#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2013-07-30

hellekinhello! If you speak Spanish, especially if you're in Latin America, you might want to lurk at https://red.anillosur.net/g/hardware_libre_para_software_libre_free_hardware_for_free_software14:37
hellekinthe group was started after a proposal was made to politicians in Argentina to remove import taxes on electronics for free hardware+free software projects14:37
kristianpauloh,hi hellekin 14:40
kristianpauljust for floss hardware+software projects?14:40
larscmeanwhile in europe microsoft tries to outlaw free software because it does 'predatory pricing'14:55
hellekinkristianpaul: that's the proposal, now to see it moving up to the parliament is a matter of hmm... Luck?15:28
hellekinlarsc: predatory pricing of free software eh? :]15:28
larscyou know because it's free15:29
wpwrakfree is communism15:51
wpwrakhellekin: lovely picture. was that taken before or after the war ?15:52
hellekinwpwrak: I can't see the dust very well, the picture is too small :)16:36
wpwrakdid they already have dust back then ? :)16:39
whitequarktalking about freedoms16:56
whitequarkread this: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Flenta.ru%2Farticles%2F2013%2F07%2F30%2Fnobadwords%2F16:56
whitequarkit's like they hired entire The Onion staff to write new legislature while high on meth16:57
whitequarkand I'm not even exaggerating16:57
whitequark"The very Mizulina explained the audience that swear words - it is a way of interaction, based on the conflict, and at the heart of Russian society have always been love, kindness, tolerance and harmony. In the real world, she says, children shield of foul language, and just need to act on the web."16:57
whitequark"He said that the Russian language - it is a strategic factor of Russia's national security, because it forms the consciousness and subconsciousness of people. Consequently, the spread of obscene language must be treated as a national threat."16:58
wpwrakquick, arrest the foul language terrorists !17:00
whitequarkyes, this is exactly how I expect it to be17:01
wpwrakand confiscate the radios, for they are weapons of mass destruction !17:01
viricanyone here knows much about grounding?17:28
virica linux router, in the top of a mountain, with a wifi antenna, and a solar panel...17:29
viricwould you add ground?17:29
viricor, with a metal pole, would you simply attach the ethernet shield to it?17:31
whitequarkoh, wait, ethernet17:31
whitequark(I expected some kind of mesh.)17:32
whitequarkso you have shielded ethernet there?17:32
whitequarkSUTP or how it's called17:32
viricwell... imagine three small radio devices with linux, connected to a bigger router device.17:32
viricI *might* have it. I'm deciding.17:33
viricSome people choose not to use it, some do.... I think the best would be to use shielded ethernet.17:33
whitequarknot sure in this case. ethernet itself is differential and galvanically isolated from the router.17:33
whitequarkethernet pairs that is17:33
viricbut there can accumulate big amounts of static electricity17:34
viric(due to isolation)17:34
whitequarkask wpwrak :)17:34
viricwpwrak: ! :)17:34
viricwhitequark: I wasn't sure about the isolation in ethernet. then it even makes more sense to use shielded ethernet17:38
whitequarkwell, in the router, the shield of the socket will be connected to the internal router ground17:39
whitequarkI'm not sure if the ethernet plug somehow connects the shields17:39
whitequarknever really used SUTP17:39
viricso you think that in some cases SUTP can be *bad*?17:39
whitequarkI'd imagine if it did, that would lead to nasty ground loops17:39
whitequarkso it probably doesn't17:39
whitequarkbut better ask someone who knows for sure17:40
viricdoes russian have the same word for earth ground and circuit ground?17:49
viricnamely, 'ground'?17:49
wpwrakif you can have big potential differences, grounding the device sounds like a good idea to me. of course, that means that you then build the potential between the source of the difference and the device's ground vs. between device and ethernet.17:49
virichere we say, respectively, terra i massa.17:50
viricwpwrak: storms can cause big potentials on ungrounded devices, no?17:50
wpwrakbut maybe a real EE, like DocScrutinizer05 could shed some light on such questions :)17:50
Action: DocScrutinizer05 burps17:50
wpwrakin general, i'd say that grounding can't make things worse, but it may expose flaws more quickly17:51
DocScrutinizer05sorry, busy with PHP + SQL debugging17:51
viricpoor DocScrutinizer05 17:51
wpwrakviric: are we talking about lightning protection ? :)17:52
viricI don't mean to resist lightning right on the device17:52
viricI mean that an isolated part of the circuit (ground, shield), when there is a storm, can act as a big capacitor vs earth.17:52
viriclightning happens because there is a big tension between earth and clouds.17:53
viricA middle isolated device is likely to suffer from that electric field17:53
viricwell, that's my picture. It may be wrong enough. :)17:54
