#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2012-12-21

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: experimental directive "allow holes" to allow multiple holes per pad (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/bb055fa01:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:fped (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/1bc94d001:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/qfn.fpd: NXP "HVQFN33" footprint (without the vias) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/d9727bb01:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/HIERARCHY: add BGA-256 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/3ae497801:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/: add QFN32-HVQFN (e.g., for NXP LPC1xxx parts) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/94f902401:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/: "make brd" opens pcbnew for footprint examination (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/cce908101:46
wpwrakhmm, not nice: http://www.qi-hardware.com/02:29
wpwrak-> "It works! This is the default web page for this server. The web server software is running but no content has been added, yet."02:30
kristianpaulah i dint noticed it because wiki was already there http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/02:53
wpwrakyes, if you come from a search engine, you end up at the right place02:54
kristianpaulor by qi-hw.com02:55
wpwrakbut not www.qi-hw.com ;-)02:57
wpwrakqi-hardware, meet the dark side of user friendliness ;-)02:59
kristianpaulactually the www subdomain seems to be the problem02:59
wpwrakyeah, without it also qi-hardware.com works03:04
kristianpaulwho uses www those days! ;-)03:17
wpwrakright, all the cool kids use gopher :)03:18
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: genkicat: new option "-t title.ps" to include a title page file (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/560bf9d03:40
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: add title pages to the catalogs, with useful information like the creation date (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e324adc03:54
wpwrak... and this is what it looks like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-components.pdf03:56
DocScrutinizer05thanks, how helpful08:56
DocScrutinizer05roh: ping08:57
DocScrutinizer05roh: do you think gismo could eventually reboot that vserver?08:57
DocScrutinizer05or answer my mails?08:58
DocScrutinizer05or both?08:58
DocScrutinizer05ooh, backscroll suggests at least you are not dead yet09:00
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: do you think this makes for a nice xmess gift I could buy for myself? http://www.ebay.de/itm/LASER-11-WATT-Copper-Vapor-Laser-Kupferdampflaser-/14089742472009:03
DocScrutinizer05http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-R4Kq2l7xE setup starting at 3:15 is actually nice to lure in thunder flash09:12
DocScrutinizer05I'd probably place a lightning catcher next to the upward beam though, so that maybe the mirror could survive strikes09:13
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: then. it's danger and looks like a big weapon. :-)09:14
DocScrutinizer05see 5:4009:14
DocScrutinizer05pulsed with peaks of 5kW09:16
DocScrutinizer05says the german text09:17
DocScrutinizer05I'm much in love with this monster09:18
DocScrutinizer05xiangfu: big weapon for pickup truck mount, yes ;-D09:23
DocScrutinizer05alas: 20min pre-heat09:23
DocScrutinizer05great weapon for mosquito killing with stereo camera & low-power red laser wall positioning and then taking those parasites down with a single 5kW pulse09:25
DocScrutinizer05meh, "taking down" - EVAPORIZING!09:26
DocScrutinizer05also a plausible threat to keep *everybody* out my flat that I don't want to come in. "DANGER! LASER RADIATION! Wear eye protection. DO NOT TOUCH THE BEAM!"09:29
DocScrutinizer05then place 3 pairs of 0.99$ cheap protective goggles on nails under that big scary sign, and be sure *nobody* will ever dare to use them and enter the room without prior allowance09:31
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: "Fasereinkoppelung vorhanden und ok." ... so that's what they use on star trek :)09:33
DocScrutinizer05I guess the whole device been originally used in medical skin treatment09:34
DocScrutinizer05to remove tattoos etc09:34
DocScrutinizer05the LCD display shown in that youtube video suggests that09:35
wpwrakif you don't buy it, lekernel may want to beat you to it :)09:37
wpwrakhmm ... "The laser with it's previous owner"09:47
DocScrutinizer05LOL, what do you imply?09:53
wpwrakthat the laser manufacturer won't have to make good on that "lifetime warranty" ? :)09:56
DocScrutinizer05ok, found a mantra why I should NOT get this thing: it won't arrive in time to celebrate solstice and shoot the mayan apocalypse09:57
wpwrakwell, solstice is in just a few minutes :)09:59
