#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2013-11-24

wpwrakit's like the arduino. those things take a while to burn themselves out.00:52
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/molex-5000246471.html ?00:54
wpwrakor eat the 6 weeks lead time and get it from one of the usual suspects00:55
whitequarkdigikey says it's obsolete...00:56
wpwrakpretty much everybody says it's obsolete. but they need it anyway.01:00
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: alibaba is sophisticated spam, they say they can offer .* MOQ 100 and when you ask for 500 they say "sorry, not on stock, will be extremely expensive and MOQ:5000"01:04
DocScrutinizer05or they simply say "not available" and start spamming you trying to sell random other crap to you01:04
DocScrutinizer05admittedly this is empirical on a very small sample size of 3 events which were 100% like this01:05
DocScrutinizer05one event: ! ordered three PCB on ownta. 5 weeks later the money returned to my paypal account without further notice. PCB not offered anymore01:06
DocScrutinizer05s/!/1/01:07
DocScrutinizer05s/!/I/01:07
DocScrutinizer05s/1/I/01:07
wpwrakdunno. i found eastrising aka buy-displays via them. very happy so far.01:07
wpwrak(pcb return) well, that can happen. at least they didn't defraud you.01:08
DocScrutinizer05next event: Nikolaus asked for 5000246471, answer like above "very expensive, obsolete, not available, do you REALLY want this?"01:08
DocScrutinizer05this been Von: "Viki Miao" <sales02@xindasz.cn>01:10
DocScrutinizer05This is Viki Miao, we are manufacturing company for connectors and cables, and we also do some famous brand connector in stock, including the Molex connector you interested in.01:10
DocScrutinizer05About your connector request, its a OBSOLETE one, no much in the market any more, we can try to source it, but before we spend a lots of time to source this connector, we want to give you an idea about the cost, You can check if its within your budget or not, if yes, we will spend efforts on this part, and try our best to get it, if its not within budget, you can let me know your ideas, I will check it for you.01:10
DocScrutinizer05no idea given01:10
DocScrutinizer053rd event: me asking for a 1GB PoP RAM chip that the company advertised. Answer: "sorry we can't deliver this chip. Do you want OMAP3430 instead?"01:13
DocScrutinizer05they pestered me like 5 times, during 5 weeks, blackmailing me to tell them how many omap3 I want to buy from them01:14
DocScrutinizer05honestly, alibaba, dunno...01:14
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's exactly what you need to go through, mail every single of those obscure shops and fight 99.99% spam and hope for the 1 answer in 10000 that actually offers to deliver right away01:16
DocScrutinizer05we westerners probably have pretty poor means to evaluate if a company is a hoax/rippoff or something serious01:17
DocScrutinizer0599% of the spare housings come with fake antennae that are only plastic parts without any conductive conponent in them01:19
DocScrutinizer0599.9 don't have the needed magnets in place01:20
whitequark(fake antennae) they really like this trick.01:21
DocScrutinizer05indeed01:21
whitequarkalso I don't think even a single chinese product I bought had RF shields01:22
whitequarkall had exposed metal on pcb though01:22
DocScrutinizer05to put it plain, it seems to me that all but maybe 2 or 3 companies over there are simply copying all the catalogs from all the other companies around and offer to REsell parts to you01:23
whitequarkooooh I have a nice story for you01:23
whitequarkthe russian component retailer (chipdip.ru), think digikey, had copied (against license agreement) the entire catalogue of digikey, added 30% markup and listed on their website01:24
DocScrutinizer05that's what they do in HK as well, and China01:24
whitequarker, s,digikey,farnell,01:24
DocScrutinizer05just they don't copy Farnel or digikey, but everybody copies their competitors01:25
DocScrutinizer05so you have a) pretty obsolete offers that go pooof as soon as you want to actually order01:26
wpwrak(Viki the cat) well, what was the estimate ?01:26
DocScrutinizer05and b) nobody has a real clue which offers are serious and which are just noise created by 5000 copy actions01:27
DocScrutinizer05none01:27
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: none01:27
DocScrutinizer05I quoted the complete mail text01:27
DocScrutinizer05(minus headers and signature)01:27
DocScrutinizer05no idea given01:28
whitequarkviki the cat?01:28
whitequarkah, miao01:28
DocScrutinizer05Viki Miao01:28
whitequarkha01:28
