#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2012-12-31

hozerI have not tried anything with lm8 .. I am fighting with libstdc++ problems with iverilog now00:00
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: cgminer: disable curses support (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/959b32000:34
hozerI may have a minsoc bitstream soon00:34
hozerwheee, 4 cores, 2 idle, one synthesizing Milkymist, one synthesizing Opencores MinSoC00:55
hozerbtw, I found the lm32 .. https://github.com/milkymist/lm3200:56
whitequarkwpwrak: the funny fact is, *every* atmega could be replaced with a cheaper STM32 chip04:43
whitequarkliterally every04:43
wpwrakthat doesn't make sense04:50
wpwrake.g., this one is USD 1.08 @ 100: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ATMEGA48A-AU/ATMEGA48A-AU-ND/227103804:51
wpwrakthe cheapest STM32 is 1.92604:51
wpwrakgrmbl. i load a busy loop into that LPC111x and it draws LESS current than the boot loader ??04:54
wpwrakat least this tells me that something has changed. don't see any I/O activity yet04:54
wpwraknow .. where's the stupid bug that keeps all this from working ...04:55
whitequarkwpwrak: hm. yes. well, not literally.05:04
whitequarkI missed something somewhere.05:05
whitequarkwpwrak: I thought a lot if I should provide an AVR backend for my language implementation05:06
whitequarkLLVM already has one; it seems that it could only work in quite a restricted mode compared to things I could freely do on 32-bit MCUs05:07
whitequarkthis is true of GCC as well, of course05:07
whitequarkbasically I decided to concentrate on ARM, more precisely Cortex-M3, first, and then see if/where should I expand the support.05:08
wpwrakmakes sense. first see if the concept works at all, then go multiplatform05:09
wpwrakvictory ! :)05:13
wpwrakhad to set the LSB in vectors to indicate thumb mode. duh.05:14
whitequarkyeah. sometimes you need to fight with assembler to do that :)05:15
wpwrakit's all in C. i'm holding them to their promise that you can use that chip without ever touching assembler05:16
wpwraki do check the assembler, though ;-)05:16
whitequarkyeah, I like how the interrupt controller implements EABI itself05:16
whitequarkit seems that they tried to pack half of an RTOS in hardware and succeeded05:17
wpwrakindeed ;-)05:17
whitequarkalso. not sure about NXP, but STM32 makes peripherals in a kinda nice way which for 80% of cases basically allows to chain them with DMA and trigger lines05:18
whitequarkso that you don't even need to handle interrupts, most of the time05:18
whitequarkyay power consumption05:18
whitequark(and the fact that I can take a user-readable map for such interaction written in Ruby, process it on the host and turn into register values, all without bothering the user too much ;)05:19
wpwraki don't see DMA in my chip. it's a pretty low-endish one anyway.05:20
whitequarkwpwrak: another very, very nice thing is how I avoid checking bounds on most array accesses yet make accidental memory corruption pretty hard05:28
whitequarkthe point is, you very rarely need to "just" index an element in an array05:28
whitequarkalmost all time you want to iterate it, or maybe add data to circular buffer, or push something onto stack, or whatever. so...05:29
wpwrakyes, if your compiler can figure out what the loops do, it can do the check outside the loop, and even decide it doesn't need one if the bounds are constant05:30
whitequark(LLVM does what you say, through)05:31
whitequarkthe trick is to use closures whenever possible05:32
whitequarkin a very similar way, you could update elements in an array with #map! method, compute a sum (or any different derivative) with #reduce05:33
wpwrakyeah, a higher-level pattern to analyze then05:33
whitequarkI don't even need to analyze anything05:33
whitequarkI just spare the user from writing indexing code manually in most of the cases, and the problem with incorrect manually written indexing code fades away :)05:34
whitequarkit is amazing how much errors you can eradicate by basically just shuffling code around, with nothing to pay at runtime, and without complex and possibly flawed static analysis05:36
whitequarkmy main optimization is inlining, as you can see. I inline methods and closures, everything, and up to the point where nothing else could be inlined. (In fact, I internally implement methods as closures.)05:37
whitequarkand, again, I don't need anything too complex; performance impact of inlining all the simple cases dwarfs all the other ones, combined05:38
whitequarkinlining (combined with SSA and escape analysis) is also how I infer types. without knowing what #each does, it won't be possible to determine the type of `val' inside the closure05:39