wpwrakif you get a lightning discharge into the device, you're probably happy that you made that ground connection. well, unless you used the piping as "ground", because that one can have a reasonably high Z path to earth, which means that the discharge electrifies your piping system ;-)17:56
wpwrakit works especially well if you have plastic pipes but metal faucets :)17:57
wpwrakbut i don't really know about general precautions17:57
viricwell, one thing is home, where you have a ready ground connection17:58
viricanother thing is a device alone in the top of a mountain17:58
viricdo you think tv antenna poles are grounded?17:58
wpwrakas i said, i think a bit of grounding can't hurt. but you have to make sure the devices involved are properly built. if they have high potentials at weird places and aren't (mis-)designed to survive that, then grounding can kill them.17:59
viricfor example, adsl routers have no kind of grounding17:59
viricusual home adsl routers17:59
wpwrakfor example, i had a wall wart that passed a bit too much current from the primary side through its capacitative coupling and a device that had no suitable overvoltage protection. grounding it killed it.18:00
wpwrakyou're not really expected to have strong fields in your home :)18:01
viricI know, but I wondered if I could put one of such boards in a box on a mountain18:02
wpwraki don't quite understand the rules for grounding RF antennas. some are some aren't. RF is magic :)18:02
wpwrakfor example, one end of the atben/atusb antenna connects directly to (circuit) ground18:03
viricI should know about that...18:11
viricbut my university studies didn't help me join theory and practice18:11
whitequarkwpwrak: (grounding) I'm pretty sure that if lightning strikes your wifi router, it (and everything connected to it) is dead either way18:14
whitequarkseveral feeble mm2 of grounding wires won't stand that, no?18:14
whitequarkviric: (russian word) yes, "earth" and "ground" are the same word.18:15
viricwell, lightning can break a device due to heat, sound wave, or electric field.18:16
viricIf properly grounded, you avoid the electric field part18:16
whitequarkall of the above :)18:16
whitequarkviric: are you sure?18:16
whitequarkbtw, talking about russian words18:17
whitequark"massa" is used too, but I only heard it in automotive context18:17
viricwell, that's what grounding is for, no? avoiding electric fields.18:17
viricwhitequark: ah ok.18:17
viricah you mean Felipe Massa18:17
viricMassa in catalan means, among others, 'mass' in English. I think it has the role of "inertia", in a circuit.18:19
viricThe unmovable, the reference, ...18:19
whitequarksure, russian "<0AA0"18:20
whitequarktransliterated as "massa", translated as "mass"18:20
larscin german we call electrical ground "mass" too18:20
whitequarkI think there's a certain word for "circuit ground"18:20
viricUnrelated, it also means "too much", and "mace". :)18:20
viricwell, maybe in "mace", it also has the sense of "big mass with a lot of inertia"18:21
whitequarkyeah, that's "ground" (meaning "earth ground") and "signal ground".18:21
viriclarsc: and earth ground?18:21
viriclike the planet?18:22
larscgrounded would be 'earthed' if translated literally18:22
larscbut ground can be both 'mass' or 'earth', but usually it's mass18:23
whitequarklinguistic evenings on #qi-hw :)18:23
virichere, if someone on a circuit mixes the words "earth" and "mass", it sounds quite ridiculous.18:24
viricmixing, in the sense of not using them right18:24
viricwell, electronics had its own evolution everywhere, so there go interesting words. :)18:24
viricspecially as most ideas come from allegories from other previously known phenomena.18:25
larscah, so mass doesn't have to be ground18:27
larscbut usually is18:27
viricFor example, in Spanish they use the word E;KAB for short ethernet cables.18:27
viricI don't know what can that be in English18:28
viricsmall whip.18:28
viriclarsc: usually mass is earth ground? I wouldn't say so.18:29
larscwhy not?18:30
viricin my region, also, the popular word for computer mouse isn't 'mouse', but 'rat'. :@KA0.   People from other regions find that funny.18:30
viriclarsc: there are three cables in your power sockets. Not two. :)18:31
viricif it was usual to join any of them, it would be troublesome.18:31
larscbut that's AC18:31
viricI don't remember any case where a DC circuit has GND connected to EARTH.18:32
whitequarkviric: (rat) in russia too18:32
whitequarkthough it's somewhat humorous18:32
larscthe german word for mobile phone is Handy, written and pronounced like the english handy18:36
virichere the italian 'telefonino' sounds fun18:40
whitequarklarsc: suppose I want to learn german. any advice? :)18:43
whitequark(for fun, and because it's one of the most widespread languages. but mainly for fun)18:44
biotwhitequark: zweitenhundenstoffenteufel!18:44
whitequarkbiot: that's like honey for my ears! :D18:44
biothow is that fun!18:44
larscwhitequark: no. never had to learn it as a second language ;)18:44
whitequarkbiot: I like how it sounds. A lot.18:45
