| wolfspra1l | programming question: any downside to using designated c99-style initializers to initialize union members? | 02:35 |
|---|---|---|
| wolfspra1l | I haven't done that before but c99 feels kinda stable and well supported now, no? | 02:35 |
| wolfspra1l | unless I find a reason not to, I'll go ahead with .xxx = ... | 02:35 |
| whitequark | there was some really weird incompatibility with some software | 03:37 |
| whitequark | but if you stick to gcc/clang it should be fine | 03:37 |
| whitequark | hm | 03:38 |
| whitequark | I think that was armcc... not sure actually | 03:38 |
| wpwrak | wolfspra1l: hmm, when you take something to FCC approval checking, how does that work ? let's say a simple circuit without radio. i.e., how "finished" does the device have to be ? and do you send the device to the test lab when it has reached that state of maturity or do you send them development prototypes to accelerate the process ? | 07:56 |
| LunaVorax | Hello! | 09:44 |
| wolfspra1l | testing, hmm | 10:39 |
| wolfspra1l | wpwrak: that's a long story :-) | 10:40 |
| wolfspra1l | the FCC works with approved labs | 10:40 |
| wolfspra1l | so for authentic fcc testing, you need to work with an approved lab | 10:40 |
| wolfspra1l | there may well be one in Buenos Aires, I don't know. or maybe not. in China they are everywhere (the real ones, in addition to a flood of fake ones) | 10:40 |
| wolfspra1l | mostly those labs (=companies) are offering all sorts of engineering and consulting services, so what you use them for is really your own decision | 10:41 |
| wolfspra1l | they love to sell you as much as possible, naturally | 10:41 |
| wolfspra1l | once you passed the testing, you can still make modifications to your design or production process, but at which point exactly this falls out of the first testing then and a re-testing is necessary is a grey area and comes down to your own understanding of quality, at some point | 10:42 |
| wolfspra1l | some people are just letting whatever 'brick' pass the testing, and sell something entirely differently | 10:42 |
| wolfspra1l | and nobody will ever check or care | 10:42 |
| wolfspra1l | I've seen cases where people starting selling a product that was totally different under the name of an old one because "renaming is expensive" | 10:43 |
| wolfspra1l | other take the testing more serious, and once they make a change (in design, production process or sw) that they think might affect the test result, they will voluntarily resubmit and want to work toward a better product anyway | 10:44 |
| wolfspra1l | the external engineering is not too different from any in-house engineering anyway, since a normal company will pay their employees, they may as well pay an outside service provider | 10:44 |
| wolfspra1l | I think the category you are looking at is 'unintentional radiator' | 10:45 |
| wolfspra1l | you should be able to get a certification for about 1000 USD or so, and yes it really only makes sense with case imho | 10:45 |
| wolfspra1l | that's about it :-) | 10:45 |
| wpwrak | (long story) yeah :) at OM, i got to see the tips of that iceberg, but never had the entire picture. | 13:09 |
| wpwrak | (unintentional radiator) yup :) | 13:09 |
| wpwrak | so for a completely new design, perhaps it would make sense to have an early prototype "pre-certified" to make sure it doesn't have major issues. USD 1k isn't all that bad anyway. | 13:11 |
| wpwrak | how much time does such a certification (or attempt) usually take, from sending the device until the result is known ? i think there's an extra delay until the actual certificate is issued, isn't there ? | 13:16 |
| wolfspra1l | calling it a day, but quick... it mostly comes down to getting an 'appointment'/free time for their lab | 13:36 |
| wolfspra1l | which can be anywhere from a few days later if they are not very busy to a month later in high season | 13:37 |
| wolfspra1l | I think if it's a lab you never worked with before, it will be difficult to arrange it all remotely, too many communication issues | 13:37 |
| wpwrak | ah yes, better to avoid the pre-xmas rush :) | 13:37 |
| wolfspra1l | the key is to find a friendly small lab that is officially certified as a FCC lab and then start working with them | 13:37 |
| wolfspra1l | yes but the xmas rush may be around now actually :-) | 13:38 |
| wpwrak | i suppose you know such (a) lab(s) ? | 13:38 |
| wolfspra1l | last time I worked with one in nanjing, the docs are uploaded somewhere, which I can locate tomorrow | 13:38 |
| wpwrak | (xmas) hmm. people have too much money. they should spend it only once per year :) | 13:38 |
| wolfspra1l | but I do think you should first look locally, ideally even in buenos aires | 13:38 |
| wolfspra1l | well the factories are in xmas season now, more or less | 13:39 |
| wolfspra1l | and the cert is always last minute... | 13:39 |
| wolfspra1l | but I haven't worked with labs in a while, not really up to date now | 13:39 |
| wolfspra1l | an unintentional radiator will not get an FCC ID | 13:39 |
