#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-12-05

rjeffriesbummer that sharism.cc domain evaporated. but maybe it doesn't matter? qi-hardware.com is used more methinks.00:08
hellekinhttps://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5294.html The Exploration and Exploitation of an SD Memory Card00:14
hellekinsti.cki.ng -> http://www.crowdsupply.com/chibitronics/circuit-stickers00:14
wpwraksharism.cc was the shop. that shop stopped operating many months ago. so it makes sense in a way to shut down sharism.cc00:15
wpwrak(sd card) nice. maybe anelok doesn't need an mcu after all ;-))00:16
wpwrakboot from the wireless, read new sd firmware from the card, reflash the card's firmware, then delegate control there. oh yes, even more advanced that broadcom's boot-through-the-gpu :)00:18
kristianpaulboot with no mcu from wireless?  :?00:28
hellekinhttps://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5545.html <- bitcoin hardware wallet00:32
hellekinthere's going to be some interesting hardware talks at 30c3. Anyone going there?00:32
wpwraklooked a the trezor a whole ago. limited in scope but the concept seems nice.00:40
rjeffrieswpwrak when you launch anelok on Indiegogo or similar place, maybe a "stretch" goal at significant extra funding could be a Bitcoin wallet? May be too demanding of CPU etc however...00:46
wpwraki like the idea of having a wallet. i don't so much like the idea of having this as a "stretch goal". stretch goals would basically have to be something that falls into your lap.00:51
wpwrakotherwise you're putting your schedule at risk00:51
wpwrakalso, it's open, so anyone can develop things for it. it wouldn't make sense for me to promise a feature that someone else may make. in fact, if it promised it, that may prevent others from doing it00:53
wpwrakof course, the better the thing sells, the more money will be there for new things. that could also mean better hardware.00:56
rjeffriesunderstood. silly me, focusing on what might create buzz. Bitcoin anything is so shiny01:00
wpwrakoh, it is :)01:06
wpwrakof course, the BTC hype is now. so maybe it should be a worldcoin wallet. or whatever the next one will be :)01:06
DocScrutinizer05BTC is a PITA, for accepting payments 01:50
DocScrutinizer05and actually I fail to grok the whole concept, or rather the idea behind it. It's still depending on a centralized structure to log where which amount sits, AIUI01:52
wpwrakwhy is it a PITA ?01:53
DocScrutinizer05reports say they recently busted several drug dealers by monitoring that01:53
wpwrakah yes, it's not quite as anonymous as some people may think :)01:54
DocScrutinizer05(that's not the PITA, the PITA is constantly changing exchange rates)01:54
wpwrakyeah, that needs some flexibility :)01:55
wpwrakprobably the best approach is - if you want to play it safe - to convert what you absolutely must have immediately (or at least soon), keep the rest to see if it increases01:55
wpwrakand add a safety margin on any BTC prices you announce01:56
wpwrakthere may actually be some money to be made in offering a service that pays a given amount of USD, EUR, etc., in exchange for BTC. basically "send us BTC X by 00:00 UTC today and we'll wire USD Y to the account you specify"01:58
wpwrakthe definition of "send" would be a bit tricky, of course, since as i understand it, a transfer may take a variable amount of time. and you probably don't have a proof of emission before the transfer completes. well, maybe you do. the experts will know :)01:59
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: mhm, please calculate 19% VAT on that02:01
wpwrakan arrival deadline would work too, of course: you tell people how many hours/days they should initiate the transfer in advance, and it it arrives by the deadline you pay. otherwise you send it back (minus transfer fees and maybe a small handling fee)02:01
wpwraki don't think banks pay VAT on exchanges ;-)02:01
DocScrutinizer05but the webshop has to do02:02
DocScrutinizer05do pay Finanzamt with BTC?02:02
wpwraki'm talking about a payment service that would solve your "BTC is too volatile" problem02:02
wpwrakhow you calculate your EUR prices is still your problem :)02:03
DocScrutinizer05toldya: PITA02:03
dos1wpwrak: transaction speed depends on fee02:04
dos1and actually some "proof" of transaction is available almost instantly - but if you want to be immune to some frauds, you have to wait for more confirms02:05
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: only if such a service doesn't exist. otherwise, it's like accepting EUR.02:06
dos1on typical, recommended fee it's the matter of 10-15 minutes02:06
DocScrutinizer05webshop needs to send out an invoice, drawn on EUR, with 19% VAT which you will have to pay to tax office02:06
DocScrutinizer05it needs to do that just in time02:06
dos1with zero fee - it may be almost infinity, or may be 10-15 minutes as well - depending on your luck02:07
DocScrutinizer05this whole BTC feels like a bic rippoff02:07
DocScrutinizer05big even02:08
dos1it's an interesting idea and even more interesting implementation, but for it to work well as a currency it needs some exchange rate that's not just a function of demand :P02:10
DocScrutinizer05every currency works on the basis of some entity controlling it02:11
dos1and some charts that do not look like a giant bubble02:11
dos1http://bitcoinwisdom.com/ - choose 3d02:11
DocScrutinizer05and every modern currency works on the basis of infinite but closely controlled resources - I.E. *somebody* cna always print enough dollars02:12
DocScrutinizer05BTC is limited by math, i heard02:13
dos1oh yes, the fun with btc will start when mining ends and there's no flow of new coins02:13
wpwrakdos1: no 3D in settings here02:13
dos1wpwrak: i mean time period, 3 days :)02:13