wpwrakwell, she wrote a lot. and it's correct english. so ask "yes, please let me know. please keep in mind that we only need 500 parts for now." (keep her hungry)01:30
DocScrutinizer05when they offer MOQ1000, 3$/unit, then go FU01:30
whitequarkher?01:30
wpwrak"them" :)01:30
DocScrutinizer05viki aka wicki01:30
wpwrakwell, 1000 isn't much greater than 50001:30
wpwrakand it will be expensive, whatever you do01:31
DocScrutinizer05yeah but 3000 / 200 is simply too much per device01:31
DocScrutinizer05and I dozbt they will ever deliver, and first we need a sample to verify the component01:32
wpwrakplan B is to unsolder from refurbished devices, right ? :)01:32
DocScrutinizer05yeah, probably01:32
DocScrutinizer05but machine-assemble unsoldered components is almost as expensive per board01:33
wpwrakthink about plan C: identify a display that will fit and that has reasonable connectors. even if it really sucks in a number of way, you'll feel better if you have something good to fall back to.01:33
DocScrutinizer05forget it01:33
whitequark3d-print all the connectors!01:34
DocScrutinizer05that's not display, that#s flex PCB with ALS, camera, LED, proxi, 01:34
wpwrakno, do it :) you'll find something. it'll be the basis for you independence.01:34
wpwrakah, i see01:34
wpwrakwhat's ALS ?01:34
DocScrutinizer05ambient kight01:34
DocScrutinizer05light01:34
DocScrutinizer05dang01:34
wpwrakokay, easy to kill :)01:34
wpwrakcamera is also something replaceable01:34
wpwrakLED, trivial01:35
DocScrutinizer05assembling flex PCB - NOT01:35
wpwrakproxi ? what needs that ?01:35
wpwrakreally ?01:35
DocScrutinizer05N900 needs that01:35
wpwrakfor what ?01:35
DocScrutinizer05we calculated max 10EUR for the complete flex PCB01:35
DocScrutinizer05for blanking the screen and deactivating the toichpanel when placing phone to your ear01:36
DocScrutinizer05and for ~1 dozen apps that make other nifty use of it01:36
wpwrakhmm, fair enough. perhaps you could do the same with heuristics, though: if call in progress, have a really short time out before turning off screen.01:37
wpwrakand screws the 12 doz apps. they're not worth all that money.01:38
wpwrakonce more, you can always try to do better. but you need a baseline.01:38
DocScrutinizer05your heuristics will fail01:39
DocScrutinizer05been there seen that. When the sensor reacts too slow you finish the call with your ear01:39
wpwrakcomputer heuristics will fail. humans will adapt :)01:39
DocScrutinizer05meh01:39
whitequarkhell, I've seen android phones with proper proximity sensors not reacting fast enough01:39
DocScrutinizer05thanks for the suggestion, but we offered feature completeness01:40
whitequarktoo big window01:40
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw how does it work?01:40
DocScrutinizer05proxi?01:40
whitequarkyea01:40
wpwrakwell, try a bit more. maybe you'll succeed and get that part. if not, write that apology to your fan base. they won't mind.01:40
DocScrutinizer05http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/513/01:41
whitequarkhahaha "expected result"01:41
wpwraknote: it's you talking to yourself. nobody else even noticed that there might be a problem :)01:42
wpwrakfact: enthusiastic users/customers are willing to forgive almost anything, as long as you maintain at least a shred of honesty.01:42
whitequark /set-channel-name #wpwrak-trolling01:43
wpwrakyes !! ((-:C01:43
whitequarkor #joerg-ra(nt|g)ing01:43
whitequarknot that I mind either01:44
wpwrakcase #1: OQO. horrible issues with battery and power supply (both basically self-destructed, sometimes on first use). reaction: people praised (!) the efficient customer service that sent them another part with just the same flaws.01:44
DocScrutinizer05or I just convince Nikolaus that we both earned a long holiday on the bahamas which we should get for ~20k EUR per person01:45
wpwrakcase #2: openmoko GTA01: advertized quand-band, hardware only had triple. users guessed for months why it didn't work. OM was afraid to admit it. when the truth got out (you can blame me :), people living in areas where that means their phone was unusable looked for buyers on ebay. i don't think a single one asked for a refund.01:46
wpwrakso i need to continue ? :)01:46
wpwraks/so/do/01:46
DocScrutinizer05just publish the schematics, declare that "ready for production" and explain that we had to use up the over-accomplishment on donations for psychiatrists and now we're busted and can't continue the project01:47
DocScrutinizer05ETX01:47
wpwrakwell, hold yourself to high standards. don't hold yourself to impossible standards.01:48
wpwrakthat's already the best deal in town, so don't worry01:48
