#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-11-14

DocScrutinizer05may I guess? the driver is written so it works on different platforms and it finds out about fifo size of current platform by reading a register of musb-core IP block. Now when that register isn't existing on jz4740 then you probably need to get that info from elsewhere, worst case you need to hardcode it, according to what the datasheet/TRM says is the fifo size the musb-core is using per default01:47
DocScrutinizer05mere guessing, a shot into the dark01:47
wpwrakthat's what it sounds like. but a bit of A/B testing should reveal such things. maybe not immediately, but apelete has been at this for weeks, so i'd imagine that pretty much every line of code has been surrounded by debugging printks by now ...01:50
larscapelete: ram_bits is just something you need to specify in the config in your glue driver08:02
virickyak: bad aur src for filegive...08:50
apeletelarsc: does ram_bits should be specified in glue driver or platform data ?09:42
apeletewas thinking about reading the ram_bits register (raminfo actually) from within glue driver and store it in the musb driver structure09:43
larscis there a ram_bits register on the jz4740 core?09:51
apeletelarsc: yes, there is a ram_bits field in the raminfo register09:58
wpwrakwhitequark: bah, lame. direct thermal plasma printing would be so much more fun.09:59
larscapelete: ah ok good10:05
larscoh, there is even one that tells you about the number of eps10:07
apeleteyeah, that's epinfo I guess. need to find out how to use these to setup endpoints with ep_config_fom_table()10:09
apeletethe jz4740_udc driver hardcodes 4 endpoints, and that's what I specified in platform data but it does not help much at this point10:11
larscit looks a bit as if the config is static10:12
larscor the fifo config registers are just not documented10:13
larsc"/* NOTE:  for RTL versions >= 1.400 EPINFO and RAMINFO would be better than static musb->config->num_eps and DYN_FIFO_SIZE */"10:14
DocScrutinizer05hello hw hackers! :-) I have a design problem I'd ask you to suggest solutions for. I hope you might help me out11:19
DocScrutinizer05on Neo900 we can't find 1GByte PoP-168pin LPDDR(1) chip to place on top of the DM3730 CPU. Either you know of any chip that would offer 1GB and is supposed work with DM3730 or alternatives like using DDR2 outside the specs, or a piggyback mini-PCB to solder 2 PoP chips a 512MB on top of the CPU. Or I'd need a suggestion how to attach *fast* storage to the system, to serve as swap (hint: flash is usually NOT fast, particularly on 11:23
wpwrakusing PoP means you just made sourcing about ten times harder. i guess the first question would be if you could put the RAM somewhere on the side or below the CPU11:26
DocScrutinizer05annoying detail: Nokia N9 *has* a 1GB PoP, but that's unobtainium and not from this world11:27
wpwrakif you need to move something else away to make room, maybe that could go on some daughterboard11:27
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: alas that formfactor isn't available for OMAP3 SoCs11:28
wpwrak(unobtainium) yes, of course. we learned that sort of lessons at openmoko ;-) (not that we actually failed to get chips in the end. it was just a LOT harder than one may imagine)11:28
DocScrutinizer05the chip in N9 is not known by aunt google - of course also no chip manuf has any such critter (officially)11:29
wpwrak(form factor) i don't know what you mean. are you saying the OMAP3 has the RAM bus only on PoP ?11:30
DocScrutinizer05I searched for days for sparepart RAM for N9 but N9 repair service doesn't offer anything like that11:30
wpwrakmaybe find a list where disgruntled ex-nokia or soon-to-be-ex-nokia hw folks hang out. and ask there ?11:31
DocScrutinizer05AM/DM37x - PoP and Discrete :: DRAM - PoP only. SDRC signals occur only on top balls11:32
wpwrakso yours is a CBC, not CBB11:32
DocScrutinizer05already did11:32
wpwrakcould you source a CBB or CUS instead ?11:33
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: we got 37xx11:33
wpwrakok, CBO or CUS :)11:33
DocScrutinizer05ooh, CUS11:34
wpwrakyes, CUS. according to the table, CBP still would need PoP11:34
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I have to check if CUS is available, I simply didn't see (literally) this line11:34
DocScrutinizer05thanks a megaton11:35
wpwrakactually, i wonder if people would really buy PoP without memory. didn't the chinese number stations turn up anything ?11:35
DocScrutinizer05sometimes it just needs a second pair of eyes to look at some pretty clear info ;-D11:35
wpwrakhehe :)11:35
DocScrutinizer05PoP been an agony since 2 months now11:35
DocScrutinizer05literally nobody seems to have bothered to build 1GB 168p PoP11:36
