#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2012-11-30

--- Fri Nov 30 201200:00
xiangfuwej, what is the minimal pcb-via you have been made at home?02:15
xiangfuone layer is no enough for me. I have to jump to 2 layer soon. 02:16
wpwrak"wej" or "wpwrak" ? :)02:17
wpwrakmy small vias have an outer diameter of 30 mil (0.76 mm). i wouldn't make them much smaller, because you run into registration problems otherwise02:20
wpwrakregistration = location of layers with respect to each other. e.g., when you make the back layer, it'll be shifted a bit with respect to the font layer02:20
wpwrakwith vias that size, the errors are usually small enough - in a DIY process - that there's no problem you couldn't work around.02:21
wpwrakin an industrial process, you have better tolerances. you'd have to ask the fab what minimum via sizes they offer.02:22
wpwrakyou also have the choice between etching both sides of the PCB at once or in separate passes02:22
wpwrakboth sides at once saves time but yields large registration errors (typically up to about 0.5 mm). that's still fixable.02:24
wpwrakone side at a time is better. there, you can expect almost perfect results (0.1-0.2 mm). but it takes more time.02:24
xiangfu( (0.76 mm)) ok. in my kicad. I send it to 0.6mm02:26
xiangfu("wej" or "wpwrak" ? :)) wpwrak  :)02:27
xiangfuthe etching was very good on 0.6mm/0.3mm via. the problem is I am not sure I can drill that hole.02:27
xiangfu(one side at a time is better.) yes. 02:28
wpwrakyeah, drilling is messy. i'm VERY happy that my CNC mill does that for me. and it doesn't break drill bits, or almost never  :)02:28
wpwrak(one side at a time) what i do is this: i put the toner transfer paper on the table, then i drop the pcb on it, align it, and then fix it with adhesive tape on two sides. that gives very precise positions.02:29
wpwrakof course, my boards from the cnc mill already have exact geometry02:30
wpwrakin your case, you'd drill after the etching. so the first side will be perfect while the second side will be harder.02:30
wolfspraulbtw xiangfu is getting really good on a number of steps :-) I think he can solder bgas in his oven as well now02:30
wolfspraulit's too many details so I cannot follow everywhere, but slowly he turns into a little factory :-)02:31
wolfspraulthen it's time to outsource, I guess02:31
wpwrakkewl :) i'm still too scared about them. particularly their lack of debuggability.02:31
wolfspraulso drilling now02:31
wpwrakbtw, an interesting idea: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Crowdfunding-fuer-Hardware-Tueftler-1759255.html02:32
xiangfuwpwrak, (my boards from the cnc mill already have exact geometry) you drill the holes after etching both side right?02:32
wolfsprauloh crowdfunding is booming right now02:32
xiangfuwpwrak, I PLAN TO etching one side --> drill holes --> etching another side. 02:32
wolfspraulI see so many crazy projects being funded, it's nice02:33
wpwrakxiangfu: no, i first drill, then i cut the board, and then i do the toner transfer02:33
wolfspraulI fully expect >90% of them to fail entirely, but still good to see so many experiments funded02:33
xiangfuwpwrak, what kind of tools for cutting pcb?02:33
wpwrakxiangfu: so it's the just the reverse of a manual process02:33
wolfspraullet's hope it lasts and the donors/backers/hopeful will not wear out02:33
wpwrakxiangfu: the same CNC mill :)02:33
wolfspraulit's fun to see the inevitable "he are the reasons for our latest delay" dramas02:34
wolfspraulopenpandora is still chewing on their 2008 preorder list02:34
wolfspraulthere must have been several hundred dramas in between02:34
wolfsprauland now we have hundreds of openpandoras - yay!02:35
xiangfu(bgas in oven) yes. now I have thermometer and camera used when cook bga.  :) it gets much better.02:35
wpwrakperhaps we should get into crowdfunding, too. some project that's not too sexy to get stolen right away.02:35
wolfspraulthat may be a new way to educate people, since I don't believe that much in academia02:35
wolfspraulnow it's happening via kickstarter - cool!02:35
xiangfuwpwrak, CNC mill. great. 02:35
wolfspraulwell the problem is the promise-competition02:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: the real life school of hard knocks ;-)02:35