larscit's not a real word though18:45
biotit's probably a very useful language to know for when you stub your toe18:45
whitequarklarsc: ha. my current best guess is to learn the basics, and then set up de.wikipedia by default instead of en.wikipedia18:45
biotsame with russian18:45
larscwhitequark: watch movies in german18:46
larscor read german novels18:47
whitequarklarsc: well, that's what I do with English (movies)18:47
whitequarkbut the good thing with English is, it's easily to motivate yourself to watch them, because translations are usually really, really horrible18:47
biotI always made my daughter watch movies in english when she was a toddler18:47
biotand when she was older, she only got subtitles on a special occasion18:48
biotas a result, her english is really great now, she really grew up with it18:48
whitequarkbiot: I'm mostly reading english stuff for about four years at this moment, worked really well too18:49
whitequarkyou don't have to be a toddler :)18:49
viricone thing that makes english more comfortable is that you know some english18:49
viric(watching movies, etc.)18:50
viricI mean it's harder to start something. :) I guess you already knew some english when you were conscious about deciding to learn it18:51
whitequarkyeah, I started it by reading manuals for Borland C++ Builder at... I think 8? 9? something around that18:51
whitequarkI've no idea how it is even possible to learn a language that way18:52
larscenglish was the on subject in school I almost failed18:52
larscthe one18:52
larscalways a 4 minus minus18:52
whitequarkand the "perfect" is... 1?18:53
larscif you get a 5 you have to repeat a year18:53
larscyes 1 is the best grade, 6 the worst18:53
whitequarkthere were anecdoes about grading in russia and germany18:53
whitequarkbecause in russia, 5 is the best and 2 is the worst18:54
larscI know, it's kind of the reverse18:54
whitequarkand 1 is something you'd have to try hard to achieve18:54
larscso when people from russia come here it's always a bit confusing18:54
larscto be honest I don't know why there is is 5 and 6 here, if you get either of them you've failed18:55
whitequarkand americans have ABCDEF to make things even more confusing18:56
larscwell A is 1, F is 618:56
whitequarkstill ambiguous :D18:58
whitequarkand I think they have percentage system in Japan. 0-100%18:58
whitequarkwhich probably makes the most sense18:58
larscbut also more complicated18:59
whitequarkis it?19:00
larscso many different numbers19:00
larscbut maybe it is also more fair19:00
larscthere is a fixed mapping between your grade and the percentage you get right on a test19:01
larsce.g. 1 = >= 90%19:01
larscso somebody with 90% percent gets a 1 and somebody with 89% a 219:02
larscconsidering that there are only 4 grades for which you pass this means a 2 is only worth 25% of a 119:03
larscso e.g. if somebody gets 90%,90%,90% he gets a much better grade then somebody who gets 89%,89%,100%19:05
whitequarkisn't it rounded?19:06
whitequarkoh, it isn't19:06
whitequarkI think I read something about american system where it is rounded19:06
whitequarkthough that's still unfair: it just shifts the bounds19:07
larscthe final grades are not rounded19:08
larscyou get a plain integer number19:08
larscso the first person would get a 1, the second a 219:08
larsceven though on average he scored higher19:09
larschow do you round in the U.S. though? Do you get a B.F?19:13
virichere 10 is best, 0 is worst19:18
viricno letters. :)19:18
viricoften with one decimal place even19:19
larscspeaking of point systems. If you do a traffic violation you here get points, once you have enough you get your drivers license taken away19:20
larscI've heard that in other countries it is the opposite. You start with a certain amount of points and then get them taken away for each violation19:21
larscand they say from a phychological point of few such a system is better, because you loose points instead of earning them19:22
larscpoint of view19:22
larscwell and psychological19:23
wpwrakthat isn't the opposite. the opposite would be that, once you've amassed enough violations, you get the permit ;-)19:33
wpwrak(i think that's how it works around here)19:33
Action: kristianpaul 'sdriver license have no expiration date19:34
whitequark"driver license" at qi-hw is *really* ambiguous :D19:34
kristianpaulwell :)19:35
larscdrivers licenses don't have an expiration date here either19:36
larscpeople have sill their old paper licenses from the 60ties19:36
wpwrakkristianpaul: if the streets are sufficiently dangerous, expiration is implicit :)19:36
larscwhitequark: the license is still valid you may not be able exercise your right to drive though19:37
larscwpwrak: 19:37
kristianpauland here you just pay for the violations, unless is something more serious guess vehicle get confiscate and you go jail19:38
wpwraklarsc: that reminds me of "in russia, everything is forbidden - even if it's allowed"19:38
kristianpaulpoints will be interesting to check the scores between provinces :p19:39