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you missed one relevant point. I'm doing that to produce a device I would like to use for the next at least 5 years01:48
wpwrakyes. will you find it totally unusable if it doesn't have a proximity sensor ?01:49
DocScrutinizer05so in the end I don't give a fsck about "deal in town", I want that device exactly like I specified it01:49
DocScrutinizer05it's only an annoying side effect that I have to build at least another 20001:49
DocScrutinizer05;-)01:49
wpwraki.e., if you know you have to avoid touching you cheek for the first N (configurable) seconds of a call, will you never be able to learn that ?01:49
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: to be honest, yes, I'd find it pretty unusable without proxi detector01:50
wpwrakdon't underestimate the human brain. it's really good at dealing with things that don't work as expected01:50
DocScrutinizer05but hey, that's not our problem01:50
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: your suggestion is based on zilch usecase study. It won't work the way you hope for01:51
DocScrutinizer05I had to "pick up" and shout "please wait, my phone needs to lock the screen"01:52
DocScrutinizer05and how do you suggest I end the call? ;-P01:52
wpwrakyou hit a button01:53
whitequarkthere's no button01:53
DocScrutinizer05but honestly, that's wasted time to discuss the proxi sensor, we have that completely covered since we need to reuse the complete display half anyway01:53
wpwrakalso, do you actually NEED to turn off the screen ? does it matter, in overall power consumption ? and even if it does, could you just dim it ?01:54
whitequark*intensely glares at phone while it melts and bends*01:54
whitequarkwpwrak: it's about discarding input01:54
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: or could you come up with another few questions that are actually totally irrelevant01:54
wpwrakwhitequark: what i'm trying to get at is telling the user what to do. e.g., press a button, touch an area of the screen that isn't likely to be touched by accident, do a fancy swipe, whatever01:55
DocScrutinizer05I'm wasting time on this discussion when I'm supposed to get work done01:55
DocScrutinizer05the display half is a blackbox with a nasty connector. Period01:56
wpwrakwell, then solve the problem :) if you can't, then come back. else, enjoy the girls in the caribbean :)01:56
wpwrakbefore you said the display wasn't part of the problem01:57
wpwraknow it is ?01:57
DocScrutinizer05the LCD display << the display half01:57
wpwrakso it's on that connector, too ?01:58
DocScrutinizer05the display half is the half of the N900 where the display is mounted inside01:58
wpwrakah, i see what you mean01:58
wpwrakyes, that's always the evil side01:58
DocScrutinizer05among other stuff like earpiece, ALS, camera, LED, proxi01:58
DocScrutinizer05touchpanel01:59
DocScrutinizer05(i think now I got them all)01:59
DocScrutinizer05function wise, of course there's also ESD and whatnot02:00
DocScrutinizer05watch out movie!02:00
wpwraksure. define your baseline. find alternatives, even if they're poor. without that, you have no floor to stand on. if you define your alternatives, no matter how suckish they may be, you know you can deliver something.02:01
wpwrakall the rest of your work can then go into that "something" being something you can be proud of02:01
DocScrutinizer05https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJHMXQ3nSt0&noredirect=102:01
wpwrakso you're working on excellence, no working on avoiding defeat. you'll save a lot on antidepressants that way :)02:01
DocScrutinizer050:27 is display half02:02
DocScrutinizer05with the male part of that nasty connector couple at end of the black flex ribboon02:02
DocScrutinizer05in the middle of green mainboard in lower half, at upper end you see the other part of that connector nightmare02:03
wpwrakyes, but it seems that this connector doesn't have very exciting stuff on it after all. so if you can't source it (of course you should keep trying), you should look into replacing it02:04
wpwraknote that "replacing" could also mean making a little PCB into which you solder the mating connector02:04
wpwrakor replace the whole assembly. leave out the bits made of unobtainium02:05
DocScrutinizer05I think I still failed to explain it, or to get what you're suggesting. We want users to do that swap. We need to allow then to remove the display half just like in the movie, and plug it in to the new PCB02:06
DocScrutinizer05and the only "interesting stuff" on that connector is the complete display half, with LCD, ALS, ... you know the list02:07