xiangfuwpwrak, I cut by hand. :(02:35
wolfspraulyou really have to over-promise big time, since everybody fails anyway02:35
wolfspraullike "reinvent the lightbulb"02:35
wolfspraulour 2 man team out of a garage can do what Philipps cannot...02:36
wpwrakxiangfu: i did that too. it's okay. just more work. and you never the get board geometry exactly right.02:36
wolfspraulnow you find someone who believes you, urgh02:36
wpwrakxiangfu: and of course, something like ubb or atben would be a pain (uSD card shape)02:36
wolfspraulI rather buy the meethue.com starter pack in my nearby apple temple... :-)02:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, it's the same everywhere. you have to look sexier than the rest to get chosen :)02:37
wolfspraulI see this growth of 'crowdfunding' really as a booster for education02:37
wolfspraulthere are hundreds and thousands of people that finally can go after the really fun experiments02:38
wpwrakUSD 1.3 M. cute.02:38
wolfspraulthat's enough for a few folks for a few years of drama02:38
wpwrakthat may be more than philips have for blue sky research projects :)02:38
wolfsprauland after that they are really good :-)02:38
wolfspraulhopefully they won't invest it in an extended carribean vacation right away though02:38
wolfspraulor even a little beach house there02:38
wpwrakyeah, that would suck02:39
wolfsprauldepends for whom02:39
wpwrakfor everyone but them02:39
wolfspraulI also see a number of ic-related experiments getting funded02:39
wpwrakit would also hurt future projects02:39
wolfspraullike parallela02:39
wolfspraulnot sure02:39
wolfspraulvcs also deal with 90% failure rates02:39
wolfspraulit's early for the whole crowdfunding thing02:40
wpwraktime to draw up the plans for your matter-antimatter chip :)02:40
wpwrak(failure) i think failure is okay. fraud isn't. makes people paranoid.02:40
wpwrakof couse, that moment will inevitably come02:40
wolfspraulhah, looking at the lifx team02:40
wolfspraul100% male of course :-)02:40
wolfspraullet the drama start! the 'backers' paid, now the show shall begin02:41
wpwrak(lifx) you're just envious :)02:41
wolfspraulI get that early om feeling again02:41
wolfspraulwe can take on the giants with 10 friends02:41
wolfspraulsure we can!02:41
wolfspraulI am sure they will be having lots of fun, and learn lots of things02:42
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: Enable support for multiple .desktop for one platform inside OPKs (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/efdf76602:42
wpwrakwell, every once in a while, someone succeeds with such crazy plans02:43
wolfspraullike I said, it's great to see this opening up now02:43
wolfspraulthis is one of the successful (successfully funded) ic projects http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adapteva/parallella-a-supercomputer-for-everyone02:44
wolfspraulsome play money to 'tape-out' stuff02:44
wolfspraulnice :-)02:44
wolfspraulthat's one thing I would still like to do, since all the rest I already did and feel good about02:45
wolfspraulrejon motivated me to buy a 100 USD sewing machine at ikea yesterday02:47
wolfspraulI will take it apart to see how much mechanical and electrical is inside, which will probably make it dysfunctional. oh well.02:47
wolfspraulwe had that "let's go to ikea" urge suddenly02:47
wolfspraulinteresting to see that ikea has a section now with sewing machine and selling garments etc02:48
wpwrak(make chips) sounds like fun. but i think you're onto something worth following with the fpga analysis.02:48
wolfspraulah yes, of course02:48
wolfspraulthis project toped (toped.org.uk) has a scripting language 'tell'02:49
wolfspraulthe name is all I know about it right now02:49
wolfspraulmaybe I can work on a fp2tell utility one day02:49
wolfspraulfp = fpga floorplan02:49
wolfspraulbut yes of course, I focus on the fpga and to bring out what is unique about that chip, the programmability etc.02:49
wolfspraulthis week I took a rest on fpgatools to cleanup some systems/servers/backup etc.02:50
wolfspraulalmost ready to jump back in02:50
wpwrakcreative break :)02:50
wpwrakthat, and a bottle of wine, often helps to get out of mental loops :)02:51