DocScrutinizer05in 3 years or whatever, the last Bitcoin will be calculated, and then that's it02:13
wpwrakah yes, taking off quite nicely :)02:14
wpwrakof course, if you want crazy, try LTC :)02:14
dos1yeah, almost 50x up in one month02:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: "regular" currencies have a huge bubble too, thanks to all the "virtual" money made through derivatives02:16
dos1and I considered buying some 2 or 3 litecoins back when they were at $102:16
dos1of course turned out to be too lazy :)02:16
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: so their only safety is that not enough people accept that they're about as bad a BTC02:16
wpwrakdos1: you can still mine them. with a decent PC, you may be able to get 2-3 per year ;-)02:17
dos1yup, I know :D02:17
wpwrakdos1: multiply with 10 if you have a top-notch GPU02:18
dos1and what's the saddest02:18
dos1I wanted to mine some btc few years ago, when it just started02:19
dos1just because it seemed cool idea02:19
dos1I installed the client and thought that it's enough02:19
DocScrutinizer05yeah, back when02:19
dos1checked after few days - it was doing something with cpu, but still 0 btc02:20
dos1so I just went "meh" and removed it02:20
wpwrakthat much about becoming a millionaire. now go back to washing dishes :)02:21
dos1now when I know a bit about it, seems like it was eating some cpu when keeping in sync with blockchain, and of course mining had to be turned on by some console option02:21
wpwrakheh. tricky :)02:21
dos1I guess back then I could easily mine full blocks on CPU and get some 50 BTC rewards02:22
dos1worth some fraction of cent back then :)02:22
wpwrakso you blew your early retirement02:22
dos1well... I guess I'd probably have sold it already by now :D02:23
dos1but maybe if I'd forget about them at all and just remind myself about it right now02:24
nicksydneywpwrak: seems like my prayer has been answered http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Printers/Laser-Printers-and-Multifunctions/Mono-Laser-Printers/FXP205B# ... what you think ?02:24
dos1then yeah... awful :P02:24
wpwrak"This is a GDI printer and is not compatible with Linux and UNIT operating systems."02:26
wpwraknice, so there are people in IT support who still can't spell "UNIX" :)02:27
wpwrakbut according to this, that "official" answer may be wrong; http://askubuntu.com/questions/98016/alternative-printer-driver-for-fuji-xerox-docuprint-p205b02:27
nicksydneydang !02:29
wpwraknaw, what this says is that it's probably okay. but you need foo2hbpl: http://foo2hbpl.rkkda.com/02:29
wpwrakapparently toner is $$$ but the, if you only use it for toner transfer, the initial kit will last a very very long time02:30
wpwraksomething like a for a century or two02:32
wpwrakthis guy seems happy with it: http://www.electronicspoint.com/toner-transfer-pcbs-having-bga-packages-them-t246521.html02:34
nicksydneywpwrak: yeah my plan is to use that for the toner transfer .. but once in a while can be used as  backup printer in case my son's printer go bonker :)02:34
nicksydneyi saw this laminator hack http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 ... and the laminator is sold at the same store for $1602:35
nicksydneybut i need to buy the 10-Amp thermostat which is costing $10 :(02:36
wpwrakphew. that's what i call brute force02:38
wpwraki modded mine to run more slowly. so no significantly increased meltdown risk.02:38
wpwrakthe circuit that does the trick is a PIC with a relay, cutting power to the motor at ~1 Hz. crude but works :)02:39
wpwrak(don't remember the duty cycle)02:40
nicksydneydamn the thermostat is quite expensive02:41
nicksydneyunless i buy from HK :) http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Pcs-190C-Celsius-N-C-2-Flat-Pin-Terminal-Ceramic-Thermostat-10-Amp-AC-250V-/400553516499?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5d42d99dd302:42
DocScrutinizer05WOW those guys are... brave^H^H^H^H MAD!03:22
DocScrutinizer05*soldering* a 240°C thermal fuse (RS# 1769356)03:22
DocScrutinizer05I gues the could simply replace the fuse by a few cm of the solder wire03:23
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: when you plan to hw-mod that http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 stuff, I *urgently* recommend to CRIMP stuff and not use soldering *anywhere*03:25
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you're just jealous. you already had your apartment fire, so you can never have that "first time" experience again. the confusion, the delightful agony, the realization that you may survive after all, ...03:28
DocScrutinizer05yeah :-S03:28
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: sorry don't understand what you mean crimp ? which part ?03:29
DocScrutinizer05but this one as well might end in electrocution03:29
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: thanks for the heads up...anything to make me stay alive :)03:29
DocScrutinizer05nicksydney: *all* parts03:29
DocScrutinizer05don't even *think* about using your soldering iron on that thing03:30
wpwraknicksydney: what he's saying is that, after the modification, the critter will operate at or near the temperature at which the solder melts.03:30
nicksydneywpwrak: ahhhh gotcha.03:31
wpwrakof course, what may be even more interesting are the flash points (i think that's the right word ?) of all the inflammable materials in the area :)03:31
nicksydneyany tips on how to crimp the right way03:31
DocScrutinizer05there are hollow rivets03:32
DocScrutinizer05usually used to treat wire ends that are braid copper03:32
wpwraknicksydney: i like your determination :)03:33
DocScrutinizer05and http://www.google.de/images?q=crimpzange&hl=en-DE&gbv=2&oq=crimpzange&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l5.42229.45725.0.46396.