wpwrakyeah, i've witnessed plenty of PoP hell at OM :)11:36
DocScrutinizer05except that mythical N9 chip11:36
wpwrakah, that's where the swap idea comes from11:36
wpwrakactually, if you have slow writes, that may still work: most applications are bursty, so you may be able to get away by simply keeping - on average - a large enough pool of spare pages11:38
wpwrakbut then, swapping to flash sounds evil11:38
DocScrutinizer05grrr, now again back to CUS formfactor specs, digging up all the annoyinaces this comes with. I guess Nikolaus will kill me for asking him to route RAM as well on that gordian knot of traces under the SoC11:39
DocScrutinizer05(swap) Maemo already has swappiness=10011:40
DocScrutinizer05this doesn't help in the end11:40
DocScrutinizer05(evil) yes, that too11:40
wpwrak(swap) ah, pity. get people to write better code ;-) i still remember the days when 16 kB meant that you'd never have to worry about running out of memory ever again.11:42
wpwrakso, instead of Flash, maybe add a ROM BASIC ;-)11:43
larscor SliverLight11:45
mthDocScrutinizer05: recent Linux kernels can swap to compressed memory (ZSWAP)14:04
DocScrutinizer05yes, I know14:05
DocScrutinizer05afaik it's already implemented in fremantle, at least with powerkernel14:05
mthit helped us on Dingoo A320 (32MB)14:06
mthbut probably not a substitute for having enough RAM chips14:06
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus said we basically can use CUS, but it has some interfaces missing compared to CBP14:07
DocScrutinizer05we have to check if we can get away with one UART, one McBSP and a few GPIOs missing14:08
DocScrutinizer05sounds nasty14:08
DocScrutinizer05the alternative (720MHz  OMAP3530CBB) sounds like a regression even worse than 1GHz DM3730 with only 512MB RAM14:10
wpwrakjust a few things missing doesn't sound too bad. making do with few resources than you need is part of the game ;-)14:11
DocScrutinizer05we'd lose all selling points of Neo900 basically14:11
DocScrutinizer05well, we planned for the UART3 (formerly "unused" on N900: console on testpoints) to become proper IrDA/CIR/console_over_SIR14:13
wpwrakand if you really just gpio-starved, you can always toss in a little helper mcu as io expander14:13
DocScrutinizer05GPIO are not my concern14:13
DocScrutinizer05McBSP and - to a lesser extent - UART are14:13
wpwrakeverything else can be reduced to gpio ;-)14:13
DocScrutinizer05haha :-D14:14
DocScrutinizer05DAMN friggin PoP!14:14
DocScrutinizer05I seriously ponder if a piggyback PCB would be feasible14:15
wpwrakregarding PoP, heed the wise advice of nancy reagan, "just say no" :)14:15
wpwrakif you want an unending yield nightmare, then you're on the right track :)14:15
wpwrakin the old days, it used to be the japanese who were the world leaders in batshit crazy but admittedly very creative abuses of technology. now it seems that china is catching up there, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3CWLCoQu7c14:23
DocScrutinizer05no, *I* am the king in this discipline ;-P14:26
wpwraknow we know what you need those extra interfaces for :)14:27
wpwrakhey, you just crossed 150. almost there !14:27
DocScrutinizer05well, I probably should've watched the video *before* answering ;-P14:28
DocScrutinizer05DUH 50014:29
DocScrutinizer05btw same old horseshit about patents on WCDMA calls, with royalties and whatnot. Luckily Nikolaus knows the Cinterion guys \o/14:34
DocScrutinizer05now this whole "M2M" adverising on http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced makes a lot more sense14:37
DocScrutinizer05GOD! Please kill all patent trolls with fire from heaven14:38
DocScrutinizer05or like we use to say here "soll sie alle der blitz beim scheissen erschlagen!" ;-)14:39
wpwraki'd opt for them getting arthritis and st vitus' dance at the same time14:43
DocScrutinizer05only if it's severe enough to stop them from pursuing their patent trolling14:48
DocScrutinizer05but then it's even better, yeah14:48
DocScrutinizer05and a long life to them then14:49
wpwrakthat's the spirit (-:C14:51
larsclive forever but continue ageing as normal14:51
wpwrakafter about 120 years, putrefaction inevitably sets in. so there'd be a zombie stage. after that, "life" would continue as a moving skeleton. with the right choice of clothing, nobody would have to notice14:57
DocScrutinizer05btw, about patents: http://www.google.com/patents/US6926418  bites our ass with getting a replacement for domesheet unobtainium14:58
DocScrutinizer05now going for soldering the domes to the PCB and placing a lightgiude plastic foil above it14:58
wpwrakare domes really soldered ? i thought they were generally glued14:59
DocScrutinizer05dunno, Nikolaus found some that aiui are soldered14:59
