#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2013-12-15

wpwraktoday is blackout day :-(00:13
nicksydneydamn it !!!!...still doesn't want to stick !00:29
nicksydneythe only successful one (around 60% stick) is the brochure00:29
wpwrakmaybe your iron is set too cold ?00:32
wpwrakor maybe you're not ironing long enough00:33
wpwrakor not applying enough pressure. you can pretty much push down as hard as you like..00:33
wpwrakalso, what does "doesn't want to stick" mean ? nothing at all ?00:34
nicksydneyi meant the toner doesn't want to stick completely on the board :)00:37
nicksydneyi set the iron to the ma00:38
nicksydneyif i still see the toner still stick to the paper does that mean that not enough heat being transferred ?00:38
nicksydneyin terms of pressure my feeling is i apply enough pressure but probably need to press bit harder00:38
wpwrakyes, i'd try with a bit more pressure and maybe more time ironing00:40
wpwrakhow do you treat the surface of the paper ? do you clean it with alcohol ? or not at all ? you can try reversing whatever you do there00:41
wpwrak(clean with alcohol) wet a bit with alcohol, leave it there for a few seconds, then gently remove the jelly-like stuff from the surface with a paper towel.00:43
wpwraknot all papers have such a surface treatment, but many do00:43
nicksydneyfor the paper not at all no treatment00:55
nicksydneyyou mean clean the paper with alcohol before printing or after printing the artwork ?00:55
wpwrakbefore printing01:01
nicksydneythis the current one I'm working  on ..... http://snag.gy/hWEBO.jpg  .... http://ctrlv.in/270531 .... http://ctrlv.in/27053201:11
nicksydneyi'm still soaking the board in the water with hot water..let's see if those paper will come off by itself01:11
wpwrakdon't soak. the paper really ought to come off dry.01:13
wpwrakif you soak it, you weaken the bonding of the surface, so the paper is more likely to remain01:13
wpwraki wonder whether the copper is smooth enough. you're using fine steel wool, right ? not the coarse stuff01:15
wpwrakfine = the threads are about as thick as hair; coarse = the "threads" are maybe 0.5-1 mm wide01:16
wpwrakthen, you should scrub in an X pattern: left-right until the copper shines, then up-down until you only see up-down grooves, then maybe repeat left-right01:17
wpwrakthen clean the board surface with alcohol and paper towel. this is important for removing the steel dust01:18
nicksydneyi think the step that i'm missing in cleaning the board is the use of alchohol....i only use water 01:25
wpwrakah no, water is bad. that'll only help the oxides back on board01:27
wpwrakbesides, the alcohol will get rid of any lipids01:28
nicksydneyi'm uploading the steel wool pic01:28
nicksydneyhttp://ctrlv.in/270542 -- steel woll01:29
wpwrakthat's the coarse stuff01:29
nicksydneyanother batch trying again -- http://ctrlv.in/27054301:29
wpwrakhmm, that paper looks quite thin. maybe that's part of the problem01:31
wpwrakthe one i use is about 240 um. for comparison, regular laser printer paper is about 100 um.01:33
wpwrakso the printer paper has about the thickness of the paper you put photo prints on01:34
wpwrakwell, maybe it only looks thin. how large is that sheet ?01:35
nicksydneyif i compare with a normal A4 paper it's bit thicker01:36
wpwrakthe steel wool you want should look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steel-wool.jpg01:36
wpwrakor like this: http://d3rhfm7sshutfw.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/steelwool-300x285.jpg01:37
wpwrakthat other steel wool, if you pick the copper/bronce version of the same structure, makes an excellent sponge to clean the soldering iron. much more convenient than real sponges since it doesn't need to be wet.01:40
nicksydneythe result after peeling off from the board (this is the 2nd attempt) -- http://ctrlv.in/27054601:40
wpwrak(but don't use steel wool - use copper/bronce wool. the steel would damage the tip of the soldering iron)01:40
wpwrak(picture) i'm confused :)01:41
wpwrakwhat's that yellow-white film stuff ?01:42
nicksydneythis is the result on the board (for the 2nd attempt) http://ctrlv.in/270547 .. and this is the result on the paper what is left over of the toner after peeling it off from the board  http://ctrlv.in/27054601:42
nicksydneythe "yellow-film" stuff is a brochure paper i'm using 01:42
wpwrakah, i see01:43
wpwrakyou still have the problem that the paper disintegrates01:43
wpwrakthat paper probably doesn't have enough strength. and it probably simply doesn't have enough plastic/jelly on its surface01:44
wpwrakso the toner really likes to stay on the paper01:44
wpwrakplease use a glossy "photo" paper for ink printers. once you get that to work, you can always try to find some cheaper paper source. but it's probably not worth the effort.01:45