wpwrakfirst it looks a little .. let's say strange. then you get suspicious. then you see the warning signs. then somebody tells you. then you see the little crucifices on the roadside. then you hear the screaming. ... :)03:34
nicksydneylooks like it's easier to use iron03:35
nicksydneysafer i guess :)03:35
DocScrutinizer05this hw mod would make me feel a tad uncomfortable03:36
nicksydneyi think i stick with iron for now and worry about laminator for next time until i know what i'm doing ..don't want to have disaster working with high voltage03:36
nicksydneyallright so will buy the printer only in that case03:36
wpwrakmy approach: battery-powered MCU + relay on the (mains) power supply to the motor. battery-powered so that i don't have to build a proper power supply. quick and dirty but it works. oh, and apply acrylic spray (isolation) generously on that pcb :)03:37
nicksydneydoes this paper sounds good for printing the pcb design http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Office-Supplies/Paper/Photo-Paper/Gloss-Photo-Paper/INHPD8008 ?03:37
wpwraknicksydney: printer first sounds good to me03:37
Action: DocScrutinizer05 waves03:37
Action: DocScrutinizer05 heads out to get some milk and pretzel03:38
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: .....and don't forget some yogurt :) .hahaha03:39
wpwrak(paper) looks decent enough. you may want to get a few papers and then try how well they work03:39
DocScrutinizer05ROTFL >>If anything CATCHES FIRE, we're not responsible (seriously, don't even attempt this modification)<<03:39
wpwrakthe mixture is basically: paper, amount of alcoholic cleaning you apply to the paper, and then the heating process03:39
nicksydneywpwrak: "alchholic cleaning you apply to the paper" ..do you mean that I need to clean the paper first with alcohol ?03:41
DocScrutinizer05>>Solder as quickly as possible to avoid destroying the fuse!<<< MUHAHAHAHAAAAHAAA03:41
wpwraknicksydney: some papers have some sort of gelatine on top. if you remove that, it'll work better. you need to apply a bit of alcohol (can be very little, can be a little more. don't soak the paper, though. else it'll take forever to dry.), then wipe off the sludge with a paper towel03:42
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: then place the large bags of fertilizer right underneath and apply a generous quantity of diesel ...03:44
nicksydneywpwrak: can i use nail acetone ?03:44
nicksydneywpwrak: my wife got few lying around :_)03:44
DocScrutinizer05contains oil03:45
wpwraknicksydney: and it's usually too aggressive03:45
nicksydneyoh ok ... what kind of alcohol you recommend03:45
wpwrakisoprophylic is the usual cleaning choice. you can get it at high purity.03:45
wpwrakunless they're nasty taxes on it, also high-concentration ethylene (from the supermarket) will work03:46
nicksydneylet me check from a website 03:47
nicksydneythis .. http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=40678  ?03:49
wpwrakisoprophylic is also used as a spray. that's convenient for cleaning stuff. of course, more it's expensive than just as a liquid.03:49
nicksydneyor perhaps from this http://shop.pharmacydirect.com.au/pharmacy/Isopropyl%20Alcohol ?03:50
wpwraki wish they indicated the concentration/purity03:51
wpwrakwell, it's probably written on the back of the bottle03:52
nicksydneyok will check later in their store03:52
wpwrakhttp://www.isocol.com.au/ -> "99% OF GERMS! USE ISOCOL" ;-)03:55
wpwrakbut since they have "100%" stuff there, the rest of probably high-purity as well03:55
rjeffrieswonders if maybe DRINKING alcohol when making PCBs using laser printer is also effective?03:57
nicksydneywpwrak: you think that should be ok ?03:57
wpwrakbtw, this is the spray version: http://www.edelta.com.ar/edelta/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypagem&product_id=535&category_id=70&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=103:58
wpwrakyeah, looks okay-ish03:58
wpwrakand yes, drinking steadies the hands :)03:58
rjeffriesand calms the mind03:59
wpwrakthey probably had a bottle of sibierian permafrost vodka before making that laminator mod. very calm mind. no fear at all :)04:05
nicksydneywpwrak: hahahhahha04:09
wpwrakthis is a nice one: https://www.schneier.com/news-072.html04:12
wpwrakthe best is at the end. "two eyes" :)04:12
DocScrutinizer0599% of germs use isocol? wow, what uses the remaining 1%?04:17
DocScrutinizer05what are using the remaining 1%? ?04:18
wpwrakthey probably use 100% H2O2 for their dental hygiene04:18
wpwrakafter vigorously shaking the bottle, of course04:19
nicksydneywpwrak: i think this is the right one http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=NA1066 ?04:36
wpwrakyeah, that's good !04:42
nicksydneyawesome !...tonight is the night....04:43
nicksydneygoing to buy those 2 ...late shoping tonight04:43
wpwrakhehe. nothing like an early xmas :)04:43
nicksydneyyeah true....especially doing something new ...really excite me...04:46
nicksydneythe other thing i need is the kit to remove copper from the pcb04:46
nicksydneywhat you think about this http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 ?04:47
nicksydneyjust realised that kit does not have the chemical needed04:48
nicksydneyonly the tray and few tools and copper04:48
nicksydneywpwrak: you mention " HCl + H2O2 is a LOT better than ferric chloride. you can find the ingredients everywhere, it's a clean liquid and it stays clear (unlike FeCl with all the black sludge building up in there), it works perfectly at room temperature (FeCl: wants heating), and you can just store and reuse it "04:52
DocScrutinizer051 x 100g Sachet of Sodium Persulphate etchant04:52
