#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2012-10-28

kristianpaulDocScrutinizer05: Have you fixed your n900 for mic (people dont hear your) problems?01:22
kristianpaulHi btw :_)01:22
DocScrutinizer05kristianpaul: I never knew I had those problems01:22
kristianpaulbut you heard of it perhaps?01:24
kristianpaulfrom googling seems to be a know issue01:24
DocScrutinizer05I heard of some allegedly hw defects triggered by hmmmm maybe early FM-radio app implementations, on maemo01:25
DocScrutinizer05some 2 or 3 years ago01:25
kristianpaulhmm? and an app can damage hw or just a soft issue?01:25
kristianpauldont get it..01:25
DocScrutinizer05me neither01:25
DocScrutinizer05there've been like 2 or 3 reports of mic ceasing to work, and allegedly(!) a full reflash wasn't able to cure the problem01:26
DocScrutinizer05but maybe PEBKAC01:26
kristianpaulhope so :)01:27
DocScrutinizer05anyway those guys sent in their devices and got them back "repaired" - nobody knows what Nokia Care did, maybe they simply did proper reset/reflash01:27
DocScrutinizer05from schematics I have a hard time figuring how to kill mic and related circuitry on a hw level01:28
kristianpaulthe wires are hard to access? or?01:29
DocScrutinizer05iirc the mics are SMT and digital01:29
kristianpauls/wires/pcb routes/s01:29
kristianpaulsorry sorry yes01:30
DocScrutinizer05mompls, I check back01:30
kristianpaulnow i see more senss for the  PEBKAC01:30
DocScrutinizer05B4030 "Digital Microphone"01:32
DocScrutinizer05VDD, CLK, DATA, GND01:32
DocScrutinizer05maybe they fried the DATA output of the mic by programming GPIO1_A of codec to output?01:33
DocScrutinizer05I don't see any other way to fry mic01:34
DocScrutinizer05and I doubt this way would actually work01:34
DocScrutinizer05ooops sorry, GPIO2_A01:35
DocScrutinizer05GPIO1_A is mic's CLOCK, via 100R, so unlikely to do any harm, no matter what you'd do to that GPIO01:36
kristianpaulah yes clk is is 0101:36
DocScrutinizer05DATA <-  [L4032,120R] -> GPIO2_A01:37
DocScrutinizer05so I gather the 120R are at 100MHz, according to writing on that bead01:37
DocScrutinizer05DATA <-  [L4032; 120R/100MHz] -> GPIO2_A   - actually01:38
DocScrutinizer05nah, I doubt there's any hw problem re N900 internal mic01:40
kristianpaulwhat about microsd any know issues on your side?01:41
DocScrutinizer05uSD? no known issues either01:41
Action: kristianpaul click buy?01:42
DocScrutinizer05except for some kerneldriver fix for a particular transcend(?) card that might get permanently damaged otherwise01:42
kristianpauli tought the kernel damaging intel e1000 cards was the top...01:43
DocScrutinizer05well, one single build of a card01:43
kristianpaulthe same i heard for the intel nic...01:43
DocScrutinizer05and that's a linuxwide bug fixed by TI or Intel01:44
kristianpaulyes sure01:44
DocScrutinizer05you'd need powerkernel to get the fix, I guess01:44
DocScrutinizer05not sure if Pali included it or not01:45
DocScrutinizer05or you run your own bleeding edge kernel anyway, dunno what you plan to do01:45
kristianpauli just sat the offer01:46
DocScrutinizer05which offer?01:46
kristianpauli will run maemo for sure (if i decide buy)01:46
DocScrutinizer05if you're about to buy used N900, take care, there are several with overclocking damage or semi-broken USB receptacle01:47
kristianpauljust used avalible01:48
kristianpauland i dont feel confident buying a newer cooler phone..01:48
kristianpauloverclocking :-)01:49
DocScrutinizer05I don't think this is a good buy01:49
kristianpaulme either.. ;)01:49
kristianpauli havent clicked01:49
kristianpaulagain my fever for a phone that run linux (not droid) begun...01:50
DocScrutinizer05there are used ones in supposedly "like new" condition available for ~100EUR, and really new ones for ~18001:50
kristianpaul100 eur still aceptable to me01:51
DocScrutinizer05I'll keep your demand in mind, maybe I can get another two nice phones eventually. My 4 feel a little lonely ;-D01:54