whitequark(SSA helps to figure out types for variables. e.g. `if foo; a = 1; else a = "bar"; end' is an error)05:42
wpwrakhmm. given a symbol whose address is known at link time. i want to use the negative address in a constant initializer. seems impossible, doesn't it ?05:45
wpwrak(it's to calculate a checksum)05:45
whitequarkI think it is possible05:46
whitequarkwith linker scripts you can perform arbitrary arithmetics on symbol addresses, so define `b = 0 - a', and then use `&b' in your initializer05:47
whitequarkthis *should* work05:47
whitequarkin fact, simply use 0 - &b in your initializer.05:47
whitequarkand -Os05:47
wpwrakah, that's a good idea. let's see if ld likes it, too05:48
whitequarkthe latter won't work: test.c:2:10: error: initializer element is not a compile-time constant05:49
whitequark(yeah, it's a link-time one. relocs probably cannot express the relation required here.)05:49
wpwrakdoing the - in the linker script seems to do the trick. lemme check the math ...05:51
whitequarkwpwrak: http://pastie.org/560070205:52
wpwrakworks :)05:52
wpwrakjust -a works05:53
wpwrakthanks ! now i have a nice solution :)05:53
whitequarkyou're welcome05:54
whitequarkbtw, why would you want such a checksum?05:54
wpwrakthe LPC111x boot loader uses that to determine whether the vector table is valid05:55
whitequarkI see05:56
whitequarkwhat do you do with that nxp thingy? a new qi-hw project?05:56
wpwraki'll use it to control my LED bar05:58
whitequark(btw, do check the errata list for your MCU. nxp is famous for not fixing obvious bugs :/)05:58
whitequark(on the other hand, STM kinda tends to miss them. a guy I know recently found that if PLL freq >= 64 MHz and MCU is put to sleep, it'll never wake up. Errata updated :)05:59
whitequark(problems with NXP included something like non-working SD card boot in revs A-F, which was found in rev A)06:00
wpwrak"let's not fix this since somebody may depend on that feature" :)06:01
whitequarkI don't even want to know what was in the head of a manager who decided to avoid fixing that06:01
wpwrakit may be just that06:02
whitequarkwell, they fixed it eventually06:02
wpwrakthey have lots of little feature updates. but each gets a new part number, not just a chip revision.06:02
whitequarkof course, it's next to impossible to buy the right revision06:03
whitequarkand none of the 3rd-party developer boards would have it06:03
wpwrakget to know your FAE and treat him well :)06:04
whitequarkfield applications engineer?06:04
wpwrakField Application Engineer. the hybrid sales/tech critter manufacturers send to their "good" customers.06:05
whitequarkoh, I also have a nice story about TI06:05
whitequarkthe same guy bought a Smart Battery System devkit06:06
whitequarkyou know, the one where battery authenticates the host via RSA (or something like that) prior to providing the power, and commits suicide if you try to update its EEPROM a little too hard06:06
whitequark(I still have no idea why battery authenticates the host and not vice-versa)06:07
wpwraksounds like a fun concept :)06:07
whitequarkit's probably in your notebook, if you have one06:07
whitequarkso, he buys this devkit, plays with it for some time and forgets for half a year06:08
whitequarkafter that, he tries to redownload the datasheet. boom, there is zero hits on TI site by partnumber06:08
whitequarkhe asks the support where the datasheet is and gets a reply that they don't have such a part and never did06:08
whitequarkhe shows them the order number and photos06:09
whitequarkand GETS BANNED.06:09
whitequarkhow the...? I don't even understand how such a thing is even possible?!06:09
whitequarkand why?!06:10
wpwrakthat would usually be a good moment to talk to some friends in the press. make sure whatever TI are trying to cover up gets as much coverage as possible :)06:10
whitequarkthe parts with adjacent numbers are still there06:10
whitequarkfor me, this just doesn't make a slightest bit of sense06:12
whitequarkwpwrak: talking about FAE... http://www.faemagazine.com/06:13
whitequarkthis is even metaphorically related06:14
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lpc111x-isp/lpc111x.c: if file argument is given, flash that file (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/66d091306:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lpc111x-isp/lpc111x.c: new option -r to reset the target and let it run (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/c7a7d3506:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lpc111x-isp/test/: proof of concept LED-blinking code (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/49ff81f06:20
whitequarkwpwrak: btw, do you have a degree in EE? or another kind of finished formal education?06:21
whitequarkelectronics-related, that is06:21
