#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2013-11-02

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cae-tools/cameo/fped2stl.pl (flush): substitute coordinates only once (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/e62da4e00:20
DocScrutinizer05aaaaand level-II accomplished18:13
wpwrakwhoo !18:15
wpwrakbefore you know it, you'll have one of those 100x over-funded projects on your hands ;-)18:16
larsctime to start looking for a nice island in the caribbean to buy ;)18:24
DocScrutinizer0515k in 3 days isn't that bad18:51
DocScrutinizer05particularly *donations*, not any preorder with refunding warranty crap kickstarter18:52
DocScrutinizer05and still a lot of "destinations" is not even supported (quite unfortunate :-/ )18:52
DocScrutinizer05I had 3 requests from users in china and other non supported destinations just today. Poor Nikolaus will receive a number of emails18:54
DocScrutinizer05roh: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1383978#post138397818:55
wpwrakoh, indeed. about half the planet is excluded.18:57
wpwrakno latin america, no africa, no middle east or india, no russia, china, taiwan and many of the other smaller asian countries18:58
rohDocScrutinizer05: congrats18:58
rohDocScrutinizer05: whats not clear to me: how is the maemo5 stuff you want to use (am i correct there) tied to the jolla stuff=18:59
DocScrutinizer05jolla? not at all19:00
rohi see. i thought jolla is 'just' harmattan with much more development added19:01
rohwell.. interresting things happening. nice to see your project proceed19:02
DocScrutinizer05maybe jolla aka sailfish is kinda "just harmattan" but actually harmattan is not just maemo19:05
DocScrutinizer05and on Neo900 we run fremantle, not harmattan19:06
DocScrutinizer05fremantle==maemo5, harmattan==meego (aka maemo6_almost)19:06
DocScrutinizer05probably harmattan is closer to sailfish than to fremantle19:07
DocScrutinizer05well, s/sailfish/nemo/ (aiui)19:07
rohi see19:08
DocScrutinizer05the whole concept of meego/harmattan based on QML and thus is kinda similar to other browser-based "OS" (rather: "desktops") basically19:11
DocScrutinizer05you still *can* develop plain X11 apps usng whatever toolkit for gfx you like19:12
DocScrutinizer05on sailfish/nemo they use some Qt flavour still, I think, but they discarded X11 and go for some wayland crap that not even supports X11 via compatibility layer anymore19:13
DocScrutinizer05for me that starts to tase stale, when it's abled 'linux'19:14
DocScrutinizer05labeled even19:14
DocScrutinizer05kinda reminds me at that qtopia episode19:15
DocScrutinizer05to me sailfish is as much linux as OSX19:18
DocScrutinizer05and it's completely up to everybody's guess how open the whole jolla phone and OS incl core apps will be in the end. It seems they again go for "differnetiation" and similr excuses to not make their core apps like dialer etc or even the whole desktop FOSS19:20
DocScrutinizer05and definitely the whole UX concept moved focus from the NIT-paradigm to the smartphone/iPhone-MeToo-thinking19:22
DocScrutinizer05"user doesn't need a unix system. User wants apps"19:22
DocScrutinizer05"we go wayland so we can playback HD" - WTF?!? Who needs HD on a 4" display?19:23
DocScrutinizer05play your dang HD to the HDMI output (so there's any such thing on your hw) using a mplayer specialized to do exactly that19:24
DocScrutinizer05leave alone the device display and the display server that handles it!19:25
DocScrutinizer05playback of HD on a 800*480 (or whatever) display - I must suffer from delusions19:26
wpwrakwell, they're putting ultra-high-res displays into those obesity-enhanced "phones" now. probably to give that hecacore something that will keep it at least 10% occupied.19:31
DocScrutinizer05and special siuts that have dynomos at every joint, so you recharge the 7Ah battery with every move you do19:33
DocScrutinizer05grr. suits, dynamos*19:34
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: sort layers by Z position (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/4fa9e1221:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: new options -x and -y to flip on X and Y axis (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/5b70e9221:07
wpwrakCAD modeling, the Bruce Willis way :)22:48
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: arguably there *is* an advantage for high-res displays. they just look nicer.22:54
