#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2012-09-23

viricdamn, this sheevapug tells me that reading /dev/mem is an operation not permitted11:51
viricah only the specific register offset.11:52
viricwpwrak: that's why you wrote once a program that mmaps and reads or modifies a register, isn't it? mmap may work11:52
Fallenouyou can mmap() /dev/mem 11:56
FallenouI think that's the way it's supposed to be used11:56
alexanderAnyone tried out http://delysid.org/tuneit.html ?11:57
viricFallenou: ok12:57
wpwrakviric: my program uses mmap, yes. it's here: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/poke/13:50
wpwrakand i have at ton more programs that do similar things. some are in the ben-blinkenlights project13:51
viric:) ok13:53
viricI was just trying to find accessible gpìo in the sheevaplug schematics, playing with some 'efuse' things there...13:55
viricwhat do you think of the sheevaplug initiative by globalscale, with open source, schematics, bom, layouts, cam files...13:56
viricdo you find the marvell pieces too hidden?13:56
wpwrakoh, no idea. haven't paid much attention to the sheevaplug.13:57
wpwrakif they publish all that, then it would certainly sounds a like a good thing13:58
viricah ok13:58
viricthey did, and since years ago13:58
viricI'm using the sheevaplug since long13:58
viric^that's for the one I own13:59
viricwpwrak: if you ever need a low power server, you could support them by buying one :) 13:59
viricI'd like to know how many blobs they have around14:00
viricmh their wifi seems to have blobs: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/libertas      (same as OLPC)14:02
wpwrakfor "low-power servers", i have a bunch of linksys wireless routers :) and most of the wallwart-type devices probably don't have the right plug for argentina (or australia) anyway. the sheevaplug is among them.14:06
viricah well14:06
viricthe sheevaplug has 512MB of flash and 512MB of RAM14:06
viricand 1.2GHz. That bands out all linksys routers14:07
wpwraki do use the ben a lot, though. with the 8:10 card slot, it's perfect for talking to DIY electronics :)14:07
viricsure; the sheevaplug isn't that good for electronics; I can't find a single gpio pin with a connector.14:07
viricAnd the sheevaplug is sold with 3 power connectors (european, US, and british)14:08
wpwrakneither of which looks even remotely like ar/au :)14:09
viricthe 'sheevaplug' side is a usual connector14:10
rohviric: they also die faster than any router14:10
viricroh: bah, the stupid power supply. But you can replace it with a $6  external supply, 5A 3A.14:10
viric5V 3A14:10
wpwrakviric: ah, okay. so one could use a cable. or, with luck, find a fitting adapter14:11
rohviric: well.. rather buy hardware with no broken psu and heat concept.14:11
viricroh: they overheat only at 220V iirc14:11
viricI think 120V countries are happy :)14:11
rohstill fail.14:12
viricwhat still fails?14:12
rohno. i meant its a fail.14:12
rohbroken design.14:12
viricah yes14:12
viricbut you can open and fix it.14:12
viricalso the nanonote has a bad speaker volume.14:13
rohand since i know that also the psu of other devices die over time... i'd rather use one with either a proper one or no internal one. especially if i want to leave them unattended14:13
viricit's very easy to remove the internal power supply14:14
viricWhat was available at the time of the sheevaplug appearance, that could perform similarly?14:15
viricThe plug had big advantages about many devices of its time14:15
rohactually i dont like the case at all.14:16
rohespecially since i do not want mechanical strain on power sockets. a psu which is directly on the plug is seldomly a good idea14:16
viricIt comes with both a direct wall-plug connector, and with a cable.14:17
viric(in the package)14:17
viricbut I see you have a personal trouble with it. I won't insist. :)14:18
rohyes. its just a very bad design. without a proper usecase which it can do really good.14:20
viricI know three people who own them, people who don't deal with embedded devices usually, and they are very happy with it as a home usual linux server, where they deploy their public services14:20
