#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2012-10-15

kristianpaulwpwrak: had you ever ordered from rs-online?00:46
wpwraklet's see what that is ..00:49
wpwrakrs-online.com.ar ?00:49
wpwrakand no, i never bought from them00:50
kristianpaul.ar no00:51
qi-botThe build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20121015-0257 05:41
qi-bot[commit] kyak: keymouse: update dl method, drop patches (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ed585eb08:19
qi-bot[commit] kyak: mplayer:depends on libmpg123 if BUILD_PATENTED (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b5a00a308:47
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: avrdude: fix depends (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6a2b91411:12
kyakxiangfu: hi, this is the final patch i'm using with qt4: https://gist.github.com/389199911:20
kyakmight help with the issues on buildhost11:20
Action: xiangfu click..11:20
kyakxiangfu: what could be the reson for "Error - can't retrieve XBurst CPU information: -110" when trying to flash? lsusb shows ID 601a:4740 Ingenic Semiconductor Ltd. XBurst Jz4740 boot mode11:21
xiangfukyak, I will apply your patch. and continue build the image.11:22
kyakalso it's not bricked, i can boot fine :) perhaps some intermittent problem that might go away after i reboot?..11:22
xiangfukyak, are you using software-usbboot or hardware-usbboot?11:22
kyakthe software i guess (U+Power)11:22
kyakxiangfu: you might want to apply the patch for package-ipkg.mk i sent you as well.. 11:23
xiangfukyak, already done that on buildhost. thanks.11:23
kyakthere is no reply in according bug report (12317)11:24
xiangfukyak, I will test the u-boot software usbboot mode later today.11:25
xiangfukyak, the final image almost here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20121015-0257/11:25
xiangfukyak, after apply your qt patch. I will try to build qball/qstardict again. no matter it build or not. I will start test the images.11:26
xiangfukyak, I will include the new avrdude package. which is used in werner's ledtoy. :)11:26
kyaknice :)11:26
xiangfukyak, package-ipkg.mk. your patch looks good.11:27
xiangfukyak, after changed a new fan. my computer get better. less noise. lower temperature then before. :)11:28
kyakmaybe i will try hardware usbboot.. i swear it was working just yesterday (but yesterday i also had my host kernel updated)11:28
kyakxiangfu: i'm getting a new laptop today.. In fact i'm waiting for the damn delivery guy11:29
xiangfukyak, ok. so you change whole computer. much better then change only fan. :-D11:30
kyakusbboot returns CPU info: Crystal work at 12MHz, the CCLK up to 252MHz and PMH_CLK up to 84MHz etc..11:30
xiangfukyak, you are using the new u-boot right?11:30
kyakyep, the new one11:31
kyakwhich i flashed just yesterday11:31
xiangfukyak, is that happen once or everytime you reflash?11:32
kyakmaybe i'll connect the second nanonote, which has an older u-boot &11:32
kyakthis started to happen just today11:32
kyakyeah, works flawlessly on the second NN11:34
kyakoh, maybe not quite..11:34
kyakstil -110 at the end11:35
xiangfukyak, can you try this u-boot: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20121015-0257/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin11:35
xiangfukyak, after load stage2.bin. usbboot try to read the 'CPU data' again. your error because it take too long to read the data by usb.11:38
xiangfukyak, this can fixed by increase the delay inside the usbboot code. (http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/xburst-tools/source/tree/master/usbboot/src/ingenic_usb.c#L331)11:41
xiangfukyak, this maybe because your new kernel? what is your new kernel version? (I am using 3.2.0-24-generic in my laptop)11:41
kyakmine is 3.6.211:53
kyaki will downgrade and try11:54
kyakxiangfu: works great on 3.5.612:06
kyakxiangfu: btw, do you know why usbboot doesn't check if a chunk was successfully flashed, when flashing bootloader?12:08
kyakFinish! (len 360448 start_page 0 page_num 88)12:08
kyakChecking 360448 bytes... No check! end at page: 8812:08
kyakthat's for bootloader12:08
kyakand for kernel:12:08
kyakFinish! (len 524288 start_page 1024 page_num 128)12:09
kyakChecking 524288 bytes... Comparing 524288 bytes - SUCCESS12:09
kyakyou see, there is no "SUCCESS" when flashing bootloader12:09
