#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2013-12-16

nicksydneywpwrak: after polishing and using alcohol there are major differences http://snag.gy/mzSrg.jpg02:55
nicksydneywpwrak: this is the result http://ctrlv.in/270952 ...the photo paper still get stuck...this time i peel it off not using water02:56
nicksydneywpwrak: looks like board was the culprit for the toner not sticking....will test again some more with different paper...the HP photo paper either not working OR i did not apply enough heat02:57
nicksydneywpwrak: thoughts ?02:57
wpwrakalready in the first picture, the board looks a lot nicer :)03:57
wpwrakpaper disintegrating is now the main issue. maybe you can control that through the paper cleaning process: applying alcohol to the paper's surface and scrubbing off the "jelly" before printing03:59
wpwrakand yes, you may need to try different papers04:00
wpwrakthe amount of toner may also be a bit too low. can you tell your printer to use more toner ? maybe it's in some "draft" or "light" mode.04:00
wpwrakyou want it to use as much toner as possible. so no "economy", "draft", etc.04:01
kyakwpwrak: wwhat battery do you use at the moment?06:03
kyaki'm wondering about the form-factor06:04
wpwrakright now it's CR203206:06
wpwrakare you worried that it may get too big or that it may be too small ?06:06
kyakno, i'm not worried about anything, just got curios :)06:17
kyakwhen you first said "battery" in your e-mail, i imagined AAA, but then i realized it must something smaller06:18
wpwrakAAA would make the case about 2 mm thicker. not sure how much it would affect component placement. it would certainly block one of the long sides06:36
wpwrakmy biggest concern with AAA would be leakage. those alkaline batteries always leak sooner or later, except if you use them a lot and thus notice immediately when they're about to expire.06:38
wpwrakdown for a quick reboot ...07:09
wpwrakhmm. a usb-attached eval board starts acting up. the pc had a usb mishap earlier, so i reboot it. doesn't help. check cables and/or change port, all look well. usb problems get worse. then i swap the china crap brand usb hub. same result (!). try with/without external power. no change. swap power supplies. no change. connect board direcly to pc: all is well.08:06
wpwrakconnect board via openmoko debug board (which has a hub) to pc: all is well, too.08:06
wpwrakthe only explanation that would sort of make sense is that hub #1 died and hub #2 either died on the spot or was already dead on arrival. what are the odds ?08:07
apeletegood morning09:47
apeletelarsc_: hi there09:47
larsc_morning09:59
nicksydneywpwrak: another day another failure for my quest....no joy at getting perfect transfer :(10:01
nicksydneywpwrak: tried HP photo paper again and clean with alcohol also..no joy....but i'm getting better transfer than before10:02
nicksydneywpwrak: better transfer because the board is clean up properly but still the toner does not transfer completely and the paper still stuck on the board10:02
nicksydneywpwrak: looks like it's going to be a steep learning curve 10:03
apeletelarsc_: thinking about what to do next, do you think dma might work on the jz4740 usb chip ?10:04
larsc_I never saw it working, but the ingenic driver had at least some support for it10:05
larsc_So I think it is worth investigating10:05
apeletehmmm, didn't notice anything related to dma in the ingenic driver10:06
apeletelarsc_: will take a look at that :)10:06
apeleteI was also wondering about the gcw-zero, since it has an ingenic mips processor10:08
apeletelarsc_ mth: are you still working on it ?10:09
larsc_mth and pcercuei do I think, I never did10:10
nicksydneywpwrak: i have set the printing to 1200x1200 dpi10:12
larsc_apelete: there was some basic dma support at some point10:16
apeletelarsc_: don't know much about implementing dma, sounds like some fun so I'll certainly have a try :)10:18
apeletefor gcw-zero will see with mth and pcercuei when they come around then10:18
larsc_hopefully most of the dma stuff will be handled by the generic driver10:19
apeleteokay, so it should amounts to writing some more glue for dma and let the generic driver handle the heavy load, I guess10:22
wpwraknicksydney: printers often have a separate parameter to control the amount of toner. should have nothing to do with the resolution.13:18
nicksydneywpwrak: there is a something called 'Adjustment' under 'Printer Options' .. http://snag.gy/Tt4Dl.jpg13:20
wpwraknicksydney: maybe visit a printer supplies shop and get a collection of papers. could be that your HP paper just happens to be unsuitable. one thing that's annoying with toner transfer is that it's hard to get the same materials at geographically distinct locations.13:20
