#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2013-08-29

DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: ping02:46
DocScrutinizer05well actually everybody here. Look at02:47
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 02:47
DocScrutinizer05If you're interested to contribute resp participate, just ping me02:48
DocScrutinizer05there's interesting stuff to do both on the hardware side and on the kernel/system side02:49
DocScrutinizer05we'll see if this might fly or not. after 4 days we have reached ~10% of the required 200 "preorders" at our estimated sweetspot of 700EUR, and >75% of those 200 preorders at lower pricetag, which might change on either end, production price or what customers are finally willing to pay02:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: oh this is very interesting03:11
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I'm really disappoited in Android lately (you were right! why did I doubt that), so might as well try to migrate to maemo03:35
whitequarkor, hm, will it run that tizen/jolla/whatever thing which seems to *finally* begin to surface?03:36
whitequarkscrew me if I know. was there another rename?03:37
DocScrutinizer05should probably work03:37
DocScrutinizer05the comapny and device is jolla. The OS is sailfish03:37
whitequarkah I see.03:37
DocScrutinizer05or Nemo03:38
whitequarkdo you think sailfish is routinely usable?03:38
whitequarkand maemo? phone, GPS, SIP, browser... that's all I need03:38
DocScrutinizer05prolly not my fav stuff. Wayland :-/03:38
DocScrutinizer05well, all that works but is closed03:39
DocScrutinizer05browser only the UI is closed, the rendering machine begind is FOSS03:39
whitequarkwait, in maemo? closed-source browser? wtf03:39
whitequarkor in sailfish?03:40
DocScrutinizer05SIP is based on FOSS telepathy sofiasip plus closed dialer03:40
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: there are alternatives for browsers03:40
whitequarkin android I at least have AOSP :/03:41
whitequarkthis is weird03:41
DocScrutinizer05you can run firefox, or the slower(!) mobile variant, then there's opera, and also a few others I heard03:41
DocScrutinizer05some I know from GTA02 still03:41
DocScrutinizer05GPS well, there are lots of apps *using* GPS, it's via a closed liblocation.so03:42
DocScrutinizer05the apps however are all FOSS03:43
DocScrutinizer05phone is again dialer. closed03:43
whitequarkI see03:44
whitequarkthanks for the info; I'll definitely look at it closer03:44
DocScrutinizer05there are open alternatives, since in the end you just send a dbus msg to some (closed) daemon to establish the call03:44
DocScrutinizer05there's even AT interface called pnatd03:44
DocScrutinizer05used for BT-tethering and USB03:45
DocScrutinizer05sailfish guy moaned "I wish maemo's ICD2 (internet connection daemon) was FOSS! it's waaaay better than all this networkmanager and whatnot crap"03:46
DocScrutinizer05the problem with maemo is: it doesn't have a bright future (so far. I hope we will change that ;-P )03:47
whitequarkyeah, that's why I'm cautious with it03:48
whitequarkto be honest I'm surprised jolla survived and delivered anything03:48
DocScrutinizer05it's really old and rock solid03:48
whitequarkbut it's probably good they did03:48
DocScrutinizer05well, did they deliver anything? apart from some first preview of their sailfish OS03:49
whitequarkwell, that's at least a bunch of working code :)03:49
DocScrutinizer05maybe, haven't looked at it so far03:50
DocScrutinizer05anyway maemo is a proper linux. Android is not, definitely. And sailfish in my book isn't either, with their wayland crap. I know X11 / wayland is unrelated to "real linux", but hey...03:53
DocScrutinizer05basically maemo is a proper debian03:54
DocScrutinizer05sailfish, though they claim they use *only* mainline and FOSS stuff, is kinda yuck03:55
whitequarkeh, lack of X11 on my phone is definitely encouraging03:55
whitequark(though I agree with the rest of your point about proper linux)03:55
DocScrutinizer05sailfish even goes systemd :-o03:56
whitequarkwait, did I ever say sailfish was good? erase that03:56
DocScrutinizer05prolly married with Qtm03:56
