#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2013-11-11

wpwrakhmm yes, the products of boundless productivity meeting lack of direction are often troublesome00:00
kyakviric: all right then, ill change the md5sum in aur packacge04:54
virickyak: make it use 0.7.1!07:34
viricfaster, harder, scooter07:34
viricwhitequark: is there any place where all anti-poettering can meet?07:35
viricit looks to me that it's a spread thing07:35
wpwrakregarding implants, that's how you do it: https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach08:34
wpwraknote that it even includes illumination :)08:34
wpwrakbest sentence on the page: "The cockroach is anesthetized during the surgery"08:36
viricIsn't it fake? :)08:37
wpwrakdunno. looks technically correct.08:41
larscand it's not like it is new technology09:00
viricthe surgery http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery is very interesting09:02
viricit'd be nice to support 'flying mode'09:02
viricfrom the video I don't see it very succesful though :)09:03
wpwrakhmm. they're targting this at kids. so ... add a little "payload" (explosive), and you have both a schoolboy's wettest dream ever and a schoolgirl's worst nightmare at the same time.09:12
lekernel"Following a brief surgery you perform on the cockroach to attach the silver electrodes..."09:13
viricIt reminds me of the Starship Troopers classroom lesson09:13
wpwrakhmm. so that's what started the war ...09:14
viricAccording to the canadian ex-minister of defense, aliens are among us, at least four races. And two races help the White House.09:15
wpwrakhmm, must be five, with three on the white house09:22
wpwrakromulans, ferengi, and of course the borg09:22
viricyou may be more up to date than I :)09:23
kyakviric: ok, will do09:31
larscnot to forget the lizard people09:44
viriclarsc: are these ET too?09:45
larscI think09:47
larscI think he just wants to sell his book09:49
larscor maybe snowdens greatest leak is still to come09:51
viricha, everyone trusts snowden, and noone trusts the canadian minister of defence?09:58
viricAnonymous or Snowden will not say about ETs, because they ride on "what the people want to hear".09:59
larsc'snowden was an inside job!' ;)10:01
viricexactly :)10:01
viricbut anonymous or snowden would have the reputation very affected, if they talk about ETs.10:02
viricso they can only explain what the people want to hear.10:02
whitequarkwpwrak: re roboroach: no this is not fake, the experiment is incredibly well known12:14
DocScrutinizer05seen it in TV12:15
whitequarksurprisingly kickstarter didn't kill the project so I guess they will even deliver12:15
DocScrutinizer05on the bright side: no cockroaches here12:16
whitequarkcockroaches sort of disappeared from moscow several years ago (~a decade), no one knows precisely why12:17
whitequarkI haven't seen one in a veeeeery long time12:17
whitequarkguess the conditions here are worse than after a nuclear war?12:17
larscor they have all been turned into roboroaches fighting for the kgb12:20
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty sure WLAN or car catalyzers or PTFE bottles or tequila killed them12:20
DocScrutinizer05or what larsc says12:21
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: (wlan) lol, the top "popular" hypothesis is "GSM killed roaches"12:23
whitequarksecond one is "GMO"12:23
whitequarkofficial one is that moscow govt demolished a lot of old shitty buildings with wooden parts and simultaneously cracked down on sanitary norms for businesses12:24
DocScrutinizer05see, I'm good at "knowledge of the masses"12:24
DocScrutinizer05Genetically Manipulated Organisms?12:26
DocScrutinizer05quite possible12:26
DocScrutinizer05I'd pick this when I had to choose12:26
DocScrutinizer05cheers Monsanto12:26
whitequarkmodified, yes12:27
whitequarknot sure if sarcasm or wears a tinfoil hat :D12:27
DocScrutinizer05hey, BT-corn is the hugest experiment with humans ever made12:28
DocScrutinizer05cockroaches are only a colateral damage12:28
DocScrutinizer05you know that BT-corn produces its own insecticide12:29
DocScrutinizer05and while it allegedly is used only to feed cattle, it *of course* is *everywhere*, even on your pizza12:31
DocScrutinizer05so no tinfoil hat12:32
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: quick reply: if it doesn't kill cattle (or bioaccumulate in it), it's not going to kill me12:32