nicksydneythis is the original brochure paper i used for the 2nd attempt http://ctrlv.in/27054901:46
wpwrakah, i see. don't know how these are made. the chemistry may be quite different from "photo" paper01:47
nicksydneylooks like i need to revisit (1) the way the copper is being clean and (2) just use photo paper ... what you think  ?01:48
wpwrakbtw, there's yet another choice: if you can't find any photo paper with enough plastic on it, you can try the plastified paper on which adhesive stickers come01:48
nicksydney(1) for cleaning the copper .. will need to find the steel wool you showed in that link and also will need alcohol...in terms of cleaning the board...i just use alchohol to clean it OR clean it first with water and than apply alcohol >01:49
wpwraka few warnings about that, though: a) you need to clean it very well or you'll drag glue into your printer causing an early retirement of at least the transfer drum, and b) you need to work at a lower temperature with this sort of paper01:50
nicksydney"lower temp with this sort of paper"...you mean the photo paper ?01:51
wpwrak(cleaning) just alcohol: 1) scrub it nice and shiny with the steel wool, then 2) put a bit of alcohol on it, wet a paper town with alcohol, then rub off the steel dust (you can apply a good amount of pressure). you'll see that the paper towel comes back black.01:51
wpwrak(lower temp) subtrate for adhesives. the "plan B" approach01:52
wpwrakbut it's better if you can get "photo" paper to work. that's more robust. the adhesives stuff is also very sensitive to pressure and such. so it smears easily. you can get it to work but it takes some effort.01:53
wpwrakit's basically the exact opposite of your not-to-cooperative brochure. but of course, if failure lurks at one extreme, that doens't mean that the other extreme is any friendlier :)01:54
wpwrak# s/-to-/-so-/01:55
nicksydneythis is the photo paper i got ... http://ctrlv.in/27055201:56
wpwrakthe one i used was called "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper"01:58
wpwrakactually, "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy"01:58
wpwrakso maybe that's one extra ppm of plastic :)01:59
nicksydneyis this Isopropyl Alcohol  http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/Cons_Isopropyl_Alcohol_PDS_Oct11.pdf enough ?01:59
wpwrakbut of course we don't get that good stuff around here anymore01:59
wpwrakthe replacement i use now is this: http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html02:00
wpwrakit gives off particles that will eventually produce visible artefacts on the printer's drum but the transfer is very clean. and no problems at all with paper disintegrating.02:01
wpwrak(alcohol) looks decent enough. they don't even mention the concentration so maybe it's actually pure :)02:03
nicksydney(alchohol) will buy that later today and also the steel wool and will try again with the HP photo paper again02:05
nicksydneyusing this paper http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html were you able to do transfer completely everytime ?02:05
wpwrakif you have a stationary / computer supplies shop on the way, maybe look for that chinese paper, too. maybe you're lucky :)02:06
wpwrakyes, it works great. remember this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/02:06
wpwrakthe one on the left is the "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy", the one on the right the paper from china02:07
nicksydneythere is on ebay.com.au http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-20-Sheets-x-A4-Glossy-Photo-Paper-For-Inkjet-Printer-140gsm-/251249784571?pt=AU_Computers_Printer_Accessories&hash=item3a7fa776fb02:07
wpwrakits main weakness are large surfaces. there, it sometimes leaves holes. but then you can just cover them up with a permanent marker. or ignore the imperfection.02:08
wpwrakmine is heavier, 240-260 g02:10
nicksydneywhen you did this  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ you just peel the paper off and that's it ? 02:10
wpwrakyup. nice and easy ;-)02:11
nicksydneythe one that I have http://ctrlv.in/270552 it says 25002:11
wpwrakwell, i wash the board afterwards. with tap water, rubbing it with a thumb. that way, any plastic residues that may get in the way of the acid come off. else you can have some small copper spots.02:12
wpwrak250 sounds good. that means that they have enough space to make it nice02:13
nicksydneyi was wondering you know with this one http://ctrlv.in/270531 what will happen if the paper is not removed completely and then etch it ?02:15
wpwrakthe acid will politely refrain from touching the areas it's being blocked from02:16
nicksydneyi see....because it looks like it sticks to the copper but the paper "refuses" to let it go02:17
wpwrakmaybe a little bit will make it under the paper but its effect will be greatly reduced02:17
