#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2013-12-02

DocScrutinizer05ever wondered what happened to wikireader? ;-)00:38
rjeffrieswhat did hapen to wikireader?00:46
hellekinwho is going to 30c3?00:49
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: should i fear karmic damage if i answer this in the negative ? :)01:02
DocScrutinizer05prolly not, though it could give you a laugh when you bother to find out01:03
wpwrakjust tell us what you found :)01:03
DocScrutinizer05well, last I heard been Medion selling then at Conrad01:04
DocScrutinizer05them*01:04
DocScrutinizer05even seen*01:04
wpwrakwow. they're still alive ? impressive01:04
DocScrutinizer05been quite a while ago01:04
DocScrutinizer05Medion is known for cheap crappy hardware01:05
DocScrutinizer05a disgrace01:05
wpwrakwasn't that pearl ?01:06
DocScrutinizer05those too01:06
DocScrutinizer05http://www.medion.com/de/searchProduct?searchTerm=wikireader gone01:07
DocScrutinizer05http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/876441/01:08
DocScrutinizer05sold out01:10
DocScrutinizer05I should've gotten one while they were still available, for hysterical raisins01:10
dos1pulster has them01:15
dos1http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn - this was last I heard about it01:15
wpwrakpulster, the horn of plenty01:16
dos1"We want to raise money to buy as many WikiReaders as we can that are currently in overstock from its manufacturer."01:16
dos1"We have an agreement with the manufacturer to buy the overstock devices (...) as the company is liquidating its assets. "01:17
wpwrakouch. 3k/232k. "Education – San Francisco". apparently not :)01:17
dos1"We launched Sept 1st a 3-month pilot with 500 devices in three schools in India, South Africa and Mexico. We received grant funds to supplement the Indiegogo funds and additional funds from the Wikimedia Foundation."01:18
dos1update from 17 days ago01:18
dos1"The manufacturer is offering them to us for $15 USD a piece."01:18
wpwrak(extra funds) good.01:19
rjeffrieswikireader was a kinda/sorta interesting concept. Used an Epson MCU if memory serves. And a FORTH based OS?01:19
dos1it's 49 EUR on pulster :D01:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 11/2013 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/51106cf01:29
DocScrutinizer05well, the CPU might be the same we initially picked01:38
DocScrutinizer05the ID changed a lot, away from clamshell with "proper" hw kbd to that awful c-ts only thing01:38
DocScrutinizer05and I doubt they kept the USB footprint I designed in for hw-hackers01:39
DocScrutinizer05o/01:41
rjeffriesDocScrutinizer05 have you and your team looked at what Jolla is doing, one assumes? They have some cool ideas.02:07
DocScrutinizer05oh, they do?02:10
DocScrutinizer05which ones?02:11
DocScrutinizer05BustZone tivoized bootloader?02:11
DocScrutinizer05honestly I haven't seen any cool idea they didn't copy from OM or N900 or GTA04, so far. Which idea do you refer to in particular?02:13
DocScrutinizer05alas I don't have any detailed technical info about the device either, and my device still is waiting shipment02:14
DocScrutinizer05so I don't even know how they implemented their flavor of I2C based expansion connector02:15
DocScrutinizer05(tbh ours isn't finalized either ;-D)02:15
DocScrutinizer05rjeffries: ^^^02:16
wpwrakah, those backs. they need a bit of explaining in the case of jolla - from what appears i the press, one may think they act as "keys" to unlock functions the device already has.02:35
DocScrutinizer05yeah, pretty silly02:56
DocScrutinizer05they actually might act as "keys" (actaully certs) to download themes or whatever02:57
DocScrutinizer05but I dunno if they do or not02:57
DocScrutinizer05the idea itself is disgusting, particularly since this would imply that you can't do your own skins/themes02:59
DocScrutinizer05for all I know TOH simply has an I2C and power connector to the device03:02
wpwrakas far as i understand what they're doing, these backs actually have real functionality. it's just that one can easily think they don't.03:13
