#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2013-11-04

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: use "eq" for string equality, not "==" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/306766502:25
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2d2z.pl: new options -x and -y to flip on X and Y axis (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/e82667e02:25
rohhm. whats this ybox for?03:47
wpwrakit's for connecting anelok in a host role to a device, with power coming from some USB power source. basically a "y-cable", but in the form of a box (y-cables with the desired characteristics don't seem to exist off the shelf)03:49
whitequarkwpwrak: wait, you want to implement usb *host* in anelok? why?03:50
wpwrakschematics: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybox-20131025.pdf03:51
wpwrakwhitequark: e.g., to connect a keyboard03:51
wpwrakbe it for local editing (think password database management) or for a pass-through mode where you type on the keyboard and anelok sends your keystrokes to the pc (via rf).03:52
whitequarkhm, sounds complicated03:52
wpwrakit is. there may be better ways to do this further down the road, but they would require more difficult electronics03:53
wpwrake.g., i'd have to use a larger MCU. the one i use now has just one USB OTG port. a more streamlined design would need two ports.03:54
whitequarkdo you intend to get certifications on anelok?03:57
whitequarkpretty sure usb expressly forbids that03:57
wpwrakone more reason not to waste money on such certificates :)03:58
DocScrutinizer05there are certifications you should be proud of NOT being entitled to and NOT comply to their rules. USB cert is one of them, FSF free hardware is evidently another one08:59
rohheh. what fsf endorsed hw did get you in that mood?09:05
ysionneauwhat's wrong with USB cert ?09:05
DocScrutinizer05GTA04, roh10:20
DocScrutinizer05the idiotic take of FSF on WLAN firmware blob10:20
DocScrutinizer05ysionneau: USB cert forbids certain function combinations and certain hw configs (more than one USB port in OTG devices for example). I don't like when cert authorities forbid me adding features to my hardware10:22
larscso wpwrak wouldn't get a cert either way10:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: ^^^ this would most likely make it pretty hard for ANELOK to get any USB cert anyway. So you better forget about it all together10:23
DocScrutinizer05after all who needs a "USB2.0OTG" stamp on a device? I raher have the function than the stamp10:24
lekernelthe same people who needed me to have a "EHSM e.V." stamp for some paperwork, I guess10:25
larscwho were those people?10:25
lekernelGerman bankers10:26
DocScrutinizer05only US bankers are worse10:27
ysionneauDocScrutinizer05: ah indeed :(10:32
ysionneauthat sucks10:32
DocScrutinizer05ohwell, I wish Nikolaus already would fix the database to include the once-rejected and now re-confirmed donations11:21
DocScrutinizer05but... even WITH that 4k we're still missing a 130EUR11:22
DocScrutinizer05so my "BANG!!!" was maybe a tad premature11:23
larsc25k already?11:27
wpwrakwhoa ! now the big spenders have found you :)11:41
larscnot bad12:00
wpwrakcongratulations ! that was quick :)12:01
eintopfwhat's a neo900? :-)12:03
eintopf:O a mobile phone with a keyboard12:03
pcercueiCommonly used12:03
Action: pcercuei hates the "touchpad" and "copy-paste" combination12:04
wpwraktouchpads are a disease12:05
wpwrakafter many years of hard work, the engineers have finally discovered the worst possible solution for controlling a pointer on a mobile device. tired of choosing the lesser evil, then the whole industry enthusiastically adopted said solution.12:07
whitequarkwpwrak: what's wrong with touchpads?12:08
wpwrakmaybe we should learn from this and try to market anti-ESD mats made of kitten fur ...12:08
whitequarkI find them OK as long as your UI is not mouse-centered (which is a bad idea either way)12:08
wpwraklike, everything ? :)12:08
larscwpwrak: there is no pointer ;)12:09
whitequarkidk. of course you would be dumb to use a touchpad in a CAD system12:09
wpwrake.g., that your mouse pointer jumps around on the lightest brush, i.e., even if you didn't intend to operate the pad12:09
whitequarkbut for their use case (no space for external peripherals) they work well.12:09
whitequarkwpwrak: you seem to use shitty touchpads12:10
larscwpwrak: there is no mouse pointer on a pad12:10
wpwrakthen they all now seem to implement tap to click, turning movement into accidental clicks12:10
whitequarkthat is configurable. synclient TapButton1=012:10
wpwraklarsc: well yes, in a text console, a touch pad would probably be okay :)12:10
larscyou are thinking in desktop paradigms12:11
whitequarklarsc: please, don't tell me you're a fan of "natural scrolling"12:11
larscmakes things easier12:12
whitequarkI might not just talk to you anymore12:12
wpwrakwhitequark: nice. didn't know that command. maybe it'll make the pain a little more bearable, thanks !12:13