whitequarkslow reply: let me look through pubmed for studies of Bt endotoxin effect on humans. pretty sure the result is a definite "nothing ever happens unless you eat a bucket of it".12:33
larscand even if it kills you somebody else will survive, that's natural selection ;)12:33
DocScrutinizer05but all those hormone-homologues in plastics are also quite syspicious and ubiquitous, but I somehow doubt they can kill cockroaches12:33
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: what makes you think it doesn't kill cattle? cattle average live span: 4 years (guess)12:34
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23029407, for instance12:35
whitequark"No toxic effect was observed for the trypsin-activated Cry toxins in mammalian cells"12:35
Action: whitequark shrugs12:36
whitequarkyou want to believe, it's your right to disregard everything that doesn't fit into your preexisting opinion12:36
whitequarkcan't do anything with it.12:36
DocScrutinizer05you know that iriginally nutrasweet was not approved and considered harmful, until NestleĀ“ paid several mio to the right guys12:37
DocScrutinizer05originally* / initially12:37
DocScrutinizer05you also probably know that in the late 40s or the 50s they sold cigarettes with asbestos filter12:38
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ok. so what's your resolution? abandon using a likely safe, low-dosage insecticide treatment and instead wash the plants from planes with gigantic amounts of known much more toxic insecticides?12:39
whitequark(cigarettes) the asbestos part is funny, but let's look at the fact they still sell cigarettes first...12:39
DocScrutinizer05I sugest to do what all farmers do in Europe12:40
DocScrutinizer05NOT use GMO, and give monsanto the finger12:40
DocScrutinizer05monsanto should get killed with fire12:41
whitequarkbtw, you do understand gmo is not limited to naturally producing insecticides?12:42
whitequarkhm, funny. Bt toxin (or rather, the Bt microorganism itself) is used as an externally applied insecticide either, in spray-on form12:44
whitequarkis this what european farmers prefer to use?12:44
DocScrutinizer05I also understand that immunity of bacteria against anitbiotica is not only induced by exposing the particular bacterium to the antibioticum, these critters share knowhow by transfer of DNA segments from one to the other, even across kinds and families12:45
whitequark(not that I would object, turns out you can eat live cultures with no apparant effects)12:46
DocScrutinizer05what I want to say is: man has nfc what he's gambling with12:47
DocScrutinizer05and my approach is to steer clear of anything you can't revert12:47
whitequarkso you disapprove of artifical selection too?12:48
DocScrutinizer05BT-corn spreads and nobody can control where it shows up12:48
whitequarksince the result of that spreads as well and you can hardly control it12:49
whitequarkin fact (I don't know whether this is done or not) it's quite easy to control the spread of GMO if you want.12:49
DocScrutinizer05and yes, I think keeping certain species out of certain biotopes is mandatory12:49
DocScrutinizer05see rabbits in Australia, or (better example) the asian wood tick bug in Europe12:51
whitequarksure, I agree with that12:52
DocScrutinizer05noo dos112:52
DocScrutinizer05moo even :-)12:52
larscDocScrutinizer05: and most importantly keep the human out of most biotopes ;)12:55
DocScrutinizer05larsc: that too :-)12:57
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: however, regarding cockroach i'd not surprised to learn they can survive a nuvlear war but don't like Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP)12:58
DocScrutinizer05(which probably is an even huger mass experiment on humans than the BT-corn)12:59
DocScrutinizer05I simply don't like the approach of "we fed it to 500 mice and they all were still alive 1 day later, so let's add it to food for humans now since it helps optimize one aspect of industrial production"13:01
larscyou can always move to a cabin in the woods ;)13:03
whitequarkhow do you suggest transitioning to humans instead?13:04
DocScrutinizer05eah, sure13:04
DocScrutinizer05particularly the USA have a long record of allowing everybody to sell everything claiming whatever they like - like e.g. table water "activated" with radon that allegedly helps against aging and whatnot. Must be a direct result of their snake-oil salesmen in the early centuries of this country13:23
