#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-11-28

ezdagoranyone know where I can buy a Nanonote?05:08
wpwrakyou could try pulster.eu05:17
ezdagorDo they accept USD?05:20
wpwrakthey work in EUR, either with wire transfer or paypal. so the currency conversion is sort of automatic05:21
ezdagorok. thanks.05:25
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you live in the americas, no?05:34
DocScrutinizer05could you explain to me what's the usual procedure to buy and register/make work a CDMA phone? Given I do *not* want to buy it from carrier05:35
DocScrutinizer05AIUI CMDA phones usually don't have SIM05:36
DocScrutinizer05What would an Asian user do when roaming to USA with his SIM-CDMA phone?05:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: hmm, no idea. cdma disappeared in argentina a long time ago. it's all GSM now.10:49
wpwrakand i think any hybrid would be messy :)10:49
wpwrakwhen in the US or canada, i of course also used GSM networks. should be similar with UMTS.10:51
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: thanks. Got the answers I needed. See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1389579#post138957913:50
DocScrutinizer05and particularly http://www.enkom.fi/assets/Uploads/PXS8-PVS8-Multi-Carrier-AN67-V01-29.08.20131.pdf13:51
wpwrakseems easy14:04
wpwrakand yes, LTE is probably useless for a global product14:05
wpwrakin a 2012 c't article i just read, they mention some 34 LTE bands world-wide, so ...14:06
wpwrakof course, UMTS isn't exactly "universal" either ...14:07
wpwrakbut at least you have GSM and EDGE. finally something you can trust ;-)14:07
ysionneaumaybe someday you will see massively multi band LTE chips14:21
ysionneaudunno how hard it would be14:22
ysionneauI know chips capable of receiving and decoding multi standard dvb, I guess dvb is not on the same band if you are in europe or usa or Japan etc14:22
wpwrakthe question is if the carriers would even want such chips to exist. and since almost everything is sold through carriers, ...14:30
DocScrutinizer05to me it seems carriers actively drive that diversification to protect their markets20:28
larscone receiver to rule them all20:28
DocScrutinizer05this started with 900/1800 vs 800/1900 for GSM, which had no *real* rationale20:28
DocScrutinizer05mainly NIH and "off my lawn. sucker!"20:29
DocScrutinizer05cdma allegedly is way more safe and technically superior. I have a hard time following that argument20:30
DocScrutinizer05anyway PXS8 is nice, and speaks UMTS and Verizon/Sprint CDMA200020:31
wpwrakisn't it that some of the GSM bands of EU were already assigned in the US ? and perhaps vice versa20:32
DocScrutinizer05seems Canadians (and US residents) are mad for such a device20:32
wpwrakdesperate captive customers. we love them (-:C20:33
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: the official explanation been sth along the line "900 is allocated to military already" - but that's been utter BS20:33
wpwrakah yes, what's what i had heard as well20:33
DocScrutinizer05evidence: now they use 900 for UMTS20:33
wpwrakwell, i'm sure they're not unhappy about the fragmentation.20:34
wpwrakcould be that they were already retiring military use of 900. after all, quite a few years passed between GSM and UMTS.20:34
DocScrutinizer05market protection not by taxes but by technical means20:34
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: military RF stuff has *always* means to use a wide range of frequencies, since they don't want to make it too simple for any enemy to build jammers20:36
wpwraksure. but i guess they sill want "their" bands.20:39
DocScrutinizer05sure, they always want as much as they can get or defend20:40
DocScrutinizer05after all they are THE MILITARY20:41
DocScrutinizer05not even police or governments have any word in what they're doing20:42
wpwrakin the good old times, warlords were the rulers, so the military got to do as it pleased.20:43
DocScrutinizer05john F. Kenedy had a pretty hard time to keep his military from using the nukes, back in cuba crisis20:43
