#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2013-12-03

dos1we've just got slashdoted00:05
DocScrutinizer05HAH!00:14
DocScrutinizer05and wpwrak is missing all the fun00:15
dos1hah, didn't notice that he left00:16
dos1wrote it here mainly for him :D00:16
hellekinthere was a storm.  Maybe his connection was lost.04:11
DocScrutinizer05I heard "brownout"04:34
DocScrutinizer05[2013-12-03 00:01:15] <wpwrak> have to quit for while and try to bring one of my graphics cards after the brownout ...04:34
DocScrutinizer05[2013-12-03 00:01:16] <-- wpwrak has left this server (Quit: Leaving).04:34
sanderrDocScrutinizer0, doc1: Congrats with the 200-mark! And the slashdot article might even help reaching the 1000-mark.08:57
DocScrutinizer05hmm, don't see that happen yet, but sure it will help08:58
DocScrutinizer05I more hope for secondary articles triggered from /. - and most I hope for the chain reaction effect as described in https://blogs.fsfe.org/pboddie/?p=59608:59
DocScrutinizer05potential customers noticing that we reached 200, thus felling more "safe2 when they jump on the train as well09:00
DocScrutinizer05feeling*09:01
DocScrutinizer05psychology of the masses: "others were excited and joined, so why should't I, this MUST be something awesome"09:03
DocScrutinizer05you can even force this by spreading rumours about timelines approaching where it will "be too late"09:04
DocScrutinizer05but we won't do this yet09:04
DocScrutinizer05first we will showcase a fully working first prototype maybe february09:06
sanderrDocScrutinizer05: That's how I got into the NanoNote.09:07
DocScrutinizer05we might reach 500 til then. Then announce the window will close soon and open up true preorders, to catch up another maybe 50009:07
sanderr(I'm reading Paul's blog post for a bit)09:09
DocScrutinizer05it's nice09:09
sanderrIndeed! I agree that the only sustainable way forward with freedom is with open hard- and software.09:11
sanderrBut the way you guys juggle electronics design and programming is way over my head. I only get 50-60% of it.09:13
sanderrStill, it's fun and interesting to learn.09:13
sanderrAnd I will do my part in promoting the project by pointing interested people to this initiative.09:14
DocScrutinizer05thanks! :-)09:16
DocScrutinizer05hehe, maybe I should mumble something like "of course those 350 1GB RAM chips will go to the first 350 preorders. Let's see if we can get more of them"11:03
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw is there any more certainty about particular component choices?11:04
whitequarklike specific supported wifi/bt standards11:04
DocScrutinizer05no11:04
DocScrutinizer05we know we will use 320AIC34 audio mixer, P*S8 modem (probably), we know quite a bit about some sensors etc we'll use11:05
DocScrutinizer05but WLAN for example hasn't been a topic yet for evaluation and/or sourcing11:07
DocScrutinizer05in 3 months there might be better modules available than today11:07
whitequarkI see11:08
whitequarkhttps://github.com/search?q=fixme+race+condition&ref=cmdform&type=Code11:39
whitequarkC: 437,426 results :p11:39
wpwrakaah, baaack ! for once, the brute-force miracle cure worked12:07
wpwrak(had one of my video cards not come up under X, so i was down from triple-head to single-head. it did this in the past but usually snapped out of it after a few reboots. but not this time. fortunately, a distribution upgrade cured this)12:09
wpwrakhmm, is it just me or is gitorious having problems ? (502 Bad Gateway)12:10
paul_boddiewpwrak: gitorius looks OK to me, but it should be quite local to me, too.12:18
eintopfwpwrak: welcome back :)12:20
wpwrakah, now i can reach it, too. must have been a glitch.12:22
paul_boddieLooking at the gitorius DMCA takedown notices is interesting: https://gitorious.org/gitorious/dmca12:46
wpwrak"state under penalty of perjury" hmm ;-)12:48
paul_boddieNot that interesting, though. Still, people sending such notices should know that "copywritten" is something different. Sheesh!12:49
