#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2013-02-06

danlench1hi all, i need to talk to someone about hardware development for an FOSS project03:31
danlench1we will be launching a kickstarter project soon. the software is ready but i would like to offer a hardware solution as well03:31
danlench1i need 1 or 2  SATA, 4 or 5 ethernet, 2 usb, and a way to provide 802.11* that can be upgraded03:35
danlench1per unit cost on 1k 5k 10k 50k intervals03:36
danlench1my emain is daniel@nofolder.com03:37
danlench1^email03:37
wpwrakhmm, i don't think anyone here is ready to do such things03:39
wpwrak(here) on this channel03:39
danlench1wpwrak: any suggestions03:40
danlench1are you involved with qi03:40
wpwrakthe hardware requirements are a bit tricky. maybe there's something out there that already exists. else, you'd need a custom design. or try to adjust the specs.03:41
wpwrakwell yes, i'm involved with qi-hw. but i'm not sure what you think that means :)03:41
danlench1well i am looking for purpose built board03:41
danlench1well, i'm involved with alot of things as well ;)03:42
danlench1i'm preparing a kickstarter project03:42
danlench1think open source cross platform time capsule like device with dropbox like capabilities03:43
danlench1the software is done, i would like to provide a hardware option03:43
danlench1so i'm looking for manufacturers03:44
wpwrakmaybe post to the qi-hw list. while i haven't seen any discussion about people actually picking up manufacturing tasks (except sharism and tuxbrain, but tuxbrain is dead and sharism doesn't do much anymore), there may be lurkers03:44
danlench1ok i will03:45
danlench1would you know who does the pcb for qi?03:45
danlench1well pcb + components03:45
danlench1thats what i'm really hunting for03:46
wpwrakyou mean the pcb fab ? or the smt fab ?03:46
wpwrakin the milkymist project, i think pcbs were made and smt'ed in taiwan03:46
wpwraki think sharism sourced the components directly and then brought them to the smt fab03:47
danlench1right, probably, but who03:47
danlench1i mean i could do the smt in my garage if i had enough ovens03:47
wpwrakwolfspraul would know03:47
danlench1lol03:47
wpwrakgood luck with the yield :)03:47
danlench1right!! late nights03:48
wpwrakand i think anything > 100 units would get extremely boring03:48
danlench1no, i need to price 10k at least03:48
wpwrakyou're in the US ?03:49
danlench1all thoes pick and place makerbots03:49
danlench1yeah03:49
danlench1u03:49
wpwrakyou may also want to try to get domestic quotes for a first estimate03:49
wpwrakat least for the pcb, that's easy03:50
danlench1it's on the list ;)03:50
danlench1i appreciate your time, i would love to throw this to an open source hw org03:50
wpwrakthen you can check your components on digi-key, subtract 10% for volume and maybe 10-20% for asia and you'd have a rough idea03:50
danlench1yep, the case is the other thing ;)03:51
wpwrakunfortunately, in the qi-hw universe we're not quite set up for contract manufacturing. at least not anymore. would have been a possibility maybe a year ago or two.03:52
wpwrakah yes, cases are fun :)03:52
danlench1ugg03:53
danlench1i didnt have a developer then :/03:53
wpwrakmilkymist had a fairly nice solution. all 2D cuts03:53
danlench1right, KISS03:53
wpwrak(solution) for its case03:53
wpwrakaye :)03:54
danlench1wolfspraul: do you by anychance know who does the pcb and smt for qi? i'm looing for a manurfacturer for my project and would love a reccomendation03:55
danlench1hows that03:55
wolfspraulthanks for asking but you don't want to hear my recommendation03:56
wolfspraul:-)03:56
danlench1lol, at least  i put my work machine on the line first03:56
danlench1uh oh03:56
danlench1ok, maybe a warning then. i'm ok with that also ;)03:56
wpwraksounds as if you need a hw designer, too03:57
danlench1i have a few on the list but always appreciate another03:57
danlench1arm or atom, needs to run minimal fedora or centos03:58
danlench1these will all be for the home or "small" users03:59
danlench1the enterprise can use their own HW03:59
danlench1still free of charge03:59
wpwrakin your place, i'd first try to find a board/device that already does more or less what you need. it's a lot easier to source an existing device than making a new one.03:59
danlench1the mobile clients will be $5 to fund development03:59
danlench1well...03:59
wpwrakthe large number of ethers combined with SATA could be a problem. does this thing really have to be a router/switch ?04:00
danlench1where is that link...04:02
