#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-12-19

DocScrutinizer05hey, whren you're all happy with fped and kicad, doesn't any of you have a surplus eagle license.txt file for me, that enables 16layer PCB multi-sheet-schematics layout and routing ?00:29
DocScrutinizer05tracing down the stuff with gdb/strace to patch out the limitations seems annoying ;-) And right ATM I'm still not earning any money with eagle, so can't afford the 1800 bucks00:32
wpwrak16 layers ? a lot of power and ground planes ?00:34
wpwrak(1.8 kbucks) spend 1.8k, still have almost 50k. or had nikolaus made off to south america with the booty ? ;-)00:36
rohDocScrutinizer05: when its for the neo900, just write cadsoft an email00:40
rohmaybe you get some license for the project. i know some people who did, or atleast a big number off the full licence00:40
rohi know the ccc bought a full eagle licence with 50 seats, but that one is usually fully booked/used00:41
rohDocScrutinizer05: hm.. i see it for 1385¬ atm... full 1 seat licence?00:46
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's probably without autorouter or sth. would probably suffice01:18
DocScrutinizer05I dunno why but HNS is doing the autorouting with a program he wrote himself01:20
rohDocScrutinizer05: nope.. full with everything01:21
rohhttp://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/#eur01:21
wpwrakautorouting. eek :)01:23
DocScrutinizer05weird, last time I checked that been ~180001:23
wpwrakxmas discount :)01:23
DocScrutinizer05prolly VAT01:25
DocScrutinizer05click on "German" upper right and you get Layout+Schaltplan+Autorouter¬164801:25
DocScrutinizer05taking you to http://www.cadsoft.de/01:25
rohhrhr.. vat... you get that back anyhow as 'commercial' entity01:31
DocScrutinizer05well, for now I'm no commercial entity, otherwise I'd simply but that stuff and not worry about a 1600EUR01:37
DocScrutinizer05buy*01:37
DocScrutinizer05OTOH maybe that's the solution to this as well as some other problems01:38
rohsure. elsewise you pay shitloads of taxes01:38
DocScrutinizer05I should resurrect my company01:38
DocScrutinizer05and then just send an invoice to GolDeliCo01:39
rohor let them buy it, or just a seat on their license01:39
DocScrutinizer05HNS rejected that01:39
rohi see.. much too easy01:40
rohs/much/way01:40
DocScrutinizer05anybody a hint regarding founding something like a GmbH or UG? Particularly I'd need somebody who knows doing the whole commercial/accounting crap01:43
DocScrutinizer05time to sort out the papers this neo900 project is based on. Sure we should've done that beforehand, but then Neo900 never had happened01:45
rohgismo did that. i think it simply costs money and time.01:50
DocScrutinizer05it needs knowhow01:50
rohthe money mostly because you need somebody with a clue of accounting and paperwork01:50
DocScrutinizer05I'd add VAT with other taxes and divide it by Pi01:51
DocScrutinizer05exactly01:51
DocScrutinizer05and no clue where to find such an expert, or even how's the name of such experts01:52
rohi dont even do my freelancer paper stuff myself. its worth outsorceing that01:52
roh'steuerberater' mostly01:52
DocScrutinizer05well, for such stuff you got "Steuerberater"01:52
DocScrutinizer05not suited for doing a company clerk01:52
rohand they do book-keeping stuff also for money. just push em the papers01:53
DocScrutinizer05they do?01:53
rohsure, you need to write invoices and move money around yourself, but they can do the paperwork which is the evil followup.01:53
DocScrutinizer05cool, I might just have a talk to one of those guys01:53
DocScrutinizer05first of all I need a bank account that's exclusively for the company01:54
rohsome even do the 'here is a moving box full of unopened letters from the last 8 years, i get audited!'-services (costs extra) ;)01:54
DocScrutinizer05sure, but what I'd need is more than some steuerberater doing the paperwork for me01:55
DocScrutinizer05I need somebody handling the stuff01:55
DocScrutinizer05and coming up with ideas on *how* to handle it01:55
rohgo to your local ihk, they have (usually for free) info material about funding a company/accounts.. etc... including a 'step by step' how works what01:55
DocScrutinizer05ooh, brilliant! thanks a lot!01:55
DocScrutinizer05will do01:55
rohi mean.. thats what these guys are paid for anyhow ;)01:56
rohi should have done that. i was even too stupid to get some state funding for 'existenzgruender'... thus payd my health insurance myself from the first day01:56
