#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2012-11-27

wolfspraulok it looks like the move from the old buildhost was successful, I am now shutting down the old machine00:19
wpwrakyeah, the schematis histories look good00:19
wolfsprauland if there are no hickups, I will cancel/return the contract in a few hours00:19
wolfspraulyes, and without kernel randomizer fix even :-)00:19
wpwrakamazing :)00:20
wpwrakwhat did we need it for in the first place ?00:20
wolfspraulI need to look into upleveling the patches again at some point, though there is no urgency right now00:20
wolfspraulghost diffs00:20
wolfspraulmy notes beat your brain! :-)00:20
wolfspraulthere were ghost diffs that you sort-of traced back to an uninitialized variable inside eeschema somewhere...00:21
wpwrakoh :) must be old age rotting my wetware ...00:21
wolfspraulhas anyone worked with an nfc chip?02:46
wolfspraulroh: do you know a cheap nfc chip?02:47
wolfspraulI am wondering whether I can hookup one to my slx9 fpga...02:47
wpwrakspecifically for nfc or just for some sort of wireless communication ? if it's the latter case, why not use wpan ? to keep things simple, you can even just add a uSD socket and plug an atben into it.02:54
kristianpaulwhy not bluetooth? ;-)02:58
kristianpaulmost phone have bluetooth haha02:58
kristianpaulok sorry02:58
kristianpaulbut nfc still been intrododuced right02:58
kristianpaulsounds interesting at least i hope can do what IR never could.. well :-)02:59
wolfspraulI was thinking about something that can have a phone on the other side, so wpan won't work03:00
wolfsprauland just learning about nfc03:00
wpwrakah yes, then things get more complicated03:00
kristianpaulwifi :-)03:03
kristianpaulroh: pointed some small wifi boards i remenber03:03
wolfspraulmy question was about nfc03:09
kristianpaulwolfspraul: what phones are your target? all nfc then?03:10
faminekristianpaul, yea NFC is standard on all newer samsungs03:11
wolfspraulno specific target right now03:11
kristianpaulto get some ideas..03:26
kristianpaulbut something very portable tought03:26
kristianpaulnot very*03:27
wolfspraulinteresting. so they use an NXP PN532 chip03:34
wolfspraulwhat's supported by libnfc.org... ? (checking)03:34
wolfspraulseems those pn53x all are03:44
wolfspraulmy god :-) 10 USD in single-quantities on digikey, and 5.xx USD even for trays/reels of several thousand03:45
wolfspraulI am a little spoiled here, this is not even an option looking into further as I would expect maybe 1 USD or so :-)03:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, in case you updates piwik recently: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Hintertuer-in-Traffic-Analyse-Software-Piwik-1757145.html09:13
wolfspraulhe :-)09:14
wolfspraulpiwik is on my list of things I would like to remove :-)09:14
wpwrakhow come ?09:14
wolfspraulno need, maintenance overhead, etc.09:14
wolfspraulprecisely the thing you are pointing to...09:15
wpwrakah. yeah, each little piece adds a bit of weight09:15
larscwolfspraul: do you use builtbot or something else for the automated builds?09:34
viricdid you know that some companies erase the chip writings, and relabel them as they wish, before soldering into boards?09:52
viricI didn't know it was a common practice09:52
wolfspraullarsc: have to ask xiangfu09:54
xiangfularsc, buildbot. no. just a script file 10:33
larscxiangfu: ok thanks11:39
rohwolfspraul: nope.. nfc is boring and useless.. nobody uses it... kinda like zigbee11:41
rohlots of talk. basically zero serious applications, extremely bad support11:42
wpwrakgood that you said "zigbee" and not "ieee 802.15.4" :)11:43
wpwrakand i'd agree on your view of nfc. they all seem to get excited mainly about this being the next form of payment. but then, the existing means are efficient enough. as an added bonus, most people trust them. now, compare this to a computer that's vulnerable to viri and so on ...11:45
rohwpwrak: sorry.. but people who are stupid enough to put money on android phones.. dont need nfc to get robbed.11:45
wpwrakbut of course, the prospect of being able to get a foot in the money flow may just be too irresistible ...11:46
rohalso its more than idiotic to use something rf for that when you are there already.11:46
wpwrakwell, there are some advanteges in having a completely contact-free technology. but then, given the circumstances ...11:47
rohso i hope that gets handled similar to CC in serious business...11:47
