#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2013-06-10

Action: hellekin rebooting server bbs03:15
damo22Mali = Male06:52
damo22(Latin for ill, bad, wrong)06:54
wpwrakyeah, nomen est omen06:55
damo22its going to be a tough road ahead for free hardware to compete with the small SoCs that have everything (including hardware DRM)07:02
damo22unless we just use subsets of SoCs that have specs and ignore all the rest of its capabilities 07:05
damo22might even be cheaper to purchase and to run if you do that07:05
wpwrakyeah, the "ignore the junk" approach works reasonably well so far07:06
damo22not on a raspberry pi though since the firmware blob executes the gpu afaik07:07
wpwrakignore the rpi then, problem solved :)07:07
damo22what is a good device to run librewrt on?07:08
damo22one of the buffalos?07:09
wpwrakthe ben runs owrt quite nicely :)07:11
Action: roh thinks this 'hardware drm' is bullshit till proper specs08:05
rohthere were other soc before which had drm infrastructure... did it get used? no08:05
rohin the end they fail caring enough for their secret keys anyhow.. so why all the hassle?08:06
wpwrak"because they can"08:06
viric_what is that librewrt?08:06
rohwpwrak: haha... the user doesnt want to pay it. -> devices using too much drm fail in the market08:06
viric_ahh I've seen.08:07
viric_roh: like apple devices?08:07
rohviric_: they fail in the majority of markets.08:07
rohthey succeed where money isnt an issue.08:07
viric_which is the market of their interest.08:08
wpwrakroh: the trick is to put the DRM into a standard. then it's relatively costly to avoid it.08:08
rohresult is that there are _much_ more people using other stuff since apples product are simply too expensive. not because of fails08:08
rohwpwrak: doesnt help. the user learned that drm is equivalent to 'doesnt work'08:08
wpwrakroh: that's why nobody buys TVs with HDCP ?08:09
rohi dont even own a dvd player anymore. never owned a blueray.. same applies for the most people i know in my age group.08:09
rohwpwrak: doesnt matter. hdcp never was a burden since there are simple framegrabbers for it08:09
wpwrakHDCP was quite a headcache in the early days, for interoperability. yet it's still around08:10
rohwpwrak: it still IS a headache08:11
rohbut in the end only for vendors of screens.08:11
rohthe rest just buys cheap shit which works.08:11
rohand dvrs and such are being patched08:11
rohor one uses such hw: http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Colossus-Express-Internal-HD-PVR/dp/product-description/B004OVE2B408:11
wpwrakwhat a name ! ;-)08:12
rohso.. there are already 2 major vendors with capture cards around.. need to dig deeper? i dont think so08:12
rohah.. and then there are these hdmi-repeaters/splitters... guess what they do... decode hdcp and run N outputs uncrypted... wouldnt work anyhow otherwise08:13
rohso.. no.. hdcp isnt what i consider working drm.08:14
wpwrakwhat i mean to say is that HDCP is an obstacle even to "legal" use by customers. yet it succeeded. (well, was forced down everyone's throat)08:15
damo22just because they have so far failed to enforce drm doesnt mean they wont stop trying, and we cant just sit there and let them do it08:15
wpwrakthis illustrates the limits of "just say no"08:16
rohwpwrak: i wouldnt call that 'succeed'08:16
rohwpwrak: most times hdcp isnt even enabled.. due to 'needs to work'08:16
damo22they want to put DRM into operating systems08:16
wpwrakdon't DVD players insist on it ?08:16
rohwpwrak: the only reason people use hdmi instead of dvi is 'it transports audio as well' and that the plugs are nicer08:17
rohwpwrak: so what... every chinese tv has the keys08:17
rohwpwrak: and the master keys were leaked/exposed some years ago. its goners08:17
wpwrakwell yes. now it's of course broken.08:17
rohthe only reason bunnie made himself so much work was that he did NOT want to use these keys08:18
damo22if they put drm into operating system level, and hardware level, we wont be able to use drop in replacement free software to decode the content08:18
rohmy point is: by definition there will never be broadcast which has working drm. the flaw is in the concept08:18
rohdamo22: you already have all the hw you need08:18