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: my chem is not that superb :)...any humanly name like for example dish soap or something :)04:54
nicksydneywpwrak: that seems too complicated and difficult to find..unless I can find it through household items04:55
DocScrutinizer05http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 has etchant04:57
DocScrutinizer05actually a rather good one04:57
DocScrutinizer05though not stable, it will deteriorate once you used it04:57
nicksydneytrue...so at least for few times use should be ok04:58
DocScrutinizer05don't heat the etching bath to more than 50°C since that speeds up the deterioration of the Na2S2O804:59
nicksydneyis it better to add hot water ?04:59
Action: DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if wpwrak would accept Na2S2O8 as a substitute for the fertilizer mentioned before04:59
DocScrutinizer05well, adding hot water speeds up the time til etching kicks in, you don't need to heat it in the bath container05:01
DocScrutinizer05Na2S2O8 is a salt05:01
DocScrutinizer05you need to add water anyway05:01
DocScrutinizer05I guess they have a blurb05:02
DocScrutinizer05where they explain exactly what to do05:02
DocScrutinizer05the PCB seems to be coated with photoresist05:02
DocScrutinizer05so instead of transferring the toner, you could try exposing the PCB-coated via a transparent foil with the toner on it05:04
nicksydneyok once i have it will go through instruction or some sort blurb 05:04
nicksydneyexpose it without ultraviolet right ?05:04
DocScrutinizer05it's a photopositive, so the areas that get exposed to light will vanish aiui. Rather they will vanish when you "develop" the PCB in developer bath05:05
DocScrutinizer05then you can etch 05:05
DocScrutinizer05the traces should be protected by the non-exposed photoresist05:05
nicksydneyah ok05:06
nicksydneyboy you guys are smart :)05:06
Action: nicksydney bow down to DocScrutinizer05 and wpwrak 05:06
DocScrutinizer05get overhead foil for your printer!05:07
DocScrutinizer05to print the layout on it05:08
DocScrutinizer05needs to be laserprinter-proof05:08
DocScrutinizer05this is IMPORTANT05:08
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: glossy paper for laser printer should do fine ?05:09
DocScrutinizer05then - after printing layout - you check the thing holding it against the light, and see if there are any holes or sth. Use a touch-up pen to fix those holes05:10
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: ok05:10
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: this kind of glossy paper -- http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/search/glossy+photo+paper05:10
DocScrutinizer05for exposure to the photoresist you neet transparent05:10
nicksydneyohh ok05:10
nicksydneysomething like this http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Projectors/Overhead-Projectors/ACPP100C2005:11
DocScrutinizer05btw it's a good idea to make the toner on the downside of the transparent foil, directly on top of the photoresist, so you have no light bleeding under the black traces05:11
DocScrutinizer05hmm probably should fit. Copier works like laserprinter05:13
DocScrutinizer05take care! whatever method you use, both need the layout printed mirrored to what it shall be on PCB!05:14
DocScrutinizer05ideally you write some letters like "TOP" on the layout, at a location where it doesn't interfere with your electrical traces05:15
DocScrutinizer05then you'll notice easily later on when you got something the wrong way round05:16
DocScrutinizer05no kidding, I already created and etched and drilled mirrored PCBs. Then I started swearing05:16
DocScrutinizer05(([2013-12-05 06:04:46] <nicksydney> expose it without ultraviolet right ?)) there will be instructions how and how long to expose. IIRC it's something like "30s of full noon sun. OR 5 min under a 30W FL lamp, at 50cm distance)"05:20
DocScrutinizer05but yes, afaik basically UV05:20
DocScrutinizer05so handling isn't really that hard, when you sit in a dark room with one dim incandescent lamp05:21
DocScrutinizer05instructions paper will elaborate on all this05:21
DocScrutinizer05when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose and complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method05:24
DocScrutinizer05s/and com/com/05:24
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: seen the copper recycling with steel wool recommendation for Na2S2O8 ?05:26
rjeffriesDocScrutinizer05 specs for your Neo900 are impressive. the work wpwrak is doing with BTLE might benefit your project.05:51
DocScrutinizer05hmm maybe, though I doubt we will have a BT module that can profit from any such work05:52
rjeffriesI really like how the project exposes several useful interfaces, including I2C and RS232. any chance you might expose SPI also05:53
rjeffriesmy thought is your design could incorportae the BT chip wpwrak has selected.05:53
DocScrutinizer05ooops, the RS232 should have gone already, we probably won't support that anymore05:53
rjeffriesok, not a biggie. re RS23205:54
rjeffriesSPI woudl be handy however05:54
DocScrutinizer05we'll see what can get done05:54
rjeffriessomebody on your project must be a serious audio nut05:54
DocScrutinizer05hmm, that's prolly me05:55
rjeffriesfair enough. on e thinks of a use case as a nice portable recording kit. using Audacity maybe05:55
DocScrutinizer05iirc I pushed Nikolaus to have line-in, back when 05:55
DocScrutinizer05yep, something like that should be possible05:56
DocScrutinizer05I'd honestly like to have built in stereo mic05:56
DocScrutinizer05though I'm not convinced about the mini-micro's quality for HiFi recording05:57
rjeffriesyeah that would be great. but a way to have two lavalier mics one for interview subject, one for interviewer, recorded on seperate tracks...05:57
