#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2013-09-10

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: sent User-Agent to "dsv/1.0" (instead of Wget/...) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/3256b0315:01
wpwrakgrmbl. s/sent/set/15:01
larschave you found some website that blocks wget?15:21
wpwrakyes. digi-key, of all places15:21
cdefacT: evil scientists use wget15:57
cdeso digi-key is making humanity safer15:57
larscyour mom uses wget!16:13
whitequarkthat was unexpected16:17
whitequarklarsc: by the way, did you like SML?16:17
whitequarkI'm now using lots of OCaml and it's great; SML strikes me as way too oversimplified and academic16:17
larscyea, SML is a language made for teaching16:18
whitequarkand for writing compilers16:18
larscbut to be honest I didn't follow the course through completely16:22
whitequarkI think I abandoned it after a week.16:24
whitequarkcoincidentally, it took about a week to learn 90% of commonly used OCaml, so it was probably a good idea to not waste time.16:24
wpwrakhmm .. where to host the pwsafe project ? qihw (in DE) or github in (the US), this is the question ...18:41
whitequarkthere's also gitorious in norway18:43
whitequarkbut I'd say github.18:43
whitequarkthey don't lock you in, so even if they do something nasty, it doesn't matter very much...18:43
larscif you want to go the free software way gitorious18:43
Action: whitequark coughs18:44
whitequarkwell, you were implying that github is "not FOSS way", and I understand your reasons18:45
larscwell gitourious is AGPL18:45
larscgithub closed source18:45
wpwrakyeah, gitorious would be the 3rd choice. haven't used them yet. let's see what they have ...18:45
larscso if you want to make a point about free software use gitorious18:46
larscif you just want a place to host your stuff use github18:46
whitequarkgitorious is ok, but they didn't put a lot of work into UI.18:47
whitequarkdepends on whether you actually want to use their website/issue tracker/etc or just leave files lying in git.18:48
larscit's opensource fit it ;)18:48
wpwraki'm also thinking of things like commit notifications in IRC. qihw has them. github as well, though some say they're not so nice. (they may mean the join/leave noise)18:48
whitequarkwpwrak: you can disable the noise18:48
larscI think you can even setup custom scripts18:48
larscfor commit hooks18:49
whitequarkthere's some combination of flags on freenode which solves that18:49
larscso you could send the update to qi-bot18:49
wpwrakwhitequark: yes, but then you need to set up the channel to allow messages from the outside18:49
whitequarkI think you can permit that only for GH?18:49
whitequarknot sure though18:49
wpwraklarsc: i'd love to just pick something that works :)18:49
whitequarklarsc: there's also http://gitlab.org/18:49
whitequarkwhich would be my choice :)18:49
larscwpwrak: ah come on, where is your spirit?18:50
wpwraksummer is coming. today it's 35 C. the air is full of pollen, because natures feels the spring. technically, it's of course still winter. so yeah, there's the spirit, a mix of hay fever, hibernation, and lazy siestas18:52
Action: whitequark . o O ( winter is coming )18:52
whitequarkwpwrak: you lucky southern hemisphere bastard!18:53
whitequarkwait. I just realized that if I fly to the opposite hemisphere each 6 months, I can have an eternal summer18:53
larsctoday was the first day I wished I had packed a headband for my way home from work18:53
larscwhitequark: or eternal winter ;)18:54
Action: whitequark shudders18:54
larscI want to have eternal early summer18:54
larsc24 degree C and I'm happy18:54
larscbut it is cooling down fast, it still was over 30 degree on saturday and about 15 today18:56
wpwrakyeah, the time right after the pollen would be good. or maybe a warm winter day, not more than 25 C, no pollen, no gnats, ...18:58
larscso yea winter is comming (funny how everybody now knows that phrase)18:58
larscwarm winter day is -10 ;)18:59
wpwrakhmm, a really cold day in buenos aires is slightly below 0 C at dawn19:00
larscok, where do I have to sign up?19:01
wpwrakbut we also have winter days that are above 20 C during the day and in the mid-10 at night. that's not so bad. you still need a jacket if you go out in the evening, but it's quite tolerable19:01
wpwraktell your boss you want to telework more :)19:01
larsche probably won't like that19:02
whitequarkno one would probably mind if I relocate to BA, but I'm somewhat hesitant19:03
larscsometimes I wish I was a webdeveloper or something, only thing you need is your laptop and your head19:04
whitequarklarsc: if you're a web developer, you don't need your brain anymore.19:04
whitequarkthat's for certain.19:04
larscI used to be a web developer19:05
larsc(when I was 14)19:05
whitequarksame here19:05
wpwrakas web developer, you'll need your laptop, your head, and a real job :)19:05
whitequark(but I was there longer, I think)19:05
larscwpwrak: it's funny but some of these jobs actually pay really well19:06