roheither cash or electronic cash (with chip and pin).. but if you accept a CC its more expensive, has a minimum transaction value etc.11:48
wpwrakcredit cards are very well received by serious business11:49
wpwraksome places put a surcharge on their use, but most don't11:49
xiangfuwhat about bluetooth ? I bought some bluetooth serial modular. for my mini-slx9 board talk to nowaday device, (android etc)11:50
rohwpwrak: well.. cc usually mean 'more cost due to fraud'. so its only fair accepting them only for a surcharge.11:51
xiangfuI bought there are a looot of bluetooth profiles.11:51
wpwrakchip and pin still isn't universal. e.g., around here, you only have the magnet strip. a while ago, visa were foolish enough to ask for the chip. this caused retailers to fall back to fully manual entry. they dropped the charade within a few days.11:51
wpwrakxiangfu: BT = complexity = job security ;-)11:52
rohwpwrak: atleast thats what businesses here do which i know. for one the broker access iss seriously expensive, and for the second you got no gurantee that you got your money. even if somebody was there physicly11:52
rohi know that its different in europe to other places. but here i dont need a cc and i dont want one. simply too broken system (which makes it expensive)11:53
wpwrakroh: i know that localized solutions are popular in germany, simply because the local market is fairly large. but on an international scale, there's no way around credit cards (or paypal, if you must)11:53
wpwraki think the cc system is great11:54
rohwpwrak: its nothing special. just chip and pin by force. the magstripe is unused nowadays11:54
wpwrakit puts the burden of keeping things safe on the companies, not on the customer11:54
wolfsprauloh well, not much nfc experience then I guess11:54
rohwpwrak: why? it allows fraud and thus makes stuff more expensive for us, the customers. thats a bad system11:54
rohchip/pin basically moves that all to the banks. not the customer, not the retailer.11:55
wpwrakfraud can be countered. it's not only a question of keeping the act of paying safe but also of tracking down the criminals11:55
wolfspraulto me it looks like nfc may have a breakthrough in the next few years11:55
wpwrakmake it decades or perhaps centuries and i may agree :)11:55
rohwolfspraul: i dont think so.. maybe for getting robbed11:57
wpwrakroh: chip&pin hase its issues. one is global acceptance. another is that it's "too safe". so if there is an invalid transaction, the client gets screwed because it's "impossible" for a criminal to break the system. and we all know that IT is like a swiss cheese.11:57
rohwpwrak: as long as there is a customer or retailer the bank can blame, nothing will change.11:57
wpwrakroh: see, that's the beauty of credit cards: everyone knows they're insecure. so the customer gets great protection. meanwhile, the companies have a massive incentive to do something about cutting down fraud.11:58
rohand since the bank is much more powerful, there needs to be a generic bias to make it work at all.11:59
rohwpwrak: well.. thats why retailers around here dont take CC. THEY are the ones who loose.11:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think nfs is one of those solutions waiting for a problem. if you can provide one, nfc may be the success of your lifetime. else, join the crowd already in the tar pit :)12:01
rohmy point isnt that the system is shit. its that the wrong ones pay for its brokenness.. the customer. that is why i find it very ok and right that there are retailers who ALSO take CC, but add a atleast 10E per invoice surcharge for CC use.12:01
rohwpwrak: and which of those problems wasnt already solved by atleast 2 different widely popular rf standards?12:02
wpwrakroh: not even big chains ? even in argentina, the major supermarkets accept credit cards without a fuss. smaller shops don't (because they lack the terminals) or add a surcharge.12:02
wolfspraullet's just look at facts. what chips are available12:02
wolfspraulwhat devices support them, what payment systems/networks or in general 'vendors' accept them12:02
wolfspraulwho puts marketing money behind them12:03
wolfsprauletc. etc.12:03
rohwpwrak: no.  for one: every person with a bank account HAS a chip for years now, and second.. what interrest whould a retailer have?12:03
wolfsprauland it's a big world, if Asia leads on this (which I don't even think), then that alone will drive tech whether Europe gets it now or a few years later :-)12:03