rjeffriesMy reading is that the innovative bit is teh I2C and power connector. The NFC thing for themes is a yawner (to me)03:18
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: yes, they have something that is connected to the mainboard via I2C03:18
rjeffriesI appreciate the idea of a handset where third parties can add a hardwar eback with extra functionality03:19
DocScrutinizer05well, then you will love Neo90003:19
rjeffriesa power connection is also cool. think extra backs with extra battery capacity e.g.03:19
wpwrakah yes, two-way battery03:19
DocScrutinizer05we had that before jolla even disclosed "details" about their TOH thing03:19
wpwrakthey were probably busy patenting it :)03:20
rjeffriesI hope Neo900 does well. 03:20
rjeffries?? TOH ??03:20
rjeffriesthe other half -- got it03:20
DocScrutinizer05the difference: we also try to offer USB concurrent to I2C03:20
wpwrak(hope) so do we all ;-)03:21
rjeffriesJolla and Neo900 need not represent a zero sum game03:21
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: (patenting) too late, GTA04 represents prior art03:24
rjeffriesDocScrutinizer05 on Neo900 do you support USB UTG maybe?03:28
rjeffriess/UTG/OTG/03:28
DocScrutinizer05OTG maybe, definitely proper USB-host though03:38
DocScrutinizer05OTG prolly comes for free03:38
nicksydneywpwrak: git pull the new changes and tried building the anelok/case getting errror04:43
nicksydneywpwrak: http://pastebin.com/fBbMJe5r04:43
wpwrakhmm, maybe something's wrong with your pos.inc05:04
wpwrakcd anelok/cad; rm pos.inc; make pos.inc05:05
wpwrakafterwards, there should be a line in it (among many others) that says  #define SW1_X 67.5000mm05:05
nicksydneythe only pos.inc i can find is inside ybox/case05:11
nicksydneyexecuting make inside /cad give error -->make: *** No rule to make target `../hw/anelok-all.pos', needed by `pos.inc'.  Stop.05:14
wpwrakah, that's the root of the problem then. you need to generate anelok-all.pos manually (just like you did for the y-box)05:17
wpwrakthat's one of the dependencies that really really wants those command-line options back ...05:18
nicksydneyok seems like it's doing something after doing the manual steps of File > Fabrication Outputs > Modules Position05:40
nicksydneywpwrak: does this look right .. http://pastebin.com/P0dXZPxt ?05:42
nicksydneywpwrak: running 'make view' and ^D give this --> http://snag.gy/VzUNz.jpg05:44
nicksydneywpwrak: will be interesting to change the rotary encoder to something touch slider :)05:45
wpwrakyes, both the toolpath generation and the STL look good08:12
wpwrak(touch slider) you mean something iPod-classic-ish ?08:13
DocScrutinizer05hah, already three today09:26
DocScrutinizer056 more to go09:27
DocScrutinizer05or 806 more09:27
DocScrutinizer05this preudo-preorder concept works amazingly well, particularly for the little effort it took to come up with the idea09:28
DocScrutinizer05pseudo even09:29
wpwrakindeed, it works amazingly well09:41
DocScrutinizer055, 4 more09:57
wpwrakwow. if you go on like this you'll hit 1000 shortly after new year :)10:01
DocScrutinizer05that would be fine10:02
DocScrutinizer05197 ;-)10:47
DocScrutinizer05btw seems like the rate was sufficient to hit 1000 a few days before xmas11:09
DocScrutinizer05of course you also could extrapolate the trend ;-P11:09
DocScrutinizer05and make a fortune at stock exchange when you found the correct algo11:10
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: 2 to go12:23
wpwrakbetter make room in that barn to stock components :)12:24
nicksydneywpwrak: when i do 'make gen' now it comes with this error --> http://snag.gy/nwC5L.jpg12:52
nicksydneywpwrak: (re: slider)...was thinking what if using touch slider where user can slide their finger on a surface rather than using their finger to roll12:53
wpwrak(make gen) hmm, seems that you tried that somewhere where there's no corresponding .pro file. in which directory are you ? also, i don't think there are any cases where "make gen" would actually do something useful at the moment. (and it may expect these command-line options, which don't exist now)12:55