rohif you use its cpu, it gets really hot and dies. if you want stability.. its no good because of the overheating psu again.. it has a harddisk-connector, but no space for a harddisk..  its completely not-thought-through in my opinion14:21
viricPeople who have not bought any other open hw14:21
viricI use the cpu14:21
rohand with its flaws it should simply not be built till they are fixed (atleast the heat and reliability issues)14:21
viricThe psu I have replaced. Mine builds a lot, like a build farm, cpu 100% often14:21
viricI mean... 90% of the day at 100% cpu14:22
viricall with a usb hd. All fine. Some of my friends use it with a SD card.14:22
GNUtoo-desktophi, what about the dreamplug?14:22
viricGNUtoo-desktop: I find it expensive.14:22
viricAnd provides little over the sheevaplug, for my taste14:22
GNUtoo-desktopok, can it do hostapd?14:23
viricI think so14:23
viricit has the same wifi board as the olpc14:23
GNUtoo-desktopok so it's libertas14:24
GNUtoo-desktopI was unsure about that14:24
GNUtoo-desktopthen if I buy one I backport libertas_tf_sdio and it would work14:24
virichm in fact I talk about the guruplug wifi card. I expect the dreamplug has the same.14:24
GNUtoo-desktopah ok14:24
viricGNUtoo-desktop: I'm not sure it's _sdio, or _usb.14:24
GNUtoo-desktopI need to verify that's it's compatible with libertas_tf_sdio14:24
GNUtoo-desktopwhich is not in mainline14:24
GNUtoo-desktopbut for instance there are newer drivers for marvell14:25
GNUtoo-desktopthat probably lacks AP14:25
viricyou seem to know better than I :)14:25
GNUtoo-desktopyes but I'm unsure if they changed the wifi chip at some point or exactly what chip it is14:26
GNUtoo-desktopbasically if it works with libertas_sdio it works with libertas_tf_sdio14:27
GNUtoo-desktopbut only libertas_tf_sdio provides AP14:27
GNUtoo-desktopand the tf_sdio version is not in mainline14:27
viricsomehow I think it'll be _usb14:27
rohwell.. its seems i should stay with different hw for what i need in services at home.14:31
viricGNUtoo-desktop: the little references I find, indicate that people configure the kernels as guruplug14:32
GNUtoo-desktopok let me look....14:36
viricGNUtoo-desktop: http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/guru-plug/kernel/uImage-guruplug.config   guruplug is libertas_sdio14:36
GNUtoo-desktopah they use devicetree14:37
GNUtoo-desktopI was looking in mainline14:37
GNUtoo-desktopas you probably know arch/arm/config doesn't scale14:37
GNUtoo-desktopso they came up with a new system to replace the board init c files14:37
GNUtoo-desktopit's called devicetree14:37
GNUtoo-desktops/new/I mean that using device tree for arm is new, not that device tree is new14:38
GNUtoo-desktopI said wrong stuff14:39
GNUtoo-desktopI meant it's to replace C files like board-kirkwood.c14:39
GNUtoo-desktopnot the config14:39
viricis it upstream?14:39
viricsince when?14:39
GNUtoo-desktopsince recently14:40
GNUtoo-desktopgit log and see14:40
viricah ok14:40
viricI wasn't aware.14:41
GNUtoo-desktopsince june 2011 in fact14:42
viricI never understood much about initializing complex boards14:43
GNUtoo-desktopI did board init already14:43
GNUtoo-desktopbut not from scratch14:44
GNUtoo-desktopbasically I took old code and ported it to mainline14:44
GNUtoo-desktopand also did device tree for the same device14:44
GNUtoo-desktopbasically I had to md the memory reagion of the printk buffer to see logs in uboot14:45
GNUtoo-desktopbtw what else could replace a dreamplug?14:46
GNUtoo-desktopit needs to be compact....14:46
GNUtoo-desktopis there any compact x86 with PCI?14:46
viricah nice.14:46
GNUtoo-desktopmaybe I should look in coreboot-supported boards14:47
viricthere are pico-itx atom boards and so14:47
viricbut I know very little about these things :)14:47
viricpci, to hold any pci card?14:48
GNUtoo-desktopI prefer ath9k chips14:48
viricah, can be that minipci of laptops and so14:48
virica simple search pointed me to  http://www.portwell.com/products/detail.asp?CUSTCHAR1=NANO-804414:49
GNUtoo-desktopyes at think penguin they sell ath9k minipci14:51
GNUtoo-desktopI guess it uses a BIOS tough14:51
GNUtoo-desktopI try to avoid that if possible14:52
viricx86 board without bios?14:53
viricthat won't be very popular :)14:53
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: what do you want PCI for?14:53
GNUtoo-desktopwifi ath9k card14:54
