#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2013-11-08

DocScrutinizer05how do you like new design (and new "stretch-goal") of http://neo900.org/#donate ? (we worked hard to not have any such ill concepts like that mnemonic in it)09:45
wpwrakhmm, i'd emphasize reaching the financing goal. making it clear that "we already got the meal covered. now we're going for dessert !" and maybe add a 500 mark, to make the next step less intimidating ?09:51
wpwraki.e., it's a bit unclear now what your requirements are. so you need the money AND 200 people (before you can do anything) ? at least it could be interpreted that way09:53
DocScrutinizer05we need the 200 users interested in buying a device, or we can't plan for mass production. We already can prepare the "data" to start mass production, but we can't do proper shopping for an anticipated sales volume of 132 devices09:55
wpwrakin any case, i still think it's a bit early to worry about numbers just yet. that is, unless you already plan to (or, worse, be forced to) bulk-order custom parts for the prototypes09:55
DocScrutinizer05please see hover text of "1000"09:55
wpwrakyes, but do you have to start shopping already ?09:55
wpwrakon which of the several 1000 on the page would there be hover text ? don't see any09:56
DocScrutinizer05on the "1000" on the progress bar09:57
wpwrakoh. it needed a reload. wait. now it's different :)09:57
wpwrakokay. much better ;)09:58
wpwrakbut i'd put the hover text also on the "phase progress bar". people are much more likely to find it there09:59
rohfind on hover??10:00
wpwrakthe dashed underlines of the number don't suggest hoverability - they look like a rendering problem :)10:00
rohyou know that tablet users dont see any hover?10:00
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: good point10:00
rohif its content, put it somewhere to see without hovering ,)10:00
kyakDocScrutinizer05: do you know how much discount i get from donation?10:01
DocScrutinizer05there are a few compromises10:01
wpwrakroh: http://doniv.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/evolution.jpg10:01
DocScrutinizer05kyak: 100% +2%/month10:01
rohwpwrak: hrhr... yep.. well.t hats whyt ive learned over the last few years.. dont want to explain all day? write it down. keep it short, essential. sort by importance. dont get caught on unimportant details early on.10:02
kyakDocScrutinizer05: sorry, i don't get it.. All the money i donate will then be discounted, plus 2% of that amount of money for each month between donation and buyin?10:02
DocScrutinizer05kyak: good point, we actually "optimized" that info out10:03
DocScrutinizer05kyak: simply click on "donate" ;-)10:03
rohand the questions i read in here say 'seems to be not simple enough'10:03
kyakDocScrutinizer05: ah, yeah, i was hesitant to click that before seeing "the rules" :)10:03
wpwraki'd call that financial over-engineering :) on one hand, you have the risk of it all coming to nothing, on the other hand, you have a high-precision discount calculation. those germans are weird ;-)10:04
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: what's the alternative? 10:05
DocScrutinizer05offering discount based on dice-rolling?10:05
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: "you will receive a discount roughly in the order to your donation (details to be defined as we progress)"10:06
kyakit doesn't ship to Russia though -\10:07
rohnoone sane ships phones to russia10:08
kyakthat's not quite true10:08
rohkyak: i know quite some small phone vendors, and none of them ships directly to within russia. simply not possible without high risk of getting the device impounded and destroyed10:09
wpwrakroh: are you insulting the mafia ? :)10:09
rohwpwrak: no. not at all. the mob doesnt have that issues. they simply buy abroad.10:09
rohthat only hurts the regular society10:10
rohkyak: its a GOST-R certification which you need afaik. but i dont know the details10:15
DocScrutinizer05ask paul fertser ;-D10:16
DocScrutinizer05it been an endless pain even for Nokia to send that hostmode devel device to him10:17
DocScrutinizer05I can't recall if in the end he been able to claim it from customs10:17
rohwell.. the customers of such devices within russia usually know and let it be shipped outside the country, and then fetch it privately. there are no limitiations on what phones you got in your pockets, just the ones 'imported' as shipment10:18
rohand the russian customs seem to be quite good at their job10:19