rjeffriesI am not a music guy. think more of NPR-ish (apiratioal) podcasts05:58
DocScrutinizer05well, you got line-in for that. I will try to make sure it comes with micbias for power, and a proper mic pre-amp05:58
DocScrutinizer05but hey, probably you could use internal mic for one and BT headset mic for the other05:59
rjeffrieswhen do you exhaust supply of Nokia cases and keyboards05:59
DocScrutinizer05and mix up to a stereo track05:59
DocScrutinizer05cases are our least problem, they are abundance05:59
DocScrutinizer05though mostly of inferior quality06:00
rjeffriesDid Nokia keep a warehouse of them or some such06:00
DocScrutinizer05nah, chinese knock-offs06:00
rjeffriesI see. Had no idea...06:00
DocScrutinizer05in white, silver, gold, and even original black06:00
rjeffrieshope keyboard feel is not too bad...06:01
DocScrutinizer05we'll either use original Nokia domesheets, or build our own06:01
rjeffrieswhat is current state of software? sorry, I have not been following your project06:01
DocScrutinizer05keymat is a piece of plastic06:02
DocScrutinizer05we're not doing software06:02
rjeffrieslet's hope a serious community forms06:02
rjeffriesand does not piss in too many different directions.. LOL06:02
DocScrutinizer05there's FPTF06:03
DocScrutinizer05and replicant06:03
DocScrutinizer05and SHR which dos1 will take care about, he said06:03
DocScrutinizer05I see FPTF as the main battlefield and primary OS for Neo90006:04
rjeffriesmy image of Neo900 is it is a pocket computer tha  happens to also support a phone and mobile data LTE or HSPA and has a middling camet=ra as well06:04
DocScrutinizer05well, actually the OS is not called FPTF06:04
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's exactly what N900 and Neo900 are06:05
rjeffriesif they can get Maemo woring more or less that's pretty sweet06:07
rjeffriesdoes it look like 1 GB RAM will be feasible?06:07
DocScrutinizer05well, see the FPTF thread. I have no doubt we will get it working for the most part. There are a few nasty parts like audio management and particularly modem/call audio. And liblocation (GPS et al)06:08
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: looking to run Android on it too ;)06:08
DocScrutinizer051GB RAM depends on whether we can source the RAM chips06:09
DocScrutinizer05chances for that are way better when we ask for 1000 than when we only need 25006:09
rjeffriesok. all in good time. I think 1GB RAM will be very VERY sweet06:09
rjeffriesof course. I suspect you may get to N=1,00006:10
DocScrutinizer05well, for now we're idling at 21506:15
DocScrutinizer05long way till 100006:15
DocScrutinizer05LOL! NSA records 5E9 location update records of mobile phones worldwide - per DAY06:32
larscbasically almost everybody07:05
DocScrutinizer05maybe not08:32
DocScrutinizer05when that bot could calculate. I'd say08:32
DocScrutinizer05~5*10**9 / 200*10**608:32
DocScrutinizer05and conclude that americans alone can easily create 5 billion location updates per day08:33
DocScrutinizer05I have a hard time to see how they could collect any comprehensive coverage of cell handover / loation update data from German carriers08:35
DocScrutinizer05they'd need either a monitor RX network covering *all* BTS, or a spyware/tap to all carrier's location register servers (or whatstheterm)08:37
DocScrutinizer05anyway I will make sure you can monitor the Neo900 modem not only for active handover (LAC change, TX) but also for cell handover in same LAC, and particularly for *all* TX as well as all activation of modem-internal GPS08:40
DocScrutinizer05and of course make sure GPS is "deaf" when not enabled by user08:41
larsccarriers probably hand them the data on a silver tablet09:31
DocScrutinizer05not really. Rather they don't even notice. I just recall the standardized wiretap-interface that every carrier needs to provide to authorities09:58
DocScrutinizer05I bet NSA knows how to log in there09:58
DocScrutinizer05only carriers with iirc <1000 users don't need this interface10:00
DocScrutinizer05and best of all: the specs say carrier MUST NOT have any means to tell, who and when accessed which data via that interface10:02
wpwrakargh. you close your eyes for moment and you get this :-(10:05
wpwrakthat pcb eching kits is for the photochemical process. that's the ancient, messy approach. toner transfer skips all this.10:05
wpwrakfor photochemical you nees: special coated PCB + transparent positive/negative mask (transparent film) -> UV light (sunlight or special lamp) -> developer (chemical) -> and then the etching10:09
DocScrutinizer05you close your eyes? that's pretty silly! :-P10:09
wpwrakfor toner transfer it's: uncoated PCB (i.e., just copper, no chemicals) -> toner transfer paper (not transparent, with toner on it) -> heat (iron) -> etching10:10
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, i should stop doing that :)10:10
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (case colors) what, no "hello kitty" ? :)10:14
whitequarkwpwrak: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/12/new-usb-type-c-connector-is-smaller-reversible-supports-usb-3-1/10:15
DocScrutinizer05you forgot the proper cleaning and mechanical treatment of the PCB for toner transfer10:15
DocScrutinizer05while you can forget this for the already coated photoresist PCBs10:16
wpwrak(neo900) so there's no freemantle ? i thought that was your main direction ? or is FPTF another name for FM ?10:16
DocScrutinizer05a) fremantle   b) Fremantle Porting Task Force10:16
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (FM) hmm, in a world where everything is f* (free), you'd think they'd keep the "M" :)10:18
