,_Mr._Feynman!11:53
DocScrutinizer05aah, better procedure to grind alu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaF0i0qLyuI&noredirect=111:59
wpwrak_(magnet) i don't like them so much. also because they can mess up things in their vicinity. e.g., credit cards.12:22
whitequarkif you still use magnetic stripe cards in 2013, you deserve that12:23
whitequarkhuh, 3020T is shipped already. quick.12:29
DocScrutinizer05WOW12:52
DocScrutinizer05btw I found some awesome "electronics for bloody noobs, creating stuff that really works": http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/schematic.htm12:53
DocScrutinizer05the design is a tad... simplistic (e.g. has no true PID you'd expect to find in a proper design), but it really explains stuff12:54
DocScrutinizer05look at this: http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/infraredemitter.htm12:54
DocScrutinizer05though it seems to miss some drawings or info boxes. The question "How do you calculate the resistor in advance?" seems is never answered?12:59
DocScrutinizer05LOL @ ""First, a little disclaimer, and a plea for help. I don't know why, but adding this circuit made my levitator stable."" http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/phaselead.htm13:01
DocScrutinizer05you're adding the differential part of the mandatory PID regulator, fool! ;-)13:02
DocScrutinizer05thus compensating for the inertia of your levitating object13:02
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: LOL the schematic is faaaaaar too complex13:12
whitequarkI've did exactly that thing with literally: 1 hall effect sensor, 1 operating amplifier used in comparator mode, 1 power transistor, 1 electromagnet13:12
whitequarka few resistors also13:12
whitequarkthat's all.13:12
whitequarktalking about their levitator13:12
DocScrutinizer05well, you get a bouncy ball this way13:13
whitequarkbouncy ball?13:13
DocScrutinizer05but it may work13:13
DocScrutinizer05object oscillating up and down13:13
whitequarknaw it doesn't noticeably oscillate13:14
DocScrutinizer05then I wonder how it works at all13:14
whitequarkkey word "noticeably". you could feel the vibration if you keep it by hand, but not visually13:14
DocScrutinizer05aaah, that's pretty good then13:14
DocScrutinizer05you're basically combining PWM with a very tight digital feedback loop13:15
whitequarkI think it was an active Hall effect sensor... you'd supply it with 5V and in steady state it would output precisely 2.513:15
whitequarkthen you'd compare its output pin with a tap on a 1:1 resistor divider. it's that simple.13:16
DocScrutinizer05yeah, in such design even noise might introduce benefits to the design13:16
whitequarkthe system is catastrophically unstable outside of a local optimum though13:16
DocScrutinizer05actually doing a random dithering of the digital output13:17
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's the problem with such design, it has extremely narrow operation point13:17
DocScrutinizer05window rather13:17
DocScrutinizer05and no way to recover13:17
whitequarkthe simplicity is impressive though13:18
DocScrutinizer05yep :-D13:18
DocScrutinizer05you can do same with a laser for the light barrier13:18
whitequarkhall sensors are way easier to operate. just superglue it to the electromagnet13:19
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty difficult to start up such a system though13:19
DocScrutinizer05ugh WHAT? a hall sensor???13:19
whitequarkhall effect sensor yeah13:19
whitequarkor how do you call it in english?13:20
DocScrutinizer05how the heck is it detecting the position of your levitating object?13:20
whitequarkthe object has a neodymum magnet attached at the top13:20
DocScrutinizer05I wasn't attentive reading what you wrote13:20
DocScrutinizer05yeah, but the heck the hall sensor will get massive interference of the own electromagnet13:21
DocScrutinizer05now TAHT is a pretty weird design13:21
whitequarkapparently it doesn't prevent it from working :p13:21
DocScrutinizer05nah, it just increases complexity of the design by factor 10013:22
DocScrutinizer05hard to tell what actually happens13:22
whitequarkhm, someone just emailed me about Galden13:22
DocScrutinizer05depends on exact position of hall sensor wrt to e-magnet, polarity of hall sensor, polarity of e-magnet13:23
whitequarkdid you ask anyone or something?13:23
DocScrutinizer05basically you built an oscillator that doesn't need any moving object to oscillate13:23
DocScrutinizer05me? nope13:24
whitequarkme neither13:24