whitequarkyou may not care for the quality of the thing you stare at for the better time of the day, but I do. the more DPI, the better (until it hits the resolution of the eye.(22:54
whitequarkbtw, another thing wayland solves is display tearing, which *is* important when you want to have smooth animations, which *are* important to have usable touch UI22:55
whitequarkit's somewhat overhyped, yeah, but unimportant? no way in hell. if you weren't doing a touch device at all, now that would be interesting, but as long as you do, you have to play by the rules.22:56
wpwrakthe problem with high-res is sourcing. there are three interconnected parameters, 1) bleeding edge, 2) openness, 3) your wealth. you have to sacrifice at least one.23:04
wpwrakso if you want bleeding edge AND openness, you better be prepared to purchase a company like broadcom, qualcomm, or similar, just to get the rights needed to open a bleeding edge product.23:05
wpwrakif you want bleeding edge and don't have that kind of money, you have to live with closed hardware.23:06
whitequarkthat's true. I just wanted to say that bleeding edge is not all just bells and whistles, regardless of whether we can tap it or not23:07
wpwrakor you lower your demands in the bleeding edge area, and you have a chance to get something done that's open and still doesn't require millions23:07
wpwrakyeah, it offers some benefits. but in many cases, you only notice them in a side-by-side comparison.23:08
whitequarkwell, if not for side-by-side comparisons, we'd still all be running windows mobile 5 :) it all depends on what's your top priority.23:09
whitequarkwait, russia is not a supported destination for neo900?.. sigh23:10
dos1isn't the dpi of devices like freerunner or n900 already high enough to be near eye resolution?23:11
wpwrakfor me the main goals would be 1) does it handle basic everyday use well ? (e.g., if it already sucks to send an SMS, i may not like it)  2) is there a good way for people like me to add nice things ?  3) will it live long enough to actually make it worth my time to learn about all the cool things it can do ?23:11
dos1russia is supported, but via individual contact23:11
whitequarkdos1: not nearly. my e973 has 320 dpi and it's slightly lower. I think at typical view distance for phones it's around 350 dpi.23:12
wpwrakdos1: the gta01/gta02 had, at their time, the highest resolution in the market. probably by a good margin. i think that proves that resolution alone isn't enough :)23:13
whitequarkwpwrak: (main goals) I agree, though to me there's less of 3), and more of "do I will resent myself every day for buying this device at all?"23:13
wpwrakand of course, they were darn slow as a consequence. especially after adding the g-lam(e)-o graphics decelerator :-)23:14
wpwrakwhitequark: i count on superior human adaptation skills ;-)23:14
whitequarkwpwrak: actually, neo900 isn't that not-bleeding-edge23:15
whitequarkplenty of RAM, more storage than my current phone, decent sensors and communications and camera23:16
wpwrakwhitequark: and usability is much much more than just pretty pictures. you have to understand the workflow. e.g., once had an HP 100LX, monochrome CGA. it had a calendar with a great monthly overview. i've never seen anything like that afterwards. it wasn't fancy, far from it. just a very clean and efficient implementation of the concept.23:16
whitequarkwpwrak: (main goals) I agree, though to me there's less of 3), and more of "do I will resent myself every day for buying this device at all?"23:17
whitequarkwhat the hell irssi23:17
whitequarkwhat I wanted to say: "the CPU isn't dual-core, but that's not going to matter with the smaller display, I think"23:18
whitequarkif it does the job well, the only thing I would truly miss when compared to my current phone is 802.11a23:18
whitequarkwell, an23:18
whitequarkit's weird when your cellular is faster than your wifi23:19
whitequarkwpwrak: (usability) sure, but FOSS isn't exactly known by its great UI.23:19
wpwrak1 x 1 GHz ought to be plenty :) i kinda wonder by how many orders of magnitude, say, android applications are slower than just native C would be.23:20
whitequarkwpwrak: for non-computational workloads, by not much. it much more depends on, say, properly tuned GC and task priorities than raw computing power.23:20
whitequarkalso, on android you can always drop down to native.23:20