wpwrakwell, there was a bit of electronics in comp. sci. and i have a phd in communication systems. (though that didn't involve the lower layers)06:22
wpwrakso the qi-hw stuff i'm playing with is mostly DIY learning06:23
whitequarkI wonder how would the fact that I'm a college dropout affect my employment (if the language thingy doesn't take off). Programming websites in ruby is nice, but it's definitely not what I'd like to do for the rest of my life.06:24
whitequark(and that what I learned has nothing to do with CS nor EE)06:25
wpwrakmakes things more difficult, of course. it helps if you make projects that have a lot of visibility.06:27
whitequark(on the other hand, I'd need some kind of degree to emigrate anyway, so...)06:30
wpwrakdegrees are useful to keep the paper-pushers happy :)06:32
whitequarkthis is their main purpose :)06:32
whitequarkI've seen vacancies for cleaners with a degree. not joking.06:33
wpwraksomebody must be enjoying that06:35
whitequarkwell, it is not like HRs were extra clever anyway. another example: mail.ru (think russian yahoo) HR once interviewed my now-colleague. half a year (sic) later they send him a e-mail, say that they lost the results (sic) and ask him to come again06:37
whitequarkthis is slightly below the median. again, I wish I was joking.06:38
wpwrakthe world needs stupid people to keep the IQ balanced :)06:40
viricI've an old bttv card... does anybody have experience with that?10:29
wpwrakviric: i used to watch tv on that kind of critter10:51
viricit's a hell10:52
viricI used one slot, it said it can't route irq or so10:52
viricI used another slot, and the system doesn't see it10:52
viricand I don't have more slots10:52
viricWhat's a cheap device to capture from S-video or so, these days?10:53
viricwpwrak: http://www.pcbox.com/comprar-capturadora-de-video-woxter-i-video-capture-20-usb-2-0_wox72.aspx?ch=000002051100020107120312080212f151ac64e56250aca4c1d1e31155551c0#.UOFuzBBuO00 this looks good, no?10:54
viricthen it'd have to work in linux. frightening10:55
viricthe only usb thing I see in the kernel is Empia EM28xx USB video capture support10:57
wpwrakhmm, back then the bttv just worked :) and yes, that was under linux, of course11:00
viricwpwrak: when I can make bttv load, it says it doesn't identify my card though11:01
viric(card=somenumber, tuner=somenumber, mess)11:01
wpwrakah, i think the tuner was a parameter you sometimes had to set11:02
wpwrakfor some reason it couldn't always autoprobe it11:02
viricone chip, hundreds of incompatible boards11:03
wpwrakthe thing is that it's multiple chips and there seem to be lots of different tuner chips (on I2C)11:04
viricok, found one USB that should be supported by linux!11:09
viric'Conceptronic Home Video Creator', 20¬, EM2862 chipset11:09
wpwrakyou should be able to identify the tuner of your bttv by looking at the board. then you can set the module parameter.11:14
viricwpwrak: but bttv doesn't even identify the card11:39
wpwrakyou mean on PCI ?11:42
viricbttv knows the pci card is for him11:43
viricbut it says "unknown card"11:43
wpwrakmaybe google for the exact error message. there's always someone who's solved the same problem.11:43
wpwrak(or for the message sequence)11:43
viricI tried11:43
viricand I didn't find anything11:44
wpwraklook for the PCI ID ?11:45
wpwrakxxxx:xxxx "unknown card"11:46
viricwpwrak: nah, the pciid is found fine. otherwise bttv wouldn't be loaded.12:12
viricwpwrak: it's bttv that doesn't know what's "in the card"12:12
viricit's a messy world.12:12
viricI just bought a usb card12:12
viricI've to hope it will work12:12
wpwrakthe PCI ID would be the key to problem reports that then dig deeper12:15
viricI've made that card work12:16
viricthe usual procedure is "pass card=somenumber", testing different numbers, until it will work12:16
viricBut I made that work years ago. And now, one pci slot can't route the irq properly, the other doesn't show the pci card at all12:16
viricsome posts say that these cards don't work well with pci irq sharing, ...12:17
viricI've no hope in it anymore.12:17
wpwrakhow easily we give up :)12:17
viric;) yes12:17
viricI could improve the bttv driver and make it work, I know ;)12:18
wpwrakor just find the right settings :)12:19
viricamong 140 different cards implemented?12:22
viricOk, the usb dongle works! I've the vcr signal :)12:22
viricquite noisy12:22
viric supported norms: 0 = NTSC; 1 = NTSC-M; 2 = NTSC-M-JP; 3 = NTSC-M-KR; 4 = NTSC-443; 5 SECAM; 15 = SECAM-B; 16 = SECAM-G; 17 = SECAM-H; 18 = SECAM-DK; 19 = SECAM-L; 20 = SEC12:23
viricthat's no PAL? grmbl12:23
wpwrakoh. so you went to a shop. i thought you had ordered the USB critter online.12:23
viricI dislike online.12:23
viricI like going back to the shop, saying "It doesn't work for me", and getting the money back12:23