wpwrakah, i thought you said before the LCD wasn't on it. just proximity, LED, and such. okay.02:08
DocScrutinizer05this connector connects the two hlafes02:08
wpwrakdo you have an estimate of how many users will want an "upgrade" and how many want a "new phone" ?02:09
DocScrutinizer05you're aware that the upper half can get slide up to expose a hardware kbd, are you?02:09
wpwraksure02:09
DocScrutinizer05seems like 80% want complete phone02:09
DocScrutinizer05but that doesn't matter since we can't build our own custom display half02:10
wpwrakbut i don't think it's all that hard to make an FPC. i know it's not trivial, but also far from impossible.02:10
DocScrutinizer05sure, we even could unsolder the connector and replace it by sth different02:11
DocScrutinizer05but our customers can't, and even while we _can_ it cost us an "arm and a leg"02:12
wpwrak(fpc) one useful trick: insert FPC connectors a few times. then examine the scratches the contacts left under a microscope. send pictures to the company that made the fpcs and let them be ashamed. they'll do better in the next round.02:12
DocScrutinizer05working hours alone are not bearable02:12
wpwrakskip this if you source your fpcs from germany. those obsessive engineers there will probably kill themselves over making sure your "1.1 mm" is really "1.10 +/- 0.005 mm" :)02:13
DocScrutinizer05nah, I think they're used to that02:13
DocScrutinizer05won't kill them02:14
wpwrak(complete phone) that allows you to do things like replacing nasty connectors with pcbs.02:14
DocScrutinizer05I won't do that02:14
DocScrutinizer05it's too much work and effort and risk02:14
wpwrakgermans tend to be obsessive. sometimes they forget, but once you remind them, they snap right back into it.02:14
DocScrutinizer05btw soldering FPC is a nightmare, unless you use vapor phase02:16
wpwrakyou can also see if you can find a company in switzerland that will make that for you. chances are there's none. and of there is, it'll be bloody expensive. but they'll deliver your "1.1 mm" at "1.100 mm +/- one planck length" and not even notice :)02:16
DocScrutinizer05reflow is prone to make a cookie out of your FPC02:16
DocScrutinizer05Wuerth is nice, they got the PCB gerbers at last Monday mornig, and today the PCB arrived02:17
wpwrakyeah, fpc is kinda sensitive. but then, if you don't have too many components, you can just hand-solder. also, you can consider reengineering: use fpc just to connect pcbs and move things that were on fpc to pcb.02:17
DocScrutinizer05and they do pretty good PCB02:18
DocScrutinizer05PCB with 0.1mm strength?02:18
DocScrutinizer05mhm02:18
wpwrakdoes it have to be that thin ?02:20
wpwrak0.4 mm are possible. (orderable by the container from digi-key) probably less if you make an effort.02:21
DocScrutinizer05http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/462025880/flex_cable_FOR_Nokia_N900.html02:22
DocScrutinizer05yes, it has to be that thin, we have a case it needs to fit into02:23
DocScrutinizer05and we have nasty custom rubber coat around camera & proxi, ALS 02:24
DocScrutinizer05we're not going to build the flex cables02:24
wpwrakwell, then be nice to the top 20 .cn vendors that connector02:24
DocScrutinizer05:nod:02:25
wpwrakyou may also try contacting molex directly. chances are they'll ignore you. but you never know.02:25
DocScrutinizer05:nod:02:25
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: (anelok case) consider strucured inside, might look nice with paint on it and cover some inevitable impurities/scratches of the acrylic inside02:45
DocScrutinizer05instead of masking the windoes, consider milling away the paint after painting finished02:46
DocScrutinizer05structuring the inside surface also avoids paint coming off02:54
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: how about simply using black sticky tape to create a "belt" around the whole case to cover the gap between upper and lower half? you can use full height, or just a small stripe of maybe 50% of the complete height, leaving enough of the pretty acrylic edges exposed03:17
DocScrutinizer05and you'd close the case with it03:17
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: http://www.cryogenius.com/hardware/rng/03:30
DocScrutinizer05http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-November/010396.html  Hah, that sounds like anelok design approaching my initial suggestions03:35
DocScrutinizer05ok, enough EE for today03:36
DocScrutinizer05o/03:36
wpwrak(machining the paint) hmmm, that probably wouldn't work. at least in anelok, i need to sand and then polish the machined side of the display window. if there was paint around it, it would get scratched.07:45
