#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2012-11-12

kristianpaulall embedded http://www.forth.org/svfig/kk/11-2010-Bowman.pdf00:22
kristianpaulseems J1 forth is cool for solving those problems with less verilog and fancy hihg level optimization00:23
zrafahow are you qiers?15:03
zrafaOne comment/question: some of you tried to build an openrwrt rootfs and then to replace some android rootfs (in a phone or tablet) with the openwrt rootfs built?15:06
wpwrakzrafa: the qi-world is quite silent these days ...15:12
zrafawpwrak: hi!! :)15:13
zrafawpwrak: I will do some noise to not let you sleep :)15:13
wpwrakhmm, android kernel with openwrt rootfs. i guess that would depend a lot on how android distributes things between initramfs and rootfs.15:14
zrafawhich would help for statitistics as well15:14
wpwrakyeah ;-)15:14
zrafawpwrak: yes. Some guy showed me here at uni15:14
zrafawpwrak: a samsung phone with android, and he said me that he is able to replace kernel only, or android rootfs with another android rootfs, etc15:15
zrafawpwrak: Then I checked a bit the old android version for freerunner15:15
zrafaand I saw init at least in the android rootfs. Then I was guessing that maybe15:15
zrafacurrent android phones boot kernel, then mount and run init15:16
zrafaand then android sdk is ran from there.15:16
wpwrakif there is cyanogenmod for your device, that may make things easier. at least i suppose they have full sources for most of the kernel.15:16
zrafawpwrak: So I was asking me if openwrt/openembedded/whatever could be used15:16
zrafaas rootfs on those phones/tablets15:16
zrafawithout to touch kernel part if the kernel part is not distribuited 15:17
zrafa(so we do not break everything with out a rescue :P )15:17
zrafawpwrak: what is cyanongenmod :)15:18
kristianpaulhi rafa15:18
wpwrakcyanogenmod the "free" android for some android devices15:18
kristianpaul"free" indeed...15:19
wpwraki think cyanogenmod should give you more control over the kernel than you'd have by using a fully closed vendor binary15:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, still with nasty binary-only drivers15:19
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: let's say, with a chain as long as you can get with android :)15:20
wpwrakoh, user space is a different matter.15:20
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: libraries as well?15:21
kristianpaultought was just kernel drivers15:21
GNUtoo-desktoplet me explain15:21
wpwrakof course, some hardware bits may need (closed) user space drivers, which would involve also user space directly in hw support15:21
kristianpaulgo ahead15:21
GNUtoo-desktopyou're interested only in cyanogenmod or in all cases?15:22
GNUtoo-desktopbecause I've a presentation here:15:22
GNUtoo-desktopgit clone git://gitorious.org/replicant/advocacy.git15:22
GNUtoo-desktopthere are some schematics15:22
GNUtoo-desktoplet's follow it together15:22
GNUtoo-desktopafter everyone interested downloaded it15:23
GNUtoo-desktopReplicant_en.odp is the interesting one15:23
GNUtoo-desktopfirst schematics is Modem<->CPU15:23
GNUtoo-desktopmodem is red because the code inside it is proprietary15:24
GNUtoo-desktopthen "Problem Average Joe USer": what's in red is proprietary and what's in greed is free15:24
GNUtoo-desktopNote that firmwares are not taken in account here15:24
wpwrak#18 ?15:25
GNUtoo-desktop#18 is a tipical qualcomm phone15:25
wpwrak#5 then ?15:25
GNUtoo-desktop#10 is cyanogenmod: it's in yellow because it's half-free15:25
GNUtoo-desktop#11 is a zoom on #10's cyanogenmod15:25
GNUtoo-desktopwpwrak, in 5 I meant that CPU could be freed15:26
wpwrakaren't there also some binary-only drivers in the cyg kernel ?15:26
GNUtoo-desktopnot in my devices15:26
Action: kristianpaul installs openoffice15:26
GNUtoo-desktopin some other devices  probably15:26
wpwrak(cpu free) yup. and modems are always a mess. certain other things (wlan, gps, etc.) often enough as well.15:27
kristianpauloh gps yeah..15:27
kristianpauland wlan well should be similar...15:27
kristianpaulactually gps could be considered as a soc inside a soc15:28
GNUtoo-desktopbut modem has access to the network15:28
GNUtoo-desktopand is most of the time evil15:28