wpwrakbut there's some debate on whether the mayan calendar wrapped already or will wrap today, tomorrow, or maybe on the 23rd09:59
viricare you in the debate?10:00
wpwraknuernberg-vienna is just a few hours of driving, so ... :)10:00
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: eeek, when?10:00
wpwrakviric: naw, just read that there was actually a bit of uncertainty about the precise mapping from mayan to our calendar :)10:01
viricI'm quite impressed anyone can read the mayan scripts10:02
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: (uncertainty on mapping) yeah, to the degree where some (austrian?) guys claim it's early a few 105 orso years10:02
DocScrutinizer05so true apocalypse will happen no earlyer than 2124 or something10:03
DocScrutinizer05GRRRR 4 hours10:04
wpwrakor so the caption of the calendar image claims on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon10:04
DocScrutinizer05I *could* make it to Vienna in 4h10:04
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you only have about one hour, solstice is at 11:12 UTC: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/december-solstice.html10:06
wpwrakyou'll need a jet to make it :)10:07
DocScrutinizer05fsck solstice when I could get that monster laser10:07
wpwrakexactly. who cares about the mayans if you can make your own apocalypse ;-)10:07
DocScrutinizer05could somebody lease pull the plug of my internet?10:08
wpwrakoops, that was xiangfu's plug10:08
DocScrutinizer05yesterday I noticed I had no proper xmess gift for me yet. Pondered to get one of those 1W blue leser LEDs10:09
DocScrutinizer05then I ran into this monster10:09
lekernelDocScrutinizer05: seen that video by patent troll IV? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4tPrcePdGM10:09
lekernela diode actually suffices, it seems10:09
wpwraki got a few chips for myself. nothing fancy, though. (accelerometers, regulators, a few pogo pins)10:10
DocScrutinizer05lekernel: been pondering to search for the link, yes10:11
DocScrutinizer05was thinking of that though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=YnSKrzmpKGw10:11
wpwraklekernel: oh, that looks very satisfying. it's mosquito season here and despite all the gassing, they still keep on coming ...10:13
lekernelpatent trolling seems to work for them, though. http://intellectualventureslab.com/10:13
lekernelbeats the average hackerspace by a pretty wide margin10:14
wpwrakthis one has more context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSKrzmpKGw10:18
DocScrutinizer05this been about what I originally looked for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=PbWGjPByXKk10:18
DocScrutinizer05a mere 2W though10:22
wpwrakand there's the "easy DIY" variant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiShG2OxWVc10:22
DocScrutinizer05my current 10mW blue laser can't do that, and the 200mW green neither10:23
DocScrutinizer05which kinda proves that 200mW != 200mW when it comes to effects10:24
DocScrutinizer05for technical purposes blue lasers are obviously more effective. For the OHCHEEZ you can't beat green laser 10:27
DocScrutinizer05since it's just the wavelength where human eye is most sensible10:27
DocScrutinizer05so green always will look way brighter than blue10:28
DocScrutinizer05though blue light of same power has more 'technical' impact than green10:28
DocScrutinizer05comparing the two http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66aVXk5jSn8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5HjdmVcoDw , I probably will go for the green one. No doubt10:35
DocScrutinizer05esp since blue is *really* dangerous, by building up radicals in your retina10:35
DocScrutinizer05basically what's the fun in watching a blue laser, when you need protective goggles that dim down the light by a factor 10010:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: that's why, anticipating geekdom, evolution designed us with a backup eye :)10:38
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: backup eye will help nuttin when staring at the blue laser spot at the wall with both eyes same time10:46
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: how reflective are your walls ? :)10:48
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: it's not the "don't stare into laser beam with the remaining eye" effect. It's the mere light that kills your retina10:48
DocScrutinizer05seems the monochromatic coherent light has special properties to create radicals10:49
DocScrutinizer05which in turn kills your receptors10:49
DocScrutinizer05no laser like bundling needed10:49
wpwrakhmm, direct beam hit vs. diffused reflection. i think you'd have to be very close to the wall or have a heck of a laser to get any damage.10:50
DocScrutinizer05that's why I said blue lasers are no fun for sane people10:50
viricwe work with lasers...10:55
viricusually, 10mW max, and we are very careful on what we do with them10:55
viricwe focus them either with protective glasses, or seen through a camera/screen10:56