kyakso the progress bar get's confused, because it relies on "SUCCESS" string12:09
viricthe bootloader may lack ECC12:10
viricor use some weird one12:10
viricbut as it's writing, something could be checked I guess12:10
wpwrakthe best practice is generally to first write everything, then verify everything. that way, also writes that went to the wrong place are detected.12:16
xiangfukyak, because. the jz4740 cpu can only read 2KB nand at boot time. even the nand is 4KB. it still load 2KB.12:17
xiangfukyak, so when we reflash the bootloader. we reflash like [2KB(skip 2kb)] [2KB(skip 2kb)]12:18
wpwrakxiangfu: btw, thanks for including the latest avrdude !12:20
kyakxiangfu: yeah, that's clear, but why we don't check (SUCCESS) the first chunk in this case?12:24
xiangfukyak, no reason. there is just no such message. feel free to add one. :)12:29
xiangfuwpwrak, you are welcome. 12:30
kyakxiangfu: ok, i'll have a look12:47
xiangfukyak, at that time. I do copy a lot of windows ingenic code.12:52
kyakdoes it mean we would be able to flash from windows?12:53
xiangfukyak, basically the linux relate code is better then others like ingenic_usb.c :)12:53
xiangfukyak, yes. we can 12:53
kyaksounds great.. though a working RNDIS would be so much better12:54
xiangfukyak, the windows code is here: http://downloads.openmobilefree.net/Ingneic/xburst-tools-windows/.12:55
xiangfukyak, ingenic people allow me put this source code public.12:56
kyakbtw, while we discuss Windows support, i'm in a process in removing Windows from my new laptop :)13:02
xiangfukyak, that fix the root cause of 'RNDIS issue'. :D13:28
kristianpaulair freight is like air mail in terms of costs?14:03
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: nanonote-files: mtd.nn: improvement on mount (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f7f72e314:05
wpwrakfreight is typically for large things and tends to be slower15:45
wpwrakso you can't really compare prices15:46
wpwrakyou basically have 1) documents (fast, cheapest), 2) parcels (may be a little slower than documents due to customs, but not much, often a bit more expensive than documents), 3) cargo (generally with more complicated customs procedures)15:47
wpwrakin other words: what you pick depends mainly on what you're sending15:48
kristianpaul40usd from uk17:39
kristianpaulwow and 100usd from digikey/usa17:39
kristianpaullet me check currency again :)17:39
kristianpaulit seems17:40
whitequarkI'm used to FedEx and EMS deliveries17:53
whitequarkbut it is the first time some drunk guy is delivered to my door17:53
kristianpaulFedEx how much?17:58
kristianpaulthat 100usd is fedex17:58
whitequarkkristianpaul: yeah, it's the same for russia18:07
whitequarkuse farnell18:07
whitequarkit's way better18:07
kristianpauli was qouting from rs18:07
kristianpauli'll check farnell18:07
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:28:52] <TimRiker> DocScrutinizer05, there have been a few channels where I created files with the name of the log directory. This effectively stops the cron job from exporting html logs for those channels.18:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:30:26] <TimRiker> I prefer not to have the bot in channels if they don't want them logged. if people are posting on public irc networks and expecting their data to be private in any way, they are in for sore disappointment. _anyone_ could be logging and reposting anything, anywhere.18:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:31:28] <TimRiker> if you don't want your IP shown, then get a cloak. that's what they are for. but remember that sometimes services are down, so even a cloak does not insure that your ip is private.18:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:32:19] <TimRiker> if you don't want your ip shown, don't use irc, or send email, or hit web sites, or use instant messaging, in short, get off the Internet.18:30
DocScrutinizer05so, on ""public demand""18:30
DocScrutinizer05~leave #qi-hardware18:31
DocScrutinizer05~quit #qi-hardware18:31
DocScrutinizer05~part #qi-hardware18:31
infobotLeaving. (courtesy of docscrutinizer05).18:31
rohare you bored?18:31
DocScrutinizer05here you are18:32
DocScrutinizer05kyak been bored18:32
DocScrutinizer05but to be honest, this concern about IPs exposed actually bores me18:35
rohsimple solution: use static ips ;)18:36
rohwell.. no additional information exposure. same shellhost all the time18:37