kristianpaulwith embdded firmware15:28
GNUtoo-desktopI'm simplifying for explaining it to people that are not as knowledgable than you15:29
kristianpaulsure sure15:29
wpwraki guess they dragged zrafa off to lunch15:30
kristianpaulso it worth the effort GNUtoo-desktop ?15:31
kristianpaulsince there are so many devices.... 15:31
GNUtoo-desktopyes it is15:31
xiangfuwpwrak, ( the qi-world is quite silent these days ...) silent is good for working hours. :-)15:31
kristianpaulsee like osmocom commented some plans to build its own modem15:31
kristianpaulxiangfu: oh hi :-)15:32
GNUtoo-desktopmany people wants replicant to succeed15:32
GNUtoo-desktopincluding RMS and eben moglen15:32
xiangfubtw: I added a fped screenshot at here: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/electronics/fped15:32
xiangfukristianpaul, Hi. good evening.15:32
GNUtoo-desktopkristianpaul, the thing is that we can't target all phones, but we can free some good ones15:33
GNUtoo-desktopso people buy a phone compatible with replicant15:33
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance here in europe, the galaxy S is cheap (90E second hand)15:33
Action: kristianpaul have a galaxy ace15:34
kristianpaulactually downloaded some source from samsung... yday15:34
GNUtoo-desktopkristianpaul, that's not compatible unfortunately....unless you do the port15:34
kristianpaulyeah ... :-/15:34
kristianpaulwas cheapo here15:34
wpwrakxiangfu: nice. make people feel the power ;-)15:34
kristianpauli did the surbey :)15:34
GNUtoo-desktopunfortunately the first galaxy ace is qualcomm15:34
kristianpaulhum hum15:35
kristianpaulso even you free the phone still the network15:35
kristianpaulremenber in the USA carriers not leting openmokos to be used?15:36
GNUtoo-desktopthere are several degrees of freedom yes15:36
Action: xiangfu document the home-made-pcb here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Mini-slx9. 15:36
GNUtoo-desktopbut having the maximum freedom is very important15:36
GNUtoo-desktopI mean the maximum possible15:36
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance with qualcomm the mic is attached to the modem 15:36
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: yup. it's definitely a step in the right direction15:37
GNUtoo-desktopwhich makes listennign you when you're not calling possible15:37
wpwrakand having to be selective when it comes to buying hardware isn't anything new15:37
GNUtoo-desktoptry to do that with an openmoko.....15:37
kristianpauloh no15:37
GNUtoo-desktopkristianpaul, next time talk to me at least15:38
GNUtoo-desktopbefore buying15:38
wpwrakwell, i wouldn't worry too much about the conspiracy theory scenarios. the main issue is functionality.15:38
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: will do15:38
GNUtoo-desktopwpwrak, it really happened for people listened at when they were not in calls15:39
wpwrakof course, in this case, the two may merrily coincide :)15:39
GNUtoo-desktoptrough the cases we know are trough court order15:40
GNUtoo-desktopbut in so many countries you don't really need a court order for that15:40
GNUtoo-desktop(if it's legal or not is not the question)15:40
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: since this is not a universal feature, these must be very specific attacks. at some point, they'll just bug your office, car, and home. so the phone doesn't add a lot more.15:41
GNUtoo-desktopthat doesn't scale15:41
wpwrakindividualized attacks often don't15:41
GNUtoo-desktopand it requires efforts, money etc....15:41
wpwrakbut the "subvert modem firmware" depends on having a device that lets you do that15:42
GNUtoo-desktopin france, very long time ago there was some watergate-ilke scandal15:42
GNUtoo-desktopwith the french president mitterand15:42
wpwrakthat's what i meant with it not being a universal feature15:42
GNUtoo-desktophe ordered to listen to many personalities's phones15:43
GNUtoo-desktopit was illegal still 15:43
wpwrakof course, it's a good idea to avoid such devices, to prevent the feature from becoming more common15:43
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: i was looking functionality and price phone is mostly for work 15:43
