#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2013-01-09

kristianpaulwpwrak: he i delete my forecast app because of that ;)03:04
kristianpaulbut i was in a motorcycle in the middle of a road 50km away from home..03:09
kristianpaulon the*03:10
wpwrakah, must be nice to come home, looking like a drowned rat :)04:05
wpwrakwell, the rain here was just long enough to make me collect all the tools and go inside. after half a hour, things were dry enough to finish. now the lamps are curing (sealed them with silicone - one of them had given me no end of trouble with rainwater crawling in and getting into the apartment's electrical system)04:47
wpwrakthe rain basically has to fall upward to reach that one. that's why it took me a long time to even suspect it. surprisingly, it often enough managed to do just that05:28
rohdo you have gpf stuff?05:52
roh'nen fi'05:52
wpwrakah yes, i do. and yes, that's the one that tripped.05:53
wpwraki suspected a very different area (well, some 3-4 m away), where we had had a major leak before05:54
rohheh. lucily we got more than a dozend seperate ones here05:55
roheven untypical for germany, but they had sunbanks in there originally05:55
rohvery nice for us.. we actually tripped some from time to time05:56
wpwrakthere, the chimney of one of the building's internal air channels had ruptured at the base. plus, the drain of the (flat) roof there it came out was clogged. so once, in a heavy rain, the water rose and rose, until it entered that air channel, and happily made its way from there into pretty much everything else.05:56
wpwrakone of the more impressive sights was to see the water come out of some walls, then head for the staircase and cascade down on the 13 floors below :) interestingly, on the other side of the wall, there was no visible damage05:58
rohsometimes i think one really should build his own house.. just to make sure no obviously stupid failipures in planning happen06:00
rohor atleast one knows who is the perp then ;)06:00
wpwrakyeah, the latter may be where the danger lurks :) "oh, that's fine. it's dangerous but i'll pay attention."06:03
kyakif someone could give me an insight about what's wrong with FSF, it would be interesting for me to know09:27
kyaki'm not exactly in the loop here, but i always thought that they were kinda the leading force of FOSS movement09:28
kyakor are you bashing them in the same way i bash openwrt, but deep inside you love it? :)09:29
lindi-kyak: for one it's very unclear to me who actually makes decisions there09:56
kyakdoes it mean FSF are not open source enough themselves? :)09:58
lindi-kyak: I think the term here would be transparent09:58
kyaksure.. from what whitequark said, it was RMS's decision to make GCC non modular. Is he a decision maker?09:59
larscBtw. the GnuTLS recently left the GNU project http://lwn.net/Articles/529522/10:07
larscand RMS was all "you can't to that since you assigned your copyright to the FSF"10:09
Fallenougnu sed maintainer left GNU as well10:14
larscyes, he did this in part because of the gnutls dispute10:16
whitequarkthis reminds me of how Linus has omitted the "[GPL2] or any later version" clause in Linux10:16
whitequarkturns out it was a wise decision10:16
Fallenoufor sure10:17
kyakhm, interesting10:18
kyakthen there is noone behind the open source community, i think it's bad10:22
lindi-kyak: huh?10:23
whitequarkthere is no such thing as an "open source community"10:23
whitequarkor rather "the open source community"10:23
kyakyeah, that's what i wanted to say10:37
whitequarkkyak: huh? I don't get why is this bad. or how this could be different, in fact.10:58
whitequark"open source community" as a term is something like "humanity". not referring to a single entity under circumstances I could imagine.10:58
wpwrakkyak: we all are. that's strength.10:59
wpwrakwhitequark: the other model would be: one community, one fuehrer, ... ;-)10:59
whitequarkwpwrak: exactly10:59
whitequarkBDFLs work for *parts* of OSS communities. preferably very small parts.10:59
wpwrakwell, it sort of worked for apple ;-)10:59
whitequarkwpwrak: not long-term11:00
kyakwpwrak: how is that a strength? What can we do? Go sign an online petition?11:10
kyakthe community is sparse and uncontrolled, that's efeectively means it doesn't exist11:11