DocScrutinizer05and of course PA03:56
whitequarkfull poettering.03:57
DocScrutinizer05time for breakfast and then a nap03:58
wpwrakneat. finally dumping the GTA0[12] case :)04:06
wpwraki guess the hard part will be to make the first ten units. once you have these, you're ready for kickstarter & co.04:13
whitequarkperhaps there is not enough hipsters on the project for it to succeed on kickstarter04:14
wpwrakif it doesn't take too long for the prototypes to arrive, they can ride the wave of "alternative" phones04:15
wpwrakthat should provide a nice boost, even outside the old communities04:15
whitequarkwpwrak: do you think there will be such a wave?04:15
wpwrakalso, it should be easy to emphasize anti-spying features. like the transistor the openmoko phones had between battery and GSM :)04:16
wpwrak(wave) some of the projects seem to be doing well. there appears to be a good amount of interest in the firefox os phones, for example04:17
whitequarkI'm not sure if firefox os counts as "alternative"04:18
whitequarkwell, the phones, at least04:18
wpwrakthey're kinda halfway where one would want them to be :)04:18
whitequarkand, ew, javascript.04:19
wpwrakfinding a reliable source for n900 cases may be crucial04:22
wpwrakand estimates of how long until that source may dry up. they all eventually do. if someone still has the ability to make new n900 cases, that would be very beneficial.04:23
wpwrakform factor seems quite reasonable, also compared with today's phones04:30
wpwrakwell, especially with today's, if we consider that they're happily going towards phablets ... the choice of generation XXL ...04:31
rohhm.. i dont know about you, but i tend not to need a new phone before a new computer and the problems get similar.04:37
wpwrakyou buy them in matching pairs ?04:49
DocScrutinizer05I'd happily picked N810 formfactor and case, if a) they were available at all, and b) not so much metal in the case (makes RF a nightmare)04:55
DocScrutinizer05N900 cases are available in original black, gray, white, even gold. I think those Chinese are pretty good in prducing small series of plastic objects04:56
DocScrutinizer05what *might* get nasty are things like digitizer, flex circuit board (with frontcam and ALS and proximity), LCD, GSP et al antennae...04:58
DocScrutinizer05camera already is a nightmare04:58
wpwrakyeah, there are a lot of little critters in such a phone :)04:58
DocScrutinizer05I'm not planning for more than maybe 1000 maximum04:59
DocScrutinizer05even 1000 would already be a dream04:59
wpwrakif you reach 1000, you're also in a better position to plan a larger batch, be it with the same design or something new05:00
DocScrutinizer05cases are probably last thing to run out of stock05:00
DocScrutinizer05now pondering a crowdfunding for the prototypes05:01
DocScrutinizer05some venture capital spirit thing05:03
DocScrutinizer05pay 10bucks, get a voucher worth 15. IF we EVER finish the development05:03
wpwrakheh :)05:05
DocScrutinizer05you know, hw development. You always can run into a buzzbug or worse, even last minute. And when you find out about that SiErr late in development, you're screwed05:05
wpwrakthat's the crux with crowdfunding - it's difficult to use for prototype development05:05
wpwrakwell, especially kickstarter. others, e.g., indiegogo, are more flexible05:06
DocScrutinizer05luckily we have the "devel board" already05:06
DocScrutinizer05one "nice" problem: we need eMMC but seems we have the interface already eaten by WLAN05:07
DocScrutinizer05otoh in times of 64GB uSD maybe you can forget about eMMC05:08
DocScrutinizer05but then next issue kicks in: PoP MCP are only available with 1GB NAND and max 512MB RAM. Users want(!) 1GB RAM05:09
DocScrutinizer05my alternative proposal: 512MB true RAM plus fast RAMbased "storage" for swap05:10
DocScrutinizer05would think MMC controller might get abused for that05:10
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus pondered findin a 1GB RAM-only PoP, ditching the NAND completely05:12
DocScrutinizer05but then, we boot from... errr the only uSD that's available in device?. Not amused05:12
DocScrutinizer05friggin WLAN!05:13