nicksydneywpwrak: the selection in that menu is 'Well Tampered (best)' [ this is what is selected at the moment ], 'Default', 'Accurate Screens', 'Standard'13:21
nicksydneywpwrak: seems like need to go and buy different paper and also try those ebay papers13:21
wpwrak(adjustment) that could be interesting. maybe try "default" and "standard"13:21
wpwrakah, what's there under "printing quality" ?13:22
wpwrakand what under "media type" ?13:22
nicksydney(printing quality) selection is only Draft and Normal13:24
nicksydney(media type) Plain Paper, Bond, Bond Side 2, Labels, Light Weight Card, Recycled Paper13:25
nicksydneywpwrak: another selection in Job Options -- http://snag.gy/DdFgF.jpg13:26
nicksydneyin 'Job Options' there is  a selection Print Quality..perhaps need to change to High from Normal13:26
wpwrakgood idea13:27
wpwrakis there anything you can set under "ink/toner levels" ?13:27
nicksydneynothing under 'ink/toner levels'  http://ctrlv.in/27107713:28
wpwraksniff :(13:31
wpwrakanything under "settings" ?13:31
nicksydneynothing...http://ctrlv.in/27107813:33
nicksydneyonly some info13:33
nicksydneyabout the printer13:33
DocScrutinizer05draft is "low toner consumption"13:34
nicksydneywhat i'm a bit worried about is the printer driver...because this printer does not have 'official' driver for Linux ... but windows....it has some driver for Red Hat but that also not 100% workable13:34
DocScrutinizer05you also don't want "halftone", you should try to pick "black&white"13:38
wpwrakthat's always the problem with those low-cost printers. but you already have a ton of options, so the right ones may be there13:38
wpwrakoh, and how are the results now: does the paper still disintegrate ? and where it doesn't, does the toner stay on the pcb ?13:39
nicksydneyyes the paper still disintegrate with the HP photo paper13:40
DocScrutinizer05"ink/toner levels" are irrelevant, unless your cartridge is empty 13:40
nicksydneybut what i notice now the paper really sticks to some part of the design ... not easily removed13:40
nicksydneywpwrak: this is the last one i did 3 hours ago http://ctrlv.in/271080 ...this is using some type of plastic-y kind of brochure paper13:47
nicksydney:)13:47
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, i was hoping there was also an option to influence them (as in "consume faster") there. you never know what ideas GUI designers have :)13:47
nicksydneywpwrak: this is the one the second time i did using the hp paper http://ctrlv.in/27108113:48
wpwrakmmh, those brochure papers don't look promising. i don't think i managed to get something quite so bad with any paper :)13:49
nicksydneytrying my hands at any paper that looks plastic-y at the moment :)....need to go to office supplies shop to buy other photo paper13:49
nicksydneyi saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHInpm1AtKU and they are able to really get full blown 100% transfer...I just shook my head in disbelief 13:51
wpwrakyeah. that's how i did it. got about ten different papers and tried one after the other. well, the chinese paper i'm using now was actually recommended by friends. so they did the ten papers routine for me ;-)13:51
wpwrak(hp 2nd try) no toner at all ?13:52
nicksydneyi removed the toner for the hp 2nd try with acetone...didn't take picture before i remove it :(13:53
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: feeding random platic stuff to laser printer or copier will be a sure way to damage it13:54
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: true....need to stop doing it ....as tomorrow onwards no more brochure paper :)13:54
nicksydneywpwrak: check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxRE0k2D4w ..do you have any idea what kind of paper is that ?13:55
nicksydneyin that video the middle of the paper is transparent13:55
wpwrakoh, when ironing, your stack is  pcb - transfer paper - regular paper (optional_ - iron, right ?13:56
DocScrutinizer05I'd try overhead foil for laser printers. It's true plastic, heat resistant, and usually has only one side that's matte so you can expect toner to stick firmly, while the other side is often high glossy and toner will come off easily13:56
DocScrutinizer05so when you use that overhead foil the wrong way round, you might get a proper printout that actually transfers nicely and peels off13:57
nicksydneywhen ironing pcb - transfer paper - iron13:57
wpwraknicksydney: (GSxRE0k2D4w) interesting. he's doing it all "wrong" but it still works :)13:58
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: so the overhead project plastic paper does work ?13:59
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i think i never heard of that approach. but yes, may be worth a try13:59