wpwraki'd double-check that ;) the ones i found look at first sight as if they were for soldering ... but they aren't15:00
DocScrutinizer05makes sense when the "solderposts" move while pressing the switch15:01
wpwrakdigi-key has some in a, as far as i remember, 5x7 mm grid. need fancy vias or solder mask, though. so not so easy for everything-DIY-ers like myself15:02
wpwrakah, nonsense. it's 10.5 x 9 mm15:04
wpwrakthis sort of critter: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/B3DA-0010-A/SW1019-ND/152299515:04
wpwrakor these, same concept, slightly different presentation: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/B3D-4112/SW978-ND/114769515:06
DocScrutinizer05lemme find the mail where Nikolaus told me about the Panasonic domes he found15:22
DocScrutinizer05can't spot it, but they are Panasonic and in a plastic frame where the dome can "move"15:48
DocScrutinizer05other problem: B2B connector similar to Hirose DF30FB-60DS-0.4V but with 64 pins. Anybody able to share any helpful info bit or pointer?15:50
DocScrutinizer05http://www.electronicproducts.com/Nokia_N900_Mobile_Phone-whatsinside_text-90.aspx  says:15:51
DocScrutinizer05Location      Function        Component Family        Component Type   Qty    Manufacturer    Part Number      Component Description  Markings        Form    IO / Pin  Count         IO  Pitch        Diameter  (mm)  Length  (mm)    Width  (mm)     Height  (mm)15:51
DocScrutinizer05Main PCB, Top         Mechanical / Electro-Mechanical         Electro-Mechanical      Connector       1                       Board to Board - Receptacle, Gold Plated Contacts                       64      0.40            15.70   5.00    0.80  15:51
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty unfortunate since the other end of this B2B is on a re-use component and this fixed15:53
wpwrakif all else fails, you could use two BM14C(0.8)-64DS-0.4V(51)-ND ;-)15:58
wpwraksome of these may fit: http://pewa.panasonic.com/assets/pcsd/catalog/p4-fpc-catalog.pdf16:19
kyakviric: huh?16:23
virickyak: the source points to uuid=v0.7, but you take it as 0.7.116:34
viricah maybe I posted it bad?16:35
viricouch, right, my fault16:35
viricnow you should update the sources url in aur16:36
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: thanks! but it has to match http://www.ebay.com/bhp/nokia-n900-flex16:40
wpwrakand how do you tell that it doesn't ? :)16:41
DocScrutinizer05I already tried to unsolder one of the 64p headers on the flex cable, but it's glued, so rework for 200 devices is most likely a PITA16:41
kyakviric: thanks, and i fixed the pkgbuild16:41
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I have ~5 B2B here to inspect them closely, and I think they look different than those panasonic16:42
viricthank you! I created all the misunderstanding :)16:42
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I dunno if the plug is a standard and only the build details differ to make them look like they are not matching16:42
kyakviric: i think you ping timeouted couple of days ago and missed my message (i don't display joins/parts/quits)16:43
DocScrutinizer05but since none of the manufs seems to specify any standard the connectors adhere to, I suspect it's "proprietary"16:43
viricI can't know16:43
kyakviric: and so i implemented temporary fix, which proved to be wrong :)16:43
viricwhat was wrong?16:44
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, i think you need get a few that look similar enough and then just try if anything fits16:44
DocScrutinizer05:nod: :-S16:44
wpwrakdo you know the original part number ?16:44
kyakviric: http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-11-13#5551985;16:44
DocScrutinizer05no - alas zilch known16:45
virickyak: yes, missed it16:45
DocScrutinizer05Nokia is notorious to not publish ANY real part numbers of *anything*16:45
viric:) well seen16:46
viricnoone noticed it. hehe16:46
kyakviric: if possible, you should get rid of the second version number in download url.. Also, you web server for some reason sends filegive-0.7.1.tar.gz?uuid=v0.7 file name, which is just not nice16:47
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: however I wonder where from all those "second source" flex builders got theirs from - ok it's the M-part and we need the F-part for mainboard, but...16:47
virickyak: although I got a column in a german magazine!16:47
kyakv0.7.1 now, i mean :)16:47
virickyak: in the paper version of http://www.heise.de/ct/16:47
DocScrutinizer05there must exist some secret knowledge inside China16:47
kyakviric: oh, it's interesting! what do you write about?16:48
virickyak: no. Someone wrote about filegive, simply. Not me :)16:48
kyakah, ok :)16:48
DocScrutinizer05viric: OOOOH!16:48