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: I think we use miniPCIe14:55
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: with http://www.pcengines.ch/alix6b2.htm14:55
lindi-hmm, not that exact model I think14:55
GNUtoo-desktopis that compatible with v4?14:55
GNUtoo-desktopviric, chromebook have no BIOS either14:56
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: v4?14:56
GNUtoo-desktopit's compatible with v3 at least?14:56
lindi-that's some PCIe version number?14:56
GNUtoo-desktopcoreboot v414:56
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: ah, no idea14:56
GNUtoo-desktopI've already a coreboot desktop btw14:56
GNUtoo-desktopI had a coreboot laptop until I rebooted also14:57
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: did you need to buy some server motherboard?14:57
GNUtoo-desktoplindi-, no, I did the port on my desktop14:57
GNUtoo-desktopfor the laptop I'm waiting for the pomona clips for recovering it14:58
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: hmm, that sounds potentially buggy :)14:58
GNUtoo-desktop(I was told I could reboot after bucts 0 which wasn't true)14:58
GNUtoo-desktopwhat would be potentially buggy?14:58
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: being one of the first users of coreboot on that hardware14:58
GNUtoo-desktopah ok14:59
GNUtoo-desktopI dreamed of having coreboot hardware for years.....14:59
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: do you have vendor and product name from DMI?14:59
GNUtoo-desktopthen I found that m4a785-m was supported15:00
GNUtoo-desktopand I had m4a785-t-m15:00
lindi-cat /sys/class/dmi/id/product_name15:00
GNUtoo-desktopso I did the port15:00
lindi-hmm, smolts.org is down today :(15:00
GNUtoo-desktopVendor: coreboot15:01
GNUtoo-desktopfrom dmidecode15:01
GNUtoo-desktopI've still some stuff to fix but I'm mostly happy15:01
lindi-sounds promising then15:02
GNUtoo-desktoplike x86_64 usb init issues => I use x86_not-6415:02
lindi-last time I looked there wasn't anything easily available that'd be well supported15:02
GNUtoo-desktopand I also use the internal graphic card15:02
GNUtoo-desktophowever I've 4G of ram.....15:02
GNUtoo-desktopwe fixed that15:02
GNUtoo-desktopand it was hard....15:02
GNUtoo-desktopand graphics works flawlessly15:03
GNUtoo-desktopbasically what doesn't work is suff that I didn't use or worked arround15:03
GNUtoo-desktopI should update and says that 4G works15:04
GNUtoo-desktopand put a new hash15:04
lindi-even 4 GB is not that much nowadays15:04
lindi-but it's still enough for most stuff of course15:05
GNUtoo-desktop4G is enough for me for now15:06
GNUtoo-desktoplinking webkit uses swap tough15:06
viricwith gold?15:06
lindi-a few virtual machines and it starts to feel really tiny15:06
GNUtoo-desktopvm are for servers tough15:08
GNUtoo-desktopI use coreboot on my desktop15:09
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: yeah unless you use qubes on  your desktop :)15:09
GNUtoo-desktoplol ok15:09
GNUtoo-desktopI don't need to isolate  proprietary stuff anyway15:10
Guest65339What is the status of QEMU for the NN? The link in the mailing list is dead.15:10
GNUtoo-desktopsince I don't use any(apart the CPU microcode and the VGA option rom)15:10
GNUtoo-desktopI'm not even sure if I use the microcode or not15:10
lindi-GNUtoo-desktop: qubes is for much more than just isolating non-free stuff15:10
viricdo you use serial ports in the PC much?15:15
viricI somehow think that the uart driver is broken in recent kernels15:16
viricwith stty, I end up often with I/O Error on /dev/ttyS=15:16
viricfixed only if I reboot15:16
GNUtoo-desktopviric, what computer?15:16
virica PC15:16
viricIt happened to me in two computers. A pentium IV and a phenom II15:16
GNUtoo-desktopbecause I've no issues at all with my m4a785-t-m reguarding serial15:16
GNUtoo-desktopI run that kernel:15:17
viric3.4 and 3.5 kernels15:17
GNUtoo-desktopLinux gnutoo-desktop 3.0.0-24-generic-pae #5trisquel1 SMP Sun Aug 12 12:48:43 UTC 2012 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux15:17
GNUtoo-desktopah ok15:17
viricbut I simply didn't play much with the serial between 2.6.30 and 3.015:17
viricso I can't tell.15:17