wpwrak(slider) so moving the a more square form factor ? hmm yes, possible. ideally, you'd squeeze this on top of the bottom part of the OLED. that would be very compact. but then you'd have the field interact with the OLED.12:57
nicksydneydoing it from the /hw folder13:10
wpwrak(hw) okay, then you run into the command-line options issue. in any case, it wouldn't do anything useful. not sure if i ever developed that "gen" target in any project. maybe it's just a stub all over the place :)13:12
nicksydneyslider:  the use case i was thinking of was like...the user slider the finger to move the "cursor" like in your UI to point to alphabets ....and to hit "enter" / "confirm" can either a small button or take hands off the slider for example say 0.5sec13:12
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: 200-113:12
nicksydneywpwrak: (hw) ok no worries thought it will do something..just testing :)13:12
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i wonder what happened. did the talk hit some popular site ?13:13
nicksydneywpwrak: make brd and sch works fine in /hw so no drama there13:13
wpwraknicksydney: these are the important ones :) most of the rest tries to generate files that would require these command-line options. if you generate the files manually, they'll pick up things from there.13:14
wpwraknicksydney: so the typical use is: make -n <whatever>  see what you have to do, do it manually, then  make <whatever>  to complete the operation13:14
wpwrakbut yes, very messy :(13:14
dos1wpwrak: I don't see anything interesting in analytics13:15
dos1pretty standard traffic13:15
dos1I guess maybe people registered in newsletter (almost 600) are jumping in :)13:15
wpwrakdos1: maybe just a fortuitous statistics fluctuation13:15
nicksydneywpwrak: or what about ipod wheel like ?13:15
nicksydneywpwrak: or maybe use accelerometer as left, right, top and bottom movement :)13:16
wpwraknicksydney: dunno if they feel right. what i like about the mechanical wheel is that you get tactile feedback.13:16
wpwrak(accel) urgh :)13:16
nicksydneywpwrak: or perhaps slide and use the sides to tap as 'enter'/'confirm' key13:17
nicksydneywpwrak: so use case....user use slider to select and tap the side to enter /confirm13:17
nicksydneywpwrak: sorry just throwing crazy ideas here to see if any sticks :)13:18
wpwraki find the slider idea interesting, though. it would give that area under the display something to do. and it would make the device smaller and cheaper. (i think that wheel is the priciest component of all)13:18
wpwrakyes, kinda like a one-dimensional touch pad13:19
nicksydneywpwrak: i was holding a RSA token the other day and was thinking what IF anelok also have a solar panel to make the battery last long ? it recharge the battery by itself ?13:20
wpwraknot sure if a solar panel would have that sort of power output. it would have to work indoors, too. so you don't get that much light.13:22
wpwrakalso, i try to stay away from rechargeable batteries because of their built-in obsolescence13:23
nicksydneywpwrak: does indor lighting helped or it is too low ?13:23
nicksydneyahhh ok 13:23
nicksydneyso for devices such as those RSA token what kind of battery do they use ? as the device itself is very small13:24
wpwrakdoes that RSA thing have a solar panel ?13:24
nicksydneyoh sorry....it was not RSA token it was some kind of token key i was holding13:25
nicksydneycan't remember now what was it...thought it was RSA13:26
wpwrakand it has a solar panel ? the ones i know are just "replace when the battery dies" (after years)13:28
nicksydneythe other thing i was thinking whether there will be any useful use cases to use your mobile with the device13:29
wpwrakthat's the link i hope BTLT can provide13:30
wpwrakBTLE even13:30
nicksydneyYES ! .. BLTE :)13:30
nicksydneyAndroid baby :013:30
nicksydney:_)13:30
nicksydneymaybe we can use the mobile device to 'activate' as master key ?13:31