wpwraknicksydney: you're at the bottom of a deep pit. whatever you do, it can only get better :-)13:59
nicksydneyi have a transparent paper .. can't remember what it was called..bought it from art and craft shop...tried that yesterday but it melt when under iron13:59
nicksydneywpwrak: thanks for the motivation :)...ahhahaha14:00
DocScrutinizer05>>The vid refers to the paper as OHP. This may mean "overhead projector" paper. I think this refers to the plastic transparencies used for overhead projectors.<<  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxRE0k2D4w&noredirect=114:00
wpwraknicksydney: with transparent paper, make sure that it is intended for laser printers !14:00
nicksydneyit's demotivating at the moment for me :(14:00
nicksydneywpwrak, DocScrutinizer05: will this do ...http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Projectors/Overhead-Projectors/ACPP100C20 ?14:01
nicksydneywould it better bet for me to get overhead transparencies or photo paper ?14:02
DocScrutinizer05I think I never heard of any other approach than OHP, for toner transfer14:02
wpwraknicksydney: yeah, you're having an unusually large amount of trouble there :( by now you should already have reasonably good transfers. maybe nothing yet that you'd actually want to etch, given that anelok is a fairly demanding board, but you should be worrying about things like microfractures by now, not struggling to get at least half of the design to stick to the board14:03
wpwrakbut well, sometimes murphy chooses to become someone's special friend :)14:03
nicksydneywpwrak: i think it's the chuky world of murphy that choose to be my special friend :)14:04
DocScrutinizer05and of course toner brand and build is a particularly essential and important factor in this game14:04
wpwrakthat apollo OHP looks good. "most office copiers".14:05
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yes, some printers just suck. the one nick has gotten had been mentioned as suitable, though14:06
wpwrakand it's the original toner14:06
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: yes, that OHP looks good. Though I'd try to get one that has a printing and a non-printing side14:07
DocScrutinizer05if such stuff still exists14:07
wpwraknicksydney: if all else fails, maybe there are some hobbyists in your area who get together on weekends ? someone applying a known-to-work (even with different materials) process may be able to help you progress faster14:07
nicksydneywpwrak: yeah....in the local hackerspace...few of them have tried using this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Press-n-Peel-Blue-PCB-Transfer-Paper-Film-Etch-Circuit-Boards-Jewelry-5-Sheets-/160825024266 and they said it works 14:09
nicksydneywpwrak: but locally that kind of blue paper each cost $35 :(14:09
nicksydneywpwrak: if i have to order will have to wait for few weeks :(14:09
wpwrak(hackerspace) they all are using that blue paper ? nobody went looking for something local ?14:10
wpwrakor, local-and-not-evilly-expensive14:10
nicksydneywpwrak: most of them now fabricate .... using service like seeedstudio as it's cheaper for most of them :)14:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: btw, congratulations on crossing 50 kEUR ! soon you'll be able to just buy some fab to make those hell-to-source parts for you :)14:13
wpwraknicksydney: bah, sissies14:13
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: congrats !14:13
nicksydneywpwrak: how long normally you iron the board for ?14:15
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: this press-n-peel stuff looks very good. i was already wondering if I should suggest siliconized paper (or that bread packaging paper, that's pretty hard and glossy), but I didn't dare to suggest it without trying it first. This press-n-peel stuff seems identical principle though14:16
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: long enough to heat the PCB so it properly takes the molten platic of the toner14:17
DocScrutinizer05plastic*14:17
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: does 4-5minutes sounds long enough ? maybe that's the culprit of the problem for my case ?14:18
DocScrutinizer05sure!14:18
DocScrutinizer05just make sure you properly cleaned and scrubbed the PCB copper to make it matte14:19
DocScrutinizer05chalk abrassive cleaner power is ideal for that job14:20
wpwraknicksydney: about 60-120 seconds (per side)14:20
DocScrutinizer05you should place the PCB on a board or something, so no heat dissipates to the marble desk ;-)14:21
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: matte ? once you get rid of all the oxide, it's shiny  :)14:21
wpwrakyeah, don't iron on that copper table ;-)14:21
DocScrutinizer05then you did sth wrong14:21