| wolfspra1l | so I think you can keep this all very low key | 13:40 |
| wolfspra1l | in fact most people would not bother at all... | 13:40 |
| wolfspra1l | definitely not on the hobbyist or even other 'open hardware' products without naming them now (or pointing fingers...) | 13:40 |
| wolfspra1l | it's more 'in style' to not be certified :-) | 13:40 |
| wolfspra1l | especially for unintentional radiators (the others most people in that scene wouldn't touch anyway) | 13:41 |
| wolfspra1l | why do you think it might radiate at all? | 13:41 |
| wolfspra1l | you worry too much :-) | 13:42 |
| wolfspra1l | unfortunately I heard horror stories about FCC labs in Europe asking for 25k usd upfront etc. | 13:42 |
| wolfspra1l | that is quite possible, given that they want to keep the whole flood of hobbyist/garage projects away that would never turn into good customers anyway | 13:42 |
| wolfspra1l | in China the volume is so big in all this, and there are so many (real and fake) labs, they take the small fish as well | 13:43 |
| wpwrak | oh, anything can radiate :) all it takes is switching a few signals quickly enough ... (i think the limits go down to pretty low frequencies) | 13:43 |
| wolfspra1l | sure I know, but still. I just try to put it into perspective. | 13:43 |
| wolfspra1l | that's why it's called 'unintentional radiator' | 13:44 |
| wpwrak | i suspect that, if i find anything here, it'll be prohibitively priced | 13:44 |
| wolfspra1l | theoretically I would assume mostly everything radiates, at whatever frequency etc. but does it matter? who cares? etc. | 13:44 |
| wolfspra1l | possible, yes | 13:45 |
| wolfspra1l | but it will be hard to remote-work with a chinese lab especially first-time | 13:45 |
| wpwrak | yeha, one would need an EE on the ground to act as interface | 13:45 |
| wpwrak | it's basically a form of poverty tax: with proper equipment and a bit of time to learn the rules, one could do all these tests by oneself. that way, there wouldn't be surprises from the certification lab. | 13:47 |
| wolfspra1l | maybe you do check, I think on the fcc website they have a list of their certified labs somewhere | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | hundreds I think, or more | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | but again, maybe you don't need all this, really | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | you would not get an FCC ID anyway | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | so you only get some paperwork that shows that your device meets the requirements for unintentional radiators | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | even when importing into the US, there are a number of exceptiosn (aside from just incorrect paperwork which many do as well) to get devices without FCC whatever into the country | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | just read what sparkfun and friends write about those little nasty paper-whatever :-) | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | for unintentional radiators, I think you are trying to be too perfect | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | really | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | people build multi-million USD business with intentional radiators and won't spend a penny (or second) on any of this | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | businesses | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | k getting crazy tired here, backlog tomorrow | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | I will find my old cert paperwork for the ben (which is uploaded somewhere), and also a list of labs maybe | 13:48 |
| wolfspra1l | but tomorrow... | 13:49 |
| wolfspra1l | n8 | 13:49 |
| wpwrak | thanks ! sweet dreams ! :) | 13:49 |
| wpwrak | funny. fcc.gov has a bad certificate ;-) | 13:50 |
| wpwrak | this seems to be the place with the "known" labs: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm | 14:00 |
| wpwrak | but there's not a single one in the whole region. not even in brazil or mexico. so this is of limited use. | 14:01 |
| wpwrak | may well be that everything that gets fcc-certified around here just gets sent to some lab in the US, maybe with a friendly interface person who speaks fluent spanish and/or portugese :) | 14:02 |
| larsc | ust as a side note, the ben cert paperwork is here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/certification/2009_09_30_final/ | 14:19 |
| wpwrak | thanks ! | 14:22 |
| qi-bot | The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120818-1408 | 16:26 |
| paul_boddie | OpenWrt really doesn't seem to like Qt and Gtk+ these days. | 16:28 |
| paul_boddie | Anyone here have any eglibc experience? I'm trying to figure out the real cause of "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work". I think Ubuntu switched to eglibc and now there are thousands of upset people on the Internet. | 16:32 |
| --- Mon Aug 20 2012 | 00:00 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!