DocScrutinizer05you mean then it's pretty clear everybody can link your IP to you?18:37
rohand that one has my name on anyhow...18:37
DocScrutinizer05it's indeed an embarrasingly silly concern18:38
DocScrutinizer05but hey, I'm not very active in this chan anyway, and so when I miss infobot around, who except me will care and take consequences18:40
DocScrutinizer05thought as much18:41
DocScrutinizer05and incorrect as well18:43
DocScrutinizer05or this silly bot only counts kicks it did itself?18:43
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: well, I thought it was nice to have it.18:58
DocScrutinizer05well, talk to whomever is th eowner of this chan18:59
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:30:26] <TimRiker> I prefer not to have the bot in channels if they don't want them logged. if people are posting on public irc networks and expecting their data to be private in any way, they are in for sore disappointment. _anyone_ could be logging and reposting anything, anywhere.19:00
whitequarkyup. I totally agree19:01
larscwell anyone could come up to you and shoot you, still I dont do it19:03
DocScrutinizer05a pretty odd analogy19:03
whitequarklarsc: well, I actually think about it each other way I go out19:05
whitequark*other day19:05
DocScrutinizer05I answer: you're kernel hacker, give us a TCP stack that automatically hides IP19:05
larsctechnical solutions for social problems are often suboptimal19:06
DocScrutinizer05so how's filttering IP in chanlog _not_ a technical solution19:06
DocScrutinizer05for the social problem of fools thinking they could live anonymous in internet19:06
larscyou are confusing cause and action19:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: there _is_ a technical solution19:07
whitequarknamely an ircd which does not expose IPs19:07
DocScrutinizer05ooh, yep, you're right - filtering chanlogs is the problem, not the solution19:07
whitequarkif you trust the server, it is a solution.19:07
DocScrutinizer05I think the root problem is people "trusting" 51 (or N - 2) chanusers, but get scared as soon as chanlog shows up on a webpage19:10
DocScrutinizer05make that 53 or N, since they probably trust themselves and chanserv as well19:10
DocScrutinizer05ping me if you change your (or chanowner's) mind about this silly issue19:11
DocScrutinizer05I'm willing to join infobot any time19:11
DocScrutinizer05I'm _not_ willing to pester Tim about nonsense19:12
DocScrutinizer05like filtering chanlogs, to hide "private" info19:12
larsclet me try a different analogy, he is basically saying it's ok to steal your stuff because you did not lock your door.19:12
DocScrutinizer05you're completely derailed19:13
larscwhile it is 'stupid' not to lock the door, you still can't justify stealing stuff from somebody with the argument that anybody could have done this19:13
DocScrutinizer05pretty please reread Tim's statement, esp in context I posted earlier, before you continue that fuzz19:14
whitequarklarsc: oh, but if you get all your valuable stuff and just place it on the street19:15
whitequarkit's pretty much justified.19:15
DocScrutinizer05and then claim it's illegal to take a photo since it's *your* stuff19:15
whitequarkif you do not take _any sensible countermeasures_ to prevent anyone stealing your stuff, you deserve it19:15
larscstupidity is to a justification to exploit people19:16
larscis not19:16
whitequarkor, let me phrase it other way: if you don't give a f about your privacy, why should I?19:16
DocScrutinizer05this is about chan logging19:16
larscthis is about private information19:17
whitequarkit is public.19:17
whitequarkeveryone already can access it.19:17
DocScrutinizer05stupidity is a justification to mute or kick people, but since i'm not in a mood to do so, I better leave you peeps alone19:17
whitequarkwell I won't call a man with a different point of view stupid, to say at least19:17
whitequarkeven if I consider his POV stupid.19:18
whitequarkthat's just unproductive19:18
DocScrutinizer05"hey, I'm writing my password on that house wall so I don't forget it - but you're rogue to take a photo of it!" BWAHAHAHA19:18
whitequarkthe security is not in the machine19:20
whitequarkit's in minds19:20
whitequarkand if you do not care about it, you don't have any security or privacy. trivial.19:20