DocScrutinizer05somebody lurking in here13:24
whitequarkI guess so13:24
DocScrutinizer05or you are already googleized 100%13:25
DocScrutinizer05so the webshops don't even need to ask for your email addr anymore and simply send a mail when you visit the website13:25
DocScrutinizer05;-P13:26
DocScrutinizer05I thought we had another 5..10 years until our world transformed into this nightmare13:26
whitequarkgoogle "real-time bidding"13:26
DocScrutinizer05no I won't, unless I get TOR installed13:27
DocScrutinizer05;-P13:27
whitequarkno seriously, that makes 1984 look mild in comparison13:27
DocScrutinizer05and even that doesn't help13:27
whitequarkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_bidding13:27
whitequark"Let's explain with a simple real time example: a user heads to a page on a website (the "publisher"), causing it to start loading. In the same instant the website ("publisher") sends out a bid request to thousands of potential advertisers saying, Weve got this user who is 30, Indian, male and based in New Jersey, US, and recently searched for return air tickets to Delhi, opening a page on our site. How much are you willing to bi13:28
whitequarkthey're literally selling you on auction, several dozen times a second13:28
DocScrutinizer05OMG13:34
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, seems to depend on cookies (so far)13:35
DocScrutinizer05I have cookie policy set to "always ask"13:35
whitequarkthat is bloody annoying though13:35
DocScrutinizer05and I honestly hate sites that try to place 3532 cookies13:35
DocScrutinizer05yes, it actually is bloody friggin annoying13:36
DocScrutinizer05I'd appreciate a small icon in webbrowser telling me "this site tried to place 3433 cookies which I all rejected" and I could click on this icon to see what been the cookies and deliberately accept one or some or all of them, for this time or permanently. On which occasion the browser automatically should reload the page with the updated cookie policy13:37
DocScrutinizer05I probably should patent this concept13:38
whitequarklike for popups, yeah13:38
whitequarksomeone probably made this already as a firefox addon13:38
whitequarkgrr, java14:59
whitequarkwhat is the value of having a memory-safe language if you need a native library to access a goddamn serial port15:01
whitequarkand the very second I load this native library it segfaults...15:02
whitequarkgrr, lead-free solder: when it's easier to tear the socket from PCB than to disconnect the plug from it15:44
whitequarkactually, no, this is just some Molex contraption which is seemingly designed to be one use only15:46
wpwrak_whitequark: DocScrutinizer05 will be so envious ;-)16:36
DocScrutinizer05hm?16:37
wpwrak_because you have a molex connector that resists all attempt to remove it from the board :)16:37
DocScrutinizer05yeah16:38
DocScrutinizer05well, I could it make come off, but only at the expense of destroying the PCB16:38
wpwrak_"will it blend" ? ;-)16:40
DocScrutinizer05well, that shady component sourcer turned out to seem pretty promising16:41
DocScrutinizer05so just *maybe* our molex headache soon will vanish16:41
DocScrutinizer05unless we want to build more than 130k devices16:42
DocScrutinizer05and I dare to say: 130k? screw that Nokia N900 display16:43
DocScrutinizer05netcomponents.com that is16:45
whitequarkwpwrak_: nonono, I meant that literally16:45
whitequarkI tore it off the PCB16:45
whitequarkeven after that (!) I couldn't figure out how does one disconnect it without completely destroying the plastic16:45
DocScrutinizer05as expected it lists suppliers that have no own online shop/catalog at all16:45
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: sometimes it's tricky to open those critters16:46
DocScrutinizer05sometimes actually impossible16:46
DocScrutinizer05but usually just hard to find the way to 2break" it without rendering it dysfunctional16:47
DocScrutinizer05often it needs drilling holes or cutting slizes or breaking off parts of one of the components to allow separation16:48
DocScrutinizer05even more frequently it just needs brute force inserting a sharp screwdriver at the right point to open up the latches16:49
DocScrutinizer05of course also semi-destructive process16:50
DocScrutinizer05I hardly even seen a design where function critical parts are involved in a lock that can't get opened without breaking those parts - like contact springs that latch up or sth16:51
DocScrutinizer05usually it's just the usual triangular plastic latches hidden inside the receptacle16:52