viricIn the linux world, it happens from time to time.12:23
wpwrakheh :)12:26
wpwrakjust thought today wouldn't be a good day for going to a physical shop12:26
viricmh RCA gives a much better picture than s-video12:27
wpwrakold, proven technology :)12:30
viricnow I wonder how can I make the alsa 'record device' go to my alsa 'playback device'12:33
wpwrakthat's the problem with solving problems. solving an easy one immediately unlocks a much harder one.12:41
viricit's choppy. no idea why.12:50
wpwrakUSB :)12:51
viricI think the card delivers audio only every 0.5s12:52
wpwrakwhy bother at all ? :)12:53
viricI want to save some VCR12:54
wpwrakno, i mean: why do they bother at all to pretend to provide audio if it's unusable12:54
wpwrakare there maybe any interesting complaints in dmesg ?12:55
virichm no, it's fine12:56
wpwrakof could that USB critter be on a problem port and/or sharing the hub with company that's too numerous or too nasty ?12:56
wpwrak(the internal hub)12:56
viricit'd be weird.12:56
viricI don't think so. I think it's more related to buffering12:57
wpwrak500 ms is pure evil12:58
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/README: document GPIO and register access (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/9d2982113:04
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/README: describe how to get rid of competing drivers (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/506db2d13:04
viricno idea13:07
viricit's a hell13:07
viricmplayer plays the video fine, but with audio, no.13:08
viricIf mplayer plays the video, then 'arecord' in parallel can record the sound perfect.13:08
whitequarkviric: (buying online) I prefer to check if it works _prior_ to buying anything.14:03
whitequarkthis tends to be slightly more effective ;)14:03
viricit's a pain to do that14:13
whitequarkwait, I don't get it14:15
whitequarkoh nevermind14:15
viricforums and forums and forums14:26
viricfor the case, all I find about the card I have is that it works for them.14:26
wpwrakviric: make sure you post your negative experience, so the next poor fellow is warned :)14:28
kyakat the end of the day, it works in Linux. What else do we want? :)14:57
wpwrakmake the part of the day before the happy end pass faster ? :)14:59
kyakwpwrak: what about a command to read pin status in libubb?15:17
hozerso... anyone looked into USB-3.0?15:17
kyakhozer: as in "look in a hole that represents USB 3.0 port on my laptop", i did :)15:18
Action: hozer is a masochist, I want to design a USB 3.0 serdes15:19
hozercause, well, the infiniband-fpga is still too niche for anyone to care15:20
hozeror at least figure out if the xilinx LX25T could do thunderbolt and/or usb3.015:20
hozererr xcs6LX25T15:20
hozeroh, and neat toy: http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/TH05.html15:22
whitequarkhozer: cool15:29
whitequarkAFAIK there is no open EHCI controller now15:29
whitequarknot even talking about XHCI15:29
hozeranyone else want to help me write a patent for 2X DDR Infiniband over a Thunderbolt cable? ;)15:34
hozerI'd say forget about XHCI nonsense and let's just use infiniband for open hardware (and let someone else make an IB to USB3.0 bridge chip)15:35
hozerhttp://bitspjoule.org/hg/Brick/ has a patent template15:37
wpwrakkyak: the PIN(mask) macro does that. see the README for all the details :)15:39
wpwrakhozer: combine with a nonsense text generator and you can automatically file a few hundred patents per day. that should be a useful portfolio. whenever something new pops up, you search your nonsense patents for a match. every once in a while you ought to have something ...15:44
hozerwpwrak: it costs $125 a pop to file15:46
hozerso I think it would work better if there were humans in the loop15:46
hozeroh, that's US patents. I have no idea about international stuff15:47
wpwrak$125 isn't all that much. humans are far more expensive.15:52
hozerokay fine, write me a nonsense patent generator and I'll start filing them :)15:53
hozeryou can have 25% of the patent license fees recovered ;)15:53
whitequarkhozer: why XHCI is nonsense? it's industry standard and soon it will be everywhere.15:56
hozershow me the vhdl :P15:57
whitequarkhozer: use the spec to write one15:57
hozerthere's an opencores usb2.0 host, right?15:57
whitequarkhozer: as far as I know, no. but my knowledge might be outdated. let me check15:58
whitequarkyeah, it doesn't seem there is an EHCI controller on opencores16:00
whitequarkhozer: http://contextfreepatentart.tumblr.com/16:19
whitequarkand say this is not a production of a nonsense generator.16:19
whitequarkhttp://contextfreepatentart.tumblr.com/post/37789336964 haha I love the "personal information" arrows16:23
