#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2012-11-23

wolfspraulkristianpaul: it will be difficult to practically help him00:05
wolfsprauldoes he speak chinese? how long is he here? does he just want to buy the slx9 or other things as well?00:05
wolfspraulcan he navigate in beijing by himself?00:06
wolfspraulbeijing is huge an inefficient, if you are new basically every little thing you want to do outside takes you a full day. after some time (even for Chinese), you can bring it down to "a few hours"00:06
wolfspraulmost people will try to stay where they are and let courier services deliver stuff to them :-) but for that you need fluent Chinese to direct people on the phone about what to do...00:07
wolfspraulI can try to help but also a little hesitating to spend a whole day traveling around to help a foreigner buy a 10 USD chip :-)00:07
kristianpaulnope chinesee.. not that i know00:11
kristianpaulhe ask me if i need something00:11
kristianpauli said slx9 ;)00:12
kristianpaulto be honest i dont bet he would do it, but i have to give him the information 00:12
kristianpauldont help i'm betting him :D00:13
kristianpaulhe will be another days i think 4 00:13
kristianpauland i guess want buy other stuff out of my concern00:13
kristianpaul huge an inefficient, :-/00:14
kristianpaulwolfspraul: no please dont help ;)00:14
wolfspraulhe can buy the slx9 off-the-shelf in a little booth not more than 100m from a subway exit00:14
wpwrakhuge and inefficient, like any well-run bureaucracy :)00:15
kristianpaulwpwrak: ;)00:15
wolfspraulBUT... which booth? which subway station and exit. and still need to make it through a gazillion of other confusing signs booths people etc.00:15
wolfspraulthere must be hundreds of places selling those in beijing, but tracking one down specifically requires some knowledge of locality. in china you would just use qq or phone/instant messaging, then track down the source or have them send to you (much easier)00:16
kristianpaulhe is bit far looking at the map for chanpeig, beijing..00:16
wolfspraulas I said - everything is far :-)00:16
wolfspraulnot just he00:16
kristianpaulhe traveld to visit some indutrial parks00:16
kristianpaulparks may not be right word..00:16
kristianpaulqq :)00:17
wolfspraulmaybe inefficient is the wrong word. most people would have stuff delivered to them00:17
kristianpaulxiangfu gave some some data perhaps he could call it if know chinesse..00:17
wolfspraulthen you don't care how inefficient it is, because some poor guy will freeze off his fingers delivering the goods to you for 1-2 USD00:17
kristianpaulcall the shop!00:17
kristianpaulnot xianfgu =)00:18
wolfspraulyes exactly00:18
wolfspraulcall, order, deliver00:18
wolfspraulbut - how to pay? how to talk on the phone?00:18
wpwrakah, it's winter over there :)00:18
wolfspraulchinese can pay from their phone in seconds, but a foreigner without cards/accounts/banks/etc will have trouble with those things00:18
kristianpaulah good point00:18
kristianpaulhum hum00:18
kristianpaulhow do you pay?00:18
kristianpaulphone? ;D00:18
kristianpauli dont bet :)00:18
wolfspraulI keep myself out of those things00:19
kristianpaulanyway he just wanted to advertise me his recent travel00:19
wolfspraulbut ok if I would have to I would set it up, as it's the only way to get things done fast00:20
kristianpaulso i ask for that.. lets see how it results 00:20
kristianpaulha if i could call and speak chinesse ;)00:21
kristianpaulanyway, hi !00:21
kristianpauldid you looked and J1 forth cpu btw?00:21
wolfspraulyes sure00:22
wolfspraulthat was a great pdf link00:22
kristianpaulif you add clock support and bram basically thats the shortest path to a working cpu i guess you tought that time ago :)00:22
kristianpaulgreat as in...00:22
wolfspraul'look' may be too much though, I just skimp over it and mentally file somewhere00:22
kristianpaulgood reading or soemthing else00:22
wolfspraulwell one by one00:22
wolfspraulI'm working towards the blinking led, right?00:22
kristianpaulshift register i remember?00:22
kristianpaulthis version00:22
wolfspraulblinking led is not using a shift register00:23
wolfspraulbut yes, those are missing too, same as tons of other things00:23
wolfspraulI had to do some more groundwork in recent weeks00:23
wolfspraultoo bad, but ok, hopefully it will help in the long run00:23
kristianpaulbut i will? (shift reg or any other eq counter implementation? )00:24
wolfspraulyou mean whether I will support it?00:24
wolfspraulof course, absolutely00:24
wolfspraulI want to support all of the chip's features00:24
wolfsprauland shift registers are quite high on the list00:24
wolfspraulbut first the basic luts and clocks00:24
wolfspraulthen bram, shift regs, jtag, spi, macc00:24
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what do you like about the j1 cpu?00:30
wolfspraulany specific plans?00:30
kristianpaullearn forth ;)00:32
kristianpaulno more plans00:32
kristianpauli like things with single porpused00:32
kristianpaulwell i used to that when programing microcontrollers...00:32
kristianpauli like the most i dont need a fancy compiler00:33
kristianpaulis small and simpler00:33
kristianpauland the closest thing i see you can implement with fpgatools :)00:34
wolfspraulok but sounds like you are mostly wishing those things00:34
wolfspraulhow can we bring it into reality?00:34
kristianpaulthe fpgatools part yes00:34
wolfspraulone thing about forth seems to be that they are quite good at articulating something people may want00:34
kristianpaulthe learning part i could, but yes for now is just a wishlit00:34
wolfspraulbut where is the actual realization?00:34
wolfspraul"don't need a fancy compiler"00:34
wolfspraulsounds great00:35
wolfspraulbut show me something that actually runs00:35
wolfspraulmaybe then it doesn't sound so great anymore that "you don't need a fancy compiler"?00:35