whitequarkroh: not sure what you're talking about, people buy phones shipped by mail all the time, including me, several times10:19
whitequarkif you buy *one* phone no one cares. at all10:19
rohwhitequark: well-.. i got told otherwise.10:19
rohbut those guys sell 'special' phones  ;)10:20
whitequarkroh: you can get bad luck with postal service but it doesn't really depends on what you're shipping.10:20
whitequarkthere's a service specializing in helping people get stuff off ebay. the only advice it gives is "instead of iphone write used phone in customs declarations". that's all. it's a regular parcel otherwise.10:21
rohwhitequark: well.. if its a 4-digit priced device they confiscate10:25
whitequarkroh: 4-digit sure, it's over a limit... I think it's $1k or $1.5k10:25
whitequarkphones usually arent that expensive10:25
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: for paul that been quite different. ONE N900 shipped to a commercial addr (since you CANNOt ship to private addr at all), and customs or DHL or whoever first asked for some 150EUR to process, then customs refused to hand out the device since some paper missing or sth10:26
rohDocScrutinizer05: well.. thats why its important to get your paperwork correct ;)10:26
whitequarkin those cases you usually ask the seller to underwrite the price, this also helps with stealing, but if you *want* to do it legally for some weird reason...10:26
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: how long ago it was? afaik the rules were changed recently.10:26
DocScrutinizer05roh: that paper was sth even Nokia never heard of10:27
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: maybe 2 or 3 years ago10:27
whitequarkhm, strange10:27
whitequarkidk about commercial rules, they're probably much more of a pain10:28
DocScrutinizer05it been endless agony10:28
DocScrutinizer05and THAT'S the reason Russia isn't available on GolDeliCo's dropdown10:29
DocScrutinizer05we dunno how to properly ship10:30
DocScrutinizer05see "Note: ..." on https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Neo90010:30
rohDocScrutinizer05: from my pov: i'd never try direct worldwide salses and shipping again. not like we did.10:33
rohif there would be 'one' webshop, then only when you got a distributor doing the shipping/taxes/money handling for each of the regions and ship within these (and take care of the importing from where you build the product)10:34
DocScrutinizer05roh: asking you about that shipping service is already on my todo list :-)10:35
rohthe regions and paperworks are simply too different.. also tax systems etc.. warranty handling, garbage disposal fees.. so many details10:35
DocScrutinizer05luckily building fab is in Bavaria ;-D10:36
rohso: if you want to sell to $region.. get a regional distributor who already did all of that (shipping, handling rma/customer service, payment) and especially the import into that region10:36
rohthen you are in luck when it comes to europe. the rest gets more complicated... well... you still need a WEEE number and some stuff, but thats about it.10:36
DocScrutinizer05roh: we're currently hoping for a 200 devices to ship10:37
DocScrutinizer05probably the most sane thing is to just say "sorry, please find a way around our limitations, maybe you have a friend in another country..."10:38
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus already started headdesking while implementing Japan and Brazil to the webshop10:39
rohwell.. weee is madness enough for europe.. and CE and whatnot10:40
DocScrutinizer05kyak: thanks for bringing up the missing rebate note12:56
DocScrutinizer05interim fix implemented12:57
DocScrutinizer05better one later12:57
kyakDocScrutinizer05: np!16:14
wpwrakif you (well, whoever does that page ... dos1 ?) want to go that deep into Web magic, you could perhaps have clickable phases that then show a pop-up with a quick summary of what completing the phase means. 16:20
wpwrakas far as i can see, there's no indication anywhere now what the phases accomplish. so anyone who hasn't been following things from the beginning would now feel a little list16:21
dos1wpwrak: yep, it's already on my list16:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: yep, good point. Alas I have to push dos1 a bit to do such changes16:23
wpwrakhehe :)16:23
wpwrakyou could also have a link "What are these phases ?" to a page with explanations. may be easier.16:24
DocScrutinizer05I also sugested to do a hover-text on the progress bar itself that shows details as of https://shop.goldelico.com/campaign/9603.php16:24