whitequarkthey also managed to place it in close proximity to two other easily damaged plastic components16:52
whitequarkfour actually, two other sockets, a buzzer and a jumper16:52
whitequarkso soldering it back was one hell of a job16:52
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a pretty crappy design16:52
whitequarkosPID16:52
whitequarkhttp://ospid.com/16:52
whitequarkit's supposedly hackable. yeah.16:53
whitequarkthe controlling software is also horrible, in the best traditions of vendor-supplied sw16:53
whitequarksome shit written in arduino-like java-based environment (processing) which is hardly possible to get up without it segfaulting16:53
whitequarkit works after all though16:54
DocScrutinizer05what is that laser? http://www.ospid.com/blog/ospid-used-in-the-toorcamp-laser/16:55
whitequarkno clue16:56
DocScrutinizer05friggin awesome blue lazor16:56
DocScrutinizer05>> Its built with twenty-four 1 Watt lasers taken from a Casio DLP projector.<<17:00
DocScrutinizer05so about 800 bucks17:00
DocScrutinizer05http://hackaday.com/2012/08/16/toorcamp-hackerbot-labs-giant-faa-approved-laser/17:02
DocScrutinizer05excellent unrelated comment: >>3) Redundancy theater is easy, while real redundancy is extremely hard. It turns out to be exceptionally easy to build a redundant system that just creates a new and different single point failure. Now, that can be an appropriate solution, if and only if the new single point failure is one that you are aware of and is much, much more reliable than where you moved it from. But its much easier 17:09
DocScrutinizer05to just delude yourself into thinking youve built a redundant system, and self-delusion is the mother of all engineering failures.<<17:09
whitequarknoticed it too17:13
DocScrutinizer05ROTFL @ We controlled a 12kW laser using a PIC16F886&.  --- quite the british comment I think serves best to original rant17:13
whitequarktbh I don't see any problem with that. PIC fails, laser burns a hole through whatever it's pointing to (you should prepare for that anyway) and/or explodes (same)17:14
whitequarkthere's about 1000 factors which could lead to either result even if the uC is intact17:16
DocScrutinizer05yes17:24
DocScrutinizer05that's why I enjoyed that comment17:24
DocScrutinizer05also you usually build that stuff in a way so "simple" failures always cause shutdown17:25
Action: whitequark nods17:26
DocScrutinizer05e.g. PWM gets triggered by edge and causes a constant amount of energy released. No matter what error pattern the controller freaks out, it usually won't deliver higher frequency to the controlling signal17:26
wpwrak_(netcomponents.com) oh, great. when do you expect to get that reel ?17:27
DocScrutinizer05next year17:27
DocScrutinizer05we hope to get that real (SIC!)17:27
wpwrak_well, that's a relatively easy prognosis :)17:27
DocScrutinizer05we will contact suppliers next year January17:28
DocScrutinizer05they exist and are in Germany17:28
DocScrutinizer05\o/17:28
wpwrak_china hangs it collective head in shame17:29
DocScrutinizer05and updated that netcomponents entry a mere 5 days ago or somesuch17:29
DocScrutinizer05so I guess they simply have a surplus of some 130k or whatever and want to get rif of it17:30
DocScrutinizer05rid even17:30
DocScrutinizer05they are not interested in selling to the unwashed masses via an own outlet, running own helpdesk and whatnot17:31
DocScrutinizer05thus they send such offers to netcomponents.com or the like17:32
DocScrutinizer05which makes for a convenient net presence for their selling17:32
DocScrutinizer05at least that's my uneducated take on it so far17:33
wpwrak_neat. so that was a good place to find.17:33
DocScrutinizer05after all 130k of a 8ct component... :-/17:33
DocScrutinizer05not worth the hassle17:33
wpwrak_how many will you buy :)17:34
DocScrutinizer05not 130k ;-P17:34
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: talking about pyrophoric metal powders: http://homechemistry.blogspot.ru/2008/03/hand-warmers.html17:35
DocScrutinizer05hehe17:36
wpwrak_you could buy them all, make a site 5000246491.com and sell them with some 500% margin to all the desperate souls who want to fix old n900 :)17:36
DocScrutinizer05dafaq, frowards me to adobe flash17:36
DocScrutinizer05F U whoever you are!17:36
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: that component hardly ever breaks on a N90017:37
wpwrak_ah, pity17:38
wpwrak_so much about establishing a one-click monopoly17:38
DocScrutinizer05I'm still staggered at that LED of size 1.0*0.5*0.3mm17:42