wpwrakonly two uSD controllers in the CPU ? that sucks05:18
wpwrakmaybe bit-banging MMC would be acceptably fast05:19
wpwrakand yes, i'd boot from uSD. but i think you'd expect me to say that ;-)05:19
DocScrutinizer05I want an OS that's still there when I swap the uSD05:22
DocScrutinizer05otherwise I could rather use eMMC. Faster05:22
wpwraki mean two uSD: one "system" (normally stays in place) and one "user" (whatever use pattern the user likes)05:24
DocScrutinizer05on GTA02 uSD been basically useles to swap, since you had no use for huge amounts of data on that device. On N900 I could actually watch movies, and I might take hundreds of them with me on several uSD05:24
DocScrutinizer05btw I already did that: watch movies on TV, linked to N900 via AV05:25
DocScrutinizer05absolutely convenient mini VDR05:26
DocScrutinizer05well player05:26
wpwrakthe gta02 uSD is also pretty difficult to access05:28
rohwpwrak: not matching pairs.. but my notebook is from 2008...05:31
rohwpwrak: the phone will easily do another 5 years or so i hope.. and i dont want a n900-like crap.05:32
wpwrakroh: has the hockey puck format grown on you ;-)05:32
rohwpwrak: but seen from a 'i still want to own my hardware' point i would rather focus on a notebook than something useless and superflous like a phone.05:32
rohwpwrak: smartphones are waste of time.05:33
rohbad runtime, bad formfactor (bad for the eyes, too small for the fingers, slow usablity)05:33
wpwrakroh, always a reliable source for balanced, unbiased views :)05:33
rohif you really do business you dont hipster around like a kid on steroids. you LET people do phoning.05:34
rohyou LET people call your assistant.. etc. you for sure dont try to google while in a conference call..05:34
wpwrakperhaps top-notch CEOs like you don't. us mere mortals, though ...05:35
rohalso.. have you ever seen somebody do real work on a tablet or phone? not me. they all use a notebook or fatter computer. why? because for serious work one needs space. in pixels as in power. not half-baked 1ghz arm thingies which are barely good for p0rn05:35
rohwpwrak: ive not seen ANYBODY doing real work on a phone or tablet. they ALL have real computers to do that.05:36
rohdont let yourself be distracted by a magicians joke05:36
rohmaybe they use their smartphones a lot. but thats not where productivity comes from.05:37
rohmaybe they are a good add-on. but replacing real machines? no. not in sight05:37
wpwrakdepends on what you call "real work". for some things, a smartphone can be convenient. depends on the situation and the task.05:37
rohand as long as there is the danger of not getting proper ones anymore at all... i rather focus on what i need instead of 'candy'05:38
wpwraknaw, they're certainly no laptop replacements. that's the ubuntu edge nonsense :)05:38
rohconvenient is not practical.05:38
rohwpwrak: ever tried reading mail on a grown ups imap with a smartphone?05:38
rohwpwrak: not possible05:38
wpwrakconvenient = you don't have to send an sms to a friend asking to do something on their pc/laptop for you05:38
rohwpwrak: even the ubuntu edge will not replace. much too cheap hardware.05:39
rohwpwrak: maybe it would help removing all the euphemisms and marketing crap from the discussion ;)05:39
wpwraki've read mail on vt102 terminals. i think a smartphone can keep up with that :)05:39
larscI e.g. read new on my smartphone while e.g. waiting for the bus, I say that it increases my productivity, since the time would otherwise be lost sitting there idle05:39
larscread news05:39
rohlarsc: wrong. you only become an workoholic. not more productive.05:40
rohlarsc: your own brain fools you there05:40
wpwrakreality is just an illusion ;-)05:40
rohhappend to me too. more use of media != more productive.05:40
rohcurrently i only see a rise in idiots on the streets which get run over05:41
rohwhy? eyes on the phone, ears with headphones.... why are these stupids not in a cab when their time is as valuable to be used that extreme?05:42
wpwrakin any case, it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion if you agree with how people use their phones. unless there are a few hundred clones of you running around :)05:42