DocScrutinizer05of course unless it's somehow of interest for the FDA and might be considered a drug13:23
DocScrutinizer05then they as well may forbid whatever they like, and imprison you for some 10 or 20 years for even owning it13:24
DocScrutinizer05the FDA is blind and ignorant and has the brain of a germ13:38
DocScrutinizer05to me it feels like worldwide fight is banning one hazardous issue per year but same time we seen like 20 or 100 new ones each year13:51
DocScrutinizer05due to general mindset of "as long as it's not proven to be dangerous we will use it"13:52
DocScrutinizer05and "we are interested in any negative effects _only_ if they cost us money"13:54
wpwrak(where have the cockroaches gone ?) i think you're missing the obvious. after the fall of the iron curtain, the CIA simply recalled most of its agents.14:06
wpwrak(safety of GMO) i'd be surprised if these things caused acute intoxication. but we have enough more subtle things that are clearly on an increase, such as (dangerous) allergies, that fit the profile of something that would slip through those studies rather well.14:09
wpwrak(artificial selection) i think the problem there isn't that it's artificial but that its pace can easily exceed the change rate of natural selection. this in turn means that the (naturally evolved) mechanisms to adapt to such changes fall behind.14:11
whitequarkwpwrak: true, but that's not specific to GMO. we're eating much more stuff we didn't eat for long, most of it is not related to GMO or is plain out natural.14:16
whitequark(selection) any changes humanity can perform, either by selection or modification, are incredibly tiny compared to what happens naturally14:18
whitequarkby the way, the mechanisms ("you die if you're not good enough" ?) work quite well against changes people do. antibiotic-resistant bacteria, pesticide-resistant insects, etc, etc... happens quite fast.14:19
wpwrakyes, short-lived organisms definitely have an advantage there14:38
wpwrak(selection) i mean the rate at which humans can adapt to outside changes. not all of them require humans to keep up 1:1. we also have mechanisms that "learn" without resorting to evolution, which simpler organisms working against these mechanisms may lack. so the change is more complex for the simpler organism.14:41
whitequark(humans) yes, I'd be more worried about the damage we do to ourselves. nature as a whole definitely outlives us :)14:43
wpwrakwell yes, being your own kind's worst enemy comes with being the universal apex predator :)14:45
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: re FDA: sure, that's a problem, but it has nothing to do with technology itself (GMO, etc)16:05
whitequarkI'm not sure what are you going to achieve by banning one tech (GMO) when ten new (with zero oversight) will pop in its place.16:06
DocScrutinizer05I just don't want to get exposed to it16:06
whitequarkthen mandatory labelling will be enough. isn't it mandatory already?16:07
whitequarkhere in Russia, "no gmo" is something you see on a lot of products16:08
whitequark(... sort of like there used to be "no cholestrol" marking on vegetable oils :D)16:08
wpwrak"< 1 ppb Pu 238"16:14
wpwrak"does not contain unstable warp cores"16:17
wpwrak(xkcd) yeah :)16:17
DocScrutinizer05well, you're missing the point: nobody *can* announce "GMO free" anymore16:26
DocScrutinizer05not even any honey16:27
DocScrutinizer05virtually *every* US product contains GMO soy16:27
whitequark(tangentially: aren't you from/in Germany?)16:28
DocScrutinizer05it's like stating "free of radioactive additives" in Japan16:29
DocScrutinizer05yes, I'm from Germany and here we try hard to kick ass of monsanto, but they can't kept out of Europe leaglly16:29
DocScrutinizer05legally even16:29
DocScrutinizer05GMO soy shipping from US in volumes of megatons16:30
wpwraki suppose you get some from us down here as well16:30
DocScrutinizer05monsanto agressively marketing they crappy BT-corn and fighting for allowance to grow it in the wild16:30
whitequark(japan) that is a bad comparison, since from what I gather, anything out of fukushima is diluted to lower than background levels far before it can reach you16:31
whitequarkor maybe good :)16:31