wpwrak(rng) hmm, not too bad. but ... 12 V ? that would be painful07:46
wpwrak(tape to close the case) that would look cheap. it's already a bit suckish if the paint is merely on the outside. need to try a higher quality paint, though - epoxy instead of acrylic. but for that, i'll need to upgrade my workshop.07:52
whitequarkhttp://www.redmondpie.com/ios-core-ported-to-nokia-n900-opens-door-to-ios-running-on-non-apple-hardware-photos/15:13
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: add iOS to the list of possible operating systems :pp15:13
DocScrutinizer05tzz15:14
DocScrutinizer05thanks anyway :-)15:14
whitequarkit's not really ios though, just darwin15:15
whitequarkwhich is, hilariously, foss15:15
DocScrutinizer05I know15:40
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty much like maemo: FOSS kernel and core services, with proprietary closed apps and higher layer services on top15:41
DocScrutinizer05"for differentiation and to maintain quality" or similar bullshit15:42
DocScrutinizer05which kills us especially for dialer15:42
DocScrutinizer05which seems pretty simple at first thought, but turns out to have a dungeon of dependencies due to niche case handling you forget about when thinking "dialer"15:44
DocScrutinizer05like 911 calls with device locked, 911 calls when device is overheated and usually wouldn't do any calls to protect hardware and battery, audio handling in a bazillion of different scenarios etc pp15:45
whitequarkin unrelated news, the changes in last ~3 minor android versions are complete and utter bullshit16:02
whitequarkgoogle continues gutting out aosp and adding useless crap16:02
whitequarkwhich means we went from one barely usable somewhat foss platform to zero. sad but predictable16:02
DocScrutinizer05of course16:03
whitequarkcyanogenmod will be usable for some years still, so there's that16:03
whitequarkhm, sailfish now has android compat16:05
pcercueisailfish isn't 100% FOSS either16:09
whitequarkyeah :/16:10
pcercueithough I'd be glad to test it on my phone16:10
pcercueiit seems more appealing than Ubuntu Touch... for one, it's a real Linux16:10
whitequarkthere's also firefox os16:11
whitequarkwritten entirely in javascript16:11
pcercueifirefox OS and Tizen are not really appealing to me16:12
pcercueimostly because they look crap, I think16:12
pcercueiit's like food, I taste first with my eyes :p16:13
whitequarkdoes it? http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/97650-thumb/firefox-os-mobile.jpg16:13
whitequarklooks like yet another android/iphone ui clone16:13
whitequarkif you look at their stencils, it's 80% a ripoff from android guidelines and patterns16:14
pcercueiwell, the girl is nice :p16:16
pcercueihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV1SY3tvYOs#t=35816:25
pcercueithis is what I'm talking about16:26
pcercueiit's laggy16:26
whitequarkso javascript doesn't work very quickly on cheap hardware. who'd have thouht16:30
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1388595#post138859518:06
wpwrakdo you have a sneak preview of the LTE critter ? if yes, you could post the intimidating page count :)18:08
DocScrutinizer05hmm?18:08
DocScrutinizer05http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced/broadband/pls8.html18:09
DocScrutinizer05what page count?18:09
DocScrutinizer05I don't get it18:09
wpwrak"those for the LTE modem are not available yet" ... "But the PHS8-E AT command set pdf has ~450 pages,"18:09
DocScrutinizer05PHS8 != PLS818:10
DocScrutinizer05the docs for PLS8 are not yet available18:10
DocScrutinizer05no, we don't have any sneak preview18:11
wpwrak"available" can mean that they haven't published it yet but you could still have a preliminary version. in this case you'd know the number of pages.18:11
wpwrakah, that wasn't clear18:11
wpwrakalso because you used "you may use it" and not "we may use it"18:12
wpwraksorry, just spent some time correcting some text. i'm still in editor mode ;-)18:12
DocScrutinizer05since "we" are not interested in the stuff that guy is aiming at18:12
wpwrakyou don't care about using the module ? :)18:13
DocScrutinizer05I suggested that *he* is using it to maybe get an idea how the LTE AT cmd set might look like18:13
DocScrutinizer05and I'm not interested in continuing trolling18:13
DocScrutinizer05I think that post is pretty clear unless you try to read between the lines18:14
wpwrakqwazix is right. you definitely should make a 2nd call for preorders at least a week before placing any orders18:14
DocScrutinizer05there's nothing to be read there18:15
DocScrutinizer05I answered that18:15