wpwraklater on, civil governments were regularly toppled by military rulers, so the military still got to do as it pleased.20:43
wpwraknowadays, civil rulers are in charge permanently, and the milirary gets to do as it pleases.20:44
wpwrakthe more things change, the more they stay the same :)20:44
DocScrutinizer05and civilians using RF technology, for *communication* DANG if they could they would stop it all together20:44
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless military may use whatever band they seem fit. So they generally wouldn't care too much about 900MHz if it wasn't some senator or some industry via a senator would suggest they should keep it, for sake of national markets20:46
wpwraksurreptitious use of the military for economic warfare on the home soil :)20:48
DocScrutinizer05after all if it really was important for them, they had kept it and UMTS wouldn't use it today. OR they don't need it and need to phase out some old technology that uses 900, so the sooner the better, for military POV20:48
DocScrutinizer05the sooner they get new weapons20:49
wpwrakwell, the military tends to be slow. having a few fancy new drones doesn't mean that they don't still have bunkers full of WW2 ordnance20:51
DocScrutinizer05ooh, and killer argument: all military technology designed to work abroad, and they wouldn't want to see their cruise missiles or whatever fail in europe where 900MHz is used a lot, so they *mist* have means to cope with it20:51
DocScrutinizer05the non-mobile infra can't be much20:53
wpwrakwell, their 900 MHz use may be for things that don't travel often20:53
wpwrakalso, it would be easy enough to bomb all the 900 MHz transmitters in a target area20:53
DocScrutinizer05dang, that would look like WW-II20:54
DocScrutinizer05I guess we have ~5 stations per square km here, in urban areas20:54
DocScrutinizer05and when they ever need to use that 900MHz technology on their own territories, they don't even need to bomb the stations away, they could switch them off by the push of a single button20:57
DocScrutinizer05nah, a red herring20:57
DocScrutinizer05always been, everybody plainly could see 20:57
DocScrutinizer05and the nice thing about "Military use!" excuse: nobody may ask for details20:58
wpwrakaround here, were's the impolite kind of bunch: we don't greet, we just say what's on our mind :)22:55
qwebirc16429was wondering whether the project in qi-hardware is still running as most of the info on the wiki are dated in 201122:55
qwebirc16429wpwrak: thanks for the warning :)22:55
wpwrakwell, which of the many little projects ? qi-hw is basically a collection of things22:56
wpwrakand yes, some things have fallen into disrepair22:56
qwebirc16429wpwrak: the ben nanonote22:56
wpwrakah, that one is difficult. it still exists, some people are even getting new ones, but i don't see much development activity around it. and so far nobody is working on a successor.22:58
qwebirc16429wpwrak: i see...i'm interested to learn about hardware and was wondering which project are still active and kicking 22:59
qwebirc16429wpwrak: thought of joining in a running project to learn about it and contribute time for it22:59
wpwraklet's see ... nanonote is all software these days, a lot of it in the kernel.23:02
wpwrakthen there's anelok, which is small (1 person) but with potential to grow, there's mixxeo (1 person and a few helpful elves), there may be an fpgatools revival but i don't know if that one will involve actually making hardware23:03
wpwrakone projects that's being talked about here but that's independent from the qi-hw crowd is neo900.23:05
qwebirc16429can't seem to find info on anelok on the wiki page23:05
qwebirc16429neither is neo90023:05
qwebirc16429cool ... any page that i have a read about neo900 ?23:05
wpwrakanelok is here: https://gitorious.org/anelok/pages/Home23:06
qwebirc16429*can have a read23:06
wpwraka picture may say more than 1000 words: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybox-atusb.jpg23:06
wpwrakneo900 has a more polished presentation: http://neo900.org/23:07
qwebirc16429man i feel like a kid in a candy store now :)23:07
wpwrakhehe :)23:07
qwebirc16429neo900 is soooo YUMMY !!!!23:07