whitequarkdon't like facebook collecting info? don't join facebook. simple. no regulation whatsoever could change its behavior.19:20
whitequarksame here.19:21
whitequarkyou might _want_ it to be some other way, but your wishes won't change the world or whatever19:21
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: larsc called Tim a criminal, since Tim dared to prefer not having his bot in channels, rather than to implement silly chanlog filtering for those silly stupid channels19:22
larscDocScrutinizer05: I did not19:22
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: he did not19:22
larscI said that I don't agree with his reasoning that something should be done because anybody else could also do it19:23
DocScrutinizer05yeah, exactly19:23
DocScrutinizer05just that he not even said that19:23
whitequarklarsc: besides that, by joining freenode you agree for your IP to be shown to strangers. there is no countermeasure at all which could prevent showing your IP to strangers after you've agreed & effectively published it.19:24
whitequarkboth technical and social19:25
DocScrutinizer05that's so incredibly silly my head starts to hurt19:25
larscwhitequark: that's correct, still there is a moral imperative for the induvidual not do so19:26
DocScrutinizer05not to do WHAT??19:26
larscsave your private data19:26
DocScrutinizer05to publish announced chanlogs, with agreement of chanowner?19:27
DocScrutinizer05you suggest I should delete my chanlog because you post your password here?19:28
whitequarklarsc: moral views are subjective. that's why they are not laws.19:28
whitequarkin fact, I do not consider your IP to be private data because it's not, well, private.19:28
DocScrutinizer05and when you walk down the street naked, you will sue me for sexual harrassment when I look?19:29
whitequarkexactly because I have received it from a public source in the first place19:29
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: lol exactly19:29
larscDocScrutinizer05: since you don't know in advance that I will share my password with you, you should not have to delete you backlog19:29
urandom__if you tell something private to a group of people (irc channel) then it wouldt be nice if they don't tell it to strangers (not into the discussion just saying)19:29
whitequarkurandom__: yeah, and if this channel was private that would be true19:29
larscDocScrutinizer05: no I'll take a photo and post in on twitter ;)19:29
whitequarkurandom__: but you're sharing something with an _unbounded_ group of people19:30
whitequarkbecause anyone can join at any time19:30
DocScrutinizer05this is a PUBLIC channel though19:30
whitequarkurandom__: it's silly to expect the propagation of information through an unbounded group of people to be bounded.19:30
DocScrutinizer05and I'd even call it rogue to filter logs, form a very basic POV19:32
urandom__nah it is semi-public, the people here are not that random, though i agree that you cant expect but it would be nice of them19:32
whitequarkurandom__: you are random19:32
DocScrutinizer05and I'm absolutely shure you don't know me19:32
whitequarkI'm pretty sure about that :) and jokes aside, I hear from you here first time ever. therefore you are indeed random for me for all intents and purposes19:33
DocScrutinizer05but you had all chances to know infobot and his chanlog19:33
DocScrutinizer05and it's even in /topic that this chan is logged, it DOES NOT mention the logs are filtered to keep the log "private"19:34
viricreading the last 20 posts, I can't tell who favors what19:34
whitequarkviric: me and DocScrutinizer05 think that IPs are not private, kyak and larsc think they are. not sure about urandom__ .19:35
DocScrutinizer05I favour to leave this "discussion" alone, until some of you have thoroughly rethought their POV and expectations19:35
larscI favor the categorical imperative19:35
whitequarklarsc: what?19:35
DocScrutinizer05THOUGH SHALT NOT FAKE LOGS <- categoric imperative19:36
larscwhitequark: kant19:36
urandom__well i don't get why someone would need to log IPs for any good reason19:36
DocScrutinizer05I don't get why anybody would want them FILTERED for any good reason19:37
whitequarklarsc: I don't understand _why_ did you say that, not _what_ have you said19:37
DocScrutinizer05look on your screen and you see them logged19:37