wolfsprauloh wow, I just notice that one of the two raid1 disks in the new buildhost is faulty and the server is limping along on one leg03:32
wolfspraulgood to find that before I move more stuff onto this server, so let's see how hetzner handles it and expect some (hopefully not too much) downtime on this machine...03:32
DocScrutinizer05wolfspraul: downtime? for raid1 recovery? hmm. I'd think there should be better ways depending on hw, and for sure Hetzner should be able to handle a hotswap06:10
DocScrutinizer05usually you migtht (not) notice some reduced performance during sync of the new HDD06:11
wolfspraulwell let's see06:21
wolfspraulI am waiting until the last backup finishes, then I file a support ticket :-)06:21
DocScrutinizer05how you're doing backup?06:24
wolfspraulyes good question06:35
wolfspraulI went through many iterations06:35
wolfspraulfrom a plain rsync 'through' the live rootfs06:35
wolfspraulnot really recoverable06:35
wolfspraulthen smarter ways with flushing and read-locking mysql, then lvm snapshots, then rsyncing those06:36
wolfsprauland now I am trying lxc instead of kvm, and the same mysql-read-lock+lvm snapshot on the entire lxc container including configuration06:36
wolfspraulso theoretically I think I could bring up the system on a new physical machine with a downtime not much more than my uploading time of the rootfs06:36
wolfspraulbut then I rarely/never test such recoveries, so it's more like a plan... :-)06:37
lekernel_wolfspraul: academia, for all its faults, have fewer issues like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1091976372/open-source-5-axis-cnc-router-and-plasma-machine-p vs. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joylabs/makey-makey-an-invention-kit-for-everyone08:25
lekernel_in other words: you can get research and development funded without having to get thousands of people to understand it and support it directly08:28
lekernel_you wouldn't get, say, the first laser diode funded on something like kickstarter08:30
wolfspraulI don't understand the point08:40
wolfspraulthere is no denying that kickstarter works, very well, and moves lots of money08:41
wolfspraulwhy should you be the judge on which project gets funded? :-)08:41
wolfspraulit's the backers...08:41
wolfspraulbanana piano - nice! :-)08:42
wolfsprauland it seems they shipped on time and as promised - awesome08:43
wpwraklekernel_: i think the main issues of that project are that 1) there are only very few people for whom it would be of immediate practical use, and 2) the number of people just willing to sponsor without expecting any specific return isn't very large08:45
rohthings need to be 'shut up and take my money'-concrete .. and you need to really invest money/time into that fscking video ;)08:47
rohso if your idea isnt something obvious and useable to the average viewer.. its hard.08:47
wpwrakthat's the deal, yes08:49
wpwrakafter all, you're expected to provide a list of items that come out of it. kickstarter also limit the scope of projects, possibly to avoid trying too many new things at once.08:50
rohwell.. lets see where circuits.io and similar bring us... i believe in the end one needs a business which works withoit such extreme pr to be successfull in the long run.08:50
rohwpwrak: kickstarter didnt like beer.. and europeans.. so my friend went somewhere else08:51
rohwpwrak: http://www.inkubato.com/de/projekte/bogkbier08:52
rohso.. well.. yes.. science can be funded. but you need to make it a bit mythbustery and give the people something to cheer about08:53
wolfspraulroh: nice links, I will check those. thanks!08:55
wolfspraul21,000 EUR for that beer!08:56
wpwrakthat's an expensive beer :)08:57
wolfspraulit's for the rescue!08:57
wolfspraulrescue missions are expensive08:57
rohi am a bit confused about this one08:59
rohdidnt philips just announce and ship something like that?08:59
rohwell.. i'll stay away from line voltage projects for now anyhow. too much certification stuff needed for overseas shipping09:01
lekernel_wolfspraul: so if some scientist wanted to invent the laser diode on kickstarter, he'd have to promise $10 laser pointers (and ship dozens of millions of units to make it down to that cost) and stay credible :-)09:03