viricwe know people which work with the same lasers with less care, that have gone through doctors for problems in the eyes10:57
viricI'd be very very careful with a 200mW laser.10:57
DocScrutinizer05>>The power of this laser is no joke, at 1W the Spyder III Pro Arctic is a Class 4 Laser. Do not allow unprotected eye exposure to diffusely scattered light from the beam terminating on a wall, the floor or other flat surface from this laser closer than 3 feet.<<10:59
DocScrutinizer05plain speech: a blue laser of 2W is highly dangerous not only when staring into the beam but also when watching the projection spot on the wall11:01
DocScrutinizer05I'm just looking at the spot of my 5mW blue on the wall, ~5ft away11:03
DocScrutinizer05maybe 411:03
DocScrutinizer05already creates scary optical artifacts in the eye11:04
DocScrutinizer05the spot looks much larger than it actually is11:04
DocScrutinizer05I don't think I like blue lasers that much11:05
DocScrutinizer05the green allegedly 150mW is a killer in comparison, but feels less nasty nevertheless11:06
DocScrutinizer05I'd not dare to look at the spot if this was a blue one11:07
viriclook to them through a camera. :)11:07
DocScrutinizer05when was solstice?11:08
wpwrakin about 4 minutes11:08
DocScrutinizer05ahh backscroll, thanks11:08
DocScrutinizer05so in 120s11:09
DocScrutinizer05err 17011:09
DocScrutinizer05http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/december-solstice.html  >> connect to upstream server timedout Host: www.timeanddate.com Url: /calendar/december-solstice.html<<< bwahahaha11:10
Mistah_DarcyI just secret santa'd my friend and bought him 5 games on his Steam wishlist11:22
Mistah_Darcyhilariously... one of his friends got jealous I did that and bought him 5 more. LOL11:22
kristianpaulah lovelly http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Reballing-tools-with-chip.JPG :-)12:22
kristianpauland gets better http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Reballing-tools-with-chip-side.JPG12:23
kristianpaulwolfspraul: no definetelly moving away from qfp?12:23
wpwrakinteresting tool. nice and simple :)12:45
rohkristianpaul: i found this recently http://www.reballing.be/index.html12:50
kristianpaulxiangfu: blinking with a counter !12:57
kristianpaulnice ;)12:58
xiangfukristianpaul: Hi12:58
kristianpaulhola :)12:58
xiangfuthat is for test clock is works fine.12:59
xiangfukristianpaul: reballing: I tried on reballing. 13:05
xiangfukristianpaul: so far I think there are one problem is the soldering paste HAVE TO be good. 13:05
xiangfukristianpaul: so there is no good reballing chip so far13:06
xiangfuI already bought 2 branch soldering paste, one from Hongkong. another from Taiwan.13:07
xiangfuno time try reballing again recently. I will update the wiki once I try reballing again. now I have quiet some chips for reballing.13:08
xiangfuthe best should be metal mask excatly same size as chip. 13:08
kristianpaulhow do you align the chip for the balls not to be unaligned when in the oven?13:19
kristianpauli saw a video and the chip begun to "fall" in one side then the other13:19
xiangfualign before put then to oven.13:22
xiangfuwhen there are tin on your pcb bga footprint(all the factory pcb have tin but home-made-pcb)13:22
xiangfuthings get eaier. even your chip a little bit shift. when reflowing the chip will automatic fit to footprint.13:23
xiangfuhome-made-pcb have a lot of trouble.13:23
kristianpaulah shift is fixed with more reflow good to know13:23
kristianpaultrouble, can imagine :-)13:23
xiangfu1. the oxide layer on home-made-pcb13:24
xiangfu2. align the chip. there is no outline of chip. but you can do some trick when pcb etching. add some cutout zone fit the chip outline.13:25
xiangfus/there is no outline of chip/there is no slik layer on home-made-pcb13:26
xiangfu(shift is fixed) very tiny shift. not like shift one big bga ball. :)13:27
kristianpaulhad you tried kapton tape?13:29
kristianpauljust asking not sure if hold the chip with a tape will actyally help..13:30
wpwrakxiangfu: you can tin your DIY PCBs, too13:32
xiangfuwpwrak: yes. I tried that. but I didn't get a good result. 13:32
xiangfuwpwrak: I use the SMT solder. then hot air gun. 13:33
wpwrakxiangfu: just heat up your iron to the maximum, apply flux to the PCB, then distribute a few drops of tin and spread them out13:33
wpwrakxiangfu: naw, just regular solder and the iron. no hot air or solder paste needed.13:33
xiangfuwpwrak: thanks for that. I will try that in next 2 days.13:34
wpwrakyou can still get relatively thick (maybe 0.1 mm) solder deposits on isolated pads but it's usually very thin.13:34
xiangfuwpwrak: after tin my pcb. the align get more difficult. I guess my hand-tin not that smooth. :)13:35
wpwrakif you get too much solder on, say, an IC pad, you can "paint" it on an adjacent trace (if there's one)13:35
wpwrakwith isolated pads, it's messier. you can use desoldering wick to remove excess tin, but you have to be very careful not to damage the pads.13:36