whitequarkurandom__: I don't collect them in first place because they just look ugly. Otherwise, I don't see a reason to not collect them. I first had them included for the sake of completeness.19:37
larscwhitequark: I thought that's what the whole discussion was about19:37
whitequarklarsc: correct me if I'm wrong, but it was about logs and IPs and not philosophy.19:38
urandom__they have no use, some people are offended that they are locked, so solution just don't log them, really not a big thing, i think there are more intresting topics19:38
whitequarkurandom__: I would not go and fix my codebase because of a bogus concern which should not have arisen in first place19:39
DocScrutinizer05yeah, like some are offended by your posts, so better not show them. Problem solved19:39
whitequarkin fact, as I've already said, I am considering building a bot specifically for collecting and publishing IPs.19:39
virichm I'm more with whitequark, in the sense that if someone logged them and published them... well, it's a public channel. I don't think the published did anything wrong. If some people are upset about that, then it can be negotiated with two happy outputs: filter, or not publish anything at all, for the sake of keeping good relationships.19:40
urandom__well not loging IPs should be a 10 minute fix if you are slow19:40
viric(for next publications)19:40
larscwhitequark: for me it was19:40
viricurandom__: laziness plays a big role too19:40
whitequarkurandom__: DocScrutinizer05 does not control the infobot codebase, for example19:41
viricI understand that someone could prefer not to publish anything instead of filtering :)19:41
DocScrutinizer05urandom__: i'm not going to pester devels that for SURE have better things to do19:41
whitequarklarsc: ah ok, I see your point.19:41
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:28:52] <TimRiker> DocScrutinizer05, there have been a few channels where I created files with the name of the log directory. This effectively stops the cron job from exporting html logs for those channels.19:41
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:30:26] <TimRiker> I prefer not to have the bot in channels if they don't want them logged. if people are posting on public irc networks and expecting their data to be private in any way, they are in for sore disappointment. _anyone_ could be logging and reposting anything, anywhere.19:41
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:31:28] <TimRiker> if you don't want your IP shown, then get a cloak. that's what they are for. but remember that sometimes services are down, so even a cloak does not insure that your ip is private.19:41
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-15 19:32:19] <TimRiker> if you don't want your ip shown, don't use irc, or send email, or hit web sites, or use instant messaging, in short, get off the Internet.19:41
urandom__ah i see, well ok, so just make a note "warning your IPs are logged if you have concerns fuck off" or something19:43
DocScrutinizer05that's the genuine meaning of /topic >>logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs<<19:44
whitequarkurandom__: EVERYONE on the internet logs IPs19:44
whitequarkfrom google analytics to $websitename19:44
DocScrutinizer05even pastebin does ;-P19:44
DocScrutinizer05and nicely exposes them19:45
DocScrutinizer05now cya for good19:45
whitequarkin fact you can get millions of IPs together with sensitive data with a clever inurl: query19:45
whitequarkdue to known public analytics scripts19:45
whitequark(you might not have this ability right now because IIRC google has blocked this attack vector. you still can crawl the entire web manually for the same result. it's trivial.)19:46
DocScrutinizer05ps: in fact since I have "hide join/nick/quit msgs" on set my IRC client, I'm fscked as chanop when fighting spambots and no chanlog gives me IP of the bot19:47
DocScrutinizer05so WHY THE F**K filter/fake chanlogs, just because somebody thinks it's evil to show all that's already been shown?19:49
DocScrutinizer05(except for aesthetic resons)19:50
DocScrutinizer05I mean, there's probably a *reason* when freenode themselves decide to display IP in join-msgs19:50
DocScrutinizer05And I'm still not seeing a sound scenario for exploiting last week's IPs whatsoever19:52
DocScrutinizer05probably last week's newspaper is more 'private' and 'dangerous' than your last week's IP19:52
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