DocScrutinizer05but I actually don't like to buy used ones, since you never know what previous user did to them01:55
kristianpaulbut new ones are still avaliable or those to claim to be new really are?01:55
DocScrutinizer05last 2 ones I bought were new w/o original package w/o accessories other than fastcharger. ~240EUR per device01:56
kristianpaulhum hum 01:56
DocScrutinizer05the hongkong source is shite, those are actually refurbished ones01:56
DocScrutinizer05here in Germany I see offers from BlueFon every now and then, 180..250EUR01:57
kristianpaulstill hard to believe you can buy a 2009 phone as "new", if not refurbished01:57
DocScrutinizer05well, those are display devices etc01:57
DocScrutinizer05I guess01:58
DocScrutinizer05anyway they had no traces of usage, and they come with usual warranty01:58
kristianpaulah good01:59
DocScrutinizer05though that might help little, when you can't get a replacement in 5 months, if yours actually breaks01:59
kristianpaultraces, my laptop saids when was first poweron :)02:00
kristianpauloh well02:01
DocScrutinizer05http://compare.ebay.de/like/190744280028?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar  no recommendations, just for reference02:06
DocScrutinizer05"neu" = new, "wie neu" = almost new02:06
DocScrutinizer05"gebraucht" = used02:07
Action: kristianpaul blind mode again02:08
kristianpaulbut thanks !02:08
DocScrutinizer05http://www.ebay.de/itm/Neu-Nokia-N900-32GB-5MP-GSM-ENTSPERRT-UNLOCKED-Ohne-Simlock-EXPRESS-VERSAND-/251174319027?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BP%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BIIUM%26otn%3D9%26pmod%3D190744280028%26ps%3D54 is fake, I heard02:08
kristianpaulfake, urghhh02:09
DocScrutinizer05though they claim "new, unused, in unopened original package"02:10
DocScrutinizer05if that's the truth, it would be a good buy02:11
DocScrutinizer05if it's not true, you could send it back - haha02:11
DocScrutinizer05kristianpaul: well, this "Hongkong" offer is actually a seller from Israel with a lot of nasty negative ratings, all about "goods actually not new"02:38
kristianpaul...... :-|02:40
DocScrutinizer05I suggest you check ebay for ~2 weeks, I'm rather confident something decent will show up02:42
xiangfukyak, Hi.11:41
xiangfukyak, I have tried linux-3.6.0 + xburst-tools. it works fine here. what is your libusb version? (`libusb-config --version` give me : 0.1.12)11:41
kyakxiangfu: hi11:46
kyak0.1.12 here as well11:46
kyakbut it's definitely kernel11:46
kyakmine is 3.6.311:47
kyaki skipped 3.6.011:47
kyakthe previous working one was 3.5.611:47
kyaki;m using xburst-tools version 201206 it that matters11:49
kyakthough usbboot --version says 20110411:49
xiangfukyak, ok. I build both 3.6.0 and 3.7.0 (I am using the git source code). both work fine here. I am download 3.6.3 now.12:33
xiangfureboot for test 3.6.3 + xburst-tools12:59
xiangfukyak: Hi. I am under linux-3.6.3 now.13:03
xiangfulinux-3.6.3 + xburst-tools works fine here. I have tried relfash bootloader and kernel to nanonote.13:04
kyakxiangfu: damn -\ i'm glad it works for you, but i'm dissappointed that this is not reproducable13:21
xiangfukyak, can you try run usbboot -c "boot;reset" now? paste the output somewhere.13:21
kyaksometimes it errors out during stage1 though13:23
kyaklike this: http://dpaste.org/553sm/13:25
xiangfukyak, please try "wget http://downloads.openmobilefree.net/tmp/u-boot.bin && xbboot -u 0x80100000 u-boot.bin"13:30
kyakgoes on like that endlessly13:32
xiangfuyes. until it found and upload file to nanonote. :)13:33
kyakdo you mean i shouldn't interrupt it?13:34
xiangfuwe should interrupt it. 13:37
kyaki let it run for a couple of minutes anyway :)13:39
xiangfubtw. you can start the xbboot first. then plug-in nanonote (usbboot mode). it will detect nanonote and upload files. 13:41
xiangfukyak, in 'ingenic_usb.h' there is a USB_TIMEOUT. let's try to change it to '0'. see what happen.13:49
kyakxiangfu: (start xbboot first) http://dpaste.org/U0BnE/14:06
kyakxiangfu: (USB_TIMEOUT) should i drop the usleep patch?14:06