xiangfu("paint" it on an adjacent trace) most of them don't have trace. :(13:36
wpwrakof course, if you damage an isolated pad, it often doesn't matter ;-)13:36
wpwrakyes, BGA is a bit more demanding :)13:36
wpwrakfactory-made pcbs also have a solder mask, which should help with BGAs.13:37
xiangfu(damage the pads) yes. when I put the iron to the isolate pad > ~3~5 secs. the pad will just get off from pcb.13:37
xiangfu(solder mask) yes.13:38
wpwrakbut in general, i think they're a bit too much trouble for manual soldering. particularly since you can't reach (examine or fix) the balls in the middle.13:38
kristianpaulxray :-)13:38
wpwrak(damaged pads) exactly :) in some cases it helps if you decrease the temperature. in other cases, it helps to increase it :)13:39
wpwrakdecrease: if your iron is way too hot.13:39
wpwrakincrease: if the iron is near the melting point of the tin. then it takes a lot of time for the tin to melt and the overall amount of thermal energy is actually larger than what you'd need with a hotter iron.13:40
xiangfuwpwrak: for bga: 1. soldering paste(flux). 2. align bga chip 3. oven 4. I have some probe-pad for test inner connection 5. luck. :)13:40
wpwrakthe temperature also depends on how much heat is conducted away, e.g., to connectors, ground areas, or other large structures13:41
xiangfuwpwrak: are you using 'syringe' when your pase other pads? like 0402/0603/0805 etc.13:41
wpwrakso if you have a particularly nasty spot with a lot of ground fill nearby, it sometimes helps to heat up the iron a little13:42
xiangfuwpwrak: yes.13:42
wpwraki normally solder things manually, without paste13:42
wpwrakif i have to use paste, then yes, i have a syringe (the paste already comes on one)13:42
xiangfuwpwrak: ok. I cannot even buy such thing(syringe + tin inside) in Beijing. at least I cannot find them on taobao or other web-shop. 13:43
wpwrak(have to use paste) for things like center pads in QFN (if i even bother to connect them) or for SMT crystals. crystals are a problem for "traditional" soldering because the tin, applied from the side, is likely to stick to the metal case, so you end up shorting things. 13:44
xiangfugood thing is I don't have much components. no qfp(0.5mm pitch) 13:44
wpwrak"no qfp" ? i thought what you had is 0.5 mm qfp ?13:45
xiangfu(crystals) once I put too much paste. it also get short.13:46
xiangfuonly bga (xc6slx9 ftg256) now.13:46
xiangfuso far I never try qfp + home-made-pcb. since I think the 0.5mm even harder compare to bga 0.8pitch.13:48
xiangfumy printer(600 DPI) give the qfp pins footprint very very close. 13:49
xiangfuI think when I do soldering: qfp-short problems > bga-short problems13:50
wpwrakqfp sound be much easier to fix. i don't think i've had 0.5 mm yet, but 0.65 mm SSOP is very easy13:51
wpwrakif you have a short, just apply flux and pass over the pins with the iron again. either "paint" the tin to adjacent traces or just have it stick to the iron.13:52
wpwrakah, and i solder them with the iron and regular tin, too. no solder paste or reflow oven.13:52
xiangfuhow many pins?13:53
wpwrakfor reflow, i think you need to make a stencil. otherwise, you'll have problems with the amount of solder paste.13:53
wpwrak(pins) small ones, up to 28 pins (ssop). but the number of pins doesn't really matter.13:53
xiangfu(stencil) yes. agree.13:53
wpwrakand QFP is just the same as SSOP.13:54
xiangfuyes. for hand-soldering. better is the QFP.13:56
xiangfuwpwrak: I will take a picture of my qfp144 etching pcb tomorrow. those pins are really close here.13:57
xiangfubtw. I think we have some problem on our bga.fpg. 13:57
wpwrakah, the dual FET in the ledtoy has a 0.5 mm pitch. the package is a bit of a hybrid between SSOP-like pins and QFN (i.e., very short pins)13:57
wpwrakand soldering that was no trouble at all13:58
wpwrak(bga.fpd problem) yes ?13:58
DocScrutinizer05((tinning homemade PCB)) do galvanic!13:58
xiangfuthe pad size is 0.6mm. we edit the pad size base on the ball size. 13:58
xiangfubut the pad size should be < 0.6mm.13:58
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: how ? :)13:59
DocScrutinizer05there are galvanic baths commercially available to tin cover PCB13:59
xiangfuif I don't remember wrong there is a documennt on cx6slx9 chip bga footprint. 13:59
xiangfuthe document have the correct pad size.13:59
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: and how do you connect all the traces ?13:59
DocScrutinizer05you don't do electrogalvanic14:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: ah, i see14:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i think the chemical tinning approach is somewhat nasty. unpleasant and difficult to find witchbrews.14:00
DocScrutinizer05results are maybe sub-optimal, but worth testing14:01
DocScrutinizer05maybe silver coating even does better than tin14:01
xiangfuwpwrak: and the chip outline also wrong I think.14:01