DocScrutinizer05the trick is to properly roughen the copper surface14:22
DocScrutinizer05will miriads of microscopic scars14:22
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: the result works very well :) and yes, it's roughened. with small grooves from the steel wool. maybe your process works at an even smaller scale.14:23
DocScrutinizer05s/will/with/14:23
DocScrutinizer05s/mir/myr/14:24
nicksydneyok gentleman...thanks for the help ....will try again tomorrow..now time to hit the bed and dream of my toner transfer works 100% .. .see you all tomorrow :)14:24
wpwraktransferful dreams ! :)14:31
DocScrutinizer05and best of all: they "forgot" (SIC!) the flasher, so you can't flash clean image when you ruined it. Suggested SOP: send to Jolla headquarters, Norway, to get it reflashed15:15
DocScrutinizer05incredible15:15
DocScrutinizer05of curse warranty get conveniently voided when you enable "developer mode", so you pay for that idiotic procedure of shipping a device 3000km to get it reflashed to factory image15:16
DocScrutinizer05even more conveniently Noway isn't in EU, so you pay VAT. TWICE!15:17
DocScrutinizer0524% Nowegian VAT for sending to Jolla, plus 19% for them sending it back to EU15:18
DocScrutinizer05almost cheaper to get a new device15:18
DocScrutinizer05ROTFL15:18
DocScrutinizer05the more funny are the prices on ebay. Those bricks go for 200%15:19
DocScrutinizer05250% even15:20
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's the best use I can make of this annoyance15:21
wpwraksounds like fun :)15:22
DocScrutinizer05ooh, forgot to mention: they sent the shipping notification 6h (as usual) after fedex didn't find the entrance to my house (as usual). But with very unusual scientific notation tracking number, of course with only 6 digits mantissa15:23
wpwrakbut you can normally avoid taxes on warranty returns. of course, the bureaucracy may be more expensive than what you save.15:23
wpwrakand if there's VAT into .no, that would be on them anyway15:24
DocScrutinizer05while for the cheesy t-shirt, they sent the tracking info like 3 months before shipping, so no way I could#ve cought the actual shipment15:25
DocScrutinizer05well, they won't pay any VAT15:25
DocScrutinizer05they will charge YOU for that15:25
DocScrutinizer05plus processing/labor15:25
DocScrutinizer05mind you, warranty void when you want to use the device as intended15:26
wpwrakthey say that they charge you VAT for that ?15:26
DocScrutinizer05hint: you need "developer mode" to get a xterm15:26
wpwrakperhaps you should just send it back and ask for a refund15:26
wpwrakif they're such assholes then they don't deserve better15:26
DocScrutinizer05hah, they already sold a t-shirt for 100EUR to me15:27
DocScrutinizer05no refund for that15:27
wpwrakwell, if you buy such fancy t-shirts :)15:27
DocScrutinizer05nah, I'll sell that shit on ebay15:28
DocScrutinizer05not even worth disassembling15:28
DocScrutinizer05qualcom snapdragon :-/15:28
wpwrakeek15:28
DocScrutinizer05indeed15:28
DocScrutinizer05no schematics, no docs15:31
DocScrutinizer05no firmware to reflash15:31
DocScrutinizer05do I need to know what's inside such brick? surely not15:31
DocScrutinizer05their sailfish OS is closed crap as well15:32
wpwrak"we're a small shop and we have proven that we can make phones that suck just as much as the ones from the big players"15:32
wpwraklovely :)15:32
wpwrakthought at least their OS was reasonably friendly15:33
DocScrutinizer05yeah, absolutely friendly SDK to develop QtM apps15:33
DocScrutinizer05you're not supposed to do anything different than this path, when you want to develop for jollaphone15:34
DocScrutinizer05the GUI is closed AIUI. At least that was open on maemo515:34
DocScrutinizer05(see hildon desktop)15:34
DocScrutinizer05verbatim:15:36
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:12] <DocScrutinizer05> We have focused so much on getting the product ready and in your hands that our communication towards you hasn't been enough. We learned and we will improve this in the future.15:36
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:12] <DocScrutinizer05> Thank you for your patience.<<15:36
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:48] <smokex> srsly15:36
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:04:01] <smokex> they were hard at work developing the device for 2 years?15:36
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:06:30] <smokex> I am really wondering waht they have spent all this time doing15:37
DocScrutinizer05[Fri 13 December 2013] [06:06:36] <smokex> really15:37
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: here's a good example to draft a rant from (keep reading, the best is at the end): http://www.chucklorre.com/index-2hm.php?p=42915:42