rohwpwrak: its not the point. i dont care what some people do. i care about not being able to shop decent hardware anymore because the hype does harm to the whole industry.05:43
wpwrakdid you see any get run over ? so far, i only see them meandering on the sidewalk as if drunk ...05:43
rohwpwrak: yes.05:43
wpwrakkewl :)05:43
rohwpwrak: ive seen people die due to stupid.05:43
rohnot worth it.05:43
wpwrakpoetic justice :)05:43
rohno. i really felt with the poor cabbie05:43
rohwho didnt have a chance to break05:44
rohwpwrak: i think it would help to do judge-dredd-justice with phones.05:44
wpwrakyeah, annoying paperwork, i'm sure05:44
rohget caught while driving -> destroy on spot.05:44
rohphone atleast and maybe impound the car for a month05:45
rohsame goes for walking blind stupids05:45
rohwpwrak: have you ever run somebody over?05:45
wpwraknaw, i seem to be a poor hunter05:46
rohi have. and its a shitty feeling, even when the cops tell you its not your fault05:47
rohshe luckily didnt die.. still a bad memory.05:47
wpwrakah, tried the rough pickup ? :)05:48
rohnope.. some girl just jumped in front of my bike at night. basically from the sidewalk onto the street. half a meter further there would have been the car lane05:49
wpwrakin the good old days, ladies would drop their handkerchief, for the gentleman to pick up and thus have an excuse for starting a conversation ...05:49
roha week before somebody was killed at the same spot... car lane.. cab driver (i wasnt there)05:50
wpwrak... but i guess jumping in front of bikes kinda works, too 05:50
rohbad idea. the next one i'll sue.05:52
DocScrutinizer05ayy. i wouldn't use my laptop wor the real work to yell an alrm to wake me up or remind me for a appointment05:56
DocScrutinizer05s/wor /for /05:59
cdety, qi-bot 05:59
DocScrutinizer05I also wouldn't use my laptop as mp3-player06:00
DocScrutinizer05and for sure I wouldn't use my laptop or fatter computer for taking pictures06:00
DocScrutinizer05though a midi-tower for sure would make for a nice inertial mass06:01
wpwrakespeically when used as mp3 player06:04
whitequarkbtw larsc, I recall you learning ML06:08
whitequarkdid you succeed?06:08
DocScrutinizer05using notebook for flashlight might actually work06:09
DocScrutinizer05for GPS and navigation, hmmm I doubt06:09
DocScrutinizer05but then you could argue navigation doesn't increase your productivity anyway. For sure it doesn't increase your creativity06:10
DocScrutinizer05so yeah, probably smartphones ruin our productivity06:11
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: apropos GPS: http://www.gnss-sdr.org/documentation/gnss-sdr-operation-realtek-rtl2832u-usb-dongle-dvb-t-receiver06:14
DocScrutinizer05awesome. Also the comparision of the number crunching grunt of a dedicated GPS chip compared to emulation on x8606:15
wpwrakneat :)06:15
DocScrutinizer05they need a quadcore @ 2.3GHz to get on par with a sirf or whatever06:16
DocScrutinizer05see what custom VLSI can do06:17
DocScrutinizer05well, i guess we knew that since first decent graphicscards came up06:17
DocScrutinizer05there's nothing as fast as an analog computer06:18
wpwrakwell, they probably use a very unoptimized data processing path06:19
DocScrutinizer05that too06:19
DocScrutinizer05I haven't looked into it in detail, maybe they even use gnuradio(companion?)06:19
Action: DocScrutinizer05 seems to recall to have seen correlator blocks in GRC06:20
DocScrutinizer05simple corr, autocorr, PN corr, corr. access code06:21
DocScrutinizer05apropos simple06:22
cdeDocScrutinizer05: nice link, thanks06:23
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2013/08/29/plasma-desktopRn3743.png 06:24
DocScrutinizer05simple fm receiver X-P06:24
DocScrutinizer05built by the guy who's using the rt2832 dongles for radio astronomy on that nn-meter dish06:25
whitequarksomehow application of these visual programming tools always results in a horrible mess06:27
rohDocScrutinizer05: yeah.. sdr isnt anything which is good for saving power ;)06:28
wpwrakwhich in turn will confirm their prejudices: if it already looks so bad with those "nice" tools, how horrible would it be as non-intuitive source code ...06:29