wpwrak(photoresist) well, true. but what happens if you need a small board ? can you even cut the critters properly ? and then, storing the part you didn't use. also, requiring photo-coating limits your board choices.10:21
wpwrakand if course it's quite incompatible with DIY CNC. luckily, that won't be nick's problem :)10:21
DocScrutinizer05just saying. When he got the photocoated PCB anyway, why not try it?10:22
wpwrakrjeffries: (usb c) they still don't show what it'll look like. seems that they don't know themselves. so i'd treat all that as vapourware so far. it's design goals, not a design.10:23
DocScrutinizer05HAH! my concept is further evolved already ;-P10:24
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: indeed, we already know that yours can't exist. we still have to make that step for the new USB-V :) ("-V" since it's vapour, and the letter is conveniently located right next to C)10:25
DocScrutinizer05it can't exist in your mind, since you fail to understand it10:25
wpwrakyeah, governed by the mercilessly strict laws of physics ;-)10:29
wpwrak(ptotocoated pcb) ah well, it'll be a fine mess if he tries to mix a photo process with non-photo ...10:29
DocScrutinizer05(physics) sure, there are clear physical laws that forbit lifting of elephants with a microfibre10:34
DocScrutinizer05forbid even10:34
DocScrutinizer05I'm sure you picked your parameters so the result of your funny evaluation was the one you hoped for10:35
DocScrutinizer05btw accusing me of projecting a *physically* impossible spec is rather insulting10:36
wpwrakyou should team up with Andrea Rossi, the great inventor of the cold fusion reactor :)10:36
wpwrakokay let10:36
DocScrutinizer05you should team up with a few other trolls I know10:36
wpwrak's say "implausible" :)10:36
wpwrakthe troll, pinnacle of evolution on the intertubes :)10:37
DocScrutinizer05the last "plausible" concern I heard from your side been "maybe I never seen what you'd call 'decent' earphone cords"10:38
DocScrutinizer05sorry I'm not wasting my time for gossip on that level10:38
DocScrutinizer05since I have other definition of "physically impossible"10:40
DocScrutinizer05I already explained how my concept could stand pulling forces that a microusb would answer with simply lifting off the PCB10:41
DocScrutinizer05and that's rugged enough in my book10:41
DocScrutinizer05but probably that's been just another few lines that got stuck in the magic spamfilter10:44
wpwrakdon't worry, i understand the benefits of connectors that just fall off when abused10:44
DocScrutinizer05I don't worry about your comments regarding this topic any more - don't worry10:45
DocScrutinizer05it's abslutely clear to me that they have no value for actually evaluating the concept10:47
DocScrutinizer05you got your notion and you wanna keep it and to do so you ignore stuff I *repeat* 3 times. Fine with me10:48
DocScrutinizer05on an unrelated topic: nobody suggested mixing of any processes10:53
DocScrutinizer05oops, sound related in a weird way10:53
wpwrakwell, that will happen if i guide him through a toner transfer process and you encourage him to get equipped for photochemical ;-)10:59
wpwraksure, you didn't come up with the idea. but i think we was clear from the preceding discussion what we were talking about toner transfer ...11:00
paul_boddieOn the PCB topic: http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-fab-in-a-box-kit.html13:10
wpwrakbasic toner transfer kit. i wonder what the green/white TRF foil is supposed to accomplish, though. once the toner is one the board, you can just proceed to etching ...13:22
wpwrakhmm. http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-green-trf-foil.html13:23
wpwraki'd say they need better toner transfer paper ;-)13:23
wpwrakin a way, the white one makes sense, though: http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/TRF%252dWHITE-Toner-Reactive-Foil-%252d-White.html13:24
wpwrakof course, if you really want to go through all that trouble and also add silk screen, you may approach the point where you're better off just getting your board industrially made13:24
wpwrakif you want the silk screen just for some small markings (e.g., pin 1 and such), you can also draw them with copper instead, avoiding any additional overhead13:25
wpwrakfor example, in the middle of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png13:26
wpwrakthe upper right corner of the large QFN (the MCU) has a little white triangle. that's the silk screen marker for pin 1. right outside of it is another green triangle. that's a copper. in a DIY board, i don't have the silk screen but i do of course have the copper13:27
wpwrakand when we look at the real board: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg13:28
wpwrakthere's that little triangle, in the same corner as the white dot on the package, i.e., i put the chip with the correct orientation :)13:38
rjeffriesWhat does this progression of projects tell us, if anything: OpenMoko, Ben Nanonote, Neo900? 15:37
rjeffriesThose three projects had the goal of radical open-ness. For OpenMoko and Ben Nanonote, very VERY few dogs ate the (delicious...) dog food. Can Neo900 change this dynamic? One hopes so... 15:40
paul_boddieHave you looked at this Improv stuff, rjeffries?15:50
wpwraki wouldn't include the Ben in that progression. the ben is a different branch (still closely related). it's more like openmoko - gta04 - neo90016:07
wpwrakand yes, eating one's own dog food was an issue with openmoko. not sure about the ben - i used / am using it for things while i used all my openmoko phones maybe for two days in total.16:09
larscI tried to use my openmoko16:10
larscbut it most of the time didn't work ;)16:11