whitequarkor http://contextfreepatentart.tumblr.com/image/2876739602416:37
wpwrakis that a patent on patentophobia ?16:42
whitequarkI can't seem to find a PDF16:43
wpwrakmaybe that's for the better :)16:43
whitequarkoh indeed16:44
whitequarkha. this new year eve resembles for me exactly what it is: just another regular day. and I like it.16:45
wpwraklow paranoia, moderate anger ? :)16:46
whitequarkwpwrak: I think you might have a slightly biased view of me now :) stuff tends to accumulate for months.16:47
whitequarkmore like the opposite. doing socially expected stuff at socially expected holidays can be quite stressful.16:48
wpwrakindeed. the famous xmas effect. all those family dramas and so on.16:48
whitequarkhm, I never encountered this as a well-known effect. just an observation. through this doesn't surprise me16:49
wpwraki don't know if it has an official name. but each year around this time people get crazy.16:50
wpwrakparticularly towards the 24th, of course. the 31st tends to be much better.16:51
whitequarkhere it is slightly different. almost no one celebrates 24th. those who do, make it at Jan 7th "old style" (calendar change, etc.)16:52
whitequarkbut it's not much either16:52
whitequarkso all the insanity dumps into the air at 31th16:52
wpwraki guess all those who feel that certain urge to kill their family/significant other/previous significant other/neighbours/etc. or be killed by them will have had opportunities to do so by now, so things are less tense16:52
wpwrakah, i see16:52
wpwrakother countries, other insanity days :)16:53
whitequarkyeah. I think it's due to the fact that USSR tried to eradicate religious holidays, with quite some success16:55
wpwraknot a bad idea16:55
wpwrakdisentangle things a bit. well, depends on whether they remove them or whether they replace them with equally arbitrary holidays.16:57
whitequarkof course, they replace with arbitrarily holidays. with names which make some religious things look perfectly sensible in comparison16:58
whitequarkha, it dawned on me that you (and anyone non-russian, for that matter) probably don't know anything about our holidays :) let me elaborate then16:59
whitequarkthere isn't much of them. Main ones:17:00
whitequark1. Dec 31st. New Year, all that. Celebrated by gifting neatly packaged stuff (only children are lucky enough to get anything actually useful), dressing a fir tree in glass balls/figurines and colorful ribbons, and heavy drinking.17:02
whitequarktwo weeks before everything is paralyzed due to sheer traffic. week after is simply dead. two weeks after early brids return to work.17:02
whitequarkeverything kinda returns to normal to early-mid february17:03
whitequark2. Feb 23th. Day of Motherland's Defender (or something like that). Basically boys' day. (It is quite ironic that probably most of the people getting greetings on this day never were in army and have absolutely no intent). Celebrated by gifting cheap pens and notepads. Not a national holiday AFAIK.17:05
whitequark3. May 8th. International Woman's Day. (Is it actually "international"? I'm not sure.) Basically girls' day, symmetric to the previous one. Equally useless gifts, also flowers.17:07
whitequarker, March 8th, of course17:07
whitequark4. May 9th. Day of Victory (in WW2). Celebrated by wearing these bands http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/1//58/652/58652752_5116_1.jpg in places appropriate and not (they'll hang from everywhere for several extra months), saying how all of you are proud of veterans due to whom you're currently alive, and having no respect whatsoever to said veterans. (I wish I was being sarcastic.) Fortunately, soon there won't be any left to obser17:10
whitequarkve this shame, and it'll become just another day to drink on. National holiday. Usually clustered with a few more days  off, producing a total clusterfuck in calendar where weekdays are arbitrarily shuffled.17:11
whitequark(I never understood what logic do they use to reorder days. It is incredibly confusing, and also some institutions suddenly decide they won't live up to a national standard. Like schools.)17:11
wpwrak31st sounds like 24/25th in the west17:13
wpwrakexcept that, at least in the northern hemisphere, people return to work relatively soon thereafter17:13
wpwrakin the southern hemisphere, this marks the begining of the summer holiday season17:14
whitequark5. Sep 1th. Day of Knowledge. Celebrated by observing kids on the internet and facepalming. Seriously now: everyone goes to school; kids in primary and middle school bring tons of flowers and chocolate to teachers.17:15
whitequarkHigh school, basically the same, less flowers. University: even less flowers.17:15
wpwrakday of knowledge sounds sweet :)17:16
whitequarkwell, chocolate and flowers are the default gift for women here17:16