whitequarkwpwrak: I find recent (last 5yrs. check if it has two-finger scrolling) synaptics touchpads excellent.12:14
whitequarksynclient also allows to configure the hell out of it if you don't like how it works.12:14
whitequarkon the contrary, synaptics clones like alps/2 are completely unusable.12:14
wpwrak"TouchpadOff" looks useful ;-) should run some demon that binds it to a Fn key. first time that these would have a use ...12:18
whitequarkyou mean syndaemon? :)12:18
whitequarkoh, syndaemon turns it off when you type on the keyboard12:18
whitequarkFn key is usually handled by xorg or acpi. xorg it is for me.12:19
larscI have a alps/2 in my dell laptop, I can confirm that it is not the greatest12:21
wpwrakPalmDetect ? Jean-Luc, is it you ?12:21
larscthe only laptop where I actually use a mouse12:22
paul_boddieTouchpad hate opportunity: clear my path!12:23
wpwrakit's like the batman sign in the skies of gotham city ;-)12:24
paul_boddieEncountered a Lenovo IdeaPad recently where the buttons were actually under the bottom part of the touchpad.12:24
paul_boddieIn other words, the bottom left and right corner regions flexed to act as real buttons, but the regions were active parts of the touchpad.12:25
DocScrutinizer05[2013-11-04 13:18:10] <wpwrak> "TouchpadOff" looks useful ;-) should run some demon that binds it to a Fn key. first time that these would have a use ...12:25
DocScrutinizer05exactly what I did on my last 2 laptops12:26
paul_boddieImagine clicking on anything when touching the buttons actually moves the pointer.12:26
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: ROTFL12:27
DocScrutinizer05failwale designer job12:28
paul_boddieIn the shiny culture of today, ergonomics has been replaced by mild torture while idiots applaud and hope for their fifteen minutes of fame and validation.12:29
paul_boddieI bet the Lenovo "designer" involved uses a desktop computer.12:29
wpwrakso the voting machine parody video was actually sci-fi ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR3A9rG022M12:30
paul_boddieDocScrutinzer05: On that laptop, I ended up enabling the hateful tap-to-click and right-edge-scrolls gestures. That's how bad it was.12:34
whitequarkpaul_boddie: yes, this is very popular on today's laptops for some reason12:35
whitequarkdid they seriously saved like one hundredth of a cent by removing a single fucking button from a fucking laptop?!12:35
whitequarkit's called "clickpad" btw. probs the most moronic invention in the pc industry EVER12:35
paul_boddiewhitequark: The fake buttons? Or any buttons? Because on that Lenovo there were still buttons underneath.12:36
whitequarkpaul_boddie: my laptop has two buttons drawn but one physical button centered at the bottom of the touchpad.12:36
whitequarkneedless to say this isn't exactly user-friendly12:37
paul_boddieHorrid! It's like the buttons on my mouse (and most mice made now) which involve flexing of the plastic.12:37
paul_boddieAt least the one I have now doesn't squeak when I press the buttons like the one I took back to the store.12:38
Action: DocScrutinizer05 pets his MX-Revo mouse and wonders what's wrong with flexing/bending the plastic12:38
whitequarkum, I think mouse buttons worked by flexing the plastic since at least 1995 (I haven't seen anything older)12:38
whitequarkyes what doc says12:38
paul_boddieYou're probably right. I'm just looking at the mouse here and thinking that it doesn't look as robust as older mice.12:39
paul_boddieI bet there's a homebrew mouse scene just like the homebrew keyboard scene where people choose specific kinds of switches and buttons to meet their very high standards.12:40
whitequarkrazer ?12:40
whitequarknot homebrew I guess12:41
DocScrutinizer05actually my last model been a MouseMan Wheel and had read separate plastic buttons. It also had a 3*2*0.7cm steel plate inside to gain some weight12:41
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131104_001.jpg  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131104_002.jpg12:44
whitequarkwhat do you think about http://www.fairphone.com/ ?12:46
whitequarkidgaf about fairness, but it *seems* to say it's oshw?12:47
larsclooks like an interesting project12:48
whitequarkthe website is ridiculously uninformative. there's actually no mention of oshw, it's just some rebranded chinese android phone.12:49
whitequarkMTK6589 haha12:49
DocScrutinizer05so are you still interested in my opinion or can you already guess?12:50
whitequarkseems trivial enough12:50
DocScrutinizer05GOD is that boring when suddenly the trill decays12:51
whitequarkNews on the phone body! The original model on which Fairphone was based formerly used normal polycarbonate. Now, we can announce that after quite some tests, our manufacturer made it possible to instead use post-consumer recycled polycarbonate. That means a lot of old devices being smashed, melted and reused! And fewer CO2 emissions, of course."12:51