kristianpaulbut i do consider cynamodgen :)15:43
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: if you start with illegal wiretapping, bugging places is just one very small step. besides, there's already "legal" wiretapping in the networks.15:44
GNUtoo-desktopyes but let's consider that use case:15:45
GNUtoo-desktopI go to some conferences15:45
GNUtoo-desktopand they remote-activate my mic15:45
GNUtoo-desktopso they can listen what I tell15:45
wpwrakit all depends on your threat model. if your government hates you, better start taking precautions. if it's just joe random hacker who may be after you, it's sufficient to not be among the 90% easiest targets.15:45
kristianpauldo you have a simtrace to verify that (remote-activate my mic) ?15:46
GNUtoo-desktopkristianpaul, I've the hardware yes15:46
GNUtoo-desktopbut I've not a trace15:46
GNUtoo-desktopbtw: https://terminal-profile.osmocom.org/15:46
GNUtoo-desktopI added many phones there15:47
GNUtoo-desktoplike gta04, galaxy nexus, palm pre etc...15:47
zrafainternet sucks here :(15:48
zrafaI read the qi hw irc logs :)15:49
GNUtoo-desktopand wiretaping could be problematic: imagine I'm discussing free software strategy in theses meetings15:49
zrafacool, I did not understand anything :(15:51
zrafaWhat are all of you talkinga about? Saying that kernel in android phones would not be useful for an openwrt rootfs (or openembedded, whatever)?15:52
zrafalike you boot those android  kernels, mount openwrt rootfs, and then your rootfs built will not work?15:53
GNUtoo-desktopI've no idea how it started15:54
GNUtoo-desktopah maybe you started talking about android15:55
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: yes, I wanted to ask if somebody tried to build an openwrt rootfs (or openembedded rootfs) to use in an android phone15:55
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: for examplke, without replacing the kernel part 15:56
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: if that is a problem (Problem=for example, kernel sources are not available for that phone/tablet)15:56
GNUtoo-desktopyes, me15:57
GNUtoo-desktopwhat's the device15:57
GNUtoo-desktopbecause we run android kernels recompiled and modified in SHR15:57
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: I do not have any android phone/tablet :)15:58
GNUtoo-desktopso what's the goal?15:58
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: but I would like to know if most of phones/tablets are similar. It is, if somebody did, then to replicate the work or 16:01
GNUtoo-desktopno, it depends a lot on the SOC16:01
GNUtoo-desktopthe best ones are the high end samsung ones that do not have qualcomm SOC16:01
GNUtoo-desktopit's very close to GNU/Linux16:02
GNUtoo-desktopelse with qualcomm you are very far from GNU/Linux16:02
GNUtoo-desktopwith nearly no mainline support16:02
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: the goal would be to learn if that is possible, and then to encourage to people to try a real linux on their devices16:02
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: in which way it depends on the soc? I mean, if you have the kernel linux in the android phone (free or not, supposly no, with binary drivers and firmware)16:03
GNUtoo-desktopif the device is high end samsung without qualcomm SOC it's really easy to do it:16:03
GNUtoo-desktopwe've already done it for nexus S16:03
GNUtoo-desktopit can be ported easily16:03
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: but it boots and puts the kernel API to rootfs and userspace16:03
GNUtoo-desktopthat's the problem:16:04
GNUtoo-desktopin qualcomm devices for instance they do not have alsa16:04
GNUtoo-desktopor maybe they do recently16:04
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: or do you mean because the arch is too strange that it is difficult to cross compile?16:04
GNUtoo-desktopbut it's not usable anyway16:04
GNUtoo-desktopI mean it's a driver problem16:04
GNUtoo-desktopthe qualcomm drivers are not standard16:04
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: okey, if qualcomm does not have alsa. How android use the audio thing? With userspace drivers or something like that?16:04