DocScrutinizer05owell, I guess they are used to harder rants from my side meanwhile15:46
wpwrak;-)15:46
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1394340#post1394340 nad next are friendly ones15:48
DocScrutinizer05and I currently have enough "battles", e.g. with FSF/RMS15:50
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1396903#post139690315:51
apelete<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: here's a good example to draft a rant from (keep reading, the best is at the end): http://www.chucklorre.com/index-2hm.php?p=42915:57
apeletewell written rant indeed, very funny :)15:57
nicksydney_morning...no transfer toner dream last night :( ... another day in the toner transfer world :)20:48
wpwrakyou should have said "i love the smell of toner in the morning, the smell of victory"21:07
nicksydneywpwrak: too positive :)21:19
nicksydneywpwrak: need some negative so the current will flow .. hahaha21:19
wpwrakput a nice big sledgehammer under the table, so that boards/paper/printer will know what happens to them if they don't give their very best21:25
nicksydneywpwrak: nice one :)21:43
mthapelete: we're still working on the Zero, although it's a bit quiet at the moment22:21
apeletemth: ah great, was thinking about buying one and get my hands in the kernel code22:23
pcercuei_please do :p22:23
apeletestill have some work to do on that front ?22:23
pcercuei_plenty22:23
apeletemth pcercuei_: what would you need help with in the gcw-zero kernel ?22:25
pcercuei_USB OTG has to be fixed22:25
pcercuei_the SD card driver is a POS22:25
pcercuei_gpio-keys triggers a kernel panic22:25
apeletewhat do you mean by POS ?22:26
pcercuei_piece of sh*t22:26
apelete:D22:26
pcercuei_we have no power management, no suspend,22:26
apeleteok, plenty to do indeed :)22:26
pcercuei_the IPU driver wumpus was working on could be moved to use remoteproc,22:26
pcercuei_I meant VPU*22:26
mthI cleaned up the probe part of the SD (mmc) driver, but the part that does the I/O is still a mess22:26
pcercuei_the IPU driver is missing22:26
mththe audio driver could be modified to use a DMA engine, like larsc_ did for the JZ474022:27
pcercuei_the video driver could be moved to DRM+KMS22:27
mththe acceleration sensor needs a driver; so far we only accessed it by i2c from user space22:28
mthso there is plenty to do22:29
apeletemth pcercuei_: great, sounds like fun aplenty indeed :)22:29
pcercuei_definitely22:29
pcercuei_btw, if you want to help, I can give you something to fix right now :D22:29
apeletedo you have some place where you keep track of all these issues ?22:29
mthIRC ;)22:29
pcercuei_yeah mostly22:30
mthwe have an issue tracker on github, but there is very little entered there22:30
apeletepcercuei_ mth: right now still has something to fix in the musb patches for the nanonote, but I already sign up to be noticed when gcw is back in stock at dragonbox.de22:31
pcercuei_I have an issue with gpio-keys, it triggers a kernel panic under a certain condition, could you investigate that? I don't have a serial line so I can't get the trace22:32
pcercuei_I believe the Nanonote has one? ...22:32
mththe NanoNote doesn't use gpio-keys afaik, it has a keyboard matrix instead22:33
pcercuei_meh, of course, forgot about it22:33
apeletepcercuei_ mth: haven't got the device yet, but can I browse that issue tracker you set up ?22:34
apeleteany other source of information beside this channel and the code on github by the way ?22:35
pcercuei_not really :)22:35
mthhttps://github.com/gcwnow/linux/issues but it turns out it is completely empty22:35
mthanyway, the code is one level up from there22:36
mththere is a #gcw channel where users and devs hang out22:37
apeleteok, great. anyway, I guess I will be working on the nanonote until I get the gcw, then we can resume this discussion22:39
apeletemth pcercuei_: I was wondering lately if the gcw might be useful to learn new tricks, it seems I'm all set now, thanks :)22:41
pcercuei_yep, definitely22:42
nicksydneywpwrak: love it http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/on-battery.jpg .... hardcore ;)22:47
nicksydneywpwrak: that picture is my motivation to keep going :)22:47
wpwrakhehe :)22:52
wpwrakthe funny thing is that it's not even particularly good. the case was basically coming apart when i took it, because all the pressure went against the unsupported bottom, so it opened a bit, the display fell out of its space (you can see that it is slightly angled), and the case surface is about 1.5 mm above the wheel :)22:54
nicksydneywpwrak: still better than what i'm doing :) ... hahahah23:19
wpwrakjust found about about "flame polishing" acrylic. fascinating.23:33
--- Tue Dec 17 201300:00

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