danlench1this will work: http://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Leaked-ASUS-Eee-D200-Could-be-a-Home-Media-Server-3.jpg/04:02
danlench1the router/switch integration will simplify the dropbox like capabilities04:03
danlench1for the home user04:03
danlench1the d200 s basically a heavy duty prototype04:03
wpwrakthat box doesn't look so bad04:04
danlench1released in 2009 for around 700us04:04
wpwrakmay even have room for your SATA disks04:04
danlench1i hve a few now from amazon at 150us04:04
danlench1no one at asus has ever heard of it04:04
wpwrak;-)04:04
danlench110 techs later and none of them04:05
danlench1a quiet failure04:05
danlench1but what a cool idea04:05
wpwrakpeople who were working on that in 2009 probably have retired long since :)04:05
wpwrakit seems a bit bulky04:05
danlench1integrated UPS also, its a lipo battery similar to a laptops04:05
danlench1about 4in wide 12 tall04:06
wpwraki'm beginning to see where the price comes from :)04:06
danlench1dvdrw, 2 3.5hdd, 2 fans, touchscreen all that other stuff04:07
wpwrakbatteries aren't such a good idea. they die within a few years. and then people will come to you asking for new ones.04:07
danlench1its tow boards with a pcb bridging them04:07
wpwrakurgh04:07
danlench1its a beotch to get apart also ;)04:07
danlench1yeah, its too much04:08
wpwrakgood old crowbar not working ? :)04:08
danlench1but good for dev,04:08
danlench1so any HW man suggestions?04:09
danlench1:D04:09
wpwrakbtw, if you have two ether ports, you could already integrate it into an existing home network without using extra ports04:10
wpwrakand two ether + SATA may be findable04:10
danlench1yes, it is04:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: we still haven't heard your comment ;-)04:10
wolfspraulwhich you can imagine, it's easy: don't do hardware04:12
wolfspraulwork for a manufacturer for a while if you really want to04:12
wolfspraulfrom what you write, there's just too much missing/imagined04:12
wolfspraulof course that is the very kind of feedback the successful guys blissfully ignore, but that power is entirely up to you04:13
wolfspraulI am still saying: save yourself and the world that bucket of wasted energy :-)04:13
danlench1there is a jetway board that is looking promising 04:13
danlench1http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/spec/ADE4INLANG.pdf04:13
danlench1http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/NF9B.html04:14
wpwrakthat;s just the ether04:14
wpwrakah, and that would be a 2x ether solution04:15
wpwrakand with plenty of SATA interfaces04:15
danlench1its too much04:16
danlench1wolfspraul: i appreciate your words04:17
wpwrakand i concur with wolfgang: since you're aiming for a relatively high-performance design, which also has a fair number of peripherals, you're likely to face a very long and costly development process04:17
wpwrakso a much better approach would be to find something you can just OEM04:18
danlench1well i plan to run the kickstarter in 2 projects, one for the software only one for hardware only04:18
danlench1oem would be great04:18
danlench1been looking for a month04:18
danlench1new stuff every day04:18
danlench1time for me to retire for the nite04:19
wpwrakmaybe have some vacations in taipei and shanghai (or shenzen ?), and visit the local markets :)04:19
danlench1thanks so much for your input04:19
wpwraknp. good luck !04:19
danlench1:D04:19
danlench1i'll be back ;)04:19
wpwraksigh. why doesn't just once someone pop up who wants to make hardware who a) already has the bag of money necessary and b) wants to make, say, a new nanonote ? it would be such a pleasure to help with such a thing ...04:21
whitequarkwpwrak: I wonder, how much money would be required for a new NN?07:44
whitequarklower bound :D07:44
whitequarkthe upper one is obviously +07:44
wpwrakwhitequark: hmm, production-ready design in the order of 100-150 kUSD09:55
wpwrakperhaps more 150 than 100, considering that the case may be a bit of work09:57
whitequarkhm10:06
whitequarkwhere did you get the money for first Ben, then?10:07
wpwrakas far as i know, that came from wolfgang's savings10:07
wpwrakalso, the first ben wasn't an original design. it was licensed from a company that sold it as a dictionary10:08
whitequarkI see10:10
paul_boddieHaving read the logs, I wonder if danlench1 should be talking to the arm-netbook people. Although I'm not sure whether 4 or 5 Ethernet ports is on their roadmap.14:30
paul_boddieMaybe a router/switch manufacturer, then.14:30