wpwrakwell, there are actually such jobs here. they recruit people who just left university, preferably within getting a diploma, pay them shit, then sell their services to clients abroad. that works pretty well19:07
wpwrakand those that pay well ... of course every lottery has some winning ticket ... ;)19:07
whitequarkare we talking about web development?19:09
wpwrakthink of it as a filter. "made it through more than one semester -> can probably read and, with the help of a team mate, write"19:11
wpwrakwell, i'm exaggerating a little. the eduction isn't so bad yet, but keeps getting worse19:11
whitequarkactually we have a sad joke here19:11
whitequark"made it through university -> can do useless stuff for higher-ups and not whine too much for five years straight"19:12
whitequark(which is sad because it isn't much of a joke)19:12
wpwrakgitorious: "wpwrak is watching" i already feel like someone's observing me :)19:13
whitequarkmost of classes, especially in less-known places, are like that... checking whether you can memorize half a hundred of pages before exam, reproduce them, and forget immediately afterwards.19:14
kristianpaul<AD> i can secure your web pages ;-) </AD>19:15
kristianpaulwpwrak: not pay shit i meant not of all then, but here are people always want to ask less money so become hard ask for more in that conditions19:16
wpwraknext, a license ... i really want to use libopencm3. alas, it's (still) under LGPL3 ...19:19
wpwrakthey're thinking of changing that to LGPL-link-with-anything (kinda LGPL as it was traditionally understood), but that hasn't happened yet and i'm not sure it ever will19:20
wpwrakhmm .. if I pick GPLv2+, that would meet the LGPLv3 compatibility (i.e., the GPLv2+ is used as meaning GPLv3+) and i think someone could still legally rewrite this to a different low-level library (replacing libopencm3), which would then allow use under GPLv2(+) conditions19:27
wpwrakdoes that sound correct ?19:28
larscwell you can always dual license22:32
larsconly the resulting binary has the restrictions22:33
wpwrakthat's what it basically would be: licensed under GPLv2+ but that's de facto elevated to GPLv3 by libopencm322:33
cdelicenses. can't live with them, can't live without them22:37
wpwrakindeed, indeed ...22:37
cdebtw what's the problem with LGPLv3?22:38
cdeit protects your freedom22:38
larsc'freedom' ;)22:39
whitequarkfreedom of your users, sure22:46
whitequarkbut certainly not yours22:46
Action: whitequark shrugs22:46
cdebut you yourself are a user whitequark. so you benefit as well22:49
whitequarkonly if I'm not a developer22:49
cdeI don't see a huge divide between users and developers. it's more of a continuum22:50
whitequarkthat's the thing with GPL: for owner, no strings are attached, because they're the owner. for users, no strings are attached, because freedom 0. developers are at the huge disadvantage.22:51
cdeon the contrary. developers gain honour and respect22:52
whitequarkif they agree with the restrictions22:53
whitequarkGPL is an offensive license. that's not inherently bad, but all the talk about how GPL is the only true free license gets tiring22:53
cdein general it's not entirely free until you assign copyright to the FSF. then it becomes truely free because the FSF will not relicense under a less free license22:54
whitequarkjust as with proprietary ones, it's not about sharing, it's all about forcing your own view of world upon someone else22:54
whitequarkfor your (not necessarily monetary, of course) advantage22:55
cdein my experience, companies will reuse whatever source code they can find without contributing back22:57
cdeconsider Apple with iOS, for instance. BSD based, and how did it benefit the BSD community?22:58
cdehmm yes you have a point22:58
cdeApple also contributed webkit so they aren't fully evil22:58
Action: whitequark sighs22:59
whitequarksee, what I'm talking about is not whether offensive license are "good" or "evil" or whatever. mainly just about calling things their true names.22:59
mthafaik Apple kept pretty much all the code they used that is BSD licensed open; it's the frameworks that were never under BSD license that they keep secret22:59
whitequarkcase in point: I've considered licensing my compiler (for embedded devices) and its stdlib under GPLv323:00
whitequark*without* linking exception.23:00
whitequark(or code generation one)23:02
mthcan you claim authorship of generated code?23:03
whitequarkmth: the idea was to say "here's the user code, and here's compiler-inserted code; they're useless without each other and certainly linked together".23:04
mthif compiler-inserted code is in chunks of nontrivial size, like the stdlib, that's certainly valid23:05
whitequarkcrudely: the body of function is user's, the prologue and epilogue are mine.23:05
mthfor code generation, I'm not so sure23:05
whitequarkwould you *want* to check this in court?23:06
mthno, but I wouldn't bet on which side would win if it did end up in court either23:06
whitequark"no". yeah, exactly what I was aiming for, see.23:07
--- Wed Sep 11 201300:00

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