paul_boddieI wonder if the "decompiled source code" for EVE Online was the whole thing. The server stuff is in Python as far as I'm aware.12:50
paul_boddieIf it was, you'd have to wonder how it made its way onto gitorius.12:50
wpwraknaw,they just saw the file names match "ps3*"12:50
paul_boddieWas the 502 error you got an nginx thing? "502 Bad Gateway" is surely the war cry of Web 2.0.12:53
wpwrakyes12:53
wpwraktoshiba just bought OCZ. cute: http://evilazrael.net/ocz.png13:43
kristianpaulwpwrak: what you have against SSD? :)14:01
kristianpaulwd also is buying http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/mas/wd-virident-ssd-acquisition/14:02
wpwrakSSDs ? i think i would have bought one by now if it wasn't for the reputation they got mainly because of OCZ :)14:02
kristianpaulyeao SSDs, sorry14:02
kristianpaullol14:02
wpwrak"virident" sounds like personal hygiene product :)14:04
whitequarkSSDs are awesome :p14:04
wpwrak"virus-free teeth". i think marketers haven't picked up that one yet14:04
whitequarkyou are extra sure you will make those backups14:05
wpwrakas awesome as this flight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182AepOJjMs14:07
wpwrak(at the beginning it looks a bit like an sr-71 but it's a b-52)14:07
wpwraknicksydney: btw, the laser printer i use for toner transfer is an old hp lj 1320. they're some USD 100 on ebay. the toner transfer will contaminate the printer with time, so you don't want a "nice" one for that job16:28
wpwrakeven better would be a lj 2100, c4170a. that's an even older model that worked even better. about the same price used.16:29
DocScrutinizer05o.O17:17
DocScrutinizer05PCB etching?17:17
wpwraktrying to get him hooked, yup :)17:33
DocScrutinizer05always a mess17:34
DocScrutinizer05I prefer spending a 50 bucks for a 160*100 dualside with via every day17:35
wpwrakyou can't beat the processing time :)17:38
wpwrakfinish design at 6 pm, print at 7, etch at 8, have the board smt'ed and running at 10 :)17:39
wpwraktakes a little longer if the board is very delicate since you have to do the two sides separately. but still. it's fast. especially if you don't have an affordable "next business day" pcb-making service in town17:42
DocScrutinizer05then rather mill than etch17:47
wpwraktoo unreliable17:48
wpwrakhmm, can't find the pictures i took of one of those experiments :(17:55
wpwrakah, here: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/cnc/pcb-1st/17:56
rjeffrieswpwrak maybe your work on bluetooth (when/IF it happens) might be leveraged by the Neo900 team? Evidently that product will not include wi-fi (it seems)17:59
wpwrakapparently, they will. but i don't know what module.17:59
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: do you already have a list of wlan candidates ?17:59
DocScrutinizer05see feasibility study18:00
DocScrutinizer05page 14 iirc18:00
DocScrutinizer05meh, 18, or scrap that18:00
DocScrutinizer05we also might use wl1251/7118:01
DocScrutinizer05based modules18:01
DocScrutinizer05known to work, somewhat18:01
DocScrutinizer05kernel drivers RE'ed and augmented to do injection and monitor18:02
DocScrutinizer05still closed blob firmware18:02
DocScrutinizer05afaik18:02
DocScrutinizer05wl1251 used in N90018:02
wpwrakbut the kernel driver is open ?18:03
DocScrutinizer05yep, the re'ed one is18:03
DocScrutinizer05search for n900 injection driver18:04
DocScrutinizer05or somesuch18:04
DocScrutinizer05I bought it when they guy still asked for a donation18:04
DocScrutinizer05-y18:04
DocScrutinizer05so I dunno how it's called today18:04
wpwrakhttp://www.ti.com/product/wl1271-tiwi-ble "not recommended for new designs" it's haunting you :(18:04
DocScrutinizer05dang!18:05
DocScrutinizer05always same bullshit18:05
DocScrutinizer05when it becomes available for aftermarket, it's already EOL18:05
DocScrutinizer05:-/18:06
wpwrakironically, mouser have it as "New Product: New from this manufacturer."18:07
wpwrakmaybe this is the answer: "Special Note18:08
wpwrakTI no longer supports new WiLink6 software driver development. The LSR TiWi-BLE module is still an active product and supported by LSR."18:08