wpwrakusability is mainly about workflows. most of the things you do, you do often. so a nice gui helps you on the first two days, but doesn't matter all the years after.23:21
whitequarkit's not "nice" as in "intuitively understandable" (no such thing?), but just well-done. I don't want my everyday workflows to take 5x more time than necessary.23:22
wpwrakhmm, then they must have lots of delay_loop_ms(10); in their code ;-) or maybe all the supercharged cores are indeed just idling :)23:22
whitequarkwpwrak: android <4 used to not prioritize GUI like iphone did, hence it felt *much* more sluggish than iOS on slower hw23:23
wpwrakyes, agreed. efficient workflows. show me what i need, let me do what i want, and (often overlooked) let me undo my mistakes.23:23
whitequarkandroid 4 fixed that, in 4.4 they did tons of changes to GC which should make it even better. 23:23
wpwrakwell, that sounds like inefficient toolkits or inefficient use of them23:24
wpwrakheh, that's what you get for using languages with GC ;-)23:24
whitequarkremember that it was originally developed for keyboard interaction, not touchscreen23:24
DocScrutinizer05I think anything >>300dpi is nonsense23:24
whitequarkand with keyboard you don't have to center all your flow around smooth drawing23:25
wpwrakin the old days, you probably wouldn't even have implemented free() or GC if you had had 1 GB of RAM, since you could never fill that anyway ;-)23:25
whitequarkandroid predates touchcraze by several years23:25
DocScrutinizer05unless that's a headmounted display23:25
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: you're right, I got wrong numbers.23:25
whitequarkretina is exactly 300dpi23:25
whitequarkwell, exactly 326. :)23:25
whitequarkso my LG should be somewhat under that.23:26
whitequark(retina) as in iphone display.23:26
wpwrakopenmoko had some 283 dpi. that was pretty crazy.23:26
dos1n900 is 267 dpi23:26
wpwrakmore than enough :)23:26
whitequarkdos1: so, about same. nice.23:27
dos1and openmoko devices came years before apple "retina" displays :)23:27
DocScrutinizer05and HD is what? 1080 lines? per 2"? 1.5"? on a usual normal sized phone like jolla23:27
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: 720 usually23:27
whitequark1080 could be on galaxy note, passionately called "the shovel" in russia23:28
whitequark(not joking)23:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: hmm, careful with "microSDHC". that name may be dangerous to use.23:28
whitequarkdos1: ok, so you *do* send to russia with personal contact?23:28
wpwrakat least wolfgang mentioned that several times. (similar with MicroSD and such)23:29
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw, the fancy specs page mentions LTE as a given but goldelico one says 4G is optional23:30
whitequarkwhich one is right?23:30
DocScrutinizer05see faq23:30
whitequarkI see23:30
dos1whitequark: it might require some "workarounds", but I think there were already some successful goldelico buyers from Russia23:32
whitequarkdos1: would you say be able to just use fedex?23:32
whitequarkor dhl, *not* state postal service specifically23:32
DocScrutinizer05btw CBA to sign up to openphoenux ML to answer NeilBrown23:33
whitequarkalso, what would I need to select in the destination box at goldelico?23:33
DocScrutinizer05SIR should work without any initialization, OMAP3 UART3 supports it on hw level. So why shouldn't bootconsole on UART3 work via SIR?23:34
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: what you need is procmail. then you can subscribt to all the lists you might possibly be interested in and have the stuff just go to a folder you never have to look at unless something really matters to you23:35
DocScrutinizer05and worst case we use IR LED like a wire to thransmit raw unencoded 8N1, stopbit dark, startbit light23:35
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I can do that with my mail client as well23:36
DocScrutinizer05but still I need to register to the ML to answer23:36
DocScrutinizer05of course I could answer to the CC that got me this mail from NeilBrown, and it would reach him and Nikolaus to deal with the external post to ML. But... CBA23:37
DocScrutinizer05it happens that N900 maemo kernel bootconsole is already on UART323:39
wpwrakyou must have some horrible repressed childhood memories related to mailing lists :)23:39
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