wpwrakwell, unless you make a REALLY aggressive mix. if you make the acid bad enough, then it'll just eat through anything in its way. be that paper, pieces of nick, or whatever :)02:19
wpwrakyup, that's what it looks like. most likely the thin plastic surface coating, not the paper itself. so that's a very efficient acid barrier.02:20
nicksydneyfrom all the paper i've tried that one i notice was the most successful one....but it's so annoying that i can't get rid of the left over paper02:20
nicksydneyhttp://ctrlv.in/270531 --> in this one you notice the top and bottom part i strip off the paper and the whole toner came off with it02:21
wpwraknaw, that doesn't look very successful. exactly because of that problem02:21
wpwrakdon't be fooled by the nice print you can see through the paper. that's toner on paper, not toner on copper.02:21
nicksydneyahh ok...thought that the toner has "stick" to the copper but the paper refuses to do it02:22
wpwrakall the places where you were able to remove the paper say otherwise :)02:23
wpwrakwell, except the about 2 x 2 mm lower right corner. these three vias and their traces look quite nice ;)02:24
nicksydneywill try again later .. need to go out after this and drop by to buy the alcohol and steel wolll02:25
wpwrakhappy hunting ! :)02:25
nicksydneyoh the other thing i was thinking and tried was the clear tape https://www.google.com.au/search?q=clear+tape&client=ubuntu&hs=URi&channel=fs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qBStUtoziMiVBZyLgNAG&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1615&bih=96002:32
wpwrakwhat about it ?02:33
nicksydneyso i lay a brochure paper and put clear tape on top of that and than print on it ..and after ironing the board i peel it off i can see that is sticks better to the board 02:33
nicksydneybut it was not 100%..it was around 70-75% successful on the board02:33
wpwrakwell, that's one way of getting plastic ...02:33
wpwrakyes, that could work if you refine the process sufficiently02:34
nicksydneydo you think the paper that is used for laying the plastic tape on really matter when it comes to ironing it to the board ?02:34
nicksydneywill try that again once i clean the board properly and see if it will work02:36
wpwrak(paper used for laying the plastic tape on) you mean if you print on adhesive tape instead of on photo paper ? well, it would still have to make a firm connection with the adhesive tape. but else, it would be removed from the equation.02:37
wpwrakbwahaha: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iteaduino-lite-most-inexpensive-full-sized-arduino-derivative-board03:06
wpwrakfinally - an arduino at the price of a four-pack of toilet paper.03:06
whitequarkhuh. LGT88A8, a clone of atmega32807:02
whitequarkseems like a first of its kind07:03
larsc_maybe a nightshift version of it ;)07:14
larsc_apelete: yep, unfortunatelly something went wrong when the patches were submitted originally and the patch removing the old custom API was merged before the audio driver was updated.10:16
larsc_apelete: how about adding your usb patches to the qi kernel tree?10:17
apeletelarsc_: was thinking about it yesterday. is it okay if I push them to jz-3.12 branch ?10:34
qi-bot[commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: add support for JZ4740 usb device controller (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/03232dd11:38
qi-bot[commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: fix setting JZ4740 gadget periphal mode on reset (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/77ae27911:38
qi-bot[commit] Apelete Seketeli: mips: qi_lb60: update defconfig for the Ben NanoNote (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/364d81f11:38
larsc_I think we can also revert the old driver11:42
larsc_But this is really awesome, since this was one of the last major missing pieces to finally have full upstream support for the nanonote11:43
apeletelarsc_: hmm, old driver is already disabled in the code, maybe we can wait that the musb glue layer is merged upstream before removing it completely11:44
apeletewhat do you think ?11:44
larsc_I'd just remove it11:46
larsc_but whatever you think is better11:46
larsc_We may use the old driver to figure out how to get dma working11:46
apeletelarsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure how some things like dma may work11:48
apeletes/figure/figure out/11:48
wpwrakqi-hw is back22:41
lekerneland the sharism.cc domain has expired22:42
wpwrakthe modules catalog: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf22:43
wpwraklekernel: it did that eons ago22:43
lekernel(domain expiring, not just the server going down)22:44
wpwrakeven longer than i remembered. those eons flash past really quickly :)22:45
--- Mon Dec 16 201300:00

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