DocScrutinizer05few farmers interested, but those few are enough already16:31
DocScrutinizer05haha @ background levels16:32
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's what they tell you in Russia16:32
DocScrutinizer05iirc they found real hotspots even in Tokyo16:32
wpwrakbut of course not ;-)16:33
viricI like when they say "the impossible happened, noone could forecast this", about fukushima16:34
viricwhich is something like "we got all wrong, when we built this, and we don't have any idea why yet"16:34
whitequarkthat being said the japanese govt seems to handle the whole situation awfully, regardless of its actual damage16:35
whitequarklying and hiding stuff16:35
DocScrutinizer05exactly like GMO handling in Europe16:35
DocScrutinizer0590% of residents don't want to see that crap here, yet they find new loopholes for monsanto to "enter the market" every other week16:36
DocScrutinizer0590% don't even want to drink milk that's from cattle feeded with BT-corn16:37
DocScrutinizer05but governments don't even demand to mark milk from such cattle so consumer had any choice16:38
whitequarkyou should've started with that :)16:38
DocScrutinizer05they simply forcefeed that shit to us since monsanto wants to make big business16:38
DocScrutinizer05"oh your bees in the hyve 5 miles away from that monsanto test area provide honey with GMO genes in it? Too bad but nothing we can do about it"16:40
DocScrutinizer05"or your field with corn has 10% of GMO in it? SUCKER! You didn't pay monsanto for using their seeds!"16:40
whitequarkside note: it's not easy to make a cell accept foreign dna even if you really want to, and know exactly what you put there16:41
DocScrutinizer05no matter *how* those 10% GMO got on the field of that bio-farmer16:41
whitequarkgmo genes in honey would be a truly tinfoil concern16:42
whitequark(pay monsanto) last time I checked that wasn't true16:42
DocScrutinizer05I don't give a shit about anybody's notion how much "tinfoil hat concern2 it is, I don't want to get forcefed with such shit16:42
DocScrutinizer05it's like you building a fab next to my door that exhausts lots of toxic stuff and you're arguing that my concerns are moot since I can't prove there is any damage done16:44
DocScrutinizer05I think when somebody blows up such fab then it's also up to the fab owner to prove that explosion been caused by some enemy and not by their own evil mindset exceeding critical mass and causing a chain reaction16:46
whitequarkwhen it's known it's toxic, you have just proven the damage. when it's not, yes, it's your responsibility16:46
whitequarkand I think that's exactly what will happen if the fab blows up16:47
DocScrutinizer05I'm NOT responsible to do scientific test on my neighbours toxic waste16:47
whitequarkso you're asking him to stop doing X simply because you don't like X16:48
whitequarkdemanding him16:48
whitequarktotally makes sense16:48
DocScrutinizer05and I don't think monsanto has a god-given entitlement to sell and grow GMO here in Germany, when 90% of residents simply say "no way"16:48
DocScrutinizer05however check the nutrasweet story how such things work in real life, with the corrupt governments we have16:50
DocScrutinizer05claiming "bad vibes" or whatever casued by BT-corn grown in my country would clearly specify as "tin foil hat" concerns. Analytic proof of BT-genes in honey is something that obviously should allow me to send a C&D to monsanto16:52
DocScrutinizer05but they baltantly lie denying any such things possible to ever happen when they apply for approval to grow their shit in the wild, and after they been proven wrong and BT-genes found everywhere, they say "oh well, but now it's too late to roll back any of that anyway, so we as well can continue on what we're doing"16:54
DocScrutinizer05same for the BT insecticide itself. They deny any negative effects until proven wrong16:55
DocScrutinizer05it's always the same16:55
DocScrutinizer05[2013-11-11 14:52:42] <DocScrutinizer05> due to general mindset of "as long as it's not proven to be dangerous we will use it"16:56
DocScrutinizer05[2013-11-11 14:54:14] <DocScrutinizer05> and "we are interested in any negative effects _only_ if they cost us money"16:56
DocScrutinizer05to be found everywhere, all the time16:57
DocScrutinizer05not only for GMO or food at large, but actually for every aspect of our life and planet16:58