larsckristianpaul: you have to always pay a fine here too19:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: (penalty) in germany, they tie you behind your cars and drive up and down the street19:40
larscbut may get some points in addition19:40
kristianpaulbut here most people never pay xD19:40
wpwrakwow, qi-bot is really fast :)19:40
kristianpauleven when the disccount arrives at the end of the year and so on19:40
larsckristianpaul: discount? Pay 10 speeding tickets get one for free?19:41
kristianpaulwpwrak: car drivers are danger, i avoid then all day when get to the city19:41
kristianpaullarsc: percent disccount, 50% or even more19:42
viriclarsc: we have 10 points at start, in driving license. By not getting punished, they can 'grow' until 12. On punishment, you lose some points.19:42
larscviric: yea, that sounds like the better scheme19:44
viricthere is some black market of points19:44
viricI'm not sure how it works...19:45
larschere too19:45
larscyou just say you drove the car that day19:45
viricI think that when you get a fine, some people sell their points (claim they were driving) or so19:45
larsce.g. if you cross a red light or something19:45
larscthey usually take photos of the driver and the license plate though19:46
viricalso the driver? hm19:51
larscquality sucks though19:55
larscso if the person looks kind of like it they'll believe you19:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: new option -q for quiet capture (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d1b65cb23:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: add SPI block reception (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7fd904423:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: aggressive polling for wait_for_interrupt, if timeout_ms = -1 (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/07b1da223:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: option -q becomes "quick" and uses aggressive polling (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/873f80c23:17
wpwrakargh. wrong branch :-(23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c: remove queued_rx; buffer frames in the MCU instead (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b73d5fc23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c (next_buf): dedicated function for incrementing buffer indices (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/998ac7e23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/Makefile: improve size reporting (show segment sizes) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/070677323:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: new option -q for quiet capture (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d1b65cb23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: add SPI block reception (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7fd904423:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: aggressive polling for wait_for_interrupt, if timeout_ms = -1 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/07b1da223:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: option -q becomes "quick" and uses aggressive polling (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/873f80c23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'buffer-frames' (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/08f4ac923:38
wpwrakwell, may as well merge it then ..23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c (RX_BUFS): increase buffer size from 2 to 3 frames (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/bf067b323:40
wpwrakhmm, is anyone here familiar with GUI development on small embedded systems ? the kind that run under contiki or freertos.23:52
whitequarksigh, contiki23:53
whitequarkwhat are you interested in?23:53
wpwrakin the project i'm currently working on, they seem to be looking for someone who'd implement a gui. not entirely sure, though - the question wasn't very clearly phrased.23:56
whitequarkoh, so it's more a hiring question23:56
whitequarkno idea then.23:56
wpwrakthe platform is freertos with a touch of contiki. stm32f32f2 microcontroller. quite reasonable critters, but unfortunately too weak for linux.23:57
wpwrakwhat gui libraries would you use ?23:57
whitequarkhaven't seen anything reasonable to be honest. so I would probably reinvent something.23:57
wpwrakthe only one i know is mtk nee genode fx23:57
wpwrakheh ;-)23:58
wpwrakmaybe i should just tell them to use linux :)23:58
whitequarkit's a really small critter and everything I've seen so far was... let's say IC vendor quality23:58
wpwrak(not that i haven't said that a dozen times already :)23:58
whitequarkthat'll cost them, no?23:58
whitequarkmoney and power23:58
wpwrakmaybe 1-2 USD per device. and they don't seem to be overly concerned with power.23:59
whitequarkstm32f2 is somewhere around $5, less if in bulk, and needs no external components except a crystal23:59
wpwrakseems that you can make a pretty decent linux system with an i.MX233, some SPI flash and an SDRAM chip23:59
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