kyakthere is noone behind our backs11:11
kyakthat is, if FSF is what you described (non-transparent and loosing members)11:13
lindi-kyak: uncontrolled? you mean unorganized?11:14
lindi-kyak: what's your native language btw?11:15
lindi-kyak: but there is FSFE too11:15
kyaklindi-: (unorganized) sorry for that. It's Russian.11:15
kyaknever heard of FSFE11:16
wpwrakkyak: i see that you don't believe in self-organizaion. good that we didn't have to rely on evolution to get us out of the primordial dirt. that would never have worked ;-)11:16
kyakwpwrak: i see that you rely on self-organization, let's mee where it brings in a nearest future :)11:17
kyakhm, 'm' is not even close to 's' on keyboard11:17
lindi-kyak: fsfe.org -- I'm a member of the Finnish team there11:17
kyaklindi-: what do you do there as a member?11:18
lindi-kyak: biggest project last year was http://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120619-01.en.html11:18
kyaki see the same "secure boot" story on main page11:18
lindi-kyak: this year we were planning free your android workshops11:19
wpwrakwhitequark: (GPL v2+) don't see the connection. the risk is basically that GPL n (n > current) might allow things you'd rather want forbidden. GPL < n already gives you a perpetual license to use the sw under the present term, so it's not possible to take anything away.11:19
kyaklindi-: (procurrement violations) interesting, but is it really open-source related?11:20
lindi-kyak: definitely11:20
kyakmeans you are proposing open source (and free) replacementS?11:20
lindi-kyak: if the public organizations only buy "Oracle" or "Microsoft" products then it is hard to compete11:20
lindi-kyak: no, we are making sure that FLOSS solutions can compete on equal grounds11:21
wpwrakkyak: it's lobbying the surroundings of free software11:21
kyaki see.. but it's really hard. If they want Oracle, they will find reasons why11:23
lindi-kyak: but the Finnish law will not allow them to do that11:23
kyaktheir admins are good at Oracle11:23
lindi-kyak: it's complicated but if they are dependent on Oracle then they need to publish a document where they explain why they are stuck to this one vendor11:24
lindi-kyak: as I understand it the law is pretty clear on this for public organizations11:24
wpwrakkyak: it's not necessarily about forcing them not to make bad choices, but about encouraging them to make good ones. not all public servants are moles of big capital and organized crime ;-)11:25
kyakwpwrak: i don't believe that after you said them that mysql is a better choice, they would say "really? thanks, we never heard of that"11:26
kyakand then would thank you for helping them make a better choice11:27
lindi-kyak: but you need to understand that procurement does not quite work like that11:27
lindi-kyak: they publish the specifications and they pretty much need to take the cheapest offer11:27
kyakyeah, that's right11:27
kyakso who will offer on behalf of some open source project?11:28
kyakthey don't even have an accounting :)11:28
lindi-kyak: there are many companies that sell solutions based on open source components11:29
wpwrakkyak: there are lots of companies that sell open source. ever heard of, say, red hat ? :)11:29
wpwraklindi-: heh, nearly identical :)11:29
kyakred hat is another monopolist11:29
wpwrakyawn :)11:29
larschere in munich the public administration switched to a Linux based infrastructure some time ago, not only servers but also desktops11:29
lindi-at least our university bought midgard CMS and dovecot from private companies11:30
larscthey claim that they saved money, but their calculations are a bit fisht11:30
lindi-larsc: http://fsfe.org/fi/projects/libreoffice/Web%20version%20with%20notes%20-%20Dirty%20tactics%20against%20LibreOffice%20in%20public%20administration,%20and%20how%20to%20overcome%20them.pdf11:31
lindi-larsc: we haven't been able to access the calculations yet11:31
kyakcool.. some companies work their ass off making software, and others just package open source software with minimal resources11:31
lindi-larsc: I have a Gardner account but it does not have enough privileges to see that Gardner publication11:31
kyaki say, that the second company is a leech11:31
lindi-Gartner even11:31