DocScrutinizer05that's what I pondered for the last 2 weeks01:57
DocScrutinizer05since that's exactly my major problem right now01:57
rohthere is some scheme, atleast there was where you only paid part of that for the first 2 years or so01:57
DocScrutinizer05:nod:01:58
DocScrutinizer05seems I should give my "Arbeitsagentur" a visit01:58
rohi guess you'll need a businessplan for that, but its mostly a lyrical description of your plans01:58
rohthat could help as well. these guys really like initiative. gives them the feeling of doing something sane for a change ;)01:59
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I wonder how much it would help to point them to neo900.org01:59
rohsince you already got a project you have atleast the bonus of not having to find something first!11! ;)02:00
DocScrutinizer05or if they will istantly freeze my support and call the police02:00
rohnah.. just be careful about what you say02:00
DocScrutinizer05those guys always seem to do the most acerbating thing for their client's plans02:01
DocScrutinizer05s/acerbating/detrimental/02:02
Action: whitequark bought some of that press-n-peel toner transfer thingy05:06
whitequarklet's see how it fares again plain toner transfer and photoresist05:06
paul_boddieDocScrutinizer05: About the Molex connector, what are the "mated stacking heights"? I only ask because that connector is 0.05mm different from another on DigiKey in that respect.13:56
DocScrutinizer05yes, molex suggested that 1.0mm as alternative, but it's not compatible13:57
paul_boddieOf course, with FFCs - which I guess this is all about - that could make all the difference. Stupid FFCs!13:57
DocScrutinizer05AIUI13:57
DocScrutinizer05the problem is we got the one side (let's say male) fixed, we need to find a matching "female" conector13:58
DocScrutinizer05molex today answered they don't have stock and don't know of any of their customers to have stock13:58
DocScrutinizer05and they seem not willing to produce one reel for us13:58
paul_boddieLovely schematic! Even the fonts seem to be done using a plotter.13:59
DocScrutinizer05yeah, the fonts are abysmal, and I don't like the schematics style14:00
DocScrutinizer05if you talk about the GTA04 14:01
paul_boddieBut H. Shimabukuro went to a lot of effort! :-)14:01
paul_boddie(I was looking at the Molex schematic.)14:03
DocScrutinizer05ooh14:05
DocScrutinizer05Eagle fonts in schematics are worst I ever seen14:05
paul_boddieDifficult to make stuff out on these things unless you have experience, I guess.14:05
paul_boddieNow that I'm looking at one from JAE, I start to appreciate the Molex one. ;-)14:05
wpwrakthe nasty bit are drawings that don't specify all the dimensions14:08
wpwrakor those that have sets without common points of reference14:09
paul_boddieIs this the 1.0mm alternative...? http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/502426-6410/WM24076-ND/198757114:14
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: can you replace (rework) the one on the FPC ?14:19
DocScrutinizer05hardly14:21
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: I haven't checked14:22
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: it's glued14:22
DocScrutinizer05tried to unsolder one with hot air. broke14:22
DocScrutinizer05and we can't ask customers to do that, even when they were not glued14:22
wpwrakwell, you could ship them with the board14:30
wpwrakbut glue sucks14:31
DocScrutinizer05ship what with the board?14:35
wpwrakyes, if you can figure out a way to rework them, you can sell them to people who a) have an n900 they want to recycle but b) don't feel up to doing the rework themselves14:37
wpwrakof course, at a cost14:37
DocScrutinizer05them=what?14:38
wpwrakthat fpc assembly, with a replacement connector (if you can't get the original, which seems increasingly likely)14:39
wpwraknot great but better than nothing. well, if you can find a way to defeat the glue. that may be tricky.14:40
DocScrutinizer05we would need to produce a FPC then with another maybe equally hard to source LCD connector, and a definitely hard to source other few parts, like front camera and ALS and proximity and whatnot else14:43
wpwrakah, i was thinking of buying the ones you can get on ebay and reworking it. always assuming you can still find a way to do this despite the glue14:44
DocScrutinizer05and we would have to tell customers that they need to disassemble their display half, rip off the FPC and glue on a new one. Not exactly a simple process, Nokia care spoiled it on my N900 when they did a FPC repair14:45