GNUtoo-desktopI use the serial for doing coreboot developement so I know it works for me15:18
viric'i686 athlon i386' ? :)15:18
GNUtoo-desktopmodel name: AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 250 Processor15:18
viricyou use it from linux userspace? What's at the other end?15:18
GNUtoo-desktopwhat do you mean?15:19
GNUtoo-desktopthe other computer15:19
GNUtoo-desktopwhatever silent laptop running trisquel too15:19
GNUtoo-desktopwith big enough screen preferably15:19
GNUtoo-desktopusing picocom15:19
viricI don't know; with usb serial adapters, I never get I/O error15:19
viricbut with the mainboard serial, I do.15:19
GNUtoo-desktopI've coreboot<->laptop with laptop beeing usb-serial15:19
diginetso I was thinking, what would it take to create a truly open workstation, that was at least on par with something, from say, early to mid 2000s (so at least usable today)20:19
diginetYou could start with OpenSPARC or LEON, the OpenGraphics OGC1, wishbone bus, the various peripherals on open cores for ethernet and USB.20:20
diginetyou'd probably need something for sound, there's an opencores clones of a TI DSP that could work20:20
diginetI realise this would be by no means easy, but aside from the cost of manufacturing the boards and sourcing the ASICs, how feasible would it be to realize this?20:21
viricby who?20:21
viricor you mean, how feasible is it, to find someone to do all this?20:21
diginetI dunno, a hobbyist20:21
viriclekernel: 20:22
viriclekernel can answer better20:22
diginetWhat I mean is, based on what we have, how possible would it be for a small team to put something together?20:22
viricdepends a lot on the small team20:22
diginetI just mean the design, not negotiating the manufacture or whatever20:22
diginet5 or so people with a good knowledge of HDL and hardware20:23
viricI'm trolling a bit, but sometimes it matters more to find the people who are ready to do something.20:23
lekerneldiginet: rather start with LM32 (best performance/area of all open source CPUs) and the milkymist tmu (which has a lot of advance on the opengraphics fpga design)20:23
lekerneldiginet: but anyway, if technical problems don't kill you, marketing will20:23
diginetlekernel: yeah, I know20:23
diginetlekernel, assuming the the TMU were put into custom silicon, how could it compare, with say, the a graphics chip in smartphones these days? It isn't 3D is it?20:24
viricluckily there is a number of freedom-fans with money.20:24
lekerneldiginet: and don't count on the hacker/maker community, all they understand is arduino makerbot and raspberry pi20:24
diginetlekernel: don't get me started on arduino and makerbot20:24
viriclekernel: haha20:24
diginetMakerbot is made up of a bunch of panhandling charlatans20:25
diginetI guess I'm missing something, but outside of the context of their original purpose, I don't see the value in making plastic pieces of junk20:25
lekerneldiginet: it's not 3d, no, and several other features are missing. I don't know how the performance compares.20:25
whitequarklekernel: IMO the "maker community" is acceptable for poplism, obviously not for real work20:25
Fallenoulekernel: don't be negative like that :/20:26
diginetlekernel: the OGC1 has 3D, that's why I suggested it20:26
diginetdoes the LM32 really beat out Leon though?20:26
whitequarklekernel: i.e. show arduino to 10k people, 3 of them will maybe become good EEs. not sure if it works like that, through.20:26
diginetwhat is the predicted clock speed for, say, a 90nm ASIC20:26
Fallenouwell there is no LM32 asic yet20:27
lekerneldiginet: last time I checked... they only *claimed* to have 3D. and only a basic framebuffer worked ...20:27
diginetI know20:27
Fallenoubut there is LEON asic 20:27
viricwhen I checked OGC1, it was all very preliminar.20:27
diginetwhitequark: I hate how people think arduino is a replacement for an MCU, I see people using it in the most asinine scenarios20:27
diginetviric: you could be right20:27
lekerneldiginet: yes, LM32 has more performance/LUT than LEON in FPGAs20:27
whitequarkdiginet: I'd rather say they think it's the only MCU in the world, but yes20:28
diginetI know nothing of the architecture, is it fairly standard RISC?20:28
lekernelyes, it's a very straightforward RISC20:28