xiangfuno needs.14:07
kyakafter xbboot has uploaded the files, i can now use usbboot nprog?14:07
xiangfu(xbboot) is that boot your nanonote?14:07
xiangfuit should boot your nanonote to openwrt.14:07
kyakthe screen is blank14:08
kyakthe lsusb shows still XBurst Jz4740 boot mode14:08
kyakwhy would it be in openwrt?14:08
xiangfuxbboot -u 0x80100000 u-boot.bin: it upload the u-boot.bin to 0x80100000  and run it. 14:12
xiangfuso it everything goes fine. it should boot kernel then goto openwrt.14:12
xiangfuif the screen is blank. mean the upload was failed.14:13
kyakthen something went wrong... it was still left in usb boot mode14:13
kyakafter changing USB_TIMEOUT to 0, it hangs forever when trying to upload14:15
kyak Download stage 2 program and execute at 0x81c0000014:15
kyak CPU data: JZ4740V114:15
kyakkernel panic again14:18
kyakin xhci14:18
kyakit happens after i unplug and replug ben while it's in usb boot mode14:18
Action: panda|x201 downloading new 2012-10-24 image ...14:19
kyaknothing in system logs14:21
xiangfuhmm... kyak, should I try xhci? I use the /boot/config-3.2.0-24-generic for compile
kyaki guess i need to take a photo of my screen14:21
kyakxiangfu: probably you could try that14:22
kyakmaybe xhci is a merge is uhci and ehci14:22
kyakbut i don't know when this happened.. probably somewhere between 3.5.6 and 3.6.3 :)14:23
kyakxiangfu: i can give you my config. In fact, i'm just running a stock kernel in Arch linux14:23
xiangfukyak, I will try xhci tomorrow. then let you know.14:27
kristianpaulkyak: do you still using the sd-wifi card?14:35
kristianpaulHi there btw :)14:36
whitequarkwolfspra1l: you here?14:43
kyakkristianpaul: nope, and i never used it.. that is, never had success using it :)16:43
whitequarkkyak: never had much problems16:51
kyakwhitequark: yeah, i heard that from several people16:52
kyaki wanted to try again with the latest image, but i'm kinda stuck because i can't flash Ben since i upgraded to 3.616:53
kyakdowngrading is too much trouble16:54
e2580Anyone interested in a sneak peek at a hardware based security device we are about ready to release? www.CryptX2.com/demo19:33
wpwrake2580: web site suggests you're doing a number of things right :) "open source for personal use" is a bit lame, though21:09
e2580it is lame to not want other companies to mass produce and sell our work ?21:09
e2580the only restriction we have is you cant sell and compete against us21:10
e2580which means in the USA21:10
e2580outside the usa, you can sell for profit as we cant export21:10
wpwrakinability to export sucks21:13
wpwrakwhat sort of magic chip did you use that got you into this ?21:13
e2580it has hardware crypto accelerator21:22
lindi-e2580: "Content on this page requires a newer version of Adobe Flash Player."21:43
e2580video if flv, we havent posted other versions yet21:44
lindi-e2580: is the licensing information somewhere on that site or only in the product itself?21:48
e2580license is not posted yet21:48
e2580it is fully open source, the only restriction is competing sales of the hardware within the USA21:49
lindi-e2580: if the license is not open source then I'd strongly urge you to not market it as open source21:49
lindi-e2580: hard to say anything about that without seeing the license first21:49
lindi-e2580: how do you define open source?21:49
e2580we post all source code, and allow changes, redistribution etc..21:50
e2580ie, open source21:50
lindi-e2580: but not selling in usa?21:50
e2580we dont allow sales of the device itself in the USA. you can make them for personal use21:51
lindi-e2580: "The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away" -- http://opensource.org/osd.html21:51
e2580that is for software21:52
lindi-e2580: ?21:53
lindi-e2580: I thought we were talking about software here21:53
e2580this is hardware21:55
lindi-e2580: I don't think we have a clear definition for open source hardware21:55
e2580have you seen the video ?21:56
lindi-e2580: how could I see it? it wants adobe flash player21:56