nicksydneyif the mobile can connect to the device that is considered as 'login' to the device and can use the device13:31
nicksydneyand the app can 'extract' information from the device13:32
nicksydneyi can help you to write the app :)13:32
wpwrakwhich one would be the key for what ? anelok for the android phone/tablet/dromedary, or vice versa ?13:33
nicksydneyboth ways13:34
nicksydneybut initially i was thinking one way first...from the phone to unlock the device 13:34
wpwrakmmh, that would be the less secure device acting as key to the more secure one13:35
nicksydneyso you are thinking the other way around ?13:36
wpwrakit would make more sense. of course, ideally, you'd just move the sensitive stuff into anelok and have an encrypted path through your droid. that way, if your droid is compromised, it still can't do any damage. (well, beyond making calls to timbuktu, sending premium SMS, and that sort of fun)13:39
nicksydneymake sense....what about cases where user can potentially use the device by using BLTE to use any bluetooth enabled devices (either to turn on/off) ... say theoretically if a use has a bluetooth enabled speaker and they want to turn it on ..they can use it by connecting the device ot it13:44
nicksydneyi guess what i was thinking is the device can be used as a master 'key' to enable/disable certain hardware that the user has ?13:44
wpwraklike a BTLE remote control ? well, yes, you could do that. things to consider: 1) if you use it a LOT, you'll go through batteries quickly. i expect a CR2032 to last for about two months. if you use it to control your tv, air conditioning, etc., too, then you may only get a few weeks13:50
wpwrak2) the more stuff you load into the, the more likely it is that some will open a security hole13:51
wpwrakthat's also why your droid should be considered less secure: it just runs too much stuff13:52
nicksydneywpwrak: didn't think about the battery13:55
dos1200 :)14:05
wpwrakdos1: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg14:18
wpwrak(you moved to 200 so fast, i barely had enough time to cool down the glass :)14:19
dos1hehe yeah :)14:19
dos1cheers! :D14:19
eintopfcheers! :)15:24
rjeffriesfyi I am experimenting with IRCCloud 9beta) it is a persistent IRC connection in a browser. (I use Chrome) sorta kinda cool.15:57
viricrjeffries: another mitm service?16:08
rjeffriesviric yeah prolly run by a certain USA agency that specializes in gathering data. lol16:26
whitequarkirc is public anyway16:32
dos1http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&type=submission&id=316023717:05
wpwrakperfect :)17:08
rjeffriesSo if Neo900 does get 1,000 preorders (seems plausible) what will the unit price be?17:09
wpwrak(/.) it's not approved yet, though17:10
ysionneauto get to 1000 preorders i think it needs more advertisment17:10
ysionneaulooking at the pace of the preorders right now17:11
dos1wpwrak: yeah, upvote! :)17:11
ysionneauah, /. ing it is a good idea :)17:12
dos1rjeffries: it's hard to tell right now, but I guess it may be 100-200 EUR less17:12
wpwrakysionneau: that should grow the audience by some 5-6 orders of magnitude :)17:13
ysionneaulets hope each preorder will convert into order17:13
dos1we were already slashdoted at the beginning of fundraiser17:14
dos1greatest spike in traffic was from hacker news though17:14
dos1no lack with HN with recent submissions however, just few upvotes until it goes into oblivion17:15
dos1I guess there's some luck needed to post it at right moment, so right people will start upvoting and then it goes forward17:16
dos1green on slashdot - that means there is some interest :)17:18
rjeffriesNeo900 is a fascinating experiment testing appeal of FOSS/open [at a price premium] vs. features. May the Force be with them! 17:20
wpwrak(upvoting) well, that too. but what i meant was an approving comment. i.e., one explaining why it sucks, why those doing it are idiots and crooks, and why it will with absolute certainty fail. all that sprinkled with some more insults. only then it's official :)17:20