diginetwhitequark: I literally saw a guy who used 6 arduinos to blink an array of LEDs20:28
whitequarkdiginet: yeah, happens all the time20:28
whitequarkwell, it's described on its website as a tool for artists20:29
diginetthe douche is strong with this one20:29
whitequarki.e. non-techie people. I think it perfectly fits its goal.20:29
whitequarkan artist doesn't, won't and shouldn't care about the MCUs or whatnot20:29
lekernelre. LEON they might release an optimized version in the next years. might compete with or beat LM32... but it's not out yet.20:29
diginetI'm just sick of the attention whores who derail actual discussion20:29
whitequarklekernel: LM32 is used in M1 right?20:29
diginetwhat is the clock speed on the M1?20:29
diginetis LM32 competitive with ARM in terms of MIPS/Mhz?20:30
lekernelI think so20:30
lekernelat least with ARM7... of course the superscalar cores are faster20:31
diginetLM32 isn't superscalar?20:31
lekernelno, it's a regular 6-stage pipelined RISC20:31
diginetwhat about OpenSPARC T2?20:31
lekernelopensparc is super large20:31
lekerneliirc it's not superscalar either20:32
diginetto be fair a lot of that is all the crypto stuff20:32
lekernelbut you need a $500+ FPGA to use it20:32
diginetat the same mhz, how would a T2 core compare to a cortex-A920:33
lindi-MHz please :)20:33
lindi-and it's frequency20:33
Fallenouare you really considering building an ASIC ?20:34
Fallenoudo you have the money  for this ?20:34
diginetno, I'm just thinking about it20:34
lekerneldunno... check http://www.spec.org/ http://www.eecs.umich.edu/mibench/20:34
diginetor pondering20:34
diginetI'm just weird, I like to think about hypothetical projects20:35
viricfor possible funding? :)20:35
lekernelwith the right connections in research/academia, you can get ASICs done for free...20:36
Fallenoudescribe your project and put it on kickstarter ;)20:36
lekernelbut why would anyone do something like that? there are LEON ASICs, free hardware, and no one gives a crap outside the aerospace industry20:37
diginetI hate kickstarter though20:37
Fallenouyes I would say use LEON asic20:38
Fallenouit's already made20:38
diginetviric, no I'm not talking about this with the intent of making it, I just think its interesting20:38
diginetyeah, but it's slow20:38
diginetand probably inordinately expensive for what you get20:38
Fallenouyou can have 200 MHz LM32 on Kintex 7 :p20:38
diginetLeonV4 is supposed to go up to 1500mhz at 90nm'20:38
diginetFallenou: hey, not bad!20:39
Guest65339rhombus-tech maybe in the future they can fund something?20:39
diginetif I had unlimited funds, my dream would be something like the openpandora or clamshell zaurus, in terms of form factor, but with totally free hardware inside20:41
lekernelkickstarter is hardcore liberalism. and it makes one thing clear: this approach doesn't encourage great open technology. e.g. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joylabs/makey-makey-an-invention-kit-for-everyone vs. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1091976372/open-source-5-axis-cnc-router-and-plasma-machine-p20:41
viriclekernel: yep.20:42
diginetI just hate it because of all the stupid hipsters on there20:42
diginetand idiots in general20:42
diginetsomething which isn't easily digestible by people who know nothing about electronics will never be funded20:43
viriclekernel: the bananas keyboard example can make any engineer with helpful projects sad.20:43
diginetthus why the particularly egregious space elevator project got half a million in funding20:43
diginetpeople are interested in nonsense like that Ouya thing20:44
diginetor uninteresting raspberry pi esque stupidity20:44
diginetplus, I just don't like the panhandling nature of it20:45
FallenouI knew I would start yet another kickstarter troll :p20:45
Fallenousorry for the topic switch20:45
diginetsorry, sorry, I just hate it20:47
diginetanyway, the problem with stuff that's even nominally "open" like the Pandora are the lack of drivers for half the stuff in the OMAP20:47
diginetlike the DSPs and HW acceleration20:47
diginetif they exist, they're horribly buggy binary blobs20:48
viricMaybe there could be some committee ceryifying openness20:48
Fallenouforget about omap, there is nothing open inside20:48
viricLike there is for "ecological agriculture", or "fair trade"20:48