DocScrutinizer05"lens" 1.0*0.3 sideways17:42
DocScrutinizer05it's even half the size of those http://play.qwazix.com/shared/_DSC5011.JPG17:43
DocScrutinizer05http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/#ic159017:46
DocScrutinizer05dang! does any of you hackers have a standard solution to run multiple identical I2C chips on one bus? (problem: address)17:52
whitequarkgate the clock ?17:52
DocScrutinizer05hmm, feasible, yes17:53
wpwrak_they often have a one bit address selection input17:53
DocScrutinizer05\o/17:54
whitequarksometimes more than one, even17:55
whitequarkbut I assumed that was checked :)17:55
DocScrutinizer05ASEL0, ASEL1 \o/17:55
DocScrutinizer05LP552317:55
wpwrak_LOTS of address bits to play with :)17:56
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/26/plasma-desktopRV3389.png17:57
DocScrutinizer05yeah, more addr than needed17:57
DocScrutinizer05OMG http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/26/plasma-desktopbt3389.png18:00
DocScrutinizer05;-P18:00
DocScrutinizer05seems it's time for a break and dinner18:04
wpwrak_Nation Security Council, NSA's evil twin ? ;-)18:05
DocScrutinizer05national semi corp?18:06
wpwrak_probably just a cover :)18:07
DocScrutinizer05oh, indeed doesn't show in my pics it#s NS18:07
DocScrutinizer05or does it?18:07
wpwrak_national.com18:08
DocScrutinizer05www.national.com might gibe it away18:08
DocScrutinizer05give*18:08
wpwrak_of course, that can be anything, right ? a mean, NSA is national, too. and of course they're also concerned with commercial issues18:09
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and I bet NS doesn't exist anymore18:09
DocScrutinizer05redirects to TI ;-P18:10
DocScrutinizer05which now has http://www.ti.com/product/lp5523 conveniently publicly available18:11
wpwrak_hehe :)18:12
DocScrutinizer05at 0.85USD@1k18:12
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak_: that's why I said "OMG! ;-P"18:13
wpwrak_doesn'18:13
wpwrak_t seem overly pricy18:13
wpwrak_hmm, accuweather.com have a special symbol for when it really gets hot. instead of a sun, they show a thermometer.i guess the 38 C of the last days weren't enough18:14
DocScrutinizer05yeah, so I guess we can afford to have 3 of them instead of just one18:15
DocScrutinizer05LOL18:15
DocScrutinizer05dunno what's your local rating on ambient temperatures18:15
DocScrutinizer05I'd prefer them to the weather around here anyway18:16
DocScrutinizer05dang, still waiting for a single donation today18:17
DocScrutinizer05could become the second day without anything happening, in Neo900 history18:17
wpwrak_and indeed, these days are by a good margin the hottest of the entire year. january peaks were around 36 and 37, but then only for a day or two. this time we seem to have an entire week with peaks 37-38 every day. let's see if it makes 40 :)18:18
Action: DocScrutinizer05 feels like visiting wpwrak_ and asking for a proper BBQ18:18
wpwrak_normally the maximum temperature should be around 30 +/- 218:19
wpwrak_we were struggling with it on the 2418:19
wpwrak_because it was so hot, we ate much less than expected18:20
DocScrutinizer05as long as the deviation from average doesn't cause worse effects like they see them in USA and Canada these days18:20
wpwrak_we get that, too. and there's a thunderstorm predicted for today. but apparently it won't be able to lower the temperatures. i'm curious how that might work18:21
DocScrutinizer05eeew18:21
DocScrutinizer05sounds nasty18:21
wpwrak_last night was a tad unpleasant: minimum temperature was 25 C ...18:21
DocScrutinizer05well, when you go offline, we know what's up18:21
DocScrutinizer05you got your Yamaha PSU meanwhile?18:22
DocScrutinizer05seems to be a nice little critter18:22
wpwrak_well, time to go to the post office and see if the book they told me they tried to deliver after sitting on it for a month can actually be picked up ...18:23
DocScrutinizer05o.O18:23
DocScrutinizer05what's the use of sitting on a book? ;-P18:23
DocScrutinizer05also, do you still want THAT book?18:23
DocScrutinizer05actually given the RGB LEDs are ~1.00EUR /1 and the white LEDs are 1.85, and we got 6 of them for kbd backlight, the RGB solution is cheaper than the monochrome one18:28
DocScrutinizer05nah, I used different qty to calculate18:35
DocScrutinizer05actually they seem to be same price18:35
DocScrutinizer05RGB 1.6ct cheaper than white18:36
wpwrak_(psu) naw, i still hope i won't need to do that. so far, i've been lucky - other parts of the city have been without electricity for some 5-6 days19:01