lindi-e2580: I tried to tell you :)21:56
e2580anti adobe huh :)21:56
lindi-e2580: no, just pro open source21:57
e2580yes, me too, this was just for screening the sample video21:57
lindi-e2580: I do use some adobe stuff that is open source like flex21:57
lindi-e2580: but the flash player isn't21:58
e2580check the downloads page, that will explain a bit better what we will offer21:59
e2580literally everything21:59
lindi-e2580: I still can't see how you can call something open source and then not allow selling22:00
e2580there are different open source licenses22:01
lindi-e2580: can you give some concrete example?22:01
e2580all source code and files are available, you can make your own22:01
lindi-e2580: all open source licenses that I know allo selling22:01
lindi-e2580: open source does not only mean that source code is available, it means more than that22:02
e2580one of many different licenses22:03
lindi-e2580: but where does it say that it is an open source license?22:04
e2580several places on the page22:06
lindi-e2580: well it says it is similar to open source22:06
e2580the first line it says it22:06
e2580it says it is similar to the open source software license22:07
lindi-yeah similar22:07
e2580this is hardware, which is different22:07
lindi-yeah I don't think there is a clear definition on what "open hardware" means22:07
e2580no, there isnt22:07
lindi-thus it's confusing to use "open source" there since open source has a clear meaning22:07
e2580that is still a new area22:07
e2580the software is open source, as you expect it to be22:08
lindi-e2580: I hope so :)22:08
e2580we are just trying to prevent big industry from comoing in and making a ton of the devices and knocking us out of market22:09
e2580we dont care what individuals do22:09
lindi-if open hardware means that then I'll definition want to work on something else22:09
e2580the device is made to be modified22:09
rohmake it copyleft, but excluding business per se isnt compatible with 'opensource' from most definitions22:10
rohalso it would kill all verticals, even the ones buying your hw22:11
e2580so what is your suggestion for securing we are able to get our investment back in the sales of the hardware and still keep it open source ?22:12
rohcopyleft license22:12
e2580significant cost has gone into the development of this project22:12
e2580any links you suggest?22:12
rohlook up copyleft22:13
rohyou know the bsd vs gpl differences? most of that22:13
rohif someone can copy your hw and redo all the 'getting it produced' hoops and loops, and still make money, you didnt listen to your customers22:14
rohbecause you can sell cheaper than anybody who doesnt know the design and all its details22:15
rohmaking hardware is 20% concept, 20% design/development, 20%software and 40% production complications22:15
rohthe latter 40% is what you dont release, since the data would only be valid for your process on your machines. thats what makes you money. because its your advantage in time to 'get things falling out of the production line'22:16
e2580we plan to release all files, so the gerber files for pcb, solder mask files, BOM, etc..22:19
e2580you can order pcbs, and parts and build them22:19
e2580even source files from altium will be provided22:20
e2580schematic, pcb layout files etc..22:20
e2580for editing22:20
e2580our other option is to hold these hardware files until we recoup our investment, then release them22:21
e2580or change the license after we hit profit22:21
e2580open it at that point22:22
rohsure. if you dont have anybody elses code in there...22:22
e2580not for hardware22:22
e2580we are open to ideas and suggestions on this22:23
rohwell.. i am not your target group, so maybe i am the wrong one to ask ;) but i'd advice to sell worldwide.22:26
e2580we cant22:26
rohno reason to make hw and not sell it. make it in china and sell it directly to europe or via some european importer if us exports are worrysome.22:26
e2580export laws on crypto22:26