DocScrutinizer05we rather get the connectors custom made for 10000EUR/1000qty14:46
DocScrutinizer05there are companies to offer such service14:46
wpwrakoh, good14:46
DocScrutinizer05well, a bit less horridly expensive would be even better14:47
DocScrutinizer05but it's still cheaper than rework of existing FPC or building new ones14:48
DocScrutinizer05and more convenient to customers, too14:48
wpwrakyeah, it's a good plan B14:48
wpwrakit's also good that you contacted molex. if they know that you're looking for these connectors, maybe they'll keep a (passive) search running.14:50
DocScrutinizer05lickily we're almost at 250 devices already, so the connector is only 40EUR per device14:50
DocScrutinizer05luckily*14:50
wpwraki'm sure you can get a lot more when you're getting ready for production14:50
DocScrutinizer05I hope for that14:50
DocScrutinizer05bbl14:52
whitequarkmy new favorite facepalm pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bb2CcDPIAAAZOz3.jpg15:00
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: can you explain to me what this whiley e. coyote epigone jumping from the tower actually thought he's doing?15:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: maybe this explains it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS7FZBgOqgw15:12
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: afaik he was a BASE jumper who didn't jump very well and thus was rotating in air15:12
whitequarkand his chute, which was already at the border of its operating conditions, didn't open15:12
wpwrakwhitequark: can you understand what the camera guy mumbled at the end ?15:14
wpwrakprobably "he had the vodka bottle and now it's all broken [copulating cats"15:15
wpwrakerr, the vodka bottleS, of course15:15
whitequarkwpwrak: yes, sure. it's an one word expletive, roughly meaning "all is lost"15:16
whitequarkappropriate for everything from being one rouble short for a vodka bottle to a beginning of an atomic war15:17
wpwraki kinda thought that this was sort of all the same from the russian point of view :)15:17
whitequarketymologically, it's derived from the obscene term for female genitalia15:18
whitequarkwpwrak: well, yes... :)15:18
wpwraki wonder if there are language courses for swearing in russian. could be a useful cultural addition.15:19
wpwrakespecially when translated back to a language others can understand :)15:19
whitequarkenglish is really poor at swearing15:21
DocScrutinizer05thanks!15:22
whitequarkthere's like seven words and all of them have specific and rather dull meaning15:23
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: first of all we'd love the find ONE lousy 500246471 to check if it actually is what we're confronted with15:23
whitequarkwhereas in russian you have quite a few roots and countless forms and combinations, and all of them are ambiguous15:24
whitequarkwhen I have to swear in english, I find it easier to simply use "fuck" (and its derivatives) in place of all other expletives, since that, by removing incidental extraneous information, hopefully forces the listener to disambiguate it themselves and hear something more amusing, rewarding and/or descriptive15:26
whitequarkthough I probably just come off as a person with a very small vocabulary15:26
viricit's hard to learn proper swearing in a foreign language15:27
wpwrakbut one who puts a lot of thought into his swearing ;-)15:27
wpwrakviric: thanks to the intertubes and the online fora, this has gotten a lot easier in the last years15:28
viricEnglish doesn't count15:29
viricbecause there is a very broad acceptance of speaking.15:29
viricnoone of us natively speaks English, and we repeat "the English we see around".15:30
whitequarkthere's really no such a language as English15:30
whitequarks,a ,,15:30
viricit's like if I spoke russian with a non-russian15:33
viricand we tried to swear. both would understand, but a Russian would laugh on how bad we use swear words15:34
viricI bet an Englishman would notice hard differences among frasal verbs with 'fuck'15:37
whitequarkphrasal ?15:37
viricphrazzoul15:38
viric:)15:38
paul_boddieDocScrutinizer05: You mean one in its loose form and not in its native habitat in an N900?15:46
paul_boddiewhitequark: I think "copulating cats" has some mileage as new English swearing. :-)15:46
viricpaul_boddie: are you English?15:47
viricI'd like to know how an Englishman interprets "a fig for the king"15:47
paul_boddieviric: Yes.15:48
viriccan that be interpreted as "a finger for the king"?    middle finger raised.15:48