Action: DocScrutinizer05 takes a deep breath for fist time since 5 days12:51
whitequarkwow      such green     so cool12:51
DocScrutinizer05so FAIR12:52
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ok so, I want your neo90012:53
whitequarkbut goldelico doesn't list russia as destination12:53
whitequarkwhat do I do?12:53
DocScrutinizer05click on "Troubles with donation?"12:53
whitequarkoh, dumb me12:53
whitequarkwhy don't you accept bitcoins :D12:54
DocScrutinizer05because Tax department doesn't know what to do with bitcoins12:58
DocScrutinizer05this is a commercial site and under the rules of German taxation laws12:58
whitequarkhm, I see. also didn't german banks decide how to tax it just recently?12:59
DocScrutinizer05I know for sure I can't have a bank account on bitcoins at DeutscheBank13:00
whitequark"Virtual currency bitcoin has been recognized by the German Finance Ministry as a "unit of account", meaning it is can be used for tax and trading purposes in the country."13:00
DocScrutinizer05mhm, interesting. Thanks13:01
wpwrak"[...] bitcoin, as it could become an alternative to the euro if the single currency ever ceased to exist," yeah, i want some of that stuff too ;-)13:02
whitequarkwell, it's NBC, what do you expect?13:02
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: could you please add this link to your mail to info at goldeico ?13:02
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: already sent that, I can mention in a reply13:03
ysionneaubitcoin could never become an alternative to any money AFAIK13:08
ysionneausince it is limited in time13:08
ysionneauthere is a limited amount of bitcoins13:08
ysionneauquite limited AFAIK13:08
ysionneauit's just an experiment13:08
ysionneaumaybe the next iteration of the principle will be :)13:08
whitequarkysionneau: sorry but that's really misguided13:08
ysionneauthat's what I understood at least13:09
whitequarkbitcoins are infinitely divisible13:09
whitequarkwell, not true infinitely, but for all practical purposes they are13:09
ysionneauso we can just change the value of a bitcoin13:09
ysionneauand use sub bitcoins13:09
whitequarkyeah, at some point we'll just be operating nanobitcoins or something13:09
ysionneaubecause by becoming more rare, it will become more expensive anyway?13:10
ysionneauah, ok13:10
ysionneauso forget what I just said :)13:10
whitequarkyes, kind of13:10
whitequarkwhether the resulting deflation will kill it is subject for intensive debate.13:10
ysionneauah, so maybe I'm right, but not sure13:10
whitequarkwell, no one really knows at this point, but it definitely doesn't contain planned obsolescence13:11
paul_boddieAbout the Fairphone, although I think their ethical focus is outstanding, they let themselves down by not considering the technological issues.13:17
paul_boddieThere may be more blatant problems in how you source your minerals, but how you source your components and software also has implications.13:19
whitequarkI'm not sure how exactly a phone manufactured in china may be considered ethical in any respect13:19
paul_boddieWell, the Neo900 - at least the board - won't leave any doubts, surely. Made in Bavaria, I guess. :-)13:23
whitequarkpaul_boddie: *I* don't care whether the phone is done ethically. but those folks are hypocritical.13:25
paul_boddieI think they started out with a nice idea - get minerals from good places - and tried to run with it, but maybe they didn't know how far they'd need to run to satisfy everyone.13:26
wpwrakwell, let one group top-down and the other bottom-up. maybe they'll meet somewhere in the middle.13:29
wpwraks/group /group work/13:29
wpwrakwell, close enough :)13:29
DocScrutinizer05I think they fell for same trap like FSF - you can't build your own chips, and you can't turn around a tank like AMD or TI to make them produce chips *you* wnat to see, in a way *you* want then to get done13:30
paul_boddieOne would hope so. The Fairphone people did get some people to work on the OS, but it remains to be seen how genuinely open that work is. And there's quite a gap between that and the minerals.13:30
paul_boddieI don't think they tried to get anyone to build anything, really, or nothing like ICs. They perhaps got some component manufacturers to promise to use their ethically-sourced minerals, as I understand it.13:31
DocScrutinizer05which is wishful thinking13:32
wpwrakthey could be successful in the sense of creating awareness that the origin of those minerals matters at all. of course, many of these minerals don't really seem to be necessary anyway, so ...13:32
paul_boddieYes, you would need to supervise those manufacturers quite closely.13:33
wpwrake.g., if i want to avoid "exploitative" tantalum, who not just avoid tantalum entirely ?13:33
paul_boddieOf course, some of this stuff would be easier to do if they attempted to do it on the same continent.13:33
whitequarkwpwrak: because you want nice capacitors? :)13:34