whitequarkused on all holidays. it's just that teachers, especially in primary/middle school, are mostly women17:16
whitequarkone can end up with 5-8 packs of chocolate sweets at the end of the day17:17
wpwrakuseful for fattening up for that harsh russian winter17:17
whitequarkhmm, let me check if I missed something. is looking up holidays of your own country on wikipedia that bad?..17:19
whitequarkah, Jan 14th, "Old New Year". Oxymoron intended. Basically you have a week starting at 31th, 7th and 14th to begin drinking and get rid of hangover to prepare for the next one.17:20
whitequarkOr just do it non-stop.17:20
whitequarkalso calendar-related quirk.17:20
whitequarklolwtf, Jan 14th is also Day of Creation of Pipeline Carrier Armed Forces.17:21
whitequarkStalin surely had a sense of humor.17:21
whitequarkJan 25th, Day of students. Day when MSU was founded. Nothing really interesting.17:22
wpwraki find argentine holidays here: http://www.mininterior.gov.ar/asuntos_politicos_y_alectorales/dinap/feriados.php?idName=asuntos&idNameSubMenu=DiNAP&idNameSubMenuDer=DirNAPFeriados#feriados/feriados2013.php17:22
wpwrakas you can see, there's quite a lot of them. some get added during the year.17:22
whitequarkFeb 14th, you know what it is. Quite a lot of Russian nationalists hate it as being too west-related17:23
whitequarkwpwrak: yeah, I'm looking through a similar list, but filter obvious nonsense and things that no one knows about (except bureaucrats)17:23
hozeranyone got csg324 package libs for KiCad?17:23
wpwrakhozer: we have something called "BGA-324", 15x15 mm, 0.8 mm pitch. does that fit ?17:24
wpwrakit's in bga.fpd17:25
hozerthat seems like it17:25
wpwrakhere's the catalog: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf17:25
wpwrakand here for schematics symbols: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-components.pdf17:26
hozeryeah, but where can I just 'apt-get install' it from :P17:26
wpwrakyou check out the repository :)17:26
hozerso here's a theory.. say I lay out a board with Kicad, and annotate all the pins17:26
hozerno, not yet :)17:26
hozerand then I change out a Xilinx FT256 (17mmx17mm, 1.0 pitch), for a CSG32417:27
wpwrakand for modules, you also need to convert: check out and install fped (or apt-get install it - it's now in debian), then run "make" in kicad-libs/modules/17:27
hozerthere should, in theory be some way to generate the part of the constraints file and auto-route the pcb, right?17:27
wpwrakhuh ? not sure what you mean17:28
wpwrakwhat means "annotate all the pins" ?17:28
hozerwhen you make an fpga bitstream, you have this file that 'constrains' all the signals to physical pins on the fpga part17:28
wpwrakand what autorouter to you mean ? freeroute ?17:28
wpwrakoh, that. well, kicad knows nothing about that :)17:29
hozerI have no idea, I've never actually done this, but this is what I *want* to be able to do17:29
wpwrakyou could make such a tool. of course, you'd want such tools for a great many other things, too.17:30
hozerso if I have a board, with a schematic, and I have an FPGA signal named MGTRXN1, and it's wired to pin5 on a mini-displayport or something17:30
wpwrakin the end, everybody does these mappings manually ...17:30
wpwrakyes, i understand. and it would be the same for, say, microcontrollers.17:30
wpwraki.e., "the gpio that connects to the green led"17:31
hozerand you type 'make' and the PCB autorouter and the FPGA placer go fight over what pin on the fpga (or micro) it gets17:31
wpwrakas far as i know, no tool that lets you work at that level exists17:31
wpwrakand we don't have a usable autorouter anyway :)17:32
hozerheh, why not ;)17:32
wpwrakyou can choose between one that's open but doesn't work, and one that does work but is closed17:32
hozerso what's the open one that's busted17:33
wpwrakthe one built into kicad. or at least it was there. may have been dropped since.17:34
wpwrakthere's also an autoplacer that visually shows how kicad is looking for the worst possible placement. that makes it not only unusable but also incredibly slow.17:34
wpwraki'd consider these critters misguided practical jokes17:35
wpwrakbesides, an auto-whatever is rarely good enough to get the job done17:35
wpwrakinteractive routers are much more useful17:35
hozerokay, does kicad have that?17:36
wpwrakionly the external web-based and closed "freerouter"17:36
hozerso the ideal situation is the  interactive router knows that there are X number of possible pins my LED wire can go to on the micro17:37
wpwrakyes, something like that17:37
hozerthis is still really an art, isn't it?17:37
wpwrakwhen push-routing, it could then not only push traces out of the way, but also swap them as suitable17:37
wpwrakyes, pretty much17:38