qwebirc16429i start small first with anelok23:07
qwebirc16429seems like that project belongs to you :)23:07
wpwrakyup, that's my baby :)23:08
qwebirc71006sorry got cut off23:08
wpwrakyup, that's my baby :)23:08
wpwrakas you can see, still in its earliest infancy :)23:08
qwebirc71006wpwrak: the schematics for anelok is available right ?23:08
wpwraksure: to look at them: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.pdf23:09
wpwrakto edit them: https://gitorious.org/anelok/anelok/source/hw23:10
qwebirc71006wpwrak: cool...what design tool you normally use ?23:10
wpwraki use kicad23:11
nicksydneycool...will start looking at it23:11
wpwrak(so it's all open source)23:11
nicksydneywill have a read and start downloading it .. will ping you if i have question23:11
wpwrakkewl :)23:12
wpwrakah, and you need to get a few more repos if you want to edit things23:12
nicksydneysure...tell me23:12
wpwrakfrom qi-hw, you need: eda-tools and kicad-libs23:12
wpwrakif you want to build the firmware, you also need ben-wpan23:13
nicksydneyqi-hw repo is in ?23:13
wpwrakif you want to use any of the CAD things, you need fped and cae-tools23:13
wpwrakone of these days i should write a proper build guide with all the dependencies ...23:14
nicksydneyi can write it while doing it at the same time23:14
wpwrak... of course, since i'm the only one working on it at the moment, motivation is low :)23:15
wpwrakah yes, that would be great23:15
wpwrakwhen starting from a working setup, you almost always miss some things23:16
nicksydneyi'm confused these tools eda-tools, kicad-libs, ben-wpan, fped and cae-tools where is the repo...you point to projects.qi... website but there are many of those projects23:16
wpwrakand so on23:16
nicksydneyok let me write it down as i do it23:18
wpwrakeda-tools are a few helper programs. the most important one is "dsv", which takes care of managing the data sheets23:18
wpwrak(after you check out the anelok repo, you run "make dsv", which downloads all the data sheets the project uses. then you a) have a local cache of them, and b) can display them with short names, e.g., "dsv kl25" for the data sheet of the MCU)23:19
wpwrakthings are listed in the file BOOKSHELF23:19
nicksydneyok cool23:20
wpwrakkicad-libs has schematics symbols and footprints. and somewhat old catalog can be found here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-components.pdf http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf23:20
wpwrak(bah, should generate a new one ... that stuff is already a year old)23:21
wpwrakfped is the footprint editor. i also abuse it as parametric cad.23:21
nicksydneyneed to learn all the different jargon you are talking there :)23:22
wpwrakcae-tools is a bunch of programs to generate toolpaths for CNC machines and such. for making PCBs, milling cases, etc.23:22
wpwrakyeah, it's pretty "deep"23:22
nicksydneyif you want to go full force might as well jump and make yourself very wet :)23:22
wpwrakthat's the spirit ! :)23:24
nicksydneyok let me get back to work (it's morning here in the other side of the world) :) 23:24
nicksydneywill ping you when i'm stuck with something23:24
nicksydneywill do all these during lunch time23:24
nicksydneywhich is another 3 hours to go :)23:24
wpwrakalright. good luck ! :)23:25
wpwrak3 h ... seems late for sydney ?23:26
nicksydneyi'm working at home full time so i take lunch late23:27
wpwrakah. working at home = lunch hours are around the clock :)23:28
nicksydneyyup....and no time limit :)23:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (bunkers full of WW2 ordnance) btw, i meant this kind of story (the uss forrestal incident): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh79MoHQk0o23:56
DocScrutinizer05UGH 90s and I'm feeling nausea from watching23:58
wpwrak90s ? that was in 196723:59
DocScrutinizer05docutainment for kids with nintendo defects and ADHS23:59
DocScrutinizer0590 seconds23:59
wpwrakah yes, they have a peculiar style. don't like it either. but the story is rather interesting.23:59
DocScrutinizer05blair witch style of camrea23:59
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