rohwell.. we stay at producing stuff... got a new machine recently09:11
roha big cutting plotter... cutting foil up to something like 1800x800mm09:12
rohretrofit hp pen plotter eating hpgl09:12
wpwraklekernel: you could also offer a honorable mention on the project's web site for a little less :) (and maybe people who check that option can increase the amount they pay. not sure if kicstarter has that - i've been told that idea.me does)09:13
rohi dont think one can fund fundamental physics projects...09:16
wpwrakhmm, try pure mathematics for a proper challenge :)09:24
wpwrakthere's a nice joke about applied mathematics. alas, it only works in german: "es gibt die angewandte mathematik und die abgewandte mathematik"09:26
lekernelotoh math research is relatively inexpensive (unless you need supercomputers, and still)09:48
wpwrakif you use computers, it's not pure anymore :)09:49
wolfspraulroh: I'm starting my sewing machine learning. bought a 100 USD sewing machine at ikea and will take it apart10:16
wolfspraulinterestingly ikea has a new section with a sewing machine and fabric etc.10:16
wolfspraulmaybe that thingie has no electronics at all, just electro-mechanical? I shall find out :-)10:17
wolfspraulI mean no microcontroller etc.10:17
wpwrakdoes it have a display ?10:18
wolfspraulI don't think so (still in the box)10:18
wolfsprauleven if there is no serious electronics inside, it's a starting point for me10:19
wolfspraulI rather start with a 100 usd thingie before moving on to more expensive stuff10:19
wpwraktrying to draw your wife into hacking ? :)10:19
wolfspraulno no10:19
wolfsprauljon said "ikea is now selling sewing machines" and I said "let's buy one and take apart"10:20
wolfspraulthat's about it right now10:20
wpwrakinteresting reasoning :)10:21
wolfspraulroh: do you think circuits.io can get some tracking?10:25
wolfspraulseems they are just starting10:26
rohwolfspraul: i hope so10:33
rohwolfspraul: but i think it needs to grow up a bit... still only simple stuff there as far as i can see10:33
rohi wonder if there is a nicer word than 'tinkering' or 'hacking' for 'buying something readymade and reusing/abusing it by a documented pattern10:34
rohsince the result is then a combination of commercial, usually closed and some opensource technology/design.. maybe it needs its own word ;)10:35
wolfspraulnot sure highlighting the tech parts is a good idea, but it looks like a very clean project so let's see10:36
wolfspraulI don't need any of that stuff though :-)10:36
wolfspraulbogk-bier.de is impressive however10:36
lekernelthe setup reminds me a bit of http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/main.htm10:38
rohwolfspraul: :)10:42
rohlekernel: yeah.. just that its more an art than pure science10:43
rohin the end.. its a human who consumes it, not a machine.. so its not only purely scientific facts that count10:43
DocScrutinizer05lifx-bulb? haha, just seen that one at Conrad, basically12:17
DocScrutinizer05it seemed to have a 430MHz remote, replacing by WiFi probably is a weekend project12:17
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer05: they also want to do full color like meethue.com12:19
DocScrutinizer05ohwell, iPhone reinvented the wheel from beginning, I recall #openmoko laughing about iPhone "new innovative" capabilities like 5 years ago12:19
DocScrutinizer05full color?12:19
DocScrutinizer05like in RGB LED? That's exactly what that conrad lightbulb did, even looked exactly like the lifx one12:20
wolfspraulthe conrad one is maybe from Samsung?12:22
wolfspraulif Phillips has this then Samsung cannot be that far behind I would think, or even Osram? I don't know...12:23
wolfspraullifx will have a good time learning though, right? now that they got a 1.3m educational budget :-)12:23
DocScrutinizer05looked like samsung12:23
wolfspraulI'm happy for them...12:23
DocScrutinizer05though they rebranded it "Conrad"12:24
DocScrutinizer05WTF???? 1.3M for a weekend project????????12:24
larscwell production cost too12:26
DocScrutinizer05dang, for 0.3M I'll find a fsckng iPhone coder monkey. I'll do the swapping of 433MHz RX vs WiFi module on a weekend and have a nice travel to Taiwan for the remaining 1.0M12:26