DocScrutinizer05yep18:09
DocScrutinizer05not too bad18:09
wpwrakmouser will get some on xmas :) more to arrive in february. nice lead times ;-)18:09
DocScrutinizer05be happy! ;-P18:11
DocScrutinizer05could be worse18:11
DocScrutinizer05nah, it seems there are a few choices now, yet to evaluate them all18:12
DocScrutinizer0521118:13
wpwraki wonder how they get these lead times .. even if the factory was on the moon and they require cash first, the round-trip would only have about 10 weeks.18:13
DocScrutinizer05*shrug*18:13
DocScrutinizer05maybe they first need to build the factory?18:14
DocScrutinizer05no idea18:14
wpwrakhmm yes, drive a truck to the hinterlands and deliver a first batch of sticks and stones. wait until they master them. then proceed with simple metals ...18:15
paul_boddieMaybe that Chinese Lunar rover is scouting out places for factories.18:17
DocScrutinizer05you missed the /. fun18:18
wpwrak"Jade Rabbit Corp., 123 Dust Rd., Bay of Rainbows, Moon, PRC"18:20
wpwrakdoesn't sound too different from today's names18:20
rjeffriesWill Neo900 support bluetooth? ideally, BTLE...19:14
DocScrutinizer05BT sure, BTLE maybe, not yet decided19:50
wpwrakshortwave radio would also be nice. imagine "lost" if they had had that: pick up any cell phone, call the rescue services, leave it on to send a beacon, happy rescue a few hours later, let the NTSB worry about the technical details. all efficiently done in one episode19:59
paul_boddiewpwrak: Spoiler alert!21:09
dos1Paul Boddie... Paul Boddie...21:10
dos1oh, you're that guy from the blog!21:10
paul_boddieAnother spoiler: it's the same guy! ;-)21:11
paul_boddieBut I have to blog about something.21:11
dos1wonderful posts about Neo900 and Nanonote, one of the best I've seen on the web21:12
paul_boddieWell, I knew I'd get into trouble if I got the details wrong. ;-)21:12
dos1very informative and to the point, thanks a lot :)21:12
paul_boddieHave you tried to get it onto LWN?21:12
dos1nope, but good suggestion21:13
paul_boddieIt's worth a shot given that they had Improv featured a few days ago.21:15
wpwrakthat's a nice idea ! lwn certainly draws a much more high-profile audience than slashdot21:17
paul_boddieWell, more high-brow is perhaps how I'd put it.21:19
wpwrakthat works, too :)21:24
wpwrakNickSydney: heya, still like the slider idea ?21:51
NickSydneyyeah21:54
NickSydneysorry didn't get a chance to chat and look into the project as been troubleshooting issues with day job21:55
wpwraklet's see then what the list thinks about it21:55
NickSydneywpwrak: the slider that i've seen in dev boards are capacitive sensor ... is that correct ?21:55
wpwrakbtw, this would also be a nice sub-project to get started with experimenting with making PCBs and such :)21:56
NickSydneywpwrak: yeah that's why i'm excited :)21:56
NickSydneysomething like this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r_8z0pAQ-o ?21:56
wpwrakyes. lemme see if it can find a description of that design ...21:56
NickSydneywpwrak: the only issue with PCB making for me is the laser jet..which is next to impossible for me to buy :( as it's expensive financially for me21:57
NickSydneywpwrak: any other idea you can think of making your own PCB without laser jet ?21:57
wpwrakused laserjets are some USD 10021:57
NickSydneywpwrak: unless I make PCB via company like seeesstudio :)21:57
NickSydneywpwrak: used laserjet in this part of the world is VERY hard to get 21:57
NickSydneywpwrak: let's see what i can come up with :)21:58
NickSydneywpwrak: i find kicad harder to use than Eagle as newbie21:59
wpwrakbah, you can even find a used 1320 here. even only around USD 100. almost suspiciously low :)21:59
wpwraki can't compare - never used eagle.22:00
NickSydneywpwrak: need to practise a bit with kicad22:02
wpwrakhmm, freescale don't have any much material on touch sensor design :(22:05
wpwrakthe section in the quick reference manual gives you an idea, though.  dsv klqr  then chapter 10, page 10522:05
NickSydneywpwrak: TI or Microchip ?22:10