wpwraknote that things that have a long lead time may also allow you to increase the order size while waiting. so you may be able to accommodate latecomers.18:15
wpwrakwell, in any case you should plan to have a few spares since you can't predict your initial yield and want to err on the safe side18:16
DocScrutinizer05we'll exploit any such option when it's offered18:16
DocScrutinizer05we're planning for the usual amount of spares for warranty18:16
DocScrutinizer05thanks18:17
DocScrutinizer05more spares means more expensive product18:17
DocScrutinizer05and we have no money in the kitty to produce for the shelf18:18
wpwrakwell, you shold plan your finances such that you end up with a bit on the plus side. not having enough is infinitely nastier than being able to pay yourself a little bonus at the end.18:23
wpwrakand if you come out a few kEUR ahead, nobody will ask you to share the cell with madoff ;-)18:24
DocScrutinizer05we're planning to get some payment, but that's negligible compared to the production cost and component cost of let's say 100 additional devices built for the shelf18:38
DocScrutinizer05and we can't afford to e.g. buy 2k of a nasty connector at 3$ per unit (since it's not commonly available anymore particularly on lower MOQ) when we only need 300 and 1700 of them will rot on our shelf18:40
DocScrutinizer05we may do this once, or for a batch size of maybe 800 devices, but not multiple times or for a batch size of 200 devices18:41
DocScrutinizer05if we'd buy 2k of a 3$ component, to build 200 devices, then that adds 30$ to each device. Sure, simple math but I felt like stating it again18:43
wpwrakyeah, the more volume you can get the better. that's also why you need a 2nd preorder round. only then will you have the real numbers. what you have now is a weird mix between donations, some "serious" preorders, some partial preorders that will never become a full order, a lot of people who just wait and see for now, and then even more people who'll only pay attention to your project once you have a complete prototype.18:53
DocScrutinizer05we don't want to end with a zoom2-alike 1800EUR device, since that we will not be able to sell18:54
wpwrakso the 16x you have now can very well become >> 1000 if things work well. but yes, you need pessimistic pricing.18:54
wpwrakyou are in that price range, though :)18:54
wpwrakbut don't worry. for now, what you've promised is merely to do the R&D and make a few prototypes. so far none of these pesky sourcing problems seem to endanger that.18:59
wpwrak(i.e., you can just scavenge unobtainium parts from existing boards, as much as that may suck)19:00
DocScrutinizer05yes19:06
DocScrutinizer05unless they are so nastily glued to the PCB like the connector on the FPC flex, which broke completely whe I tried to unsolder it19:36
DocScrutinizer05when*19:36
DocScrutinizer05and I in the end heated the whole thing to I think 350° with hot air reflow station, for several minutes19:37
DocScrutinizer05solder should get liquid at ~230°C the latest, so it wasn't insufficient heat for sure19:38
wpwrakah yes, glue can be a major nightmare19:38
DocScrutinizer05I honestly ponder to ask *Nokia* about a few parts19:41
DocScrutinizer05but the pondering itself is already making me feel embarrassed enough so this won't happen too soon, no matter how desperate I may get19:43
wpwrakwhy not ? in fact, the sooner you ask, the better. remember the Great Storage Room Purge at OM ? that could also happen there19:46
wpwrakbut you'll want to be careful about approaching them. if you have some nokia contacts, maybe ask them first19:47
wpwrakfriendly nokia/ex-nokia contacts could also help you finding new sources of parts, be it places you don't know yet or introducing you to people at manufacturers who would normally not talk to you19:49
wpwrakoh, and did you already ping molex ?19:49
wpwrak(introductions) contacts are important. OM got a lot of things because someone at OM knew someone who'd make a little extra effort to help.19:51
DocScrutinizer05yeah, we got good contacts to Cinterion :-D19:57
DocScrutinizer05but not really to Nokia. Nokia hw manuf is typically lightyears separated from maemo branch19:58
DocScrutinizer05think of it like apple and foxcon. maemo branch ordered a device at hw branch19:59
DocScrutinizer05even in hw branch the EE don't usually know about sourcing19:59
DocScrutinizer05they might know the guys who do the sourcing20:00
DocScrutinizer05just like we at OM knew the guys sourcing components for us20:00
DocScrutinizer05did we?20:01
wpwraki know i did a fair bit of sourcing when the FIC sourcing guys let us down. burnt right through sean's credit card limit in one night :)20:04