larscwell and they only wanted 100k anyway12:29
DocScrutinizer05silly, 100k might not really last till end of your life12:33
DocScrutinizer05with 1M+ you must be a douchebag to not be able to live from interest12:36
DocScrutinizer05or is that italian lira or NTD or sth?12:37
wolfspraulit's a whole bunch of people and they probably believe the stuff they write on the project page, so they will go fight mighty Samsung/Phillips/Osram etc. now12:37
wolfsprauland "reinvent the lightbulb"12:37
wolfspraulat the end of which the 1.3M will be gone and they will all be a lot wiser :-)12:38
DocScrutinizer05LOL, that's a hoax, they even used the original product pictures12:38
wolfspraulmore power to them!12:38
wolfspraulyes I know, the use Samsung mechanical stuff which alone would probably cost >1M to pull off :-)12:38
DocScrutinizer05no need to figt anybody12:38
lekernel_DocScrutinizer05: so just do it, heh? ;)12:38
DocScrutinizer05seems they already did it12:39
wolfspraulanyway they will go reinvent now :-)12:39
wolfspraulhoax or not, let the drama start12:39
DocScrutinizer05I'm already thinking of some similarly silly idea12:39
wolfspraulat the very least they owe their backers 'updates' with ever more absurd things that are happening :-)12:39
DocScrutinizer05oh well12:40
wolfspraulat openpandora may favorite was the fedex truck which caught fire!12:40
wolfspraulloaded with a bunch of important openpandora parts and right before delivering them12:40
wolfspraulSO CLOSE!12:40
DocScrutinizer05didn't they offer a real product which donations basically prepaid?12:40
wolfspraullifx or openpandora? op is still "working" on the original 2008 predorders. with infinite dramas in between since then...12:41
DocScrutinizer05lifx that is12:41
wolfspraullifx no idea12:41
wolfspraulthat's just starting now, a new show12:41
DocScrutinizer05since conrad is asking an incredible 49EUR iirc12:41
wolfspraulthe lifx thingies are so expensive they may just resell existing ones12:41
DocScrutinizer05plus rework, you need to charge 150 per unit, to get (and stay) rich12:42
DocScrutinizer05prolly it's a fart app for 1.99 then12:43
DocScrutinizer05way less effort to do 'mass production'12:43
DocScrutinizer05bbl, damn med.Doc has 45min til weekend, and I'm short on a prescription12:45
viricI finally got a raspberry pi thing... they don't have much code in upstream kernel either12:54
viricand many blobs12:56
lekernelanyway, what are the devices you'd like to see? instead of those you don't want to see :)12:58
larscDocScrutinizer05: same but half the price http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/361131/Basetech-LED-RGB-mit-IR-Fernbedienung-E27-37W-Globeform/?ref=detview1&rtl=reco_detail_top&rb=113:03
viriclekernel: is the question for me?13:05
viriclekernel: in fact I'm happy with the sheevaplug kind of devices. They had some bad designs (power supplies burning up, requirement of moving mechanical parts, ...), but I think it's a good line.13:07
viricI haven't bought the pi for me; but a 512MB device is very nice, because it can natively build most things. No cross building required.13:08
rohDocScrutinizer05: maybe something like http://electricimp.com/ is the right thing for such an app13:17
viricit'd be great if the nanonote could build itself the software it runs13:37
viricthat can be done 1) changing the nanonote or 2) changing the software ;)13:44
kristianpaulsoftware :-)13:44
viricI've just tested... the raspberry pi runs at half the speed of the sheevaplug.13:45
viricI didn't expect a difference so big.13:45
kristianpaulhow is that relate to self boostraping nanonote? i got lost..13:46
viricI'm changing topics.13:46
kristianpaulsoftware boostrasping*13:46
viricBefore, I said that the sheevaplug can build its software just fine, with 512MiB of RAM, while the nanonote cannot.13:47
viricI could say something similar for the raspberry pi, if it had all the source for what it runs :)13:47
kristianpaulso basically the problem is ram, cause no matter how slow cpu is it will end someday  or week.. ;-)13:48
kristianpaulyou could use swap !13:48
kristianpauli read gentoo for yeeloong was build using 4Gb of swap and several days13:48