whitequarkso in essence you're mad at capitalism?17:00
larscwell essential all domestic crops are gene manipulated, it was just a lot harder to make modifications back in the days where people relied on random mutations for this17:00
DocScrutinizer05more at egosim and materialism, and particularly at ignorance and idiocy and liars17:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: about 2/3 of the residents seem to be fine with the way things are. or didn't merkel land a great victory recently ?17:05
DocScrutinizer05(capitalism) I don't see any link and corellation. I think comunism as well has a record to abuse technology and not asking if it sipleases *anybody* anywhere. See e.g. Chernobyl17:05
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you missed how democracy works17:06
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: democracy is what you call a system where the people have no power whatsoever and the government can therefore let them do whatever they please17:07
whitequark(communism) iirc ussr lost about 2k radioisotopic thermoelectric generators in lighthouses along the shore17:07
whitequarkthat is two thousand. lost as in there is no written record of their location17:07
DocScrutinizer05you can choose if your drinking water from the tap shall have a) nitrides or rather b) dioxine or maybe c) gasoline17:07
DocScrutinizer05that's what we call "democratic elections"17:08
whitequark(rtgs) 1 thousand it turns out. still a lot17:08
DocScrutinizer05it's not correct to comclude to any general notion in population from any such election result17:09
wpwrakwhitequark: keeps you warm in the dark winter nights when the vodka has run out :)17:09
wpwraklarsc: harder = longer testing period, especially if you do things like crossing species boundaries17:11
larscif it compiles, ship it!17:13
wpwraklarsc: and let's not pretend al this is an exact science. e.g., they happily deployed GMOs long before discovering that "junk DNA" wasn't just junk, or before noticing the effect of DNA methylation.17:13
wpwrakyeah, pretty much :)17:13
whitequarknot sure how you can deploy GMO without understanding of noncoding DNA, it's critical for the whole contraption to work17:14
whitequarksince e.g. promotor is a noncoding fragment, or what you'd call 'junk'17:14
wpwrakwhitequark: hmm, do you know how they started making GMOs ? the earliest approaches consisted of setting up a field with the crop they wanted to modify, then placing a radiation source in the middle. leave it there for a while. then see what happens. if any of the plants looked better than before, that was the new product.17:15
wpwrakyou see, surgical precision all the way17:15
whitequarkwpwrak: oh.17:16
larscbut that's just the old method on fast forward17:16
whitequarkI wonder how much more than just polysomia (= bigger plants) you could get that way17:17
whitequarkdoesn't seem very effective17:18
larschttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_genetic_engineering starts at 12000 BC17:18
wpwrakin a way, yes. the question is whether you still get only one or at least a small number of mutations or whether you get a total mess what works more or less by accident and may do all sorts of weird things.17:18
wpwrakwhich brings me back to the point of no exceeding the speed at which higher organisms can adapt to evolution of their environment17:18
wpwrakwhitequark: well, if you can afford to lose 1000 reactors, just imagine how many fields you can irradiate. hey, do it in siberia, so the nasty byproducts will die next winter.17:20
larscor fukushima17:21
whitequarkwpwrak: it was lost during the fall of ussr, I think17:21
wpwraksomebody misfiled the paper work :)17:22
whitequarksomebody left paperwork in a damp basement and it just rot in a month17:22
whitequarklikely literally17:22
wpwraklarsc: a tragic day for japan, but a great day for science ...17:24
larschm, either somebody just pocket-dialed me or somebody wanted to send me a message but couldn't talk17:32
whitequarkwake up, larsc!17:33
larsclot's of beep beep beep on the other end17:33
DocScrutinizer05call back! ;-P18:30
DocScrutinizer05do a lot of beep beep beep answering18:30
DocScrutinizer05or... send a fax!18:31
Action: DocScrutinizer05 doubts the far end will get the prank18:31
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