lekernelouya is just a game in personal connections20:49
diginetthe thing that bothers me though is this, there are companies which make chips that are well documented, but what happens when they stop manufacturing them? You can't source your own. 20:49
digineteven though it's expensive, if gaisler went out of business, if I had to, I could acquire a LEON asic20:49
diginetby sourcing my own20:49
viricBut even some people don't consider FSF any good about software/hardware freedom20:50
diginetrms isn't a fan of OHW last time I checked20:50
diginetthen again, I'm not a fan of him20:50
viricAnd the licences?20:50
diginetmy favourite is zlib20:50
diginetthe problem is, FOSS is all for naught if you have no control over the hardware it runs on20:51
viricrms was using one of those fuloong computers20:51
viricjust for the bios, iirc20:51
diginethe's a nut20:51
diginethe stopped using the OLPC because the organization looked at Windows20:52
diginetyes, just because they looked20:52
diginetI like the idea of free software, but I hate his politics20:52
viricwell, FSF is one thing, he is another20:52
diginetI prefer my own term: public source software20:52
diginetanyway, to me the major difficulty is how to design a GPU that isn't worthless20:53
diginetone idea I had was to scrap the idea of a dedicated GPU altogether, and include a more general vector coprocessor20:54
diginetthe design could be based on the Crays20:54
diginet(if one needed inspiration)20:54
lekerneldiginet: use migen flow :)20:55
diginetmigen flow?20:57
whitequarkdiginet: I think you might have some success cloning Mali-40020:57
whitequarkfrom what I know it's a decent GPU, simple and powerful20:57
diginetwouldn't I be violating patents or something?20:58
lekernelhttp://milkymist.org/3/migen.html - but I must say, it's still quite early, and you need some design experience to be really productive with it20:58
whitequarkfrom the architectural point of view, not precise implementation20:58
whitequarkI bet you'll violate some of the patents even if you'll make a clean-room design20:58
lekernelbut it is/will be the best tool I can think of to design a GPU20:58
diginetgoing backwards somewhat, another idea I've had, that is much less absurd, is designing a sort of ultimate 2D game console20:59
diginetI've looked at things to do homebrew for, SNES, GBA, Neo Geo, but they're all lacking in some way or another, not the least being finite supply of hardware21:00
digineti.e. something at parity with the Sega Saturn (albeit, minus the tacked on 3D stuff which I don't care about)21:02
diginetI imagine something which meets those requirements would be a whole lot cheaper to source21:03
diginetand probably less delusional than besting modern smartphones21:04
diginetand by probbably I mean completely21:04
diginetyeah, I've heard of that21:04
diginetsomething like that but better21:04
Guest65339floss is stage one. stage 2 is copyleft hardware.21:38
Guest65339I hate how people murder others for no good reason (for example: there evil bleeps). Just like school... :(21:41
Guest65339Name a 100% free software laptop. there was AI touchbook if you replace the wifi and software. Thats dead now. The next best hope is Rhombus-tech.21:43
Guest65339Rhombus-tech is your best bet for a copyleft hardware computer. other than qi hardware.21:46
lindi-Guest65339: murder?21:48
Guest65339not literately21:49
Guest65339metaphor maybe? need to look up the word metaphor21:50
lekernelGuest65339: OSHW will never work as long as only simple projects that non-engineers can grasp are fashionable21:50
Guest65339Did you look at Rhombus-tech?21:51
lekernelwhere are the schematics? verilog source of the chip?21:52
Guest65339the first card is arm allwinner a10. Future ones are what you want them to be. They are looking into opencores.21:53
lekernelno one wants them to use open cores. it's strange and usually slow.21:55
Guest65339they were quite interested in the biz and in talks.21:56
Guest65339I am not engineer and I don't see my self doing anything complex. I am willing to lean. I read your moans and improve myself based on them.21:57
Guest65339...but I understand what you mean.21:58
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