#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2012-10-13

DocScrutinizer05thanks00:14
mthDocScrutinizer05: light in the sense of simple or light in the sense of being able to service lots of requests on modest hardware?00:22
DocScrutinizer05aiui as in simple00:22
DocScrutinizer05or small00:22
DocScrutinizer05easy probably00:22
mtha friend of mine maintains this server: http://www.xs-httpd.org/00:23
mthand there is also a small http server included in python00:23
mthexample code using the python server: http://code.google.com/p/toys4droids/source/browse/easy_webserver.py00:23
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-13 00:22:50] <merlin1991> hm what's the quickest way to start a local http server for some time?00:23
wpwrakmaybe  /etc/init.d/httpd start; sleep SOME_TIME; /etc/init.d/httpd stop   ? :)00:27
wpwrakreplace "httpd" with whatever you fancy00:27
DocScrutinizer05loking at this eQ3 homematic CCU station, I feel like paying RMS a beer00:37
DocScrutinizer05looking*00:37
DocScrutinizer05one of those rogue companies who thing printing the GPL on last 2 pages of their user manual "booklet" is all it needs to abuse OSS00:39
DocScrutinizer05think* - damn typos00:39
rohDocScrutinizer05: homematic has gpl stuff in it?00:40
DocScrutinizer05on the CCU there's quite obviously a linux00:41
DocScrutinizer05all the way from ntpd to kernel00:42
DocScrutinizer05and I can't find the source anywhere00:42
DocScrutinizer05~ # uname -a00:45
DocScrutinizer05Linux homematic 2.6.21.3 #6 Thu May 31 12:51:30 CEST 2012 armv4tl unknown00:45
DocScrutinizer05BusyBox v1.00 (2012.05.14-12:29+0000) Built-in shell (ash)00:46
DocScrutinizer05crippled to death00:47
DocScrutinizer05~ # df -h00:47
DocScrutinizer05Filesystem                Size      Used Available Use% Mounted on00:47
DocScrutinizer05/dev/mtdblock2           32.0M     22.5M      9.5M  70% /00:47
DocScrutinizer05/dev/mtdblock3           32.0M      2.4M     29.6M   7% /usr/local00:48
DocScrutinizer05tempfs                   32.0M    576.0k     31.4M   2% /var00:48
DocScrutinizer05http://pastebin.com/yCUELZkV00:57
DocScrutinizer05roh: I know I'll get banned now for owning such a crappy device ;-P01:00
DocScrutinizer05esp for that hefty pricetag01:02
mthancient kernel as well01:04
DocScrutinizer05I even heard their glorified "bidCos[TM!1!!]" is not safe against replay attacks - something particularly nasty for a bidir protocol that could easily run proper challenge-response auth01:05
rohDocScrutinizer05: maybe send in a report to gpl-v ;)01:05
rohwhen you know a ticket# holler...01:05
DocScrutinizer05roh: well, I guess I first should write a "Einschreiben mit Rueckschein" to them, asking for source01:21
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://irclog.whitequark.org is updated instantly :)03:01
kyakDocScrutinizer06: could you make it so IP addresses are not logged?04:12
kyakDocScrutinizer06: generally, logging an irc channel and making it public without letting anyone know is not ethical (as in irc ethics)04:14
kyaki know it's logged by qi-hw and whitequark, and i know that these logs don't contain personal information04:14
qi-bot[commit] kyak: uboot-xburst: fix dl url, add md5sum (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/490004f07:26
DocScrutinizer06kyak: while I partially understand your concerns, I can't change anything with infobot's logging. Just like I can't change how qibot logs. Anyway rhe fact that this channel is logged actually _is_ announced in topic, I don't think we could or need to list every log or guarantee that certain info is _not_ logged. There are other ways on (freenode) IRC to take care about your privacy if you're concerned11:09
wpwrakit's an open channel and storage is cheap. i don't think there's any reason to assume it's not logged by NSA, KGB, and so on, quite independently from what qi-bot and friends do.12:01
DocScrutinizer06wpwrak: kyak is right about general freenode policy somewhat dicourrages chan logging, and requires announcing any logging. I'm not entirely in line with this sentiment, but will happily follow requirement for log-warning in chan topic. But that's it12:13