DocScrutinizer05WOW another 700 donation16:25
DocScrutinizer05we're pretty quiet meanwhile, some 3..6 donations per day16:26
DocScrutinizer05still some chances to reach the 200 at least, before we have to rethink the project16:26
DocScrutinizer05and I'm wondering how we could make good use of this one: http://shop.goldelico.com/campaign/9603.php?cmd=statistics16:28
DocScrutinizer05maybe a link "it's more fun to compete!" ? at least that been what users gave as rationale when asking for it ;-)16:28
kyakDocScrutinizer05: could you explain one thing for me? If you return back most of the donated money as a rebate, how will development be sponsored?16:29
DocScrutinizer05the development is included in final price of device16:29
DocScrutinizer05that's one of the reasons why devices get the cheaper the more orders we receive16:30
kyakok, thi makes sense16:30
dos1I don't think reaching 200 will be hard, I even wonder if we aren't already there with all people who just want to wait till real preorders16:30
DocScrutinizer05actually 15k are basically completely R&D16:30
dos1but 1000 is surely a challenge16:30
DocScrutinizer05the remaining 10k to the 25k-goal are used entirely for additional prototypes16:31
DocScrutinizer05at least that's the plan16:32
kyaksay, you released the first 1000 batch. There are no R&D costs for the following batches. Does it mean they will be cheaper?16:32
kyakand what is your plan regarding further batches? Will you gather preorders and then produce the batch?16:33
DocScrutinizer05well, we haven't decided on that yet, but most likely they will get a bit cheaper, but also bring us into the profit zone finally16:33
DocScrutinizer05and yes, we never will produce huge batches in advance16:34
DocScrutinizer05always basically build-to-order16:34
DocScrutinizer05at least for the first few k devices16:34
DocScrutinizer05for the first 1000 this is still a "non-profit" enterprise16:36
DocScrutinizer05i.o.w. when I'd do this under standard commercial conditions (and the other ones involved as well), the device would have to be 3 times as expensive for a batch of 20016:37
DocScrutinizer05or 5 times16:38
kyakok, i see16:38
DocScrutinizer05I already invested 2 .. 3 man-months "for free", and I expect to do another 3 months when getting paid for maybe one of them, if at all16:39
kyakdid you do everything from scratch?16:39
DocScrutinizer05I'm fine with it since I just want to *build* that thing, not get rich with it16:40
kyakthe motherboard part seems especially hard to me16:40
DocScrutinizer05but eventually, you want to think about actually earning your bagels with your daily work16:40
DocScrutinizer05my hopes for that are as low as my hopes for a 1000devices/month16:41
DocScrutinizer05but IF that happens, we will earn some money from it too16:41
kyakthis is going to be the only open source mobile phone in production. Unfortunately, this might be it's only advantage, since the competition is strong16:42
kyakso you can only hope for enthusiasts16:43
DocScrutinizer05well, there are a few other selling points, like e.g. kbd16:43
kyaki agree16:43
DocScrutinizer05which is a pretty strong selling point16:43
kyakit's just that iphone 5s 16 Gb is approximately the same price, and if a humble guy browsing for a new phone see the two, he wouldn't hesitate to choose iphone16:44
kyakbut the keyboard.. yes, it's good! to the hell those touchscreens16:45
DocScrutinizer05we're not interested in that group of customers16:46
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 explicitly does NOT compete to japanese and korean smartphones16:46
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 is *open*16:47
DocScrutinizer05not shiny and fast and cheap16:47
DocScrutinizer05it's just faste *enough*16:48
DocScrutinizer05fast even16:48
kyakthen it is inherently targeted for enthusiasts16:48
DocScrutinizer05since we don't run crappy android that needs 2GB and a quadcore or it will suck donkeyballs16:48
kyakjust remember the Ben, same thing. Targeted for enthusiasts, and it's dead now16:49
kyakwe played around with it, we move on16:49
DocScrutinizer05we also don't want damn "leete multitouch capacitive"16:49
DocScrutinizer05kyak: we had that discussion about a zillion times during last 3 months16:49
kyakbtw, don't get me wrong. I want me next phone to be Neo900 :) i;m just being pessimistic16:50
DocScrutinizer05again: we target at a batch of 20016:50
DocScrutinizer05if we reach 1000 I'm deeply impressed and happy as a clam16:50