wpwrakthat sophisticated pattern matching engine we carry around in our skulls is still rather impressive :)17:38
whitequarkwpwrak: http://www.calend.ru/holidays/russtate/ the full list17:42
whitequarkhozer: I recommend to check out topological interactive router, TopoR17:43
whitequarkhttp://eda.eremex.com/ this I think17:44
hozerbaaaaaaaaahhh humbug17:45
hozerit makes some pretty damn cool art17:45
whitequarkbut it's the only autorouter known to me which actually produces very decent results17:45
whitequarkhozer: also, less crosstalk :)17:45
hozerwell, I want to use the same damn router for PCB that I use for silicon17:46
hozerso I think I'm off on a 10-year Don Quixote quest17:46
whitequarkdo you route and manufacture silicon? I want to look at it :)17:46
hozernot yet. ;)17:46
hozercurrently I buy 30 year old farm equipment for scrap metal price+10%, and fix it17:47
whitequarkinteresting process. what do you want to achieve?17:47
whitequarkhave you heard of http://opensourceecology.org/ ?17:47
hozerso sometime in the next 15 years I'll need to replace undocumented micros from bankrupt companies to get the old farm equipment working17:48
hozerI'm amused by them.17:48
hozerI love the excitement, but I don't think any of them have ever actually grown enough food to survive for a year17:48
whitequarkI don't see how this is bad17:49
whitequarkit's not like, for example, Qi HW is self-sustainable either...17:49
hozerthey are excited about the 'lifetrac' , but don't seem to have any understanding of the practical reasons why the design of a tractor hasn't fundamentally changed in 30 years17:49
hozerwhat's changed on the tractor is addition of silicon... thus anyone getting into farming *now* will need Qi-HW17:50
whitequarkhozer: what's wrong with lifetrac?17:50
hozerit's kinda like trying to use an FPGA on a high-volume production item where power consumption and battery life is critical17:53
hozerLifetrac is basically a skid-loader, and does not work very well at all as a tractor17:53
hozerand having it try to do both functions makes it bad at both17:53
hozertractors are designed to pull, thus the big wheels in back, and engine up front17:54
whitequarkwell, it's not like they actually can do mass-production yet. maybe it's better to use an FPGA at this stage.17:56
whitequarkthey seem to do a lot of real, tangible work. I'd love to see what comes out.17:57
hozerthe thing is I bought a perfectly good tractor for $250017:58
hozerthey spend quite a bit more than that fabricating the lifetrac17:59
hozerthat's not the labor, that's just the materials17:59
hozernow, if I could put some open-source GPS receivers and a network on my 30 year old combine, THAT would provide some real productivity gains18:00
hozerthe best thing the OSE guys are doing is making open-source machine tools18:00
hozerso I could make a cold saw from their designs and cut and fabricate replacement parts from a scrap pile18:01
whitequarkhozer: do you want to achieve self-sustainability for the sake of it? or something else?18:04
hozerso, in summary, I like what the OSE guys are doing. But as the guy who got (more than) half his income from corn/soybean sales this year, the *real* civilization starter kit is on #homecmos18:05
kristianpaulhozer: what feature you need from an open-source gps receiver implementation?18:05
kristianpaulHi btw18:05
hozercentimeter accuracy18:05
hozerthat's repeatable over a span of 25 years18:06
hozerso.. that's going to require some sort of ground-based RTK or whatever the acronym is base station18:06
kristianpaulthat can be achieved not only by be open source, i meant is not the gps receiver fault at all18:07
hozerground-penetrating radar (or a robot) to figure out if the tile maps are accurate befor digging would be nice too18:07
kristianpaulyou can mix with glonass18:07
kristianpauladd navigation18:07
hozerin reality, I probably don't need (or want?) gps at all, I just want 802.11a/b/g with a couple of base stations at the corners of the field that do triangulation18:09
hozerif you have to do RF, you might as well transmit/receive usefull data over a standard protocol, right?18:10
whitequarkhozer: 80211? triangulation?18:10
hozerwell, why not?18:10
hozerif you have a software defined radio, and good timestamps, can't you figure18:10
hozerout how far away from the transmitter you are?18:10
whitequarkoh, you want to measure signal propagation delay18:11
whitequarkwell, if you figure out how to synchronize clocks on such scale... good for you18:11
whitequarkthis is going to be very hard IMO18:11
hozerwell, that might be what gps is good for ;)18:12
whitequarkwpwrak might know more about it18:12
whitequarkhozer: gps does not provide the accuracy you need18:12
hozerdamn I hate google's url obfuscation18:13