wolfspraulyes so that all reads well to me, but I want to make it run and do something - not just some fancy words00:35
kristianpauli know what you mean...00:36
wolfspraulI want a computer that reads my mind and does what I want it to do00:36
wolfspraulthen I only need one command "do"00:37
wolfspraulwouldn't that be cool?00:37
wolfspraulI should write a paper about it...00:37
Last message repeated 1 time(s).00:37
wolfspraulit's also perfect for kids00:37
wolfsprauloh wait, kids mostly say "give me" or "I want"00:37
kristianpaulokay to much coffe :) got it!00:37
wolfspraulnah I like the paper, but I want to know how to make it work00:38
wolfspraulso let's make it real, and if nothing real I will dump it :-)00:38
wolfspraulcoffee yes, back to fpga switches... :-)00:39
wpwrakwriting compilers isn't all THAT hard. plus, who cares if it's fancy if it runs on a PC ?12:51
wpwrak(writing compilers) that is, for a reasonably simple language. of course, if you want to beat gcc or llvm, there'll be some work involved12:54
larscwriting _good_ compilers on the other hand is a different story12:54
wpwrakyeah. but a simple one that lets you write code that blinks a led while a button is pressed or such things, and that doesn't have to be particularly efficient, would be quite simple.12:57
larscI'm currently taking the coursera compiler class, it's quite good imo12:58
larscneed to write the semantic checker tonight12:59
wpwrakwirth's book on compiler design covers one such language quite nicely. i read the pascal-ish one. this seems to be an updated version: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf&sa=U&ei=4HKvUKPRM46F0QHuuICAAg&ved=0CBUQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxDramddD3bwOYKYZmBKDggAp34A12:59
Action: wpwrak hates google's uncopyable search results13:00
wpwrakwith 131 pages it's a refreshing difference from the other tomes usually sized like epic fantasy novels13:01
wpwrakoh, and with yacc at your disposition, you get operator precedence basically for free. yet another one of the scary bits someone else is taking care of for you.13:02
wpwraki think the old one is "compilerbau". 118 pages :)13:06
viricwpwrak: I also hate them (search results)13:22
viricwith a pdf, it gets specially annoying13:22
viricbut I think they overcome that with javascript tricks, if you had javascript enabled :)13:22
wpwrakjavascript is on, of course. there's very little that works without it :-(13:32
GNUtoo-desktopwpwrak, maybe use duck duck go then?13:32
wpwrakthat's an option, yes13:33
viricah ok13:33
viricduckduckgo uses bing13:33
GNUtoo-desktopit uses many things13:34
viricuse seeks13:34
GNUtoo-desktopit probably uses a combinaison of bing, google, yahoo and its own stuff13:34
viricI'd say it uses bing, and only some times, it gives a special big link of its own cook13:35
Action: GNUtoo-desktop doesn't understand why what backend it uses is important13:36
viricI thought wpwrak meant *google*13:38
viricseeks will use google.13:39
mthwpwrak: how does that work? (yacc doing operator precendence for you)15:09
mthI've always coded compilers by hand, but operator precendence is determined by how you write your grammar, not by how you code it15:09
mthI thought yacc takes something akin to EBNF as input; if so the operator precedence should be already determined in the input15:10
larscyou tell yacc the precendence order and it will take care of it15:10
mthit has a more high-level input format that?15:10
wpwraklarsc: that's the dirty way15:11
wpwrakmth: and yes, what i mean is the grammar15:11
larscwell you use the precendence order to resolve ambiguities in your grammar15:12
wpwraklarsc: you mean in your sloppy grammar :)15:12
larsckeeps the grammar much simpler15:13
wpwrakmth: e.g., a recursive-descent parser can't do proper operator precedence (without adding extra twists)15:13
mthyou only need a look ahead of one symbol to be able to do it15:14
wpwraklarsc:  you have to think a little harder. but that's often a good thing :)15:14
larscwpwrak: I need to do the transformations that yacc does for me by hand15:14
larscmth: the grammar also has to have other certain properties15:15
wpwraklarsc: and by doing this, you purge your grammar from "magic". makes it easier to resolve conflicts you'll run into later.15:16
larscI belive in magic ;)15:16
mthlarsc: yes, but it is implementable with a recursive descent parser with a lookahead of just one, if your grammar satisfies those properties15:17
wpwrakthat one's the bad kind :)15:17
mthmagic is great if it works, but as soon as it breaks down you'll be wishing you'd be dealing with something simpler15:18
larsciirc, you use the lookahead to resolve shift-reduce-conflicts15:18
larscif your grammar does not have any you can also use a parser with 0 lookahead15:18
mthit's been a while since I did compiler theory, but doesn't 0 lookahead put you somewhere on the level of regular expressions?15:20
mthor maybe not even that, just a finite state machine15:22
larscyou have a stack don't you?15:22
mthwhat does lookahead 0 mean anyway? I guess that once you see the symbol you have to immediately consume it (no peek operation)15:24
larsciirc with lookahead of one you look at the next terminal symbol and based on that decide how to handle your current symbol15:31
larscwith lookahead of zero you don't look at the next terminal, but just use your current symbol15:31
mthby that definition you can even do operator precedence with a lookahead of 016:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: you like tiny boards, check this http://keithp.com/blogs/MicroPeak/23:51
wpwrakthey;re wasting a lot of space23:54
kristianpaulcheck backwards the battery socket23:55
wpwrakyup. with the through-hole variant, the board could be smaller23:55
wpwrakby some 4 mm23:55
kristianpaulahm yes23:57
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