wpwrak(compete) you should put the per capita amount for the respective country :)16:52
DocScrutinizer05that's derived values16:52
DocScrutinizer05easy to calculate for dos116:53
DocScrutinizer05(user base) we had such amazing success with the fundraiser since we prepared our complete potential user base for 2 months at least, before we went online with the fundraiser. Everybody was eager to see this happen finally. Once everybody who planned to do had put his pledge, the donations stalled and there we are now16:55
DocScrutinizer05we won't magically find new huge interested communities16:55
DocScrutinizer05the occasional surfer who learned about N900 and maemo via the Neo900 "hype" on media, maybe16:56
rohthe most important point is not to promise and then not deliver.16:57
wpwraki think you even shouldn't try to enlist a lot more people. go with the enthusiasts for now, see how things go. if you hit a snag, they'll be friendly. less stress for you when something goes wrong.16:57
rohdoing what one says counts most from my pov.16:57
DocScrutinizer05and those who followed the adventure since months but currently don't have the money to spare16:57
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: sure16:57
DocScrutinizer05roh: any indications we might fail to do so?16:58
rohnope. just wanted to address that point.16:58
DocScrutinizer05that been my point #1 from very beginning16:58
rohdo what you say and not change course 10 times on the way is worth a lot.16:58
DocScrutinizer05and the reason it took 6 weeks until we finally opened the fundraiser16:59
rohgtg... bbl16:59
DocScrutinizer05we had to make sure we actually can deliver on 95% of what we promise16:59
wpwrakroh: i couldn't possibly think of an example where frequent course changes would have been a problem ;-)16:59
DocScrutinizer05no way, always is a brilliant idea, wpwrak X-P17:00
kyakwpwrak: how come that you don't take part in this, anyway?17:00
DocScrutinizer05last project that did this went so awesome, I had to leave or I couldn'z stand the awesomeness ;-)17:01
DocScrutinizer05kyak: who knows, maybe he surprises us with a ready-made port of some great OS. How could you tell he won't?17:03
DocScrutinizer05kyak: we also already might have hired wpwrak as our main tester17:04
kyakyou are safe then :)17:05
DocScrutinizer05and obviously we receive a lot of premium-class review of our business model and ... DUH17:05
DocScrutinizer05I hope that wasn't a ragequit? :-o17:05
DocScrutinizer05did I say sth inappropriate?17:07
kyakwell, there is no such word as ragequit in my dictionary, so you might :)17:07
Action: DocScrutinizer05 likes to blame Argentinian usual Friday brownout17:09
DocScrutinizer05or maybe it was *you* who insulted him with your question?17:10
kyakDocScrutinizer05: site mentiones that one can disable GSM modem from software, to really make sure you are not being spyied. Does it mean that you also have control over what's inside modem?17:10
Action: kyak suddenly changed the topic :)17:10
DocScrutinizer05no, but we have quite good indications that there's no micro-plutonum-battery inside our modem module, and that TX doesn't work without power17:11
DocScrutinizer05and when the modem is off, it's off. It's hard to come up with a story how it a) could magically self-summon and b) do so without linux noticing such odd behaviour17:12
DocScrutinizer05plus we plan to make sure that the linux system definitely gets to know when modem starts TX17:14
kyakok.. 17:14
kyakdo you plan to go through any kind of certification?17:14
kyakwith this device17:14
DocScrutinizer05plus we have a way to disable the GPS antenna17:14
DocScrutinizer05CE, and modem is precertified17:14
DocScrutinizer05so it's not entirely illegal ;-)17:15
kyakok, at least it will not fry anyone's brains :)17:15
DocScrutinizer05nah, it should be pretty fine with CE and modem calibrated and certified17:17
DocScrutinizer05networks will only be able to tell from IMEI that it's not a "regular" consumer device17:17
kyakwhat does it mean?17:19
DocScrutinizer05maybe such parameters like SWR or sensitivity are not 100% in line with what a carrier cert would require, so in the end AT&T might not "allow" the phone on their network (afaik AT&T is the only carrier that is that strict with requiring a special cert of all mobile devices used on their networks)17:20
DocScrutinizer05but I bet they don't care as long as you don't tell them the build and brand of the phone you want to use that SIM with that you just are going to purchase17:21