DocScrutinizer05indeed. Thus I ditched the idea to replace all radios in my new smartphone by two SDR06:29
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: :-D06:30
DocScrutinizer05well, I heard it's a stereo FM receiver that actually works06:30
DocScrutinizer05I didn't get around to properly start it with all LD_PRELOAD errr python_path= nonsense06:31
DocScrutinizer05btw for ALSA the opposite effect kicked in. Nobody groked the alsa config files to set up the processing stack, so they moved on to PukeAudio and finally to gst-pipes since PA couldn't do what they needed to get done06:36
DocScrutinizer05plus abominations like ped (policy enforcer daemon)06:36
rohDocScrutinizer05: whom are you talking about?06:37
rohand using audio interfaces for sdr is 'kiddieshit'06:37
DocScrutinizer05in first half of my rant: everybody distro maintainers06:37
DocScrutinizer05in second half: Nokia06:38
DocScrutinizer05suuure, I bet you watch your radio program06:38
DocScrutinizer05only kiddies use their ears for FM broadcast06:39
rohwhy use sdr for fm?06:40
DocScrutinizer05why not?06:40
rohwaste of power. quality is shit anyhow06:40
DocScrutinizer05or: because I can06:40
rohbecause you can isnt a reason anymore. its just a bad excuse ;)06:41
DocScrutinizer05mhm, and therefore we eliminate audio sink from gnuradio now?06:41
Action: whitequark grabs popcorn06:42
rohi really can see one when it comes to flexibility e.g. ... but using sdr to demod stuff you have hardware demods anyhow is just plain stupid. sorry.06:42
DocScrutinizer05sorry, I don't have hardware demod for FM-stereo06:42
rohDocScrutinizer05: sink no. source never made sense to me.06:42
Action: cde likes the name: *simple*_fm_rcv ;)06:43
DocScrutinizer05[2013-08-29 08:37:44] <roh> and using audio interfaces for sdr is 'kiddieshit'06:43
rohDocScrutinizer05: sure you have. most mobile phone chipsets have that anyhow.06:43
rohDocScrutinizer05: your n900 e.g. should have one.06:43
DocScrutinizer05mine doesn't, at least not in a way I'd consider using06:43
DocScrutinizer05the antenna plug is weird ;-P06:44
rohwell.. atleast you need to heat less in winter listening to radio with sdr06:44
DocScrutinizer05I can't find the T-connetor between phone, antenna, and amp line-in06:45
DocScrutinizer05also as you just elaborated smartphones reduce productivity06:46
DocScrutinizer05so I dom't dare to use it as FM radio06:46
rohDocScrutinizer05: nope. i just elaborated that they do no raise it. major differencre06:46
DocScrutinizer05see, with SDR at least my productivity of heat is decent high level06:47
rohdont get me wrong.. i like sdr for research a lot.06:47
DocScrutinizer05I like the idea of a universal tool06:47
rohbut using it for normal reception is a major energy waste.. small level but that sums up.06:47
DocScrutinizer05I never listen FM broadcast. sorry06:48
rohme neither.06:48
DocScrutinizer05I however listened to my homematic, at 866MHz06:48
DocScrutinizer05with SDR06:48
rohi'm more interrested in wideband signals.. thus audio in and out usually are of no use in sdr for me 06:48
DocScrutinizer05and a wideband scanner / spectrum analyzer is rather handy for making sure you got no little tx bugs in your wall or under your desk06:50
rohhehe... i bet that will get more difficult in the future06:50
DocScrutinizer05also see http://www.gnss-sdr.org/documentation/gnss-sdr-operation-realtek-rtl2832u-usb-dongle-dvb-t-receiver06:51
DocScrutinizer05the guys over at ##rtlsdr are awesome. real cracks06:52
rohnice. i wouldnt have thought the frontend is good enough for that06:54
rohimpressive.. even when the result is a bit.. well... bad for the amount of work. but still great from a concept pov06:54
rohi mean... from a scientific pov06:54
larscour new sdr platform http://wiki.analog.com/resources/eval/user-guides/ad-fmcomms2-ebz/introduction06:57
rohlooks expensive06:59
rohis it regular avail like an usrp or a develboard?07:00
larscis expensive ;)07:02
larscit is a FMC board, the kind you can plug into FPGA boards07:02
rohlarsc: ah. nice07:03
--- Fri Aug 30 201300:00

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