rohyour phone pbx are chinese code already... dont worry *veg*22:27
e2580well, if you want to make and sell outside the US, let me know22:27
e2580we will sell pcb to anyone22:28
rohe2580: you want to make and source everything in the us?22:28
e2580and we will sell device with no MCU on it22:28
e2580no, i work with people all over the world to make this project22:28
rohwhow.. expensive chip22:29
e2580its not that i have issues it, there is export laws we have to abide by22:29
rohe2580: and that means 'you need to loose money'?22:30
rohis this the right controller? http://www.watterott.com/de/Atmel-UC3-A3-Xplained-AT32UC3A3-XPLD22:31
rohor is the 's' important?22:31
e2580yes, s means it has the crypto accelerator22:32
e2580evk1104s is the devkit22:33
rohhmm., can't order the chips without export declaration paperwork22:35
rohso its the same if you solder it and your customers fill out paperwork or if they solder themselves.. paperwork anyhow22:35
e2580order from someplace else22:37
e2580thats not the only supplier22:37
rohall sources i find with an s inside europe are us companies22:37
qi-botThe build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20121027-1510 22:50
wpwrakperhaps the best way to circumvent the export restrictions on the chip is to manufacture abroad. e.g., china probably doesn't care about such things :)23:14
wpwrakroh: the cost calculation between original maker and copycat is different: the original maker also tries to recover the initial R&D investment. the copycat doesn't have that issue and can therefore be profitable on lower margins.23:15
wpwrake2580: you'd probably be fine just gpl/cc-by-sa/etc.-ing it. the rock-bottom copycats won't care about your license anyway, but they may also be too busy cloning some big brand name stuff to even notice you.23:17
wpwrake2580: the "big but still reasonably nice guys" tend to fear gpl-type licenses, so it would take forever for a clone to clear their legal department. besides, they'd want to do their own branding and so on.23:19
wpwrake2580: that leaves the small and nice guys who have high overhead and who'd probably have a hard time competing with your volume production.23:20
wpwrakbesides, you have a headstart with your brand name. as long as people associate it with quality, they may not trust the copycats. security is a good place to play on customer paranoia ;-)23:23
e2580not really trying to sell paranoia23:25
e2580enough security devices do that23:25
e2580we wanted to provide an actual solution23:25
e2580we have no interest in directly selling outside the US, actually if a reliable distributor outside the US wants to work a deal, we may consider listing them in our website for official non US sales23:27
wpwrakoh, you don't need to sell paranoia. but you can still be quite certain that it's out there ;-)23:27
wpwrakbesides, anyone who cares enough about security to buy your device is unlikely to be the blissfully unconcerned and blindly trusting type23:28
e2580its only paranoia until someone trys to attack you23:28
wpwrakwhy limit yourself to the US ? it's a big world out there ...23:29
wolfspra1lwpwrak: yes here, good morning. what's up?23:29
wpwrakwolfspra1l: wrong w* ;-) whitequark was looking for you23:30
wolfspra1lno coffee yet23:33
wpwrake2580: of course, having international distributors is always good, also to limit shipping costs, customs hassles, local crypto regulations, and so on23:34
wpwrakhmm ... does anyone know whether FR4 (the pcb material, without copper or any other coating/treatment) is food-safe ? i just figured that i could mill a nice garlic-peeling device, but i need one or two boards of material that can resist mild acids. alas, that eliminates aluminium.23:43
wpwrakactually, Al may still be an option, as long as it's washed soon after use. hmm. need to conduct some experiments on that.23:53
wpwrakacrylic would be an all-around safe choice, but it's probably too brittle for that task.23:54
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