kyakthey definitely don't care in Russia.. There is a shitload of chinese 3G USB modems and nobody cares17:21
DocScrutinizer05sure thing :-)17:22
kyakso it will present itself as just one of those unknown devices?17:22
kyakdo phone manufacturers have IMEI ranges assigned to them?17:22
DocScrutinizer05e.g. Korea (iirc) doesn't allow any "foreign" devices in their network, you need to register IMEI of each device you want to use on their networks and changing IMEI is a real crime there17:23
DocScrutinizer05and yes17:23
wpwrakgrmbl. link dropped.18:27
wpwrakkyak: got my hands full with anelok :)18:27
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: oh, and what EDA suite will you use for the schematics ?18:27
DocScrutinizer05no idea18:28
DocScrutinizer05so far Nikolaus refused to hand out any schematics project files to anybody18:28
DocScrutinizer05so worst case I will use whatever I like and it's nikolaus' problem to copy whatever I come up with18:29
wpwrakoh, he released no schematics ? that's weird18:29
DocScrutinizer05but we haven't talked about that topic recently18:29
DocScrutinizer05no project files18:30
DocScrutinizer05you're free to guess what EDA used by looking at the schem pdf18:30
DocScrutinizer05kinda looks like eagle to me18:30
DocScrutinizer05but not sure about it18:31
DocScrutinizer05anyway the schematics are not exactly my style, particularly the wired gnd 18:31
DocScrutinizer05makes my head explode18:32
wpwrakheh :)18:32
wpwraki also see a lot of things drawn on top of each other18:32
wpwrake.g., page 6 of http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/get/GTA04.sch.pdf18:33
wpwrakthe descriptions of the caps on the left overlap18:33
DocScrutinizer05oh, the labels, yeah18:33
wpwrakyes, and the labels (the arrow boxes) get even worse18:34
DocScrutinizer05if the project files were available, I had cleaned that up some 2 years ago already18:35
wpwrakyeah, it's eagle. says so in the PDF.18:35
DocScrutinizer05mhm, thought as much18:35
DocScrutinizer05know my eagle ;-P18:35
DocScrutinizer05always looks like XXX18:36
wpwrakpage 11, the resistor on top, R1107, that's an interesting trace below it :)18:36
DocScrutinizer05wired GND, toldya18:37
wpwrakwired and weird :)18:38
wpwrak(certifications) i wonder if you shouldn't sell the thing as a kit. that often lets you dodge ugly regulations that would apply to ordinary consumer products.18:43
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you passed EUR 2^15 :)19:40
DocScrutinizer05(cert) Nikolaus evaluated that issue, I won't redo that 19:41
DocScrutinizer05seems GolDeliCo got it sorted for GTA0419:41
DocScrutinizer05anyway he mentioned we need CE19:41
DocScrutinizer05but that's it19:42
wpwrakno crazy things like timbuktu requiring a written instructions in whatever they speak in timbuktu ? :) (like the thing that happened to the pebble in germany)19:47
larscKoyrao Chiini19:53
wpwrakyeah :) and let's not forget the "no power supplies to argentina" rule. actually, what does the n900 use ? some barrel, usb, or proprietary ?19:57
ysionnea1is qi-hardware git having issues? I cannot clone wernermisc.git22:27
ysionnea1it timesout22:27
pcercueiit does that from time to time22:28
ysionnea1I guess I should call it a day :)22:29
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/zstack.pl: use the entire number for (x, y, z0) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/ff5b4a122:33
wpwrakworks for me :)22:33
ysionneaufatal: unable to connect to projects.qi-hardware.com:22:35
ysionneauprojects.qi-hardware.com[0:]: errno=Operation timed out22:35
ysionneausays that to me22:36
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: using N900 case we're pretty much limited to USB (and inductive charging if user wants to do hw mod)22:47
DocScrutinizer05I'll provide a howto for creating gld plated contacts on backsice for a cradle with charger pogopins though22:48
DocScrutinizer05gold* & backside*22:49
DocScrutinizer05on my todo list for N900 since long time, but awkward due to missing convenient contacts to the charging circuitry. For Neo900 we will make sure it's easy to retrofit22:50
DocScrutinizer05particularly since IIRC TPS65950 has dual-power support22:51
DocScrutinizer05so we wouldn't even need to mess with primary charging via USB22:51
wpwrakoh, usb charging is great. i love it. worldwide standard, easy to find chargers (even if they're called "pcs"), you just need a bit of patience23:18
--- Sat Nov 9 201300:00

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