wpwrakwhen OM separated from FIC, teenie did the sourcing. so yes, i knew whom to talk to :) (and most of the time i just bothered tony or tim. they knew how to take it from there.)20:07
wpwrak(sourcing) is still remember that afternoon when we were about two weeks from a very important SMT run for HXD8. Dash were very annoyed with the project's performance so far (so the FIC daughter company that ran the project so far was shut down and the good people of the team got transplanted into OM) so it was crucial to make that one work.20:14
wpwrakthat afternoon, i thought it a little strange that nobody had been talking about sourcing issues, as such things tend to come up around that time. so i went over to teenie and innocently asked for the BOM. she told me she'll give it to me in a moment. so i went back to my cubicle and watched the antheap explode.20:16
wpwrakafter a couple of hours i had the first fragment of the BOM. also with some parts marked as "we don't have them yet". it took until about midnight for the complete BOM to disappear. with the density of vacancies increasing.20:17
wpwrakwell, some calls were made to FIC sourcing and they got to work. a couple of days later they had some good news and some bad news. the bad news included parts they couldn't find at all or that would have enormous lead times.20:18
wpwraki may not have caught that if it hadn't been for a design change we had introduced shortly before. that was a little logic circuit i had previously designed for GTA02 and i had of course researched the components back then. now, mere weeks later, it would take 4 months to source maybe a hundred pieces ? that didn't sound right.20:20
wpwrakso i went to digi-key and checked what had happened. well, nothing - digi-key still had them by the thousands. so i suggested we order them from there. then teenie brought me more and more of those "impossible" components. most of them were easy to find. so a nice big order went out to digi-key. i think another to arrow as well.20:22
wpwrakthen another bit of bad news came in: they couldn't get the LCD (a clone of the PSP display). well, i found it at mouser. not cheap, though. that order cost OM some 15 kUSD. but in the end we succeeded and SMT went smoothly :)20:26
DocScrutinizer05LOL20:26
DocScrutinizer05yeah, those were the mad days at AOM20:27
DocScrutinizer05OM*20:27
DocScrutinizer05in some domains OM been incredbly naive and poor performance, often only mitigated by one guy (like you) making the difference20:28
wpwrak(there was a bit of a fallout from it since FIC sourcing bitterly complained to the powers that be, about us bypassing them. of course, the same powers have been getting almost daily calls from that really upset customer and were quite aware of what sort of disaster we had averted there. so the fallout was mild :)20:28
DocScrutinizer05haha20:29
DocScrutinizer05I still recall our GTA03 8*8 LED matrix, with 64 series R ;-P20:31
wpwrakonce we started bypassing FIC sourcing, also others got creative. e.g., Dkay went on some mysterious scavenging missions and found the heaven knows where some tattered reels with components20:31
DocScrutinizer05dkay been great20:32
wpwrakironically, FIC sourcing eventually also managed to find some of the things they had told us they couldn't get. i guess a little competition can be very useful :)20:32
DocScrutinizer05really gifted guy20:32
wpwrakyeah, wasted at OM20:33
DocScrutinizer05well, they all been soooo young20:34
wpwrakone problem at OM was that the good people could easily rise too high. e.g., dkay was more or less the rockstar of the EE department. he should have had someone more experienced on top to guide him.20:34
DocScrutinizer05I could've been their granpa20:35
wpwrakadam could have played that role but there was of course the tim vs. adam conflict20:35
DocScrutinizer05well, I was there20:35
DocScrutinizer05and I know why Sean and Wolfgang asked me to stay in TPE20:35
DocScrutinizer05but in the end we westerners can do zilch for the chinese secret circle20:36
DocScrutinizer05GOD office psychology20:37
DocScrutinizer05how I hate it20:37
wpwrak:)20:37
roh .oO(maybe we would have needed a counsellor on that spaceship)20:37
DocScrutinizer05haha20:37
wpwrakwould have been a handful of work :)20:38
DocScrutinizer05ohyeah20:41
DocScrutinizer05Tim been actually kind of a problem20:42
wpwrakoh, really ? :)20:47
pcercueioh noes, gpio-keys segfaults :(21:12
pcercueito report such a bug, should I mail the LKML or directly the maintainer first?21:24
--- Mon Nov 25 201300:00

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