whitequarkhozer: hm18:13
hozerall the precision ag (1cm) applications require some sort of RTK base station18:15
hozeractually, now that I think about it a little, line-of-sight laser might be a heck of a lot easier with some cheap robotics18:16
whitequarkhozer: where do you live?18:17
hozerhere's another thought: tractor broadcasts a 'ping'18:17
hozerbase stations (with fpga, or just plain analog) reflect a 'pong'18:17
hozer(probably on different frequencies), and some software defined radio magic figures out the distance to each base station18:18
hozerMinnesota/Iowa (US)18:18
kristianpaulrtk yeap18:23
kristianpaulask lindi- ;-)18:24
whitequarkwpwrak: haha look what just opened in moscow: http://www.chipdip.ru/about/news/cafe-pripoj.aspx18:47
hozerare they really combining soldering and food?18:49
whitequarkhozer: seems so18:50
Action: hozer looks at his bowl of oatmeal about 15cm from a soldering iron18:50
whitequarkwe all know you shouldn't do that, yet all do it ;)18:51
hozerHello LunaVorax, what brings you here?18:52
wpwrakhmm, i actually keep my food about 1 m from the solder fumes :)18:56
LunaVoraxNothing especial hozer, I just enjoy being on IRC18:56
LunaVoraxAnd I still can't find my Nanonote :'(18:57
whitequarkwpwrak: this might be the only way in which lead-free solder is actually beneficial19:00
wpwraki think there's plenty more in there you don't want to ingest19:01
hozerheh heh heh19:02
whitequarkwpwrak: well, you could only get argyria19:02
whitequarkand copper poisoning19:02
hozerit's all about quantity19:02
whitequarkthe first thing is actually beneficial to you, in fact, as you'd never ever get a bacterial infection19:02
whitequarkif you don't mind being purple, of course.19:03
whitequarklike this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm19:04
wpwrakwhitequark: no copper in the solder19:06
wpwrakwhitequark: bit the flux should be a delicacy19:06
whitequarkwpwrak: isn't lead-free solder Sn-Ag-Cu?19:06
whitequarkthe Cu content is somewhere around 1.5%, IIRC, but it's a heavy metal nevertheless19:07
wpwrakah right, lead-free formulas often have traces of copper19:07
whitequarkhuh, indium solder19:11
whitequarkisn't In quite rare as it is to waste it on solder?19:11
wpwrakhmm, seems that there's no nice way for a process to find out if it has been mlockall'ed19:14
whitequarkwpwrak: /proc should have that somewhere19:17
wpwrakneither /proc/<pid>/maps nor /proc/<pid>/pagemap reveals VM_LOCKED19:17
wpwrakmust be the one thing that /proc doesn't have :)19:18
whitequarkThe VmLck field of the Linux-specific /proc/PID/status file shows how many kilobytes of memory the process with ID PID has locked using mlock(), mlockall(), and mmap(2) MAP_LOCKED.19:18
whitequarklet me check how it changes...19:19
wpwrakhmm, that could be used as a hint ...19:19
wpwrakinteresting. one page below VmSize or VmRSS19:21
wpwrakthat'll be good enough. thanks !19:22
whitequarkwpwrak: have you seen Unicore32?19:36
whitequarkit seems that it is basically a Chinese clone of ARM ISA19:37
Action: whitequark sent an SMS 3 seconds prior to midnight. let's see how long will it take for it to arrive...20:00
whitequark1:25. not bad.20:01
hozerseems like we need a latency plot of sms messages vs time ;)20:13
whitequarkhozer: new year. gsm networks were so overloaded at previous years as to go down completely for hours20:21
hozercommens on the kicad-libs.. wasn't there a guy that did 3-D modules?20:21
whitequarkha, at 0:27: latency 1:55:0021:25
wpwraktwo hours ? so it's something like 02:30 at your place ?21:32
wpwrakmy world time map has most of western russia around 01:3021:34
wpwrakanyway, happy new year ! :)21:34
rz2kyou now recieve knight status for writing bad APIs and providing zero customer support. http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4403955/Imagination-Technologies-CEO-knighted-22:07
Jay7happy new year :)22:24
wpwrakrz2k: as well as furthering obscurity22:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/swuart.c: only return error codes or fail silently; don't print messages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/5f3828f22:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: swuart-chat/chat.c (main): use perror if swuart_open fails (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/0b81ffa22:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lpc111x-isp/lpc111x.c (start_isp): check for swuart_open failure (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/6dfaedd22:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/README.SWUART: document the software-implemented UART (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/9ddc37722:31
--- Tue Jan 1 201300:00

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