rohdamo22: the tpm in your machine combined with a bit of sw could do such a thing... but since its not helping the user, nobody does use/need it.08:19
rohthe only thing advancing every time some drm system gets enforced is the speed of it being hacked/circumvented.08:19
damo22how come i cant buy a laptop that ships with windows 8 and put linux on it08:21
rohyou can08:21
damo22without doing something crazy to my brand new laptop08:21
rohto be fair.. i havent heard a single argument of a change to 10 years ago08:21
damo22some new laptops are so locked down you cant even boot a cd unless you remove the hard drive first08:23
damo22which might be difficult to do if its a ssd fused to the mobo08:23
rohdamo22: why should anybody buy something like that?08:23
damo22people do, theyre cheap08:24
rohso are computers that work08:24
rohdamo22: do you remember video2000?08:26
rohheh.. but you know vhs?08:26
rohyou know why?08:27
rohvideo2000 was cheaper and basically had a minor technical advantage... but it failed.08:27
rohit failed because the vendor doing it prohibited prerecorded porn to be sold on that medium... so thats the story why video2000 failed and vhs rocked.... vhs had porn08:28
rohnow think again about drm and companies like apple and their politics when it comes to content.... i am sittin that one out, leaning back and listen to the music play...08:28
damo22i dont own an ithing08:30
damo22but not because you cant buy porn on itunes08:30
damo22i dont own an ithing because i dont want to be restricted to buy my electronic media from one store08:30
damo22or cripple the development of creativity08:31
rohyou see...08:32
rohpeople use stuff as long as its convenient. if its not, they buy something different. so no reason to worry just because arm wants weird customers08:32
damo22yes but people are like sheep they buy anything that is convenient and that is a problem if one company gives them everything they want, at any price to their freedoms08:33
damo22especially if the competition is crippled by that company due to patents08:34
rohheh... well.. i dont see that08:34
damo22competition is healthy in a market08:35
damo22it promotes innovation08:35
damo22but if software companies collect patents like trading cards, instead of developing good software, innovation is crippled08:36
damo22i dont want to harp on about it, but my point is, if arm becomes in the habit of developing hardware that supports drm by specification, it makes it easier for large companies to standardise the idea that sharing is bad and people will have less choices to install free software onto new hardware08:43
rohdamo22: thats what i do not believe yet.08:47
rohmaybe the hw SUPPORTS drm. but thats something you pc does for 10 years now.08:47
rohits still not locked to anything.. and will not be. why? because the hw vendors want to sell.08:48
damo22it took microsoft 10 years but they removed the start button and now the hardware only boots windows08:48
lekernelroh, how much hardware have you been selling lately?08:50
rohlekernel: enough ;) my customers want stuff that works, all drm free08:51
damo22there should not be an option in the bios to lock it down to one OS that is out of the users control.. there is no benefit to the user08:54
damo22just because it is convenient to boot up in 2 seconds, doesnt help the user if he/she decides the system is a piece of crap08:57
larscworks for 90% of the users though08:59
virichave you seen this ? http://www.fairphone.com/12:03
viricany opinion?12:09
viricas for drivers, it may be as any other phone, no?12:09
larscyea, I don't think the focus is on free software here12:10
viricneither free hw12:11
viricbut they claim "Open, flexible design"12:12
viric"Root access: Install your preferred operating system and take control of your data"12:12
viric"In discussions with developer communities to make Fairphone optimized for other open-source platforms"12:12
viric"Our next steps include implementing additional open design elements. Were joining forces with open developer platforms like Ubuntu and FireFox to offer users the choice of OS upon purchase of the phone."12:12
damo22looks like another android clone13:33
viricbut the different approach is interesting13:41
--- Tue Jun 11 201300:00

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