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance only to boot GNU/Linux is a pain16:04
GNUtoo-desktopthey have a wrapper on top16:05
GNUtoo-desktopthey have abstractions layer for audio16:05
GNUtoo-desktopsame for every peripherals16:05
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance the htc dream had no alsa16:05
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: what is abstractions layers? userspace drivers?16:05
GNUtoo-desktopit had non-standard but free wifi (but firmware is non-free)16:05
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: sorry for the ignorance16:05
GNUtoo-desktoplibraries in userspace16:05
GNUtoo-desktoplike the libaudio16:05
GNUtoo-desktopwhich will talk to java16:06
GNUtoo-desktopwhich will provide the API that the apps use16:06
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: okey, now I see the problem you are talking about. The problem with a custom linux rootfs is that it would not have many drivers which android rootfs bring16:06
GNUtoo-desktopin all the devices I saw most of the kernel (firmwares apart) were free software16:07
GNUtoo-desktopbut in qualcomm devices the drivers were non-standard16:07
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: the companis of those phones/tables publish the sources of those kernels or android user space libraries?16:07
GNUtoo-desktopthey didn't implement the correct userspace interfaces16:07
GNUtoo-desktopthey publish kernel sources16:07
GNUtoo-desktopbut not the userspace libs16:07
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance look at that:16:07
zrafawhich are not free software most of them (libs) ?16:08
GNUtoo-desktopit depend on the device16:08
GNUtoo-desktoplook in the link I've just pasted for nexus S16:08
GNUtoo-desktopreplicant wiki document what they do16:08
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: those adb pull  are taking the binary non-free software drivers libs?16:09
GNUtoo-desktopthey're taking it from the device16:10
GNUtoo-desktopit's from cyanogenmod16:10
GNUtoo-desktopwhich uses theses16:10
zrafaah.. okey. 16:10
GNUtoo-desktopwe (replicant) don't use them16:10
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: do you know some effort of people documenting devices and if those bring or non complete kernel+drivers as free software, and which not?16:10
zrafa(android devices)16:10
GNUtoo-desktoponly the people porting GNU/Linux can tell.....16:11
GNUtoo-desktopbut some driver are shim16:11
GNUtoo-desktopsome are not16:11
GNUtoo-desktopthe ones which are not are sometimes non-standard16:11
GNUtoo-desktopsuch as audio16:11
GNUtoo-desktopyou get a complete driver in qualcomm devices16:12
GNUtoo-desktopbut the interface is very different16:12
GNUtoo-desktopit's ioctl , and you can even send an mp3 to the device16:12
GNUtoo-desktopit's different from the alsa ioctls etc...16:12
GNUtoo-desktopand you can never know what problems you'll face16:12
GNUtoo-desktopbut if you know well enough the devices, you can avoid somes16:13
zrafaah.. okey. And android apps know how to talk with those interfaces of qualcom devices binary drivers right?16:13
zrafawhich are non standar16:13
GNUtoo-desktopyes, the android apps talk to the java framework16:15
GNUtoo-desktopwhich talks to the libs16:15
GNUtoo-desktopwhich talks to the kernel 16:15
GNUtoo-desktopwhich talks to the hardware16:15
zrafaah.. oke. then the java framework are the ones who know how to talk with those nonfree userspace libs/drivers 16:16
GNUtoo-desktopthe non-free userspace libs implement the same interfaces16:16
GNUtoo-desktoplike non-free audio lib from qualcomm16:16
GNUtoo-desktopor non-free audio lib from samsung16:17
GNUtoo-desktopor free lib 16:17
GNUtoo-desktopthey all use the same interface16:17
GNUtoo-desktopzrafa, I also wonder what's the best way to run GNU/Linux programs on some android devices16:17
GNUtoo-desktopI've looked to it a bit:16:18
GNUtoo-desktopstartkde fails in the android Xorg application (android doens't use xorg but that apps implement xorg on top of the android display thing)16:18
GNUtoo-desktopI'll try with vnc soon16:19