lindi-kyak: what second company?11:32
lindi-kyak: dovecot?11:32
kyaklindi-: the one that just packages open source software and sells it. As opposed to the company that actually spends money to develop software (and it doesn't matter at this point if it open or closed source)11:33
lindi-kyak: well the dovecot company developed dovecot11:34
lindi-kyak: http://www.dovecot.fi/11:34
lindi-" Our game is email storage. We are pretty good at it."11:34
kyakthere are many open source projects with no companies behind them11:36
lindi-kyak: so? anyone can start a company to sell solutions based on those11:36
kyakor even, there are few open source projects with companies behind them11:36
kyaklindi-: that anyone would be a leech11:36
lindi-kyak: why?11:36
kyakbecause they are not investing their money11:37
lindi-kyak: why would they not invest money?11:37
kyakor, as much money as company that actually develops software11:37
lindi-if their entire business depends on that piece of software they would be very unwise to not invest money11:37
kyakbecause i can package shit for free11:37
lindi-kyak: I think you need to name some specific company, it is difficult to speculate11:37
larscredhat ;)11:38
kyakredhat probably develops something...11:38
larscpackages all the stuff and then sells expensive support contracts for it11:38
lindi-redhat paid a lot of people to work for free java and now they are paying people to develop systemtap11:38
larscI was joking11:38
kyaklindi-: i can't name anything specific.. maybe, who is behind postgresql?11:39
kyakor another example, octave11:39
lindi-kyak: redhat and some postgresql experts inc.11:39
kyakhow it can enter a procurement contest?11:39
lindi-kyak: you just form a company and fill out some forms11:40
lindi-kyak: and hire a lawyer11:40
kyakexactly.. so easy11:40
kyakthat's why it's leeching11:40
lindi-kyak: I don't understand you11:40
rohhm. fsck. its january and my accounting sw hates me.11:40
kyakgetting money for doing nothing.. using other people's labour11:41
whitequarklindi-: btw, redhat develops a proper free AA64 JIT for OpenJDK right now11:41
lindi-kyak: doing nothing?11:41
whitequark(oracle has proprietary AA32 and AA64 JITs)11:41
larsckyak: if anybody can do this you'd expect very hard competition which drives the price down11:41
lindi-kyak: surely if you offer a solution based on postgresql you are going to have to handle a lot of support and integration issues11:41
larscdown to the point were you not pay for the software, but rather for the service11:41
lindi-kyak: I don't think anybody has managed to do that with octave. sage might have a chance11:42
lindi-our university pays to non-free things like matlab, mathematica, simulink11:42
kyaklarsc: nobody does that because open source solutions usually are not quite comptetive. Also, usually the contest mentions that support is required. So it suddenly becomes not so attractive to package and sell open source software11:42
lindi-I'd certainly welcome free alternatives11:42
lindi-kyak: well the procurement notice could have almost any terms but usually it has some sort of a 5-year support contract11:43
kyaklindi-: there is another thing. If there is always a company behind any competitor in a contest (even open source), why are you doing their jobs?11:44
kyakit's their job to persuade customers, do marketing etc11:45
kyakor, i forgot.. they don't want to spend money?11:45
lindi-kyak: well we are much more neutral body since we are not tied to some specific company11:45
kyakyou are tied to open source companies, aren't you?11:45
lindi-kyak: yes but not some specific company11:46
kyaklindi-: say, if there is a cheaper close-source solution and a more expensive open-source solution, and am open-source solution wa chosen. Will you fight for the rights of closed-source company?11:47
lindi-but now time for dinner11:47
kyakbon appetit!11:48
kyakbtw, such occasions are very much possible with redhat, i suppose11:48
kyaki think there are groups here in Russia doing the same. Mostly individuals, who keep track of official procurement site and make noise if they find something. But this is not really related to open source, since it can happen to everyone. That's why i asked initialy why it was open source related11:53