rohlarsc: i just do not like phones... but i think that has nothing to do with openmoko but the fact that phones are massively intrusive, broken, old way of communicating and the quality of service is that shitty now, that id rather write than speak16:46
paul_boddieAgreed: if you buy a phone, you don't want to have to keep another one to actually use as a phone.17:37
paul_boddiewolfspraul: Hope you don't mind that I updated the purchasing details on qi-hardware.com for the NanoNote.19:44
whitequarkhuh, this is cool19:57
whitequarka russian smartphone with lcd and eink displays on different sides19:57
whitequarkallegedly first in the world19:57
dos1hah seems like I'm one of those few20:04
dos1I'm using gta02 as main phone for five years, with short n900 break20:05
dos1looking forward to replace it with neo90020:06
wpwrakdos1: rafa would be the other one, i think :) (using gta02)20:16
wpwrakwhitequark: make it just e-ink and we can talk about bold decisions :)20:17
nicksydney_ /msg NickServ identify Tonypet2012__22:07
whitequarkthat was silly...22:07
whitequarknicksydney: you better change that password now ;)22:08
nicksydneyshit !! didn't see that22:08
nicksydneyi did changes just now22:08
nicksydneyhot stupid i am22:08
nicksydneygrrrrr.....mind is everywhere :(22:08
nicksydneyswitch to using Quassel not from web irc22:09
nicksydneyphew ! lucky i did it on this channel 22:09
nicksydneywpwrak: how are you22:10
wpwrakhope that password isn't used anywhere else :)22:20
wpwrakawake ;-)22:20
wpwrakhow did last evening's shopping raid go ?22:20
wpwrakand regarding that PCB-making kit: that one is for a different process. not toner transfer but photochemical.22:22
wpwrakside-by-side comparison toner transfer and photochemical:22:23
wpwrakprint on: plastified paper | transparent film (slides)22:23
wpwrakraw PCB: must be clean (scrubbed) | must have photo-sensitive emulsion (you either buy it that way or go deeper into chemistry and apply it on a clean PCB on a dark room)22:24
wpwraktransfer: heat | UV light source (lamp or sun)22:24
wpwrakdevelopment: n/a | chemical bath22:25
wpwrakif it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board22:26
wpwraketching is the same22:26
whitequarkresist I've worked on is developed with weak NaOH--not that corrosive22:26
whitequarkand you can just scrape it off with sandpaper22:26
wpwrakah, drilling / curring: before or after etching | i think only after22:26
whitequarkto reuse the board that is. or acetone, as you would use to remove it after successful development22:27
wpwrakwhitequark: (development) yes, it's nothing evil. just one more step22:27
wpwrak(above) s/curring/cutting/22:28
wpwrakand let me rephrase the cancellation procedure ...22:28
wpwrakif it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board (if buying pre-coated) or clean and re-coat (if self-coating)22:29
nicksydneywpwrak: too late with the kids screaming and shouting ..didnt' get the chance...have to go tomororow22:29
nicksydneywpwrak: you referring to the PCB making kit from Jaycar website ?22:29
whitequarknicksydney: my personal experience with both toner transfer and resist (coating it myself):22:30
whitequarktoner transfer is wacky, and extremely hard to get right. traces would routinely be squashed and/or come off with the base paper easily.22:31
whitequarkresist is wacky, too, although much less so than toner. it's much much easier to maintain trace structure and generally get fine details right22:32
wpwrakwhitequark: seems that you need to clean your PCB better :) or vary temperature / pressure. if the toner comes off, it didn't stick properly in the first place22:32
wpwrakwhitequark: how do you expose ? sun ? uv lamp ? box of lamps ?22:33
whitequarkhowever, traces (the hardened resist part) still occasionally come off. I did coat PCBs myself, so while I really cleaned them thoroughly and in various ways, seems like it was not enough.22:34
whitequarkbut, I liked resist much much more.22:34
whitequarkwpwrak: uv lamp, the ones you use for checking money22:34
whitequarkit cost maybe $15 and worked amazingly22:34
wpwrakhehe, so you have them too ;-)22:34
whitequarktalking about toner. I performed dozens of experiments, and I wasn't able to reliably perform the toner transfer trick.22:35
wpwrakand how do you make sure the film stays on the board ?22:35
whitequarktransparent plexiglass, it's transparent to UV too22:35
whitequark(unlike real glass)22:35
whitequarkthe one I've got for cheap was something you would use (apparently) for hanging A4 sheets on walls. diplomas, licenses, that kind of thing22:36
wpwrak(toner) it took me a while to find the right mixture but now it's pretty painless. laminator helps a lot of stabilizing the process. with the iron there's too much variation. (well, unless you have a female assistant for that. it seems that women just grok ironing while men don't. at least that's what a few experiments with friends showed.)22:37
whitequarkplus it was already folded in two (like this: =====>) so it was enough to put the PCB with film inside and place something moderately heavy to the other side22:37
whitequarkI've used laminator too22:37
whitequarkit did very slight difference compared to (clothing) iron, mainly in that traces were squished less22:37
whitequarkbut they still were, and results were crap in general22:38
wpwrak(plexiglass) good. cheaper than UV-transparent special glasses :)22:38
whitequarkalso, make sure you're etching it right. I've frequently had my boards overetched where the etchant ate the traces from the sides22:40
whitequarkthis was especially prominent with toner transfer, more reason to stay away from it :)22:40
whitequarkfor etchant, consider CuSO4+(NH4)2S2O8, it's way less messy than FeCl322:41
wpwrakwhat acid do you use ? i had some trouble with FeCl but wit HCl + H2O2 over-etching is rarely an issue22:42