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: from your knowledge it seems that the best way to try that is to know if the phone+android there is mostly a linux kernel standar16:24
arossDOTmeI am trying to install the latest image onto my sd card and have not had success...16:24
arossDOTmeTe .ubi file lives in "/" right?16:25
arossDOTmeare 1 or two partions needed? 1 for uImage and 1 for /16:26
arossDOTmeTe= the16:26
GNUtoo-desktopzrafa, yes16:32
GNUtoo-desktopyou have 2 SOCs that are good enough:16:32
GNUtoo-desktopThe samsung ones (exynos etc...)16:32
GNUtoo-desktopThe TI ones (like omap4 for galaxy nexus)16:32
GNUtoo-desktopthe 2 phones I know are :16:33
GNUtoo-desktopGalaxy Nexu16:33
GNUtoo-desktop*Galaxy Nexus16:33
GNUtoo-desktopand the Nexus S16:33
GNUtoo-desktopI guess that the rest of the samsung phones are pretty similar(galaxy S for instance is similar to the Nexus S)16:33
GNUtoo-desktopbut beware with the audio of galaxy SII16:33
GNUtoo-desktopit's a yamaha CODEC with an driver that is too hard to be understood16:34
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: thanks a lot for all the information man16:36
zrafaand now we have the qi hw irc archive logs for future reference ;)16:37
wpwrakanything nexus is also a good choice if you're staying within the android world16:48
wpwrakso it's good that this overlaps also with real freedom :)16:49
zrafawpwrak: one example of some "anything nexus"?16:57
zrafawpwrak: i do not know mucho about nexus devices16:58
GNUtoo-desktopwpwrak, no17:06
GNUtoo-desktopNexus 4 is not good17:06
GNUtoo-desktopNexus one is also not good17:06
arossDOTmedoes the order of the partitions really matter?18:48
arossDOTmeI guess the problem is I need to update uboot due to my 32gb sd card18:52
arossDOTmerisks of bricking my NN by upgrading uboot?18:55
viricit has the 'usbboot' mode18:59
arossDOTmethank you.19:03
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: do you know if the android interface changes from time to time (between versions for example).20:34
GNUtoo-desktopyes I know20:34
GNUtoo-desktopit does20:34
zrafaso if we would have some driver in userspace which "knows" how the android interface works, and then can talk with binary drivers. Then I was thinking that we could have something like this :20:35
zrafa- native linux application (for example, an alsa program to play sounds)20:35
zrafa- userspace driver which shows an alsa API to the alsa applications. And also knows the android sound interface to talk with binary or not sound driverrs.20:36
zrafa- binary or free driver for the audio (in userspace or not. It would be the current driver hard to replace/remove).20:37
zrafa- kernel20:37
zrafa- hw20:37
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: But, if the android api changes then this idea is just useful for an specific android version :P20:37
GNUtoo-desktopthat already exist20:38
GNUtoo-desktoplibphysis or something like taht20:38
GNUtoo-desktopit's made by a meego person20:39
zrafaGNUtoo-desktop: I do not find info about.. what is that? some middle driver?20:41
GNUtoo-desktopI don't know20:41
GNUtoo-desktopI never had to do with it20:41
GNUtoo-desktopI don't find it 20:43
GNUtoo-desktopask morphis20:43
GNUtoo-desktophe knows about it20:43
GNUtoo-desktopfound it20:46
GNUtoo-desktopwhich is forked from:20:46
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: I didn't say the overlap was complete :) i'm already happy that  nexus && freedom_friendly doesn't yield the empty set :)20:47
arossDOTmeOn http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Uboot whats the difference between the 2 methods?22:19
wpwraknot sure if xbboot is actively supported anymore22:34
wpwrakthe difference would be that it's two ways (i.e., two different programs) to accomplish the same. so if you run into troubles with one, you can try the other22:34
arossDOTmethanks and do I need to reflash my nn nand afterwards? I wouldn't have thought so but the wording of the article makes me think again.22:44
arossDOTmeI also have 2 goodies for I have put together. They are just under 200lines but could reach 200lines long if some features are added. I guess they don't deserve to be copyrighted(GPL)?22:48
arossDOTmes/for I/, I/22:49