rohi mean.. chip and pin is beep, type, ok, done.. 5sec.12:03
wolfspraulpeople here love to swipe some card at 7-11 etc12:03
rohwhy do something like card and autograph when it takes more time?12:03
wpwrakroh: here it's sweep, beep, error code ;-)12:04
wpwrakroh: they they go searching for someone who knows how to work around it (by falling back to some archaic protocol)12:04
wolfspraulI just noticed apple added nfc in the iphone5, that's a good indicator to take a closer look12:04
rohor rather.. why accept a system which blames you the retailer while being obviously badly designed by a bank12:04
wolfspraulthey get it wrong sometimes, but less so than other tech corps12:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: steve jobs is dead. thus so are the visions, it seems. don't look for leadersthip there.12:05
wolfspraulalright then. but I try to understand nfc :-)12:05
wpwrakhehe :)12:05
wolfspraulwill pay more attention, first step is to find more chips12:05
wolfspraulif I can't find cheap chips, it will stop right there for me12:06
rohi really like cash to be fair. much more complicated to loose12:07
rohwpwrak: btw.. even with a chip and pin card you usually have a minimum turnover in most stores.12:08
rohwpwrak: because regardless of which card/system one uses.. its all more people involved who want their cut on that transaction12:08
rohwolfspraul: nfc is the new irda12:11
wolfspraulwell let's see12:11
rohsimilar range and applications12:11
wolfspraulI think the dimensions are totally different nowadays, nfc may be in the hands of 2 billion people when irda probably never went above even 10 million12:12
wolfspraulI am not pushing nfc in any way, I don't care about the tech12:12
rohi've seen people use it to transfer a vcard once... 2 samsung phones back to back.... why they didnt just send the file via jabber which they use to chat all day long via 3g.. i dont know *g*12:12
wolfspraulI am just looking at the environment and see things are happening, wonder whether I can make use of it, and done :-)12:12
wolfspraulI was asking about nfc chips, will do some more research12:13
rohwolfspraul: no. nfc is in <1% of the highest end smartphones which less than 1 in 6 persons on this earth owns12:13
rohwhich makes it way worse available than something like paypal. i rather think they will be the new money than nfc12:14
wpwrakroh: (cut) yeah. the terminal itself has a cost. often, after that, the differences are minor.12:14
rohwpwrak: the terminal is rented. from a company doing the service, which then has contracts with banks...12:14
rohand you only rent via your bank from that company.. so its atleast 2 or 3 parties extra on YOUR side, not involving the cc company of the holder yet ;)12:15
rohyes its stupid...  but well.. its banks and similar ones12:15
rohwpwrak: for the congress we always have that issue. so we got some of these terminals and or an online broker12:16
rohwpwrak: bottomline.. its REALLY expensive.. hundredts of euros per month extra only for getting access (no transactions yet)12:16
rohthus we add those to the CC prices.12:16
wolfspraulactually I may have been wrong about the iphone5 and nfc - not sure whether it has is or not... for completeness12:18
wpwrakroh: bah, considering the money you're moving that's nothing :)12:24
rohwpwrak: there is also a per transaction fee i think. well. its still not fair to ask people not using a broken system to pay for it. so its only the CC users.12:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: perhaps the lack of BT security is not a problem if think is a free on the air protocol :-)13:38
kristianpaulbut this had been long been shiped in phones13:38
kristianpaulmy old se have BT and irda ;)13:38
xiangfukristianpaul, any advices on bluetooth chip/modular/profiles? 13:47
xiangfuI want it direct communicate with nowaday mobile device. 13:47
xiangfuthere are quiet a lot of bluetooth profiles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_profile)13:50
kristianpaulyeah thats a problem..13:52
kristianpaulusually require an app13:54
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: Renamed 'dingux' platform to 'a320' (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/6629a6315:31
wpwrakaha. got an interesting question: how many hours does the regular work week in chinese fab (electronics) have, before overtime ?23:24
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