whitequarkFeCl3. as mentioned both HCl and H2O2 are hard to obtain here.22:42
wpwrak(rarely) unless you make an extremely potent mix, like using 35% peroxide undiluted. that'll etch your board in seconds (while the acid boils), but ...22:42
nicksydneywhitequark: thanks for the tips...will write it down somewhere so I don't forget 22:43
wpwrakthis is a case of using overly aggressive etchant: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/rush-job.jpg22:43
whitequarknicksydney: irclog.whitequark.org22:43
nicksydneywhitequark: ahh yeah didn't think about that ;)22:44
whitequarkwpwrak: oooh yes, I've seen that such a lot of times22:44
nicksydneywife is an expert in ironing so should not have any problem with using iron :)22:45
whitequarknicksydney: at the end, I could not get any success at all with double-sided boards and drilling is a PAIN, so I've stopped doing PCBs at home altogether22:45
wpwrakbut with a tamer solution there aren't any problems. i even sometimes have to leave the board in a lot longer than what it would take to free the traces since there's some stubborn patch somewhere. and never had anything unfriendly happen there.22:45
whitequarkfor etching, it also helps to: 1) place board vertically so debris falls down, 2) make a flow of current to move solution along22:46
wpwraka little CNC mill helps a lot with the drilling pain ;-) also, only using SMT parts helps :)22:46
nicksydneywhitequark: i'm planning to use the PCB for smd components don't have drilling or antyhing like taht22:46
wpwrakyou may still need a few holes for vias22:47
nicksydneywhitequark: good top about placing the board vertically22:47
whitequarkvias, yes22:47
wpwrakvertical = more elaborate setup22:47
whitequarkcontainers for vertical etching are surprisingly hard to find, so yes22:47
nicksydneyif i put everything on a single side not using vias possible ?22:47
whitequarkvias tend to get small on modern boards with lots of SMT, so you have a tiny drill22:47
whitequarkyou need to position it precisely and not break... that's quite a problem with manual or assisted drilling22:48
wpwrakfor etching, i use glass jars from the supermarket, with an "airtight" plastic lid. they're small and have a flat bottom. the whole setup sits in a larger glass basin, the sort you may use to make a lasage. that way, if anything spills, it will be contained22:49
wpwraki move the boards around with wooden skewers, the kind you use for grilling22:50
wpwrak(drilling) yes, they break ... one advantage of manual drilling is that you can drill at an angle, offsetting any error in the front/back registration22:51
whitequarkOR you can see it as a disadvantage, because it's too easy to screw a normal board up22:52
wpwraknicksydney: IF you can fit the whole layout on one side, you don't need vias. but even relatively simple things can require one or two traces that cross others. but yes, if you can design for single-layer, that's preferable.22:52
nicksydneywpwrak: for testing purposes will make it on single layer and once i have success than would do it double layer22:52
whitequarkas a bottom line: either I'm a screwup in general, or wpwrak has superhuman capabilities in pcb making22:53
wpwrakwhitequark: yeah, i like my CNC mill :) nice edges, all the holes where they belong, virtually no drill breakage. and i have found a drill and wire combo that matches perfectly :)22:53
whitequarknicksydney: double layer is extremely hard to position properly22:53
whitequarkprobably less so with photoprocess, as you do not need to move the pcb around (you can just flip the flexiglass+pcb+film sandwich)22:54
wpwrakwhitequark: a number of friends who had never made PCBs before used my process and got reasonably good results within 1-2 tries22:54
whitequarkwpwrak: trace width?22:54
wpwrakthat was a slightly larger board. lemme check ...22:54
whitequarkat my best, half of my QFN pads were good.22:54
whitequarkI don't consider that "reasonably good", at all.22:54
whitequarkbut it's entirely possible that I just still suck at making PCBs, even after dozens of attempts22:55
wpwrak10 mil traces, 10 mil clearance22:56
wpwraki use now 0.2 mm / 0.2 mm, so about 8 mil / 8 mil22:56
wpwrakwhitequark: it's possible. it's even reproducible :) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/boards-so-far.jpg22:58
wpwrakwhitequark: what sucked the most was soldering things next to large ground planes, like in atusb. and of course the gazillion vias needed for RF.22:58
wpwrakso these boards are about as far as i'd go. no fine-pitch BGA :)22:59
wpwrak(double-sided) for toner transfer: if you have a good aim, you can do it by just by shining light through the sandwich to align the sheets. it's usually accurate enough. you can also pre-align the sheets and insert the pcb (if you cut the pcb after etching, which is what you'd do without a cnc mill)23:01
whitequarkwpwrak: ok, I officially suck at making PCBs then. :/23:01
wpwrakpre-aligned sheets tend to be very precise23:01
nicksydneywpwrak: this -->  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/boards-so-far.jpg is awesome ! :) 23:01
wpwrakif the board really gets very hairy, like these RF board or something big but with fine details, like anelok, you can do one side at a time: toner transfer the top, cover the back with adhesive tape, etch, then do the bottom23:03
nicksydneyok guys all this electronic porn is making me not able to work ... going to do some paid work first and be back later :)23:03
wpwraktakes some patience but yields good precision23:03
pcercueiqi-bot: hey, wake up23:48
pcercueiI pushed commits. Do your job and announce them D:23:48
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