wpwrakkyak: you need to decide whether it's money for nothing or prohibitively hard work. right now you're saying it's both ;-)13:06
kyakwpwrak: if you package and sell it, it's money for nothing. But not anybody can do this, because it takes responsibility to support other people's code after you sold it. But it still costs less than adding the development costs to this13:18
kyakthat's why i said it's not so attractive13:19
kyak..as it seems.13:23
kyakbut i don't have to be a PhD in math to be able to calculate that developing+packaging+selling+supporting is bigger than packaging+selling+supporting13:24
lindi-kyak: I still fail to understand your point here :/13:24
kyakmy point is that everything needs to be protected during procurement. Not just open source13:29
kyakin fact, open source has nothing do with it at all.13:29
kyakhave to go now13:32
wpwrakkyak: the closed source companies can easily benefit from this as well - by opening their stuff ;-)13:54
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: for your next xmas: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Star-Wars-aus-Deutschland-Hochenergielaser-von-Rheinmetall-1779913.html13:57
lindi-kyak: yeah, we are just ensuring that the law is followed14:08
lindi-kyak: because at the moment it is violated in some cases and FLOSS solutions can not attend14:08
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: nice :-D14:09
rohclassic 'rule by superior firepower' madness...14:11
rohwell.. somehow it was time to find some ... anti-drone weapon ;)14:11
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCBwLJjzDJQ14:12
wpwrakroh: see, it works :)14:12
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: nasty H^3F fumes though ;-P14:13
wpwrak"IDF surplus store" ;-)14:14
DocScrutinizer05yeah X-P14:15
DocScrutinizer05watch the exhaust fumes visible in infrared view of whole truck14:15
DocScrutinizer05tritiumflouride :-o14:16
wpwrakyeah :)14:16
wpwrak"ready to take the next step" ... MIRVs ?14:17
DocScrutinizer05my neighbours don't like what the exhaust fumes do to their trees14:19
DocScrutinizer05and the tritium is a bit expensive 14:19
wpwrakwell, it should be easy enough to take out that critter - just fire a projectile without explosive aboard. all the laser will accomplish is make it come in a little hotter.14:21
DocScrutinizer05I wonder which power this thing has, probably in the MW range14:22
whitequarkinstallation disk16:40
wpwrakwhitequark: what kind of device is that ?16:47
wpwrakor is it a fake ? i don't get it16:48
whitequarkwpwrak: Windows 8 phone16:49
wpwrakoh, lovely :)16:49
larscwell I guess you can attach a usb diskdrive16:49
kyakor usb floppy drive16:50
kristianpaulhaha looks fake16:50
kristianpauli mean come on..16:51
wpwrakthe connector at the top and the exposed screws don't look very real16:53
wpwrakand if it's a prototype, well, i've seen worse mishaps :)16:53
viricdamn spaniards; the royal academy of the language is changing the definitions of "nation" and "referendum", ahead of the coming referendum for the independence of Catalonia.17:12
viric(damn *ruling* spaniards)17:13
wpwrakhacking the language ? that's sneaky ;-)17:13
viricthey did that already...17:13
viricabout 'nation', when Catalonia aproved a new constitution17:14
viricwhere it was a key word.17:14
viricon 2010.17:14
wpwrak"estar en favor": to be undecided, reluctant.17:14
viricIt's easier to change the meaning of words than the law texts.17:15
Action: kristianpaul tought was "estar a favor"17:16
viricdoes the royal academy of the spanish language still have a role in the spanish america?17:17
kristianpaulehh there are many spanish derivatives17:18
wpwrakviric: of course. and even more so when trolling ;-)17:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: this says we're both right: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=252366417:20
viricbacked by forum posts.17:21
kristianpauloh spanish ;)17:26
whitequarkviric: are you serious?17:31
whitequarkthis is totallyinsane17:32
viricand the link below on related information17:34
viricrussians always talk about insanity19:27
whitequarkviric: maybe. what's about it?22:24
--- Thu Jan 10 201300:00

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