wpwrak_we had some cuts just the weekend before the big collapse. maybe they fixed something that helps us now19:02
DocScrutinizer05one thing's for sure: you won't be able to get such a device when there's urgent demand for it19:28
DocScrutinizer05that's actually the reason why I would get one myself when I had the money to play with19:28
larscanybody at the c3?19:28
DocScrutinizer05too far, too expensive, too exhausting19:29
DocScrutinizer05could easily burn a 500 bucks for those 3 days19:29
DocScrutinizer05plus I got annoying stuff to sort at home19:30
larscit is definitly one of the cheaper conferences19:31
wpwrak_phew. "practical cryptography" has safely passed into my physical possession. also got a good look at our streets without power. one block away, several shops have generators on the sidewalk.19:46
wpwrak_and of course, that truck-sized generator a few blocks further down the avenue it still there.19:47
wpwrak_DocScrutinizer05: my hope is that demand will be low enough during january (holiday season) for things not to get worse. and then the average temperatures will already be a little bit lower19:48
wpwrak_another fun event: because of the heat, some piranha-like tropical fish went a lot further south than usual and attacked people taking a bath in a river not very far from buenos aires20:08
whitequarkhttp://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/testicle-eating-ball-cutter-fish-could-heading-225114020:11
whitequarkthis one?20:12
wpwrak_apparently this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomfret20:28
wpwrak_http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1650794-aseguran-que-la-invasion-de-palometas-fue-inusual-y-motivada-por-el-extremo-calor20:30
wpwrak_if you click on the small picture you get more and better ones20:30
wpwrak_so i guess they're all from about the same gang. grim look and plenty of teeth.20:31
DocScrutinizer05hehehehehehehehe20:46
kristianpauli plan be on c3 for 2014, finances are getting better 21:05
nicksydneywpwrak_: what's new ?21:37
nicksydneyanybody got any new 'toys' from Santa this year :)21:39
wpwrak_i got me a book on cryptography. make it harder to detect the embarrassing mistakes i'll certainly make in anelok :)22:14
nicksydneyyikes !22:15
nicksydneythought you going to crypto your brain :)22:15
nicksydneyso nobody can poke into it22:16
nicksydney:)22:16
nicksydneydo you have picture of the board with the cell coin holder ? i'm studying the schematics and having a hard time understanding the GND and + point from the battery :)22:16
nicksydneyi can only pic of anelok with casing that is running on battery but nothing bare 22:17
nicksydneyi like the stripped version :)22:17
wpwrak_lemme see ...22:21
wpwrak_this one: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/case-bot-clip.jpg22:24
wpwrak_it's just a strip of metal. not very reliable. but the best i can do at the moment22:25
nicksydneythanks..let me check22:27
nicksydneycool...that helped...i was wondering how the GND plane works..now i understand why you have all the different polygons filled...so those filled polygons is what kicad is called "copper pour" ?22:30
wpwrak_i don't really have a ground plane. i just try to have as much ground as possible. for a proper ground plane i would need a four-layer board22:36
nicksydneyso what is the correct teminology to use for anelok..is it to call it GND points or contacts something like that ?22:41
wpwrak_depends on what you're talking about :) in the case of the battery, "contact" sounds good22:46
nicksydneycool...it's easier for my brain :)22:49
nicksydneynotice also that you have vias on the schematics...in most of anelok's photos i can't see any hole drilled in via's places ?22:50
nicksydneyor am i missing something ?22:50
wpwrak_i can't plate holes. so what i make non-plated holes and put a wire through them. that wire is soldered on both sides and then trimmed. so vias are those little "tents"22:52
nicksydneylooks like need to find out what is this "tent" vias23:01
nicksydneyahh..now i understand .. http://www.pcbuniverse.com/pcbu-tech-tips.php?a=523:08
nicksydneytented via is just a via that is 'closed'23:08
nicksydneyso in anelok case the 'tented via' is not a hole but when etched it will be like a contact point23:09
wpwrak_it is a hole. but there's a wire inside. "tented" vias are still plated. but yes, they look a bit like what i have.23:11
--- Fri Dec 27 201300:00

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