wpwrakxiangfu: lemme check the references ...14:05
wpwrakhmm, no footprints in the altera and xilinx references14:07
wpwraklet's see what NXP have to offer14:07
wpwrakhmm, all paths lead to the universal guide of wisdom, http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN10365.pdf14:09
wpwrakpage 22 is about mixing solder paste and solder balls14:11
wpwrakhere is one that has package and footprint14:14
wpwrakballs are 0.25 +/- 0.05 mm14:15
wpwrakhmm, 0.25 solder land but 0.275 mm solder paste. solder mask is 0.35 mm.14:16
wpwrakso they recommend copper-defined pads and copper diameter == ball diameter14:17
DocScrutinizer05seem to recall similar setups14:18
DocScrutinizer05iirc TI also has some nice guides14:18
wpwraksame here: http://www.nxp.com/packages/SOT1071-1.html14:18
xiangfuwpwrak: http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/package_specs/ft256.pdf <-- there are MIN/NOM/MAX on ball diameter.14:18
wpwrakxiangfu: using NXP's rules, the pad size should correspond to the nominal diameter14:19
DocScrutinizer05basically what those Siemens guys told us at OM was: the footprint libs are one of the core assets of a company usually. Each company has its own, and usually you don't want to use those that come from chip manufs. But ours are great and usable of course14:20
xiangfuwpwrak: I think we better use NOM14:21
xiangfu(the pad size should correspond to the nominal diameter) yes. agree. I will update the bga.fpd.14:22
rohhm. wasnt the size of the hole in the solder mask the defining variable to how much solder paste gets onto a pad?14:24
rohso.. padsize != soldermask-hole-size14:24
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's solderpaste oversizing14:25
DocScrutinizer05or undersizing14:25
DocScrutinizer05seems wpwrak mentioned oversizing above14:25
rohi only know under, but yes14:25
roh ;)14:25
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (ours is great but all others suck) what a refreshingly original concept ;-)14:26
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: (Each company has its own) I belive that. 14:26
rohalso it seems that these 'sizes' are all just recommendations.. not 'things that should work' ... from what ive heard one tunes these more often than what manufs try to admit14:26
rohbtw... if one does make telco equipment, one can use lead based solder :) .. no crappy solder problems14:26
xiangfuwpwrak: what about the outline? should we make it a little bigger?14:28
wpwraklet's see what NXP say ... package is 4.5 +/- 0.1 mm14:32
xiangfuwpwrak: I used the wrong value on ftg256 and csg324. the 484 is right. 14:33
wpwrak"occupied area" is 4.9 mm (squared, of course). so if outline == occupied area, yes, it should be a little larger. if outline == ideal location of package edges, the nominal or the max value would probably be best.14:34
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: bga: use the nominal size (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b3fcc7614:34
xiangfuwpwrak: ok. got it. have to sleep. 14:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv (setup): remove trailing whitespace from lines from bookshelf file (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/24160dd20:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: record source URL in dsv-* file; new option -u to show it (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/676c6a220:45
DocScrutinizer51could you share the 11W laser link of this morning please?22:36
DocScrutinizer51wpwrak: ping22:37
DocScrutinizer51sorry, mobile22:37
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you mean the one in vienna. looking for directions ? :) http://www.ebay.de/itm/LASER-11-WATT-Copper-Vapor-Laser-Kupferdampflaser-/14089742472023:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: TI TPS6216x series 3V-17V 1A Step-Down Converters (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/a841da723:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/dfn.fpd: DFN-8 (aka TI's WSON-8) package, for TPS6216x (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/694cebf23:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: title page: always generate title.ps when generating the catalog (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/21513c123:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: include common/Makefile after "all", so that it won't override the default (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/2e0747323:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/72b0c3123:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: a new error when pushing: ssh: Could not resolve hostname fidelio.qi-hardware.com: No address associated with hostname23:35
wpwrakfollowed by error: hooks/post-receive exited with error code 25523:35
wpwrakdoesn't seem to cause any harm, though (as far as i can tell)23:36
--- Sat Dec 22 201200:00

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