whitequarkby the way, since when donations are subject to VAT?13:45
paul_boddieI wondered about that, but I can imagine that if they count towards a purchase then they incur VAT.13:50
wpwrakwhitequark: is there anything tantalum is better at than modern ceramics ?13:50
rohwpwrak: esr stuff and low temperatures13:52
whitequark*of course* goldelico's payment processor refused my card. sigh13:54
whitequarkthis would be the first time in three years anything ever refused to accept a card13:54
ysionneauneo900 reached 25k :)14:00
ysionneaumaybe you already know.14:00
whitequarkysionneau: I know, I just want a nice phone14:01
Action: ysionneau just received the email14:02
whitequarkconsidering that unlike kickstarters joerg has a track record of delivering :)14:02
ysionneauis it the same joerg as the NetBSD/llvm developer ?14:02
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: are you?14:02
ysionneauah no it's Jörg sonnenberger (for netbsd/llvm)14:03
wpwrakroh: i kinda wonder what ESR those ceramic critters really have. it's usually no specified, but virtually everywhere where tantalum is recommended because of ESR, they say that ceramic will do, too. so it may only matter at the extreme end of the range, e.g., << 100 mOhm14:14
rohi've seen switching regulators which really need tantallum14:17
rohceramics makes them ripple more and sometimes even oscillate. depends on what temperature range you design for14:17
rohand <<100mohm is obviois.14:17
wpwraktemperature range seems to be pretty much the same. (when picking random ones. again, maybe there's a difference at the extreme range.)14:18
rohirgh. obvious... ive recently worked on a design which had a regulator in front of a 3g modem, since the voltage from the battery would drop too far when on the low end of the designed temp range, so we needed a boost14:18
rohwe made it work with 150mohm, but usual working range is better than 100, usually around 50 minimum.14:19
wpwrak(obvious) tantalum go up to a few Ohm. so low ESR isn't implied at all14:19
rohah. now i understand. yes. sure. but the ones which one selects when only tantallum is a choice... ;)14:20
wpwrakokay :)14:20
rohalso ceramics have funny effects.. they are 'wrong value' when unsoldered and only get the right one when soldered with the right solding process and temperature curve14:21
wpwrakreally ?14:21
wpwrakhow wrong ?14:21
rohup to 50%14:21
rohthere are 1% types which are more than 30% off, and after soldering properly by spec they are within that 1% margin14:22
rohelektor also had an article about that14:22
DocScrutinizer05also ceramic lose capacity with volatge applied14:23
wpwrak("burn-in") wow. that's what i call precision engineering :)14:23
DocScrutinizer05and they tend to have that nasty piezo effect14:24
DocScrutinizer05generally ceramic are non-linear14:24
wpwrakyes, piezo could be a real issue14:26
sanderrArgh.. every time I see ESR, I read Eric S. Raymond. Guess I'm too much into FOSS. :)14:29
sanderrBut that ESR doesn't mix well with low Ohm values.14:30
larscElectro Static Recharge?14:48
sanderrlarsc: No, it Equivalent Series Resistance in this case.15:00
larscI know, just trying to be funny ;)15:04
wpwrakEthereal String Resonance16:28
wpwrakhmm, that could be the title of a big bang theory episode :)16:29
whitequarkactually, one sec16:31
dos1three things one needs to be happy :)16:32
wpwrakit would be so much more fun to serve a product called "illy" on a boat, were severe motion sickness is quite a possibility16:34
whitequarkwpwrak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Current_Suppression_Ring16:39
whitequark*not* what you'd expect.16:39
wpwrakheh, indeed ;-)16:42
whitequarkthe music is meh16:43
whitequarkbut the name is great.16:43
dos1DocScrutinizer05: Neo900 request - support IEEE 802.15.4 for atben compatibility! :D17:36
wpwrakif the uSD slot is externally accessible or can be made accessible, you could just plug in an atben.17:45
wpwrakelse, you'd depend on having enough "embedded air" to add a board. that may be trickier.17:45
dos1with some "mugen cover" it could maybe work after making a small hole in it17:50
dos1but that's not very convienent solution :P17:50
wpwrakit's generally hard to add that sort of extension to a high-density device. that you could do such things at all with the openmoko phones says something about the efficiency of the case design.17:59
dos1that's why I'm requesting it before it gets designed ;)18:02
dos1two-pcb sandwich approach may give us additional space for crazy stuff, and *maybe* it would be feasible to consider 802.15.418:03
dos1probably at low priority, but still, that would be fancy ;)18:04
wpwraksome TPs and a bit of free space in that general area would be nice for this sort of projects. not sure if they have room, though18:04
wpwrakhmm. cut a 1.6 mm board with 0.8 mm settings. what could possibly go wrong ? :(19:06
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