rjeffrieswpwrak are you suggesting a strategy where a clever troll of Slashdot might (significantly!) help Neo900. 17:22
rjeffriesWhat an evil perosn you are, wpwrak. I like it.17:22
rjeffriess/perosn/person/17:22
Action: wpwrak pets his white cat17:23
wpwrakthat sort: http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/villains/blofeld1.php317:24
whitequarkwohoo, 20217:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: congrats!17:54
ysionneauyep, congrats :)18:01
hellekinlekernel: http://hongwrong.com/hong-kong-bitcoin/ "mining facility" 18:08
whitequarkthat timeouts :(18:19
whitequarkoh, works18:21
dos1Russia is invading :)19:19
dos1almost 40% of pageviews on neo900.org from today is from them19:19
dos1http://habrahabr.ru/post/204422/19:19
DocScrutinizer05http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production19:47
wpwrakdos1: ah, plenty of /. love in the comments :)21:20
nicksydneywpwrak: for protoyping how many PCB do you have ?21:52
wpwrakyou mean aneloks ? just one for now21:53
wpwrakthe next one will have some changes. e.g., i need to swap some pins and such.21:54
nicksydneywpwrak: you make the PCB yourself ?21:55
wpwrakyup21:56
nicksydneywpwrak: did you use the method of printing it on a glossy plastic-y paper and iron it to the copper ?22:02
wpwrakyes, that's toner transfer22:07
wpwrakjust that i use a laminator instead of an iron. more consistent results :)22:07
nicksydneycan i use normal inkjet printer instead of laser printer ?22:09
wpwrakoh no :) it's the toner that makes the transfer. ink doesn't work that way22:18
dos1yay, /. submission seems to be gaining on popularity22:19
dos1should make it soon :)22:19
wpwrakwhen you iron the sheet, the toner melts and attaches to the copper. there, it acts as an etch resist22:19
nicksydneywpwrak: damn! don't have laser printer :(22:19
wpwrakdos1: oh, the one i saw was from nov 2. easy to confuse the two :)22:20
dos1hehe :D22:20
dos1http://slashdot.org/popular22:21
dos1already orange and high on popular list22:21
dos1colors mean popularity, above orange is only red22:21
nicksydneywpwrak: oh another thing was wondering shall we make a list of the bill of material ? or anelok has got one already ?22:24
wpwrakfunny. thought it was red light colors. green = pass, red = no go. counter-intuitive scheme :)22:24
dos1hehe :) it's color scale from black to red, starts at blue IIRC22:24
wpwraknicksydney: only the one kicad auto-generates22:25
dos1it's rather red -> hot and black -> dead I guess22:25
wpwrakwould be good to make one that can be auto-priced. i have some scripts that can extract data from digi-key (from the "b2" project, son of "boom", which is an automatic BOM generator. alas, WIP.)22:26
wpwrakalso need to make a component reference to data sheet mapping. that way, it'll be easier to guess the argument to "dsv"22:27
nicksydneywpwrak: for the component how much did you spend all together ?22:28
nicksydneywpwrak: to assemble 1 device 22:28
wpwraklemme cut & paste from my shopping list ...22:30
nicksydneydos1: maybe you can post here too .. ozbargain.com.au ... lots of technies there from down under :)22:34
wpwrakthese are the main new components i had to get: http://pastebin.com/pD8WddEx22:34
wpwraki have a lot of the smaller stuff already in my lab22:34
dos1nicksydney: hmm, is neo900 really a "bargain"? :)22:35
wpwraknote that i always get a few parts22:35
wpwrakdos1: excellent freedom per euro ratio :)22:35
nicksydneydos1: hahha....well for some ppl they are considering you can do whatever you like with it :) 22:37
nicksydneywpwrak: just realized there is zigbee22:37
wpwrakfor now :)22:38
wpwrakah, and to all this add the OLED: http://www.buy-display.com/default/oled-graphic-display.html22:41
wpwrakthen you have my pseudo-bom. not included: various smaller caps, resistors, led, etc.22:42
wpwrakhave to quit for while and try to bring one of my graphics cards after the brownout ...23:01
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