DocScrutinizer06since there are a lot of self-nominated 'services' that sneak in aribrary IRC channels with their bots, to log them publicly, and they do so without any announcement, I think the warning/info about QiBot logs in topic, plus naming infobot like that, plus making infobot standing out in chanuser list by giving it +v, plus ~logs, is just good enough for everybody. after all you're right that this is a public channel12:16
DocScrutinizer06obviously kyak knows how to hide his IP and take care about his privacy, as everybody can tell from /whois kyak. Those IRC users who care less about those things maybe don't need somebody to fight for their rights12:18
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: aiui those concerned about logging are so because of "google'ability" of what's been said and "done" in IRC channels. I have a hard time adopting this rationale.12:25
wpwrakin the end, it all gets lost in the noise13:02
wpwrakit's only a problem when there are very few people who get exposed that way. once a google search will find a bunch of atrocities for just anyone, it gets irrelevant13:03
valhallaotoh being able to google the actual ip history of somebody may be problematic (but then, if somebody is following you he might as well whois you)13:11
wpwrakwell, you may want to use an anonymizer when discussing the plans for overthrowing the government with your fellow conspirators. especially when approaching the implementation phase :)13:31
wpwrakthat's simpler than trying to stay 100% undercover. and also less suspicious :)13:32
wpwrakjust make sure the anonymizer is immune to traffic analysis13:32
kyaki think it was discussed already in this channel13:35
kyakand wolfgang even did some extra job to remove personal information from existing logs13:35
kyakDocScrutinizer05: you are saying you have no control over logs, but it's your bot and your responsibility13:36
DocScrutinizer05kyak: that's outright incorrect13:36
DocScrutinizer05it's neither my bot nor do I have any control whatsoever over logs it creates13:36
kyakyou said "I can't change anything with infobot's logging."13:36
kyakwhos bot is that?13:37
DocScrutinizer05[2012-10-13 15:37:15] [Whois] infobot ist ~infobot@rikers.org (TimRiker's infobot)13:37
kyakok, then i don't know what is the reason for this bot to be here13:37
DocScrutinizer05which is more in line with freenode's requirements about bots than what qi-bot announces13:38
-ChanServ:#qi-hardware- kyak set flags +b on apt.13:39
DocScrutinizer05kyak: the reason is that some chan users thought it's a good idea to have it here, mainly for its factoid database, and assumed chan owner appreciated it13:39
DocScrutinizer05dafaq!!!13:39
kyaki think the problem is solved now, thank you13:39
DocScrutinizer05kyak: that's extremely nasty13:39
kyakno need to discuss what's already been discussed and agreed13:40
Action: DocScrutinizer05 thinks kyak is rapidly approaching a state of insane rage, not appropriate for chanop13:40
kyakno, i'm actually pretty calm. Just taking care about our users13:41
wpwraki set infobot to ignore a long time ago and don't worry much about the logs. problem solves ;-)13:42
DocScrutinizer05banning a bot is not the suggested way to handle that stuff13:42
DocScrutinizer05I'm in control over join lists for bot, and it's absolutely incorrect to ban a bot without discussing it with bot owner and/or the chan owner which is wolfspraul in my book13:43
kyakthis is uncontrolled bot, it should not be here. I can't ask his owner to stop logging/or not to log IP's13:43
DocScrutinizer05bullshit13:43
DocScrutinizer05you're  spreading incorrect assumptions here13:43
Action: wpwrak brings a bundle of wood to the village square13:44
DocScrutinizer05you're about to go mad with cahnop tduties13:44
kyakwpwrak: for FBI/KGB.. they sure don't make their logs public13:46
kyaki log this channel, too (and probably with IPs). But don't make them searchable on google13:46