kyakviric: with recent news and such, filegive is an interesting thing..16:49
viricIt's the bee's knees!16:49
viricI plan to add ngrok support, which should help poor people behind cgNAT16:50
viric(more integrated that what you can do manually though)16:50
viricDocScrutinizer05: ? do you know that magazine? I don't.16:50
DocScrutinizer05sure! :-D16:50
DocScrutinizer05it's THE european computer mag16:50
kyakDas Kommandozeilen-Tool Filegive veröffentlicht Dateien im Internet oder nimmt sie entgegen. Es erspart Umwege über Dienste wie Dropbox.16:50
viricah :D16:51
DocScrutinizer05on same level like US Byte mag16:51
DocScrutinizer05Byte is a tad older16:51
viricI also don't know that16:51
kyakviric: have you already noticed increased downloads?16:52
virichm I didn't check16:52
kyakbe prepared :)16:53
viric214 downloads of the windows prebuilt16:54
DocScrutinizer05c't is sold in every gas station and every supermarket now16:54
viricvs zero of the previous month :)16:54
DocScrutinizer05I guess 10% of german population read it16:54
kyakcool, so it increased infinite times :)16:55
viricbut filegive uses nist curves. Not for the überparanoid16:56
wpwrakviric: better offer alternatives16:57
viricI should, rsa at least. next version.16:57
wpwrakand make sure it doesn't do things like switching to RC4, or silently dropping encryption altogether16:58
kyakfirst thing is to make sure your users downloaded what you actually uploaded (i mean the tarball)16:59
kyakmaybe for some users this binary will be substituted by another one16:59
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you should measure the real connector (especially the plug side) with a caliper. then you'd have at least correct reference dimensions.17:01
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I think at least the http://www.electronicproducts.com/Nokia_N900_Mobile_Phone-whatsinside_text-90.aspx guys did17:06
DocScrutinizer05I'll redo it nevertheless17:06
DocScrutinizer05Pin  Count 64; IO  Pitch 0.40;  Length  (mm)  15.70;  Width  (mm) 5.00;  Height  (mm) 0.8017:09
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/n900_01.jpeg lower middle;  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/n900_02.jpeg left upper 3rd17:11
wpwrakthat doesn't tell you the width of the actual plug17:11
wpwrakah, and it's the plug you need, not the receptacle17:15
DocScrutinizer05the plug is 14.50mm17:18
DocScrutinizer05on my caliper17:18
DocScrutinizer05total outer dimension17:18
DocScrutinizer05we need the receptacle as shown on the scans I linked 4 above17:20
DocScrutinizer05the plug I just netered is on the flax cable and is fixed and given17:20
wpwrakyou need the exact dimensions of the "oval" part that goes into the receptacle17:22
wpwraki.e., "penis diameter", not "width of the hips"17:22
wpwrak14.50 mm x ?17:24
DocScrutinizer05which makes for 1,2mm for the "hips" on both sides of the F-part17:25
DocScrutinizer05which looks about right17:25
wpwrakyou mean 2 * 0.6 mm "hips" (or walls) for the length17:26
wpwrakbut you still don't have the width. the length is more or less give by the pitch, for the width there seem to be a lot of choices17:27
DocScrutinizer05x 2.92mm (depending on how hard I squeeze the contact springs with caliper)17:27
DocScrutinizer05s/(depending on how hard I squeeze the contact springs with caliper)/(the springs are inside yet another "F" part of this "M" part)/17:29
DocScrutinizer05so actually you could call the mainboard larger one the M part and the flex side one the M part17:30
DocScrutinizer05so actually you could call the mainboard larger one the M part and the flex side one the F part17:30
wpwrakoh, i see. then you should measure the cable side17:31
DocScrutinizer05basically the mainboard one works like a cinch plug17:31
DocScrutinizer05and the flec side like a cinch receptacle17:32
DocScrutinizer05on http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/n900_01.jpeg the actual contacts are the tiny golden things next to the center17:33
wpwrakah yes, of course.17:35
DocScrutinizer05the distance of those golden contacts is ~1.60mm (hard to probe)17:35
DocScrutinizer05also there actually the springs would move in when I apply force17:37
DocScrutinizer05(and out when I probed the 1.60mm on flex)17:38
wpwrak1.6 mm sounds about right. measuring in your high-res image, i got 1.56 mm (with a bit of guesswork, so 1.6 mm is well within error tolerances)17:39
DocScrutinizer05yes, absolutely17:40
DocScrutinizer05my 1.60 thend to err to the larger numbers17:40
wpwrakhmm, nothing that looks similar on digi-key17:52
wpwrakyou may have to go through the catalogs of hirose, molex, jae, panasonic, etc.17:53
DocScrutinizer05if only there were proper catalogs17:55