viricif something can run prboom, it should be able to build itself :)13:48
kristianpaulhaah i ran it. like two years ago13:49
virickristianpaul: I build NixOS just fine natively, in a fuloong minipc (1GB of RAM)13:49
kristianpaulwas a binary hanging on somewhere..13:49
virickristianpaul: prboom is what I use most in my nanonote :)13:49
kristianpaulviric: and NixOS for nanonote :-) ?13:49
viricNixOS can only be natively built, now.13:50
viricbut 'nanonixos' can be cross-built.13:50
kristianpaulcan, why?13:50
viricSo, there is NixOS for the sheevaplug, for the fuloong, but not for the nanonote.13:50
viric"can, why?"13:50
kristianpauli mean sounds good, but sounds like an enforcements somwhere..13:50
viricwhat sounds good?13:50
kristianpaulcan only be natively built13:51
viricno, that sounds bad. :)13:51
viricit'd be better if it could be cross built :)13:51
kristianpauli dont like cross buitl :P13:51
kristianpaulbecus the bootstrap thing..13:51
kristianpaulnut ignore me :-)13:52
viricwell, I mean having the possibility. NixOS can't be natively built in the nanonote because it hasn't enough ram.13:52
viriconly that.13:52
kristianpauland why not use swap? whats the deal?13:52
viricwell. swap and memory are quite different :)13:52
larscuse the cloud13:52
viricI hope you understand 'the deal'13:52
kristianpauli try not thing about it ;)13:53
viriclarsc: modprobe cloudmemory mem=4G13:53
viricor modprobe cloudcpu ncpu=1614:02
paul_boddieI never really looked at the Dingoo stuff until surfing Wikipedia recently, although I guess that a bunch of people develop for it here. Isn't the Dingoo very similar to the NanoNote in terms of hardware?14:22
virican ingenic soc14:25
paul_boddieThe "hardware evolution" of those products seems to be modest, and perhaps related to the development schedule of the SoC family, but I saw that the A380 has 64GB instead of 32GB RAM.14:25
paul_boddieHas the product that the NanoNote was based on evolved similarly? Did anyone keep track of that?14:25
DocScrutinizer05larsc: half the price and almost half the power14:31
DocScrutinizer05but actually I meant that one14:32
DocScrutinizer0564GB *RAM*??14:40
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a big iron rather than something palmtop14:40
DocScrutinizer05well, googling for A380 will probably yield the right hits ;-P14:41
larsci guess he meant MB14:44
paul_boddieOops, was writing a mail talking about disk space and my brain froze on the wrong units. :-)14:55
paul_boddieYes, 64MB versus 32MB.14:55
DocScrutinizer05friggin bad timing: sailfish announces partnership with ST-E for getting NovaThor, just when I left the company14:55
DocScrutinizer05two months ago I could've looked up all the internals of that Thorium modem14:57
DocScrutinizer05now only a few cloudy memories are left over14:57
paul_boddieI guess the http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/AVT2_RC2_Reference_Board was tracking developments initially, but the effort stalled.15:10
paul_boddieI guess I should note some of the old discussions from the mailing list down on the Wiki somewhere. For example, http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-January/001588.html covers the SAKC board and even touches on OpenRISC. And http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-January/001593.html covers the AVT2 board.15:34
paul_boddieI met some of the OpenRISC guys at FSCONS and they're still doing stuff.15:44
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: why did you left?16:10
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: left what?16:11
whitequarkyeah, ST-E16:11
DocScrutinizer05they had a hard time and set all external contractors free16:12
DocScrutinizer05actually scratch that with 'hard time' since I don't know the reasons16:13
whitequarkhm. reminds me how TI got out of mobile.16:13
larscI was at Ericcson a couple of weeks ago to give a presentation, a day before that they announced that they would let go 10%, in the end only 3 people showed up at the presentation...16:17
paul_boddieI also met some Ericsson people at FSCONS. Hello to them if they're reading!16:21
wpwraklarsc: at least they didn't blame you :)16:39
--- Sat Dec 1 201200:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!