DocScrutinizer05so, where is the rule that suggests logging isn't supposed to log parts of the public info in a chan?13:47
DocScrutinizer05you made that up13:47
kyakit was agreed by users of this channel13:47
kyakand actions were taken not to log sensitive information13:47
DocScrutinizer05point me to the log saying so, please!13:48
wpwrakkyak: correction: they make those parts public that look good in show trials13:48
DocScrutinizer05timestamp just fine, since I also have private logs if the chan13:48
wpwrakkyak: their PR departements insist on that :)13:48
Action: wpwrak too13:49
wpwrak(logs)13:49
DocScrutinizer05btw wtf is the sensitivity of an IP?13:49
DocScrutinizer05when it's published every day in the chan anyway13:49
DocScrutinizer05if it changes over time, then the old info is useless and obsolete anyway and googling for it is nonsense. If it's a static IP, then nobody needs to google for it since everybody can get the info 'live' from IRC13:50
wpwrakif you choose a different persona on each site/environment/community you use, and your IP is relatively constant, then the IP could be used to reconstruct a larger part of your real identity13:50
wpwrakalso, if someone catches you doing something (e.g., file sharing) and all they have is your IP, then it may help them to identify you13:51
DocScrutinizer05it's not IRC's nor logging bots' responsibility to take care about *that* niche case13:51
kyakDocScrutinizer05: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2010-08-11.log.html#t11:1013:51
DocScrutinizer05if somebody does that, he's the only one responsible to hide his IP13:52
kyakwolfspraul: could you please step in?13:53
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: well, it's called "defense in depth". you try to make things hard for an attacker at every point of the way. this won't protect you against a sufficient determined and resourceful foe but it can at least make you a very unattractive target13:53
DocScrutinizer05kyak: i'll talk to Tim about disabling logging for #qi-hardware13:53
kyakDocScrutinizer05: thanks13:54
DocScrutinizer05np13:54
-ChanServ:#qi-hardware- kyak set flags -Vbv on apt.13:55
-ChanServ:#qi-hardware- kyak set flags +Vv on apt.13:56
whitequarkkyak: sorry, but you are insane.16:43
whitequarkif you think that IP logging is an issue with privacy, I would take care to add another bot, which would explicitly disclose IPs.16:43
whitequarkI've removed hostnames from my logs simply because they don't have any reason to stay there and distract attention from actual information.16:44
whitequarknote that in the case that I would actually write that another bot, no countermeasures except for closing channel for the general public, could impose any restrictions on it. this is the whole principle of public channels.16:45
whitequarktalking about this even further, the fact is that _freenode_ discloses IPs. There are plenty of irc servers around which don't.16:45
viricbut those who want to hide it at freenode, can ask for hiding16:48
whitequarkit's basically the same with saying things under your nickname16:48
whitequarkit's your name and your words. it is actually very good that they are connected. creates responsibility.16:49
whitequarkif you don't want your nickname to be associated with some words, don't use it16:49
whitequarkif you don't want your IP... hide it, it's never been easier.16:49
whitequarkviric: yeah, this is why I see nothing wrong with freenode.16:50
whitequarkyou could also set up rDNS for your IP, and then set up forward DNS for that record which won't match reverse one. just off my mind.16:51
viricif you don't mind about publishing the ip, it's even of help16:51
viricfor p2p things maybe16:52
viricdcc, ctcp, ...16:52
viricwhatever that is called16:52
whitequarkit won't work in case of NAT anyway16:56
viricwell16:56
viricnat can be clever16:56
viricnot for irc-on-ssl :)16:56
viricthough.16:56
whitequarkit's generally stupid :) and I don't know anyone using those features anyway16:56
viricbecause file transfer between people has always been a nightmare16:58
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