arossDOTmeqi-bot: help22:49
zrafawpwrak: another qi-bot2 to talk with qi-bot could help with statistics as well :)22:50
wpwrakzrafa: i'm sure DocScrutinizer would be more than happy to help with that ;-)22:55
wpwrakzrafa: in fact, i have infobot on ignore because of his monologues with the bot. hmm. just noticed that the bot is no longer around. good :)22:56
wpwrakarossDOTme: i'd say you don't need to reflash all the NAND if you just upgrade u-boot. i'd still make sure there's nothing overly valuable to be lost if something goes wrong, though.22:57
wpwrak(copyright) copyright applies even for ridiculously small items. if you don't specify a license, the default assumption is that no copying, modification, etc., is allowed.22:58
arossDOTmewell i mean i would make it public domain23:00
arossDOTmeits just on the fsf or gnu web they say 200lines23:01
arossDOTmeone of goodies consists of 10 line .sh's and a big config file and very small config files.23:03
wpwrakoh, pick whatever license suits your intentions. it's your intentions that matter :)23:03
arossDOTmemy thinking was one somthing small does it end up being like a patent in a way.23:04
arossDOTmebut then23:04
arossDOTmegpl then23:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: we were talking about bots. and you like bots :-)23:25
wpwrakarossDOTme: copyright != patent. and yes, there is plenty of evidence that even the most trivial things can be (and are) patented.23:28
DocScrutinizer05I like the database supporting my memory, since I'd not keep in mind each friggin URL and whatnot23:29
DocScrutinizer05not to mention typing it23:30
arossDOTmeI know copyright != patent. I ment in a wield way but the "but then"  line was me doubting/negativing that thought.23:30
DocScrutinizer05here's no infobot anymore, so the topic is moot23:30
arossDOTmeon the website how do I add an project?23:41
wpwrakarossDOTme: according to http://techlogon.com/2011/11/15/how-many-websites-are-there-in-the-world/ there are some 620 million Web sites in the world. perhaps you may wish to be more specific :)23:44
DocScrutinizer05what a surprise, he meant qi website23:46
wpwrakaah ! :)23:46
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, i suspected that it may be qi (though some projects in the qi universe also use github). but even there, it could be the wiki and not the projects server.23:46
DocScrutinizer05then your quote about those 620 million helped how?23:47
arossDOTmeits fine23:48
DocScrutinizer05"github, wiki, or projects server" anyway would've been a shorter comment23:48
arossDOTmeupgrading uboot fixed it yea!23:48
wpwrakarossDOTme: can you reach this one ? http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/admin/projects/create/23:49
arossDOTmeoh pyclock.. don't seam to work23:49
arossDOTmes/403/wpwrak: 403/23:49
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you should know me better ;-)23:50
DocScrutinizer05sorry, lost my sense of humor sometime during fighting trolls today23:50
wpwrak(403 hmm. let's see ...23:51
arossDOTmepyclock does not like being run from them menu23:51
wpwrakhmm, i don't see a way to create projects. odd. i though one could at least request them.23:54
wpwrakarossDOTme: which brings us to the fallback option: ask someone with suitable permissions to do it. luckily, i happen to have those :)23:55
wpwraki would need the project name and the "shortname"23:56
wpwrakexamples for "names" are, on http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/, the text on the links23:57
wpwrakthe "shortnames" would be the last element these links point to23:57
wpwrake.g., "Antorcha" / "antorcha" or "IEEE 802.15.4 subsystem" / "ben-wpan"23:57
wpwrakthe syntax rule for the "shortname" is "It must be unique for each project and composed only of letters, digits and dash (-) like "my-project"."23:58
arossDOTmeoh great :D right then one name Decent CL Countdown (decentclcountdown) and Mplayer OSD Menu (mp-osd-menu)23:58
arossDOTmewpwrak: hang on23:58
wpwrakand i'll need your account name23:59
wpwrakah, aross i presume23:59
arossDOTmes/Decent CL Countdown/NN  Decent CL Countdown maybe/23:59
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