paul_boddieI'm sure "I don't give a fig" could be interpreted liberally to mean something rude, so why not?15:49
whitequarkpaul_boddie: I should use it more often15:50
paul_boddieEnglish banter relies a lot on wordplay, but that often leads to English speakers expecting to do the same in other languages, and it often doesn't work out.15:51
whitequarkin that video, it was used in a completely nonchalant, descriptive manner. cats are copulating. sun is bright. we are floating to the shore.15:51
whitequarkthat made it both more fitting and hilarious.15:51
paul_boddieI was surprised how calm they sounded. It's as if they were in an amphibious vehicle and weren't concerned about sinking.15:52
paul_boddieIt all reminded me of the way stupid console racing games reward players who more or less "ride" the crash barrier around the course.15:53
whitequarkthat's how you are expected to behave, in a lot of social circles15:53
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: yes16:05
paul_boddieIt's a shame they don't have actual photographs for all of those parts. It's hard to know what I'm looking at most of the time.16:20
DocScrutinizer05that's why it took me one complete day to find this 50024647116:23
DocScrutinizer05type16:23
paul_boddieHeh, KGB Answers: http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-under-my-cloak-a-fig-for-the-king-mean/1086071316:52
whitequarkhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU0Nzg19:48
whitequarksurprisingly, FSF just did something sane19:48
larsc_o way19:51
larsc_no way19:51
whitequarkthat would be a nice laptop for people with a legitimate reason to be paranoid19:53
wpwrakcute :)19:53
whitequarkreminds me of a days old article: turns out (I'm shocked, shocked) you can enable the webcam on a macbook without lighting up the LED, from userspace19:54
lekernel"The refurbished ThinkPad X60s from Gluglug start out with 1GB of RAM and a 60GB HDD" ?19:54
whitequarklekernel: yes, what's about it ?19:54
lekerneland 1024x768 LCD... ahem19:55
wpwrakwhitequark: that's nice of apple. so you don't jump every time the NSA checks if you're still okay.19:55
lekernelwell, that's rather small by today's standards19:56
whitequarklekernel: yes, it's inconvenient. but that's the price you pay for absence of backdoors.19:57
lekerneldid they check the HDD firmware for backdoors too? :-)19:57
whitequarkfor reference, recent-ish (I think ~2011 onwards) Intel laptops all include so-called anti-theft technology19:58
lekerneland the wifi card firmware (PCIe can DMA all over the place), and ...19:58
whitequarkwhich in layman's terms means that the BIOS, while the laptop is apparently off is able to connect to the WiFi/3G networks and receive commands remotely and execute them19:58
whitequarkand it's a feature19:59
whitequarkbarring all NSA-related stuff, I don't even want to know how many holes are in that thing19:59
whitequarklekernel: I believe they installed the Atheros card with FOSS firmware19:59
whitequarkso probably yes19:59
whitequarkHDD isn't a likely attack vector, but here you can embed your Linux image in the BIOS, thus removing HDD from trust chain20:00
whitequarkso it's also not a problem20:00
lekernelmost HDD CPUs are powerful enough to run Linux (and have plenty of SDRAM disk cache for memory)20:02
whitequarkassuming you encrypt and sign the data, what exactly can you do from a compromised HDD?20:03
whitequarkyou could obviously swap the bootsector and inject a backdoor. I've addressed that above.20:04
whitequarkincidentally, this can also be fixed by EFI SecureBoot, if you got your keys into it (easy) and trust EFI vendor to not fuck up (ha.)20:05
lekernelsend rogue signals over SATA to exploit the 1337 vulnerabilities that drivers surely have. but yeh.20:06
lekernelit gets hard :)20:06
lekernelwhere's the FOSS firmware for Atheros?20:07
whitequarkand this is why you probably should have systems languages with strong type systems :p20:07
whitequarkhttp://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ath5k#Hacking_ath5k20:07
whitequarkthough AR5B195 doesn't seem to appear in the device list... this needs further investigation20:08
whitequarkah, no, that's AR9285, which is ath9k-based. so no FOSS WiFi firmware.20:10
whitequarklekernel: on a more recent chip, you can prevent peripherals from DMAing all over the place with IOMMU.20:10
whitequarkbut, you don't have coreboot on them.20:10
rohfirmware?21:24
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