DocScrutinizer05I guess somewhere on this planet there must be a special shop that's only selling connectors and knows every damn connector existing. Only I not yet found that shop :-/18:02
DocScrutinizer05component sourcing, a never ending nightmare18:02
wpwrakor maybe there are tens of thousands of shops, each having bags full of connectors, and when you go there and bring your device, they will try until they find one that fits :)18:05
DocScrutinizer05no such shop in my town. wouldn't know any in Germany at large either18:06
DocScrutinizer05I probably should check out aliexpress.com if they got some wishlist function18:07
DocScrutinizer05this silly connector kills our project :-/18:09
wpwrakmaybe make a drawing that clearly shows what it has to be like, then ask around18:19
wpwrakhmm, this one may fit: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/502430-6410/WM24084-ND/198757918:28
DocScrutinizer05http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/5024266410_sd.pdf  almost, just 2.6 instead of 5mm wide19:04
wpwrakwhy do you care about the width ? that's just the frame19:20
wpwraksince you have your own layout anyway, you adapt to whatever the connector needs19:21
viricwpwrak: it shouldn't go to rc419:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I don't care about the width really, but it has to match the other dimensions, and that's not given19:53
DocScrutinizer05http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WP3-P064VA1-R500/670-2642-2-ND/3725821  almost matches regarding the build, also just not wide enough19:56
DocScrutinizer05http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/5000275091_sd.pdf  has 3.04, which seems absolutely correct20:03
DocScrutinizer05design is also correct, on this side view20:03
DocScrutinizer0514.5 (A) length, correct20:04
DocScrutinizer05http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/5000241691_sd.pdf  length 15.7mm correct20:06
DocScrutinizer05I think this is BINGO :-)20:06
DocScrutinizer05only 6 hours of contiguous searching and already the right one ;-P20:22
DocScrutinizer05at least I really really hope so, and it seems to match exactly20:22
DocScrutinizer05every little detail20:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: many thanks for all the help and prodding20:23
DocScrutinizer05http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/5000276491/5000276491-ND/2818762   http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/5000246491/5000246491-ND/281874720:27
DocScrutinizer05and of course "qty available: 0" DMANSHITE!20:34
wpwrakoh yes, that one looks very good20:42
wpwrakMOQ probably 2k ;-)20:43
wpwrakthe drawing at arrow looks wrong, though: http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/42894824S8709584N3303?region=na&utm_source=octopart&utm_medium=buynow&utm_campaign=octopart20:44
wpwrakah, different part number20:44
wpwrakhere we go: http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/42894783S8709559N3303?region=na&utm_source=octopart&utm_medium=buynow&utm_campaign=octopart20:45
wpwrakmaybe here: http://www.vyrian.com/part.php?part=500024-169120:46
wpwrakyeah, there are several places that have it. you just need to ask, no published prices, etc.20:53
DocScrutinizer050.13..0.55$   good enough20:54
wpwrakah yes, MOQ 100. perfect.20:55
DocScrutinizer05though often those companies can't ship what they advertise20:55
wpwrakor give you the "made in china" 100% compatible replacement :)20:56
DocScrutinizer05sophisticated form of spamming20:56
DocScrutinizer05I had one "Christine" nagging me for weeks trying to sell me DM3730 since she(?) learned it's this SoC we need the RAM chip I asked a quote for 20:57
DocScrutinizer05of course they were not able to deliver the RAM chip I asked for, but they didn't stop pestering me with their friendly kind chinese mails20:58
DocScrutinizer05ignoring my answers that I'm not interested 20:59
DocScrutinizer05ohwell, time for breakfast21:07
apeletelarsc mth: finally detecting usb endpoints -> http://paste.debian.net/65921/21:28
apeletehardcoded a musb fifo table corresponding to the 4 endpoints avaible on the udc chip, it seems to be read correctly by musb core21:30
apeleteram_bits data is read quick and dirty for now, I needed to know if it would work at all21:31
apeletenow that it seems to work, will add a function to musb_regs.h to read from raminfo reg and update ram_bits field in the corresponding struct musb_hdrc_config properly21:34
larscapelete: yeay!22:43
wpwrakthis may be useful, some recommendations for planning crowdfunded hw projects: http://landing.indiegogo.com/hardwarehandbook/23:01
virickyak: do you mean I should... sign the binary? they can build their own too23:53
--- Fri Nov 15 201300:00

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