NickSydneyI've seen Microchip demo before if I remember correctly22:10
wpwrakfreescale :)22:11
wpwrakbut yes, all the vendors have somethign :)22:11
NickSydneysay for example you go ahead and add touch...will that means there will extra chip for that ?22:13
NickSydneyor we can hook it up using the available pin on M022:13
wpwrakthe kl25 has a touch sensor controller. it's all in my post :)22:15
NickSydneywpwrak: very nice :)22:20
NickSydneywpwrak: i like this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/touch.pdf22:21
wpwrakand if you get a frdm-kl25z, you can even try the sensor without extra hw (well, but the sensor itself)22:22
wpwrakbut you'll of course want the oled, too, which can be powered from the frdm as well, but it'll need a wee bit of local circuitry22:23
NickSydneythe graph on the right side of that picture is that showing voltage reading ?22:23
NickSydneywpwrak: i have the oled that i bought from buy-display few months ago .. i knew it will come in handy22:23
wpwraksomething readings ;-) basically capacitance, however it is determined22:23
wpwrakoh, that one's a monster ;-)22:24
wpwrak(if you're talking about the 5")22:24
wpwrakusing the same as in anelok will also allow to determine the effect of interferences22:36
wpwrakah, farnell has thinner than 0.4 mm pcbs without excessive lead times. not a lot, though22:40
wpwrakbut they've definitely won the price for the most obscure location in their product category tree: pcbs are under "Semiconductors - Tools"22:44
NickSydneywpwrak: no i do have the oled (not the 5")22:46
NickSydneywpwrak: initially i was going to use it to practise for building a LCD driver board ... as i'm obsessed with display :)22:46
wpwrakoh, you have the 1.3" model ? great !22:48
wpwrakit's extremely easy to get it to work. i was pleasantly surprised22:49
wpwrakanelok/dui/ has the board i made for testing oled and wheel with an external cpu22:50
NickSydneycool...will take a look at that22:52
NickSydneyok going back to work now..catch you later22:52
wpwrakhmm, i think farnell are lying. these "ultra-thin" pcbs are in fact normal ones. you'd think after all these aeons of being neighbours, they'd have figured out how to read french data sheets ...22:52
wpwrak(i.e., those "35 um" are not the pcb but the copper on it22:55
DocScrutinizer05"Semiconductors - Tools" LOL22:58
whitequarkwpwrak: um, 35um PCBs?22:58
whitequarkwhat were you smoking? :p22:59
whitequarkthat's twice thinner than household aluminum foil23:00
paul_boddieIsn't aluminium foil part of the smoker's smoking equipment? ;-)23:14
paul_boddieI was going to ask about laser cutting of stuff for prototyping purposes. Anyone here with experiences of that?23:14
DocScrutinizer05I have some laser-cut stencils here, which look pretty nice23:15
DocScrutinizer05for prototyping however...23:16
paul_boddieI wondered if you could do some kind of keyboard/keymat with the right material, engraving and even partial cutting.23:18
DocScrutinizer05well, a lot of PC keyboard keycaps are laser-engraved23:20
DocScrutinizer05rather: burned23:21
DocScrutinizer05anyway sounds almost like an XY-problem23:22
paul_boddieYes, the legends/labels should be straightforward, but I wondered about the ability to make the keymat flex "precisely" and thus activate only one key in the matrix beneath.23:23
DocScrutinizer05IOW, depends on your laser, your design, but most of all on your material for the keymat23:24
paul_boddieYes, interesting link time: http://www.abatek.com/technologies/surfaces-design-a-protection.html23:24
paul_boddie(From a previous trawl of the Internet.)23:24
Action: DocScrutinizer05 has to go afk, before grumpy mood gets obvious23:25
Action: DocScrutinizer05 needs food23:25
DocScrutinizer05and COFFEE23:25
paul_boddieAlways a good idea. Well, maybe not right before bed (unless you're Finnish). ;-)23:27
DocScrutinizer05JRTZ23:28
DocScrutinizer05it's errrr almost lunchtime here23:28
DocScrutinizer05so CET+1223:28
DocScrutinizer05which doesn't really help with finding food23:29
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