whitequarkI'm fairly sure that a dumb switch chip is trivial to obtain14:31
whitequarkand is not very demanding14:31
wpwraknot sure if many of them are interested in making custom designs14:31
paul_boddieIt sounds like a super-sized FreedomBox. :-)14:31
wpwrakthe problem is that the whole system is fairly high-end. you need a very well-equipped shop to make such a thing work.14:32
paul_boddieBy the way, wpwrak, looking at the documentation for the Arduino shield I was talking about, it appears that feeding 5V to the shield's VIN pin is necessary. The circuit then ensures that the controller gets 3.3V. And there was I thinking I could skip over those pages in the datasheet. :-)14:33
wpwrakthere's your problem :)14:34
wpwrakcould you feed the 3.3 V directly into the 3.3 V rail, ignoring the 5 V side ?14:34
paul_boddieNo, that didn't seem to work.14:34
wpwrak:(14:36
paul_boddieUSB would need 5V anyway, as I understand it, so some external power source is probably required. I was using USB as that power source (through the Arduino), but that's cheating. :-)14:38
wpwrakwell yes, external power is always a solution ...14:39
wpwrakjust make sure you don't connect the ben to any 5 V net. it may resent that.14:39
paul_boddieIndeed.14:42
paul_boddieHere, I assume that the shield's designer followed the advice on those other datasheet pages I wasn't interested in reading. ;-)14:43
wpwrakheh :)14:45
wpwrakisn't arduino switching to 3.3 V, too, for their next generation ? i thought i read something like that. or was that some arduino-like board ?14:46
wpwrak5 V is so 1980es ...14:46
C-Keenthere are several 3.3V variants14:46
C-Keenarduino pro or something for example14:47
wpwrakah yes. has a 3 V and a 5 V variant.15:04
paul_boddieArduino Due is 3.3V (see the warning on http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue), as are some of the older models.15:10
wpwrakaah, DUE is that next generation thing i meant ! yes, even has a decent core15:11
C-Keenis the DUE the one with the arm core?15:13
wpwrakyeah, AT91SAM3X8E15:13
wpwrak(Cortex-M3)15:13
C-Keennice15:13
paul_boddieCompetition is getting pretty stiff in the low-end ARM space, though: http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp (for example)15:17
wpwrakit's not exactly hard anymore to make a little ARM board :) i guess the brand name may help arduino, though15:17
C-Keenplus their grown ready to use sensor gadgets15:21
danlenchpaul_boddie: i am on the arm-network channel as well16:05
danlenchwpwrak: i'm impressed with the nanonote for sure, just my phone and laptop and tablet and... 16:06
danlenchi appreciate everyones comments totally16:07
wpwrakdanlench: you have a nanonote ?16:13
danlenchno i do not, but i may after our conversations ;)16:21
wpwrakwhee ! :)16:22
danlenchwhere is the order form16:22
danlenchor do you want to sell me yours16:22
wpwrakfor the US, right from the source should be best: https://sharism.cc/16:23
wpwraknaw, i keep mine :)16:23
danlenchbut if its autographed...16:24
paul_boddieI got mine from Pulster but that's because it was in the EU and thus less complicated.16:25
wpwrakthat would be a large detour ;-)16:25
danlenchdoes it have wifi16:25
wpwrak(autographing)16:25
wpwraknope, no wireless. there's a IEEE 802.15.4 module you can get separately, though.16:25
paul_boddieNo, there are various strategies for using WiFi with it, but it isn't built in.16:26
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/16:26
danlenchi have a meeting in 30 min that i have to prepare for, i'll be back ;)16:26
wpwrakand yes, there's also a hard to find uSD wifi module. not sure if there are any other portable wifi solutions for the ben.16:26
paul_boddieBy the way, wpwrak, on that microSD Sniffer product page there was someone wanting to use that board to break out to a normal SD card socket which they then intended to use with an Eye-Fi card.16:27
wpwrakhmm, at some point those appendages will become a mechanical problem ...16:29
paul_boddieI'm not advocating EyeFi usage - I'm not sure how easy it is to make it a general WiFi solution or that it costs much less than that Spectec card once you add on the price of all the bits needed to connect it - but I wonder whether anyone looked into using one as a quick hack before now.16:35
whitequarkthere isn't even a linux driver for eyefi16:47
lekernelwolfspraul, you may find this interesting: http://www.altera.com/literature/wp/wp-01139-timing-model.pdf17:07
crunchhey20:39
kristianpaulhi21:50
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