qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: bin/authors: only include files that still exist (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a2a7293 | 00:16 |
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whitequa1k | someone *really* wanted to learn something about wolfgang... "/qi-hardware/search?q=wolfspraul&page=100" :) | 05:08 |
larsc | or only the dark secrets listed on the last pages | 06:58 |
whitequa1k | it's in chronological order, not reverse chronological | 07:02 |
whitequa1k | actually I should fix that, it makes zero sense | 07:02 |
whitequa1k | fixed. | 07:12 |
larsc | hm? | 07:13 |
whitequa1k | well, dark secrets are supposed to be old, aren't they? | 07:17 |
whitequa1k | and page 100 is recent events. | 07:18 |
larsc | ah | 07:19 |
kyak | what's so special on page 100 that one could learn about wolfgang? | 07:21 |
kyak | whitequa1k: the links with page numbers overlap the text that was found (in firefox) | 07:21 |
kyak | if there are a lot of pages (like in this case) | 07:22 |
whitequa1k | kyak: yeah I know | 07:22 |
whitequa1k | but I'm really bad with CSS | 07:23 |
whitequa1k | the channel names also don't scroll... and it looks horrible on mobile devices overall | 07:23 |
kyak | the channel list fits on my screen, luckily :) | 07:25 |
larsc | ah, HURD 0.5 was released, so only another 30 years until 1.0 ;) | 18:43 |
ysionneau | ahah | 18:43 |
viric | I hope this pulls some hackers in | 18:45 |
ysionneau | is it really worth it? I don't know enough about HURD | 18:45 |
ysionneau | Has it a lot of developers? Why so? | 18:46 |
whitequark | I don't think so, not from a technical standpoint. It's a microkernel. | 18:50 |
larsc | And Linux is a macro kernel, because so many people are working on it? | 18:56 |
whitequark | larsc: um, wat? | 19:04 |
larsc | 'Has it a lot of developers?' 'No, it's a microkernel' | 19:04 |
whitequark | 'is it really worth it?' | 19:05 |
larsc | I know :) | 19:05 |
larsc | I just thought that would be a funny definition | 19:10 |
viric | :) | 19:10 |
whitequark | perhaps from a bloat standpoint | 19:10 |
viric | I don't know how much it is a projection of my hopes, but I like what I heard about Hurd | 19:11 |
viric | And I dislike some of the linux pieces. | 19:12 |
whitequark | what's those hurd parts? | 19:12 |
viric | for example, how common it is in linux to run most processes as one user, with a single filesystem view; | 19:12 |
viric | so any process can harm any other. Now there is USER_NS, containers, virtual machines, ... | 19:13 |
viric | seccomp, apparmor, ... | 19:13 |
viric | but all that is a hell to use. | 19:13 |
larsc | I think android runs each app as a different user | 19:13 |
viric | not to mention, many operations are allowed only to root. | 19:13 |
whitequark | it's a question of wrapping it in a pretty gown | 19:14 |
whitequark | lxc does it for you | 19:14 |
viric | larsc: I do that with sudo for the web browser and some binary programs, ... but it's uncomfortable | 19:14 |
whitequark | (root) capability system exists, but it's... less than stellar. to put it mildly. | 19:14 |
whitequark | wasn't it that CAP_NET_ADMIN meant you could trivially elevate to root | 19:15 |
viric | The per-process tweaks a user can touch are little more than 'ulimit' | 19:15 |
larsc | I think capabilities in Linux are not the same as capabilities in the mircokernel sense | 19:15 |
viric | well, I mean the hurd microkernel + userland pieces, allow users (not only root) to narrow what processes can do and see | 19:16 |
larsc | http://lwn.net/Articles/566169/ | 19:16 |
viric | larsc: I want to limit what skype can do, or firefox. :) | 19:17 |
larsc | meh, flight delayed | 19:17 |
viric | any of those could "rm -Rf $HOME", in most common scenarios | 19:18 |
viric | and cause harm | 19:18 |
larsc | yep | 19:18 |
larsc | or even worse | 19:18 |
viric | yes, or worse | 19:18 |
viric | so I don't think it's a good situation | 19:18 |
larsc | no | 19:18 |
viric | and I think hurd addresses some things. | 19:19 |
larsc | this is why browser vendors have implemented their own sandboxing | 19:19 |
larsc | a capability based system of course has the sandboxing build in | 19:19 |
whitequark | chrome uses seccomp; hardly their own | 19:19 |
viric | whitequark: and USER_NS | 19:19 |
viric | web browser vendors play whatever they can in their field: the browser. | 19:20 |
viric | they play in the browser league. But a whole OS solution should be available. | 19:20 |
viric | some people run all in virtual machines :) | 19:20 |
whitequark | that works surprisingly well. I used to do it with Xen. | 19:21 |
whitequark | I dropped it because Xen kills ACPI S3, and it kind of kills the point of having a laptop | 19:21 |
viric | it is not a solved problem in Linux | 19:22 |
whitequark | also, no hardware acceleration | 19:22 |
whitequark | ok, perhaps not well at all | 19:22 |
viric | :) | 19:22 |
viric | stallman talked about some recent Intel northbridge having an integrated computer to load firmware to | 19:23 |
whitequark | start with your wifi firmware | 19:23 |
whitequark | I bet it can become a pcie bus master | 19:23 |
whitequark | actually, I know it can. | 19:23 |
viric | :) | 19:24 |
viric | that's a good reason to dislike blobs | 19:24 |
larsc | whitequark: well seccomp-bpf was implemented by a google guy | 19:24 |
larsc | viric: that's the Intel active management stuff | 19:25 |
larsc | basically a second processor that runs some firmware that can tap into peripherals | 19:25 |
viric | he talked about some intel cpus with 3g modems integrated | 19:26 |
viric | too | 19:26 |
viric | he wasn't very happy about intel | 19:26 |
whitequark | I have a notebook with this stuff, Intel Anti-Theft or something | 19:26 |
larsc | he is never very happy | 19:26 |
whitequark | targeted at enterprise loss prevention | 19:26 |
viric | whitequark: are you the thief? | 19:26 |
viric | mh I didn't know how all this was named. thank you | 19:27 |
ysionneau | 21:13 < larsc> I think android runs each app as a different user < indeed | 19:28 |
larsc | http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/intel-active-management-technology.html | 19:28 |
viric | this way, your computer becomes something like a virtual machine with a debugger attached | 19:29 |
whitequark | it's pretty sad, because intel is not exactly known for bug-free code | 19:29 |
whitequark | this is a trove for some hacker group to feed on | 19:29 |
ysionneau | 21:26 < larsc> he is never very happy < +1 | 19:30 |
larsc | meh, the laptop battery did hardly survive one hour :/ | 19:34 |
viric | are you doing a virtual travel from the place where you did the virtual talk? | 19:40 |
wpwrak | if rms was ever "very happy", i'd be rather concerned about the immediate collateral damage those drugs might do to his physical health | 20:58 |
wpwrak | in fact, perhaps it's best to just call 911 in this case. tell them that "rms is very happy". that ought to qualify as a major emergency. | 20:58 |
wpwrak | larsc: (battery) planned obolescence vs. lars, 1:0 :) | 21:00 |
ysionneau | ahah | 21:05 |
larsc | viric: did a real travel | 